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story category iPhone Actually Hurting AT&T Customer Satisfaction
As new customers realize the network can't handle the device...
(old news - 08:31AM Wednesday Sep 30 2009)
tags: business · alternatives · consumers · wireless
A research firm called the CFI Group has released a new Smartphone Satisfaction Survey that claims the iPhone isn't helping AT&T when it comes to customer service. The group finds no correlation between customer satisfaction with their smart phone and their satisfaction with their carriers, finding that the iPhone ranked tops for satisfaction (83 out of 100) out of all smartphones, while AT&T ranked last in customer satisfaction among all wireless carriers. Raise your hand if you're particularly surprised?

Not only is the iPhone not helping, but it may be hurting. As customers who switch to AT&T to get the iPhone experience the company's well-discussed congestion and connectivity problems, they're dragging down AT&T's overall score. In fact, the CFI Group says that customers who switched to AT&T to get the iPhone ranked AT&T lower (64) than those who were already with the carrier (72). As we've noted though, despite AT&T's problems, the carrier has the lowest "churn" (customer defection) rate in the industry.

AT&T subsequently locks these disgruntled customers into long term contracts with early termination fees, allowing AT&T executives to delude themselves into thinking customers are sticking around because they're happy. Brand loyalty and exclusive contracts also play a role; loyal Apple customers stick with AT&T because they have no choice, which in essence is rewarding AT&T for poor customer service and network performance.

Meanwhile Verizon, which had the highest customer service score (79), has its own problems. While 86% of the survey's smartphone users said Verizon was their "ideal carrier," only 38% of Verizon smartphone customers say their current phone is their ideal smartphone. That's the lowest percentage of any provider, and reflects criticism in recent weeks that Verizon fails to offer particularly compelling smartphones. Of course while AT&T's problem might make Verizon seem like the ideal carrier, Verizon might have struggled with iPhone capacity demand as well.

"The iPhone has been a cash cow for AT&T, but that cash comes at a cost in terms of overall satisfaction. In effect, switchers can be satisfaction saboteurs if they were not already inclined to choose AT&T," said CFI's Doug Helmreich. "As for Verizon, the scales may tip if customers continue to demand smartphones that the company fails to supply. Then again, will its network hold up if it adds network-heavy smartphones? For now, its an apples to oranges comparison."

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Forums » iPhone Actually Hurting AT&T Customer Satisfaction
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ptrowski
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Key line....

"Of course while AT&T's problem might make Verizon seem like the ideal carrier, Verizon might have struggled with iPhone capacity demand as well."

I think that is the biggest point of the article. I think that just about any of the big carriers would have struggled under the weight. Yes AT&T should have been more proactive but should have, could have, would have...

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
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Re: Key line....

said by ptrowski See Profile :

"Of course while AT&T's problem might make Verizon seem like the ideal carrier, Verizon might have struggled with iPhone capacity demand as well."

I think that is the biggest point of the article. I think that just about any of the big carriers would have struggled under the weight. Yes AT&T should have been more proactive but should have, could have, would have...
I don't agree. The CDMA network is run by multiple carriers, so you're not limited to a single carrier who is responsible for all coverage. Add to that the fact that 3G has been deployed to a much larger area and the CDMA network as a whole in the US is just much more robust than AT&T's network. If an AT&T tower is full, you may roam onto a T-Mobile tower if there happens to be one near you, otherwise you just don't get service or get very poor service.

I don't think Verizon would have gotten off scot-free, I've seen some numbers peg the iPhone as 50% of all mobile web traffic, but I don't think they would have buckled so badly under the load as AT&T has. It's completely possible Verizon expected the load to be high and that factored into their decision to pass also.
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"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln

dennismurphy
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Re: Key line....

said by Matt See Profile :

I don't agree. The CDMA network is run by multiple carriers, so you're not limited to a single carrier who is responsible for all coverage.
What are you talking about? Multiple carriers? Verizon Wireless owns & operates their entire network. Full stop.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
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Jamestown, NC
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Re: Key line....

said by dennismurphy See Profile :

said by Matt See Profile :

I don't agree. The CDMA network is run by multiple carriers, so you're not limited to a single carrier who is responsible for all coverage.
What are you talking about? Multiple carriers? Verizon Wireless owns & operates their entire network. Full stop.
Verizon, Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular, etc ... you can roam on all those networks.
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln

adisor19

join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
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Re: Key line....

said by Matt See Profile :

said by dennismurphy See Profile :

said by Matt See Profile :

I don't agree. The CDMA network is run by multiple carriers, so you're not limited to a single carrier who is responsible for all coverage.
What are you talking about? Multiple carriers? Verizon Wireless owns & operates their entire network. Full stop.
Verizon, Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular, etc ... you can roam on all those networks.
Ya ok, so can an ATT customer roam on T-Mobile's network. But you are aware that as soon as you rooam on someone elses's network, extra charges apply, right ? It doesn't matter whether you roam on a CDMA network or an HSPA one, same principle applies.

Adi

FastiBook

join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA

Re: Key line....

There is no charge for roaming on att.

- A
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adisor19

join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
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Re: Key line....

said by FastiBook See Profile :

There is no charge for roaming on att.

- A
Sure there isn't. Keep roaming non stop on T-Mobile and see what happens with you account in a few months. You'll find that they will cancel it since it's costing them a lot in roaming fees so they're not making any $$ on you.

Adi

Hasselhoff
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clubs:

Re: Key line....

and you think that they don't make the money back from t-mobile when their customers roam on their network?

FastiBook

join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
Not sure what you mean exactly, but my plan has free unlimited roaming.

- A
--
LETS GO METS!

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
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join:2002-03-05
There is no charge for roaming on Sprint. (Of course, certain usage conditions apply.)

dddane

join:2002-01-10
Chicago, IL


1 edit
said by adisor19 See Profile :

Ya ok, so can an ATT customer roam on T-Mobile's network.
that's only true in certain markets... they can control roaming and lock you out of it. i've been an ATT customer for 8 years and have never been able to roam on t-mobile... and i've had probably 12 different model phones (mostly various blackberry devices). and i travel prett etxensively

avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

said by adisor19 See Profile :

Ya ok, so can an ATT customer roam on T-Mobile's network.
What T-Mobile network???
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standard disclaimers apply.

Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY

said by Matt See Profile :

Verizon, Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular, etc... you can roam on all those networks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that only Verizon and Sprint have their own CDMA networks and Alltel and USC resell one of the above.
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dennismurphy
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said by Matt See Profile :

said by dennismurphy See Profile :

said by Matt See Profile :

I don't agree. The CDMA network is run by multiple carriers, so you're not limited to a single carrier who is responsible for all coverage.
What are you talking about? Multiple carriers? Verizon Wireless owns & operates their entire network. Full stop.
Verizon, Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular, etc ... you can roam on all those networks.
Roaming agreements do not a single network make.

First and foremost, Verizon and Alltel merged ... they are now indeed one network there.

But as for Sprint, USCC and Verizon all playing together? Those are via roaming agreements. And those agreements change.

They often renegotiate those agreements. Sometimes roaming partners are added, sometimes they are dropped, and sometimes they change -- even in one region, but not another.

... and let's not forget the very small roaming partners that do still exist.

Anyone who's been around the wireless world for a long time will remember the most infamous one of all.... SUSSEX CELLULAR.

Don't assume that just because you have a CDMA phone that you can roam anywhere there is CDMA ... that's just not the case.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Key line....

Sure, roaming agreement may change, but for right now, Verizon and Sprint are beating AT&T and T-Mobile when it comes to overall coverage because of these roaming agreements. This is not hypothetical. Every measurable test that I have found supports this claim.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
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Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..


1 edit

Re: Key line....


AT&T - Blue is 3G
Click for full size
Verizon - Blue is 3G
said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Sure, roaming agreement may change, but for right now, Verizon and Sprint are beating AT&T and T-Mobile when it comes to overall coverage because of these roaming agreements. This is not hypothetical. Every measurable test that I have found supports this claim.
All one has to do is look at the difference in 3G coverage from the carrier's own website.
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln
bemis

join:2008-07-18
Stoneham, MA
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·Verizon FiOS
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Re: Key line....

said by Matt See ProfileAll one has to do is look at the difference in 3G coverage from the carrier's own website.
[/BQUOTE :


...and now let's overlay a map of iPhone owners...

Chances are pretty good that people in Wyoming are not buying mass qty's of iphones... and the ones who do probably would have as much chance buying on VZW as they did on ATT.

The T's (AT& and -Mobile) have every major metro area covered w/ 3G ... it's 2G where not and frankly 9/10 times I'm using my iPhone it's on WiFi anyway.

That said, yes, would be nice to have a VZW/Sprint option--I was w/ VZW until I got the iPhone and I am still w/ Sprint for my EVDO data service.

dennismurphy
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said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Sure, roaming agreement may change, but for right now, Verizon and Sprint are beating AT&T and T-Mobile when it comes to overall coverage because of these roaming agreements. This is not hypothetical. Every measurable test that I have found supports this claim.
I completely, totally, 100% agree. Verizon Wireless has the best coverage, nationwide, by far. On this, just about everyone agrees.

Verizon Wireless actually does very little roaming on Sprint's network. There's a few pockets of it, but for the most part, you're on the VZ network.

anonuser101

@rr.com

Re: Key line....

"Oh" really here check this out.

Network: Robust Network and Security
A Better Network Means Better Business
The AT&T Network
The AT&T Network covers over 300 million people and is growing, creating a solid platform to deliver services and solutions. For mobility it offers the nation's fastest 3G network and with the deployment of 7.2Mbps markets, the nation's fastest network is getting faster!

Our network is built on the worldwide GSM standard—the most widely deployed network standard in the world with 89% share, or over 3.6 billion subscribers worldwide. GSM provides:

•Economies of scale—wider range and lower cost of solutions and devices
•Global compatibility—more international roaming potential
•Ease of integration with emerging/new standards like LTE (Long Term Evolution)
AT&T is spending over 19 billion dollars in 2009, 5 billion each year for the past five years on the mobility network. Here's what AT&T is doing to improve voice and data communication for 2009:

•Nearly 2,000 additional 3G cell sites
•Over 20 new major metro markets for 3G
•Announcement of 6 major markets for faster 3G speeds/7.2Mbps, including: Charlotte, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and Los Angeles and Miami
•A national deployment of 850MHz spectrum for 3G to provide improved in-building penetration and overall improved coverage
•Plans to test and deploy the next generation of wireless standards—LTE (Long Term Evolution) promising faster speeds, but still in the GSM standards as our 2G and 3G technology

Fastest 3G in the Nation
Built on the global standard for wireless, the AT&T 3G network delivers the high speed and coverage your business needs to keep work flowing when you're on the road. High Speed Packet Access (HSPA) provides for fast speed for our mobility customers over earlier 3G/UMTS releases. Using 7.2Mbps, customers with capable LaptopConnect products or phones, like the iPhone 3G S, can experience the 7.2 speeds in coverage areas.

With the enhanced 3G network, you'll enjoy even better mobile broadband access to email, Internet and other applications.

•Available in most major metropolitan areas, providing typical download speeds of 700 Kbps to 1.7 Mbps and typical upload speeds of 500 Kbps to 1.2 Mbps on compatible devices for our current 3G network*
•Additional faster speeds available for 7.2 capable devices, depending on network conditions and availability**
•The only 3G technology that supports simultaneous voice and data with one device - your work doesn't stop when you need to talk
•Wireless service is available in select metropolitan markets
•Supported by AT&T Communication Manager software for LaptopConnect products

Wi-Fi another option for wireless users
AT&T has the largest Wi-Fi network managed directly by a national wireless carrier. We offer over 25,000 U.S. hotspots at no additional charge to your AT&T data plan***; including locations such as: Starbucks stores, Barnes and Noble stores, airports and participating McDonald’s restaurants. AT&T mobility data plan subscribers can easily switch to Wi-Fi through AT&T Connection Manager software, designed for LaptopConnect and enjoy the advantages of being connected while enjoying a cup of coffee or waiting for a flight.

In addition, AT&T offers 100,000 Wi-Fi locations in over 75 countries that can be accessed. Additional data charges may apply.

Enhanced Security and Connectivity Options
Whether wireless or wired, network security is a primary concern for businesses. Today's increasingly sophisticated security threats make implementing superior wireless security even more of a necessity. Network-to-network connectivity provides performance, security and reliability necessary to enable wireless applications. AT&T provides you with a range of connectivity options and can assist in designing an end-to-end security solution. For more information visit »developer.att.com.

Check out our Business Center to see all that AT&T can offer your business.

Speed and uninterrupted use of the service are not guaranteed. Coverage not available everywhere—visit the AT&T coverage viewer for details. Service defaults to national EDGE/GPRS network, where available, if AT&T 3G network is not available.

*Referenced speeds require an HSDPA 3.6Mbps/HSUPA capable device with Receive Diversity and/or Equalizer. AT&T is deploying HSUPA throughout the 3G footprint, HSUPA may not currently be available in all 3G areas. BroadbandConnect speed claims based on our network tests without compression using 3MB data files for download and 2MB data files for upload. 3G devices not enabled with HSUPA support typical upload speeds of 220-320Kbps based on our network tests without compression using 500KB data files for upload. Actual throughput speed varies.

**7.2Mbps speeds have yet to be evaluated.

***Some data plans may not include free access to the AT&T Wi-Fi hotspot network.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

said by dennismurphy See Profile :

Anyone who's been around the wireless world for a long time will remember the most infamous one of all.... SUSSEX CELLULAR.
Sussex Cellular, the cellphone provider run by a guy with his pickup

All profit, if any, goes towards beer. No capital investment since 1986.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

said by Matt See Profile :

Verizon, Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular, etc ... you can roam on all those networks.
A. Verizon rarely if ever roams on Sprint.
heres a list of never roam
* MTA008B - Boston, MA-RI-VT-NH-ME
* MTA001B - New York City, NY-NJ-PA-CT-VT
* MTA009B - Philadelphia, PA-NJ-DE-MD
* MTA002A - Los Angeles, CA-NV-AZ
* MTA027B - Phoenix, AZ
* MTA004A - San Francisco, CA-NV
* MTA036B - Salt Lake City, UT-ID-WY-NV-OR
* MTA022A - Denver, CO-WY-SD-NE-KS-UT
* MTA007B - Dallas, TX-LA-AR-OK-NM
* BTA027C - Austin, TX
* MTA048B - Tulsa, OK-KS
* MTA014D - Houston, TX-LA
* BTA059A - Bryan-College Station, TX
* BTA196E - Houston, TX
* BTA238F - Lake Charles, LA
* MTA044D - Knoxville, TN-VA-KY
* BTA229E - Kingsport, TN-Johnson City, TN-Bristol, VA-TN
* BTA295E - Middlesboro-Harlan, KY
* MTA023D - Richmond, VA-NC
* BTA324C - Norfolk-Virginia Beach-Newport News-Hampton, VA
* BTA374C - Richmond-Petersburg, VA
* MTA032B - Des Moines, IA-IL-MO-NE-SD-WI
* MTA045B - Omaha, NE-IA-KS
* MTA034A - Kansas City, MO-KS-OK
* MTA019B - St. Louis, MO-IL-AR
* MTA046B - Wichita, KS-OK
* MTA015A - Miami, FL
* MTA020A - Milwaukee, WI-MI-MN-IA
* MTA003D - Chicago, IL-IN-OH-MI-WI
* BTA071A - Champaign-Urbana, IL
* BTA078E - Chicago, IL
* BTA103E - Danville, IL
* BTA225E - Kankakee, IL
* BTA243E - La Salle-Peru-Ottawa-Streator, IL
* BTA380A - Rockford, IL
* MTA031A - Indianapolis, IN-IL
* MTA035A - Buffalo, NY-PA
* MTA005B - Detroit, MI-OH
* MTA021A - Pittsburgh, PA-WV-OH
* MTA016D - Cleveland, OH-PA
* BTA084B - Cleveland-Akron, OH
* MTA010A - Washington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA
********************
* MTA018D - Cincinnati, OH-WV-VA-KY-IN
* BTA035E - Beckley, WV
* BTA048E - Bluefield, WV
* BTA073E - Charleston, WV
* BTA081C - Cincinnati, OH
* BTA106C - Dayton-Springfield, OH
* BTA197E - Huntington, WV-Ashland, KY
* BTA259E - Logan, WV
* BTA359E - Portsmouth, OH
* BTA474E - Williamson, WV-Pikeville, KY
**********************
* MTA038D - Columbus, OH-WV
* MTA038E - Columbus, OH-WV
* BTA095C - Columbus, OH
********************
* MTA011D - Atlanta, GA-SC-AL-TN
* MTA039D - El Paso, TX-NM-AZ-UT-CO
* BTA008B - Albuquerque, NM
* BTA022A - Athens, GA
* BTA024A - Atlanta, GA
* BTA128E - El Paso, TX
* BTA139B - Farmington, NM-Durango, CO
* BTA162E - Gallup, NM
* BTA244C - Las Cruces, NM
* BTA386F - Roswell, NM
* BTA407B - Santa Fe, NM
***********************
* MTA006D - Charlotte, NC-SC-GA
* BTA074A - Charlotte-Gastonia, NC
* BTA141A - Fayetteville-Lumberton, NC
* BTA174A - Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC
* BTA174C - Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC
* BTA368A - Raleigh-Durham, NC

Verizon does roam onto Sprint in the following
* MTA030B - Portland, OR-WA-CA
* MTA024B - Seattle, WA
* BTA413C - Seattle-Tacoma, WA
* MTA042B - Spokane, WA-OR-ID-MT-WY
* MTA041B - Oklahoma City, OK
* MTA017A - New Orleans, LA-MS-AL-FL
* MTA033A - San Antonio, TX
* BTA268C - McAllen, TX
* MTA040B - Little Rock, AR-OK
* MTA037D - Jacksonville, FL-GA
* BTA159A - Gainesville, FL
* BTA212A - Jacksonville, FL
* BTA439A - Tallahassee, FL
* MTA013D - Tampa, FL
* BTA107A - Daytona Beach, FL
* BTA239C - Lakeland-Winter Haven, FL
* BTA289C - Melbourne-Titusville, FL
* BTA336A - Orlando, FL
* BTA336C - Orlando, FL
* BTA408A - Sarasota-Bradenton, FL
* BTA440A - Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
* MTA026B - Louisville, KY-IL-IN

I left out some minor or duplicate areas. This list was hand made, errors exist I'm sure.

sources:
»www.howardforums.com/archive/top···8-1.html
»www.roamingzone.com/prl/prl_51248.shtml

But in general, Verizon almost NEVER in-market roams onto Sprint unless Verizon is a PCS/1900 only in that area (Florida was the most famous VZ-PCS only example (East Florida both 800s belong to AT&T, West Florida, one 800 belongs to Alltel (now VZW), the other belongs to AT&T).

Not to mention, to "roam" off your carrier, means having "no service" with your carrier. So if Verizon has 0 (with service) or 1 bar, the Verizon phone will not switch to Sprint or US Cellular even if Sprint or US Cellular has 5 bars at that location. Have fun with your phone never ringing or no sound when you answer it, then a drop a few seconds later.

I'm less experienced with GSM, but GSM roaming is by tower by tower (no concept of cellular area codes (AMPS/TDMA/CDMA SID/NID system)), the roam carrier's tower asks the home carrier if its OK to permit your GSM phone on such and such located roam carrier tower, home carrier can say no roam, and then your phone says no service, or returns to the home carrier tower. AT&T rarely if ever roams onto Tmobile, Tmobile roams onto AT&T only in very rural areas, forcing roaming doesn't ever work, the roam tower will reject your phone based on instructions from your home carrier when your phone attempts to log on.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

I'm not going to address all 3 incorrect posts individually, so I will here. Verizon, Alltel (yes, I know they are now one, but they each built their own networks first), and Sprint do have their own robust networks. US Cellular has a few towers, not many, but has a roaming agreement with Verizon/Alltel and Sprint. Talk to them and they'll tell you this outright and provide you a map that shows it.

As far as roaming, I've never been charged a roaming fee in my life. Maybe you are charged roaming on certain plans, but none of the plans I've ever used. Any of the America's Choice calling plans include roaming for free.

So, if you have a CDMA handset, you can roam among Verizon/Alltel, Sprint, and yes, even the few US Cellular towers, probably other regional carriers too. With AT&T you pretty much have AT&T and perhaps T-Mobile if you're lucky. The CDMA network (I'm referring to all carriers collectively here) is much more robust and built-out than the GSM network here in the US.

Hope that clears up any confusion.
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln
itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA

Re: Key line....

Unless they've changed the PRL's, Verizon (like AT&T) tightly controls who you roam on. That's the job of the PRL (preferred roaming list) so you don't automagically roam on Sprint, Alltel, USC, etc.

The Verizon Lovefest is disgusting.

Hasselhoff
Guarding Lives
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL
clubs:
if the iphone wasn't exclusvie with AT&T, the impact would have probably been less noticeable. Spread it across every major carrier and you would see what I am talking about.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Loyal?

said by Karl :
In other words, iPhone customers are so eager to keep their devices and/or are so loyal to Apple they're not leaving AT&T, an act that rewards the carrier for sub-par customer support and network performance.
Or we don't want to pay an absurd ETF fee that never cycles to 0 dollars. When my contract is up, technically, I'll still have $50 left on the ETF (per line I might add) because it only decreases by $5 per month. Add to that the expense of having to purchase all new phones and it quickly becomes too costly while in contract to migrate.

I agree with the rest of the study however, as I came from Verizon and I think a 64% is about right for AT&T if Verizon is in the 90% range.
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

Re: Loyal?

Good point on the ETFs, yes, I need to reword that.

ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Grafton, WV
clubs:
·VOIPo

said by Matt See Profile :

Or we don't want to pay an absurd ETF fee that never cycles to 0 dollars. When my contract is up, technically, I'll still have $50 left on the ETF (per line I might add) because it only decreases by $5 per month. Add to that the expense of having to purchase all new phones and it quickly becomes too costly while in contract to migrate.
Do the ETF's really work that way?? I thought they reduced it by $5 per month and you have to pay unless your contract is up. In other words, even on the last month you will have $50 left per line as you stated. But wait until after the contract end date and that $50 drops off completely. So you will always be dinged at least $50 before the end date but afterwards it is immediately $0.
glinc

join:2009-04-07
New York, NY

Re: Loyal?

nope, each month that goes by it less...so yea if you cancel 1 month away from your contract is $5-$10 depending on the carrier....I believe Nextel/Sprint and T-mobile still are the ones who doesnt pro-rate your ETF

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

said by ropeguru See Profile :

said by Matt See Profile :

Or we don't want to pay an absurd ETF fee that never cycles to 0 dollars. When my contract is up, technically, I'll still have $50 left on the ETF (per line I might add) because it only decreases by $5 per month. Add to that the expense of having to purchase all new phones and it quickly becomes too costly while in contract to migrate.
Do the ETF's really work that way?? I thought they reduced it by $5 per month and you have to pay unless your contract is up. In other words, even on the last month you will have $50 left per line as you stated. But wait until after the contract end date and that $50 drops off completely. So you will always be dinged at least $50 before the end date but afterwards it is immediately $0.
Thanks for the clarification, yes that is what I meant. You don't have to pay the $50 if your contract has expired.

What I was trying to illustrate, is that your ETF doesn't decrease proportionally with your contract like the other carriers. Technically, you should have a $5 ETF the month before your contract expires, but they structure it so that would be a $55 ETF fee. Verizon's ETF expires 1-2 months before your contract is up actually, so you can cancel a month or two before your contract end date with no penalty. $50 doesn't seem like much, but when you are talking a family plan with 2, 3, or 4 lines it becomes a significant expense ...
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln
bemis

join:2008-07-18
Stoneham, MA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Verizon FiOS
·Comcast

said by Matt See Profile :

Or we don't want to pay an absurd ETF fee that never cycles to 0 dollars. When my contract is up, technically, I'll still have $50 left on the ETF (per line I might add) because it only decreases by $5 per month. Add to that the expense of having to purchase all new phones and it quickly becomes too costly while in contract to migrate.
I don't agree w/ the ETF complaints when it comes to devices like the iPhone.

These are subsidized and the ETF ensures that you stay on contract long enough to pay off that subsidy.

So your choice is pay +$200 at purchase, and probably not see a decrease in your monthly fees ... or see a $200 discount on your phone and have to pay it back if you end up leaving the carrier.

When you're looking at the cheaper phones it starts to get ridiculous however--the ETFs ought to be related to whatever actual monetary value you get from signing up to the contract--i.e. get a Nokia low end phone in a 2-yr contract and your ETF is $75, or whatever the MSRP of the phone is.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Re: Loyal?

I'll happily give the iPhone back.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

said by Matt See Profile :


Or we don't want to pay an absurd ETF fee that never cycles to 0 dollars. When my contract is up, technically, I'll still have $50 left on the ETF (per line I might add) because it only decreases by $5 per month. Add to that the expense of having to purchase all new phones and it quickly becomes too costly while in contract to migrate.
What ever happened to buying used/refurbed phones off ebay? Most phone models only last a year nowadays with todays must have the "coolest" phone on the block. Phones depreciate faster than cars (the moment you drive a car off the lot, it just lost $5K in value) or laptops these days.

Just buy 1 or 2 generations before.

Just picking some Verizon models.
»cell-phones.shop.ebay.com/Cell-P···.c0.m282

Or this smartphone, released 2007, now under $50

»cell-phones.shop.ebay.com/Cell-P···.c0.m301

Or this phone, launched July 2008, $51 bid, wont sell at $100 now, $129.99 after $50 rebate with 2 year contract, $299 retail.
»desc.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=8···2&_rdc=1
»www.engadget.com/2008/07/11/lgs-···ands-on/
»www.phonearena.com/htmls/LG-Choc···947.html

Cellphones are a commodity nowadays. Much more supply than demand. Demand (sheeple/proles) only buys new, and all the almost-brand-new used handsets are going straight into the garbage after 1 or 2 years. Its a bit like PCs and laptops and printers nowadays, when you get a virus, just throw it out and buy a new one, cheaper than to pay someone 1-2 hours to get rid of all the toolbars and bonzi buddy you loaded on your system. What happened to keeping a product until its obsolete or physically breaks down? My cellphone from 2005 has had all of its paint/fake chrome chip off. It has 3G, bluetooth, speakerphone, 1 MP camera, flash, memory card, plays mp3s on card, 2-3 days of battery with extended batt, and its perfect for me. Works perfect to this day for me (except for a LCD replacement because of water damage). My old folks use a 2001 era model, speakerphone, analog (useless now), color display (first color display phone sold by Verizon too), contact list. Meets all of their needs. 1 of the 2 phones had a screen failure from a splash of water in 2006, I replaced the LCD from a donor phone for $10, phone still works to this day. My house still has Western Electric rotary phones in most places, those phones are decades older than me and will last until I'm dead or beyond. A washer and dryer built in the early 1970s (washer got 1 belt replacement and 1 new timer dial in its life, timer dial is destroyed if you turn it counter clockwise, dryer no repairs ever, except a duct cleaning once a decade). The toss away culture is insane in the USA.

cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

Build it, and they will...

Overload it!

Once again, Apple's product is neutered because of another company.
(See PPC vs Intel history...)

(I'm no Apple Fanboy. I'm their biggest critic!)
--
Splat

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
·AT&T U-Verse
·PHONE POWER

Some other factors involved too

In this area AT&T's 3G network deployment is roughly a year behind Verizon's. Plus, going from GSM/EDGE to UMTS seems to be a more involved upgrade than it was for Verizon to go to EVDO. Of course, US based customers don't really care about the underlying technology, unless they travel internationally.

When the iPhone 3G came out, it shined a big spotlight on issues I had been seeing for over a year with my Samsung Blackjack: Dropped calls when transitioning from 3G to Edge, and poor 3G reception. Those issues are much better now. But, AT&T needs to work harder on coverage.

It will be interesting to see how smoothly and how quickly Verizon is able to transition to LTE.
--
AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.

FastiBook

join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
·Verizon FiOS

My personal experience...

My personal experience with att has been 110% satisfactory. Yes, there are some times when for some reason i have no signal, however it was the same with my old phone, and has more to do with EM interference and physical barriers between transceiver and handset than a network issue. The thing that does bother me however, is 5 bars, unable to do data or voice, but this is in one single location indoors near the hudson river across from lower manhattan. I am guessing the building is letting the building mounted equipment in NY see my phone, but too far to send/receive data, because the lobby/street level part is mostly glass, but above is primarily masonry and metal, and is occupied by machinery. That being said, they have helped me when funds for bill paying come up short, and how i got my iPhone & how my girlfriend got hers (we are on a family plan) to me now seems miraculous, and i wish other companies (like vz & ccast) would follow this type of "customer first" policy. I think if people expect to get full speed 3G data 100% of the time they need to do research into how radio waves and cell systems work. Data is completely secondary to voice, the primary concern is voice.

- A
--
LETS GO METS!
OSPE

join:2005-08-08
Birmingham, AL

Re: My personal experience...

Despite the results of the research, I find it hard to believe that the iPhone is hurting AT&T in any significant way other than AT&T eating part of the hardware cost. While I'm sure there are a handful of noisy customers complaining of said network congestion (particularly at major "nerdy" events like an E3 and the like), the number of owners who "hate" their iPhone are few and far between. The loud majority, in my experience, are non-iPhone owners that want to validate their decision to not own one, and lambasting AT&T contributes to that effort.
MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
·Optimum Online
·DIRECTV

I think it all depends on where you live, I live in suburban NJ and my signal is just as good as it was with Verizon, in fact it's better than I used to get with Verizon in my apartment. Granted if you look at those two 3G maps the tri-state area is one of a few large sections of the U.S. that is well covered by GSM, I don't travel outside of the east coast in the U.S. hardly ever so the rest of the country is a non-issue, when I do travel it's usaully out of the country in which case having a GSM phone is great.

In my area AT&T's 3G seems faster than it was with a verizon 3G phone, though part of it could be how much better the iphone is in comparision to Verizon's crappy smartphones which is the reason I left.
MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
·Optimum Online
·DIRECTV

Re: My personal experience...

 
 
Just thought I'd post alittle proof from the iphone speedtest.net app, this is my normal 3G speed range though it's usaully around 800 - 1MB/s if I had to give an average.

Not bad for 3G in my opinion

FastiBook

join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
·Verizon FiOS

Yea, totally. I take NJ transit train from trenton to newark, often using internet the whole way, get on PATH at newark penn, sometimes use internet till tunnel. Come up from tunnel at exchange place PATH station, problems with throughput but not signal bars. I am guessing this is because i'm not only near the edge of a cell area (state border on a wide river) but i'm also a block from goldman sachs world headquarters in jersey city, 2 hotels, condo towers, several large office towers, and some stuff under construction. It is a very concentrated area of handset usage near the edge of coverage in probably more than one shadow. If i move out of the station building i get everything back. This only started in the last 2 months, i'm guessing it has something to do with antenna locations. Maybe they had to move the antennas or something.

Everyone i've talked to loves their iPhone, and only one person i've overheard doesn't like ATT+iPhone, but they seemed like a snobby rich weirdo, so who knows what psychosis they are suffering from.

- A
--
LETS GO METS!

Gbcue
E.I.T.
Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs:
·T-Mobile US
·Skype
·Dreamhost
·Comcast
·AT&T U-Verse

Apple Genius Bar: iPhones' 30% Call Drop Is "Normal" in NY

»gizmodo.com/5370493/apple-genius···true&s=x

quote:
How utterly shitty is the iPhone on AT&T in the New York area? The average iPhone drops 30 percent of all calls. And that's considered acceptable by Apple.

Giz reader Manoj took his iPhone to the Genius Bar to have it looked at because it was dropping calls left and right, and AT&T swore stuff was totally kosher on their end, so he thought something was wrong with his phone. After doing a stat dump, the Genius showed Manoj that his iPhone had actually dropped 22 percent of calls.

The jawdropper: The Genius told Manoj that's actually excellent compared to most people in the New York area, where a 30 percent dropped call rate is the average. There was nothing Apple could do for Manoj. His phone was totally fine. Which means there's nothing Apple can do for rest of us.

Ridiculous, and downright insulting. But, uh, if you pay $150 for this box it'll be all better. Excuse me while I go and puke. I'll call somebody and complain, but it probably wouldn't get through.
Hahaha!
--
My BLOG!
Black Friday Ads

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL


1 edit

Re: Apple Genius Bar: iPhones' 30% Call Drop Is "Normal" in NY

I'd venture to say it's the iPhone's RF that's shitty, not AT&T. I've not had dropped calls in the 1 month I've had my Sony Ericsson. Even 3G speeds here in lower Manhattan aren't that bad (Note: I was on bluetooth on this test):



I guess I must be the exception to the rule..

-a333
--
Physics: Will you break the laws of physics, or will the laws of physics break you?
If physicists stand on each other's shoulders, computer scientists stand on each other's toes, and computer programmers dig each other's graves.
NefCanuck

join:2007-06-26
Mississauga, ON

Up to 30% of calls on an iPhone being dropped is "normal"?

Christ if my phone did that to me it would have gone back to the store in less than a week. I mean we buy cell phones to use the things, not have calls dropped like they were on fire

NefCanuck

Silvanos
It's a new Silvanos experience
Premium
join:2002-10-07
Buffalo, NY
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Apple Genius Bar: iPhones' 30% Call Drop Is "Normal" in NY

I've had an iPhone for 2 years and I have never lost a call, if they ask me I would be 100% happy. My wife has Verizon and needs to use my phone to talk to her folks across the country because her connection stinks.
--
Any it new they in one. You here for mine you here.
-JV

FastiBook

join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Apple Genius Bar: iPhones' 30% Call Drop Is "Normal" in NY

Only time i get an "unexpected" dropped call is in my bedroom which gets 1 bar, weird the next room over, and some parts of my room get 5 bars! I typically go upstairs to make important calls, when i'm outside there is never an issue -ever-. As far as RF quality/strength on iPhone 3G, it's very robust and clear when it interferes with my amp's input, it actually sounds very neat!

- A
--
LETS GO METS!

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy

The Overburdened AT&T Network

It's amusing that AT&T could alleviate some of that burden through femtocells. But, rather than encouraging their use AT&T (and all the other providers) want to charge people for the privilege of helping AT&T out. Sorry, not paying you to offload traffic from your network and I'm not paying my ISP so that I can shunt everyone nearby's traffic through my connection.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

cellularb

@fastwave.biz

Re: The Overburdened AT&T Network

Ok it seams as though people are not looking at things in retrospect. The rest of the world is on GSM technology since the 80's and with the current limitations with "Revision A" on the CDMA networks; its only a matter of time before VZ/sprint follow suit. Cell service is cheap compared to "bag phone days" and with a full GSM rollout in the USA it would pretty much eliminate roaming agreements all-together. Until this happens, it truly is a money game. In my opinion when you pick one of the "big four" its like choosing the lesser of all the evils; though this sounds like a contradictory statement its totally true. I wont go into detail about my horrible customer service experience with 3 of the big four I've dealt with. bottom line; I carry a prepaid phone in my trunk from the carrier I'm not with for when times i really need a phone and mines not working today. I use the call forwarding feature with my plan. people expect way too much out of cell service. I really beg to differ that VZ has the most reliable network but wutever; doesn't really matter. In most cases it does depend on your geographical area. More subscribers=More dollars so when it is possible the carriers will saturate areas with higher usage with more towers. The FCC has to approve every tower that is erected so even if a carrier knows of an area where there is a "dead spot"; its not something that can be fixed overnight VZ, ATT or otherwise. Bottom line its all about "image" until GSM is rolled-out through all US carriers; and when this happens... you can be rest assured that the company that rolls out the better eqpt, has the better features and appears to have the best value will win. Regardless of this notion there will always be "churn" on every network because there are too many panzys out there that make 6 figure incomes; that will port out over some dumb stuff and pay the ETF to prove a point. At the end of the day everyone loves and hates their cell carrier.

dddane

join:2002-01-10
Chicago, IL


2 edits
as a business customer, we'd be very happy to take on the bandwidth cost of installing a microsite in our suite. however, as far as i know they only allow this in a certain markets in north carolina?

there's no doubt the AT&T network went down the tubes because of the iphone. i've been on the phone countless times w/ their enterprise support and even they don't pretend to deny it.

...we have 90% blackberry devices here... as soon as the Iphone 3g came out our service went from a 90% satisfaction rate to maybe 20%... i can't even receive CALLS on my blackberry in my office unless i put my phone near a window. yet i still have a full signal if you look at that. and no, it's not my device thank you.

a microsite would solve a lot of problems.. . AT&T should be shipping them out for free to get people to offload some of their RF traffic at a more micro level...of course their own greed gets in the way of doing this.

...and as far as bandwidth, we have both AT&T and verizon broadband cards, and the verizon are significantly faster. we stopped ordering ATT broadband cards... (and the iphone uses the same network, it's not magic..).

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy

Re: The Overburdened AT&T Network

said by dddane See Profile :

AT&T should be shipping them out for free to get people to offload some of their RF traffic at a more micro level...of course their own greed gets in the way of doing this.
And that's exactly the point. Instead of trying to get revenue for "better indoor service", they should look at it as offsetting the costs of running their own services.

It's kind of amusing. Businesses get by on margin. There's two ways of improving your margins: sell more or reduce expenses. Most businesses only grok "reduce expenses" when the markets tighten and they can't maintain or grow sales. So long as a product sells now, why do anything to ensure that it continues to sell, tomorrow.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX

Roaming is not a business issue, not technooogical

If Verizon allows you to roam onto Sprint (or vice versa), it is a business issue. It has nothing to do with wether they run proprietary CDMA or global GSM network stacks.

AT&T is really made up of the old AT&T that was going down fast, and Cingular which itself was made up of Pac Bell and Bell South (and probably others). These mergers and re-mergers happened not too long ago and there hasn't been much time to merge all networks, remove redundancies, fix problems AND upgrade to 3G. And more importantly, AND FIX THEIR BUSINESS PRACTICES ISSUES.

Having said this, when 3G to 4G happens, those on the GSM stack will be better positioned to move to LTE, while those stuck on the now dead end proprietary CDMA stack will be forced to do a more comprehensive upgrade. At that point, AT&T may be able to move quicker and catch up or even get ahead of the Verizon/Spring networks.

The *may* catch up. It all depends if their management is smart.

If Cingular ended up keeping much of the AT&T management in place when they bought AT&T Wireless, then it is likely that the same practices that caused AT&T Wireless to spiral downwards may contaminate the Cingular portions of the business.

Remember that companies who need contracts to survive are the ones with the problem networks. One with superior network and service doesn't need contracts because customers are happy.
itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA

100% happy with AT&T AND the iPhone

that's right, 100% happy. I have and use both AT&T and Verizon and

Verizon is not the be all and end all of cell carriers. They suck just like the rest of them - they just have a really great brainwashing department.

trparky
Core i7 Inside
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
clubs:

Re: 100% happy with AT&T AND the iPhone

Me too. Completely happy with my iPhone and AT&T.
--
Tom
Forums » iPhone Actually Hurting AT&T Customer Satisfaction


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