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story category Wilson, North Carolina: Symmetrical 100Mbps
City offers symmetrical tiers and triple play service...
08:57AM Monday Jun 23 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: prices · alternatives · municipal
IndyWeek has an interesting read on the North Carolina city of Wilson, which is providing all of its residents with fiber optic triple play services via a city-run operation named Greenlight. Greenlight offers symmetrical connections from 10Mbps ($34.95) up to 100Mbps ($299.95), something that obviously doesn't make local competitor Time Warner Cable very happy. Author Fiona Morgan offers as concise of a description of this country's rural broadband problems as you're likely to see:
Click for full size
"The cable and phone carriers don't provide this essential service unless they decide it will make enough money to be worthwhile. Increasing deregulation of the telecommunications industry has helped prop up monopolies—without requiring the companies that deliver most of the nation's Internet service to invest in the infrastructure that would allow broadband speed to increase, or costs to decrease."
Wilson's solution is to do it themselves. As usual though, I'll note that local incumbents want to have their cake (slow, limited deployment of services to protect coffers, limited competition) but want to eat it too (they're trying to pass North Carolina laws that greatly limit the ability of cities like Wilson from wiring themselves with fiber when nobody else will).

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Forums » Wilson, North Carolina: Symmetrical 100Mbps
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coxkidgrave

@cox.net

wow

yup i think im moving to Nc sometime this week .. fios wont come because my city denied them .. so i'll be leaving... in other news THIS IS JUST AWESOME ... the city just took a big dump on comcast lol, and im not even mad at the prices because its all symmetrical, and theirs no competition, web hosting biz anyone ??

THIS IS WHAT EVERY CITY ... well most with good population density needs to be doing now

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA

Re: wow

Verizon is only around Durham.
ke4pym

join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
·RoadRunner Cable
·Verizon BroadbandA..
·Packet8
·Vonage

Re: wow

said by grydlok See Profile :

Verizon is only around Durham.
They're in Union County, too.

cfvgdgeed

@rr.com

Re: wow

yeah in the red headed stepchild part of union county. after telling me that dsl was coming and waiting years. we moved to a part of union county served by windstream and 12 meg.
hamstang

join:2001-11-12
Charlotte, NC
·RoadRunner Cable

said by ke4pym See Profile :

said by grydlok See Profile :

Verizon is only around Durham.
They're in Union County, too.
Verizon only offers local phone service in Union Co......no FIOS right?

Daddy

join:2007-12-07
Bronx, NY

Why North Carolina ??

I don't understand why they choose NC, Unless it's easier to get approval to install internet there then it is in Other states. Greenlight should come on down to New York. I'm not waiting 4 years for Fios

CoxCable4
banned from most servers for cheating

join:2002-10-02
PwnZone

Re: Why North Carolina ??

because incumbents are fighting tooth and nail to keep verizon from competing with them in areas like new york

where on the other hand nobody gives a crap about wilson, nc

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast

said by Daddy See Profile :

Greenlight should come on down to New York. I'm not waiting 4 years for Fios
Greenlight is not a PRIVATE company that will do business elsewhere. It is a service of the city.

»www.greenlightnc.com/about/
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
w4ncr

join:2000-10-27
Wilmington, NC

Wilson is a lovely town and even from years past always had modern ideas as in years ago I lived in Rocky Mount and then blue laws were in effect and Rocky Mount did not open stores for shopping on Sunday so I just drove down to Wilson to do my shopping and they did not have blue laws.
Does not surprise me at all that this city stepped out and got their own Fios, if they had a major transportation system there, might consider moving there myself.
To clarify the only two cities in North Carolina to get fiber to your home is Wilson and Salisbury, because they did their own, and in South Carolina only North Myrtle Beach has fiber to the home.This fiber in South Carolina installed by wonderful Verizon.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by Daddy See Profile :

I don't understand why they choose NC, ...
I don't think Greenlight chose NC, the city of Wilson, NC chose them.

the incumbents definitely don't like this story, because it's a success story which makes them look bad. Nothing shows the attitude of the incumbents better than this:

"A few days ago, the Buchans signed up for cable, Internet and phone service through Greenlight. Even with two DVR boxes, more sports channels and 20 Mbps in speed, Gentry anticipates paying $50 less per month. "When I called to cancel Time Warner, they told me there was no way I was getting the speeds I was getting for the price I was paying—they didn't believe me.""

With the money Time Warner spends on lobbying AGAINST letting municipalities do this, they probably could have done fiber for Wilson.
smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

Re: Why North Carolina ??

It's not yet a "success story." The service has just started.

Wilson, NC does not have enough households to pay for this service. They wish to fund it without tax payer money going forward, and that is just not possible, even with 100% of the people signing up for cable, phone, and Internet.

It would be ridiculous to think that 100% of those households have all of those services from incumbents now, and it would be more ridiculous to think they'd suddenly decide to get them all from Wilson.

MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation

Re: Why North Carolina ??

said by smcallah See Profile :

It's not yet a "success story." The service has just started.

Wilson, NC does not have enough households to pay for this service. They wish to fund it without tax payer money going forward, and that is just not possible, even with 100% of the people signing up for cable, phone, and Internet.

It would be ridiculous to think that 100% of those households have all of those services from incumbents now, and it would be more ridiculous to think they'd suddenly decide to get them all from Wilson.
They have plenty of household to pay for this service. They are coming in at less than Time Warner for all services, or individual services. It looks like they are at an absolutely minimum $10/month cheaper (per product) for a better product than Time Warner.

You are also missing the point that the city has had their own fiber optic network for 3 years and they've already extended this to businesses ... so businesses and residents can both utilize this network.

In addition to that, most businesses and residents are located very close. They have a population density of 2000 people per square mi. We only have a population density of 1100 square mile and my ILEC is making money hand over fist with their BPON service.
JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL
»money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag···540.html

MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation

said by Daddy See Profile :

I don't understand why they choose NC, Unless it's easier to get approval to install internet there then it is in Other states. Greenlight should come on down to New York. I'm not waiting 4 years for Fios
"Greenlight is a service of the City of Wilson, NC"

That's why they chose Wilson, NC. Sorry, you won't see it any time soon.

anonymice

@comcast.net
You don't understand:
Greenlight is the City of Wilson’s community-owned all fiber optic network.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by Daddy See Profile :

I don't understand why they choose NC, Unless it's easier to get approval to install internet there then it is in Other states. Greenlight should come on down to New York. I'm not waiting 4 years for Fios
Hey at least you got a chance of getting fios. no hope here in qworstland.
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee

LukasEU

@shawcable.net

A few more links

Wilson,NC (population 44,000) at Wikipedia: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%2C_···Carolina

They most probably use this End-to-End Triple Play IPTV solution from Alcatel: »www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/porta···ple+Play

K3

join:2008-05-06
Kankakee, IL
·Comcast

Re: A few more links

said by LukasEU :

Wilson,NC (population 44,000) at Wikipedia: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%2C_···Carolina

They most probably use this End-to-End Triple Play IPTV solution from Alcatel: »www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/porta···ple+Play
and by weeks end the population will be almost 100,000, lol, cause everyone in my town with crappy internet service will be moving there...pronto

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast

Promise no tax increase. Are they right?

»www.greenlightnc.com/about/faq/
Will my taxes go up because this project is so expensive?

No. The funds for constructing the fiber network come from bonds issued by the City of Wilson. Tax revenues are not being used to fund this project in any way.
But taxes can go up if they can't repay the bonds. All these city funded projects PROMISE no new taxes. Very few deliver on that promise.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

DaveNJ
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey

Re: Promise no tax increase. Are they right?

Thats why i think they should be leased out, to a private company. 3 different if its phone, tv and data.

Skeedatl
Ah, push it - push it real good
Premium
join:2007-12-26
The Cloud
And even if they do go up, the service is so much cheaper than for profit operations, it still a good deal.

MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

»www.greenlightnc.com/about/faq/
Will my taxes go up because this project is so expensive?

No. The funds for constructing the fiber network come from bonds issued by the City of Wilson. Tax revenues are not being used to fund this project in any way.
But taxes can go up if they can't repay the bonds. All these city funded projects PROMISE no new taxes. Very few deliver on that promise.
And Puff the Magic Dragon could fly down the street stringing the fiber behind him too. Sure it's possible ... just not very likely. Even if the City defaulted on the bonds, that doesn't mean taxes will go up. It just means the City will have to divert funds from another source ...

If the build out is controlled, planned and managed properly, this is not a very expensive proposition. The key is to offer a better product than Time Warner which is not difficult on the TV side as their offerings are pretty meager, offer a better internet product, and offer the phone service at or slightly below the Digital Phone price point.

The total land area of Wilson is ONLY 23 square miles and there is a population density of almost 2000 people per square mile. This is a good location to test this if it's managed properly, specifically related to build-out speed vs. uptake rate. They should also use the same tactics that TW uses and offer promotions for the first year.
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk

Re: Promise no tax increase. Are they right?

said by MattE See Profile :

Even if the City defaulted on the bonds, that doesn't mean taxes will go up. It just means the City will have to divert funds from another source ...
*snicker*

This was even funnier after I saw the Obama 08 under your forum avatar, it sounds like one of his campaign promises (at least today's version of one, contents subject to change without notice).

Lord knows governments everywhere are known for fiscal responsibility and accountability...
cptmiles
Premium
join:2004-04-22
Swayzee, IN

Taxes

Here's a thought. Instead of forcing cities to fend for themselves and build networks for millions of dollars. Why don't they work with with all potential communications companies (not just the biggies) and give local tax incentives and breaks for certain levels of service?

Does anyone know if any of the self networked cities ever tried to do that?

bolt
Former Broadband Exile
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN
·Community Wireless

Re: Taxes

said by cptmiles See Profile :

Does anyone know if any of the self networked cities ever tried to do that?
As far as I know, Scottsburg, Indiana, who deployed thier own wireless network, begged Verizon to come in and wire the city. Verizon is primary incumbent telecom for the area. Verizon said "No" so the city started their own wireless network. As a result they were able to save many jobs in the area.

Funny how after they deployed their wireless, Verizon suddenly cam in and everyone who wanted could get DSL.

Skeedatl
Ah, push it - push it real good
Premium
join:2007-12-26
The Cloud
Pennsylvania tried (stick and carrot) that with Bell Atlantic. BA got over $2 billion in benefits without deploying any fiber.
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: Taxes

They did it the wrong way... but of course they did, that's how Bell Atlantic wanted it.

If you want an actual tax incentive plan, then the incentives should only show up once the fiber is deployed- for example, look at the recent Massachusetts ruling that phone company poles can be taxed- let's say that the state made a law saying that poles with FTTH lines would not be taxed. Verizon would have to actually deploy to see the benefits.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:

Re: Taxes

the blame lies squarely with Verizon for basically lying and stealing from the citizens of the state. place blame when the harm was done--- Verizon to citizens of PA.

King P
Don't blame me. I voted for Ron Paul
Premium
join:2004-11-17
Inman, SC
·Windstream
·Charter Pipeline
·Speakeasy
·Vonage

good job Wilson

Wilson is about an hour east of Raleigh. It used to be the banking center for BB&T, but other than that there isn't much there.

Kudos to the city for setting up their own fiber network and kicking Time Warner and at&t in the balls.
--
My Music blog:
»www.zunetracks.net

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA
·voip.com

Re: good job Wilson

said by King P See Profile :

Wilson is about an hour east of Raleigh. It used to be the banking center for BB&T, but other than that there isn't much there.

Kudos to the city for setting up their own fiber network and kicking Time Warner and at&t in the balls.
Your right about nothing being there.
JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL

Re: good job Wilson

People?

ddg4005
Premium
join:2001-08-22
Bronx, NY

Symmetrical 100Mbps

This is good news. I'm glad to see a municipality stepping up to provide fast service for its residents. I hope other cities follow suit.
--
A man must have a code -Bunk

ztmike
1kwikgt
Premium
join:2001-08-02

Caps?

Will there be caps on this service? That's all I'm interested in..since this doesn't benefit me at all.
--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYueIC1pjM

See 7 replies to this post

LukasEU

@shawcable.net


from:
MacLeech See Profile

Further connectivity

It's all beautiful they have 100/100 within the city limits but I'd like to know how are they connected beyond that - to the real Internet.

Is there a POP with a big telco or dark or lit fiber provider in their city and they hand over traffic there? What other POP s is this provider present at? Or do they lease lines to the nearest big POP and peer there? Do they have links to several POPs?

Anybody has better information?

bigfitch
Premium
join:2005-06-01
Murrayville, IL
clubs:

Re: Further connectivity

IM moving im paying 42 a month for 1.0mbit/1mbit
bbskeptic

join:2005-09-12
Burlington, VT

100 Mbps to where?

Where does a little ISP, with a small subscriber base, get the financial horsepower to purchase enough bandwidth to offer 100mbps per subscriber. They are probably selling at a ridiculous oversubscription rate. I'm guessing they buy IP transit exclusively from Level3 based upon the IP's they use. I wonder if they could handle 20 or 30 of their 100mpbs customers maxxing out their connection 24x7.

bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..

Re: 100 Mbps to where?

The people that are too cheap to pay for their Movies and Music are also too cheap to pay for 100/100 service, so it probably won't be a issue.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:

Re: 100 Mbps to where?

zing!
Shoreline
Your Freedom Fries Are Stale

join:2003-09-29
Santa Clara, CA

Good for them

Hopefully there's an exodus of other cities to follow.
ILpt4U

join:2006-11-12
Crystal Lake, IL
·AT&T Yahoo

Possible for AT&T or Verizon or Other to buy?

If the town of Wilson here gets this all up and running, would AT&T, Verizon, etc be interested in buying the network that is already built? And then plugging it into U-Verse or FiOS, respectively?

The most expensive part about FTTH is actually running that "Last Mile" fiber, so if the town is already wired, AT&T or Verizon could come in and swipe up their network (if it is for sale, or say Wilson starts having financial trouble from the costs of running the wire).

AT&T or Verizon would find a way to plug it into their networks to get good pipes to the bigger internet.
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: Possible for AT&T or Verizon or Other to buy?

Well, the question is, why would Wilson sell when it's working out for them? I suppose if they started having trouble and the town needed money or NC passed a law banning municipally-owned networks it could be a possibility, but in the current situation, why sell?
ILpt4U

join:2006-11-12
Crystal Lake, IL
·AT&T Yahoo

Re: Possible for AT&T or Verizon or Other to buy?

said by EPS See Profile :

Well, the question is, why would Wilson sell when it's working out for them? I suppose if they started having trouble and the town needed money or NC passed a law banning municipally-owned networks it could be a possibility, but in the current situation, why sell?
Why sell? Oh, idk, if AT&T or Verizon comes and offers a sizable sum of $$$, and the town of Wilson is over-budget on this or anything else, and the town needs some money for the budget -- I could imagine a scenario or two where a Mayor and City Board would be willing to entertain offers.

beatabouttheface

@bell.ca

said by EPS See Profile :

Well, the question is, why would Wilson sell when it's working out for them? I suppose if they started having trouble and the town needed money or NC passed a law banning municipally-owned networks it could be a possibility, but in the current situation, why sell?
Don't ask 'why'...the answer, when the gov't is involved, is always to make themselves look good for 5 minutes.

In Ontario, the most expensive and profitable toll road known to mankind was sold by the Harris Conservative gov't to balance the books for one year. The taxpayers paid for it, the gov't built it, then charged to drive on it...THEN they sold out the citizens to foreign companies for a 99-year lease that earned next to nothing. I think there's only 94 years left to go, WOO HOO...

Now it's the most expensive and profitable road in the universe (read: it electronically drains the bank account of anyone that dares even LOOK at the road). It costs around $0.30/mile for cars, and about $0.90/mile for trucks. Good thing that money is going outside the country, instead of into gov't coffers...what a strain on public resources that would have been!

Look up 407ETR, you'll see what I mean.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by ILpt4U See Profile :

If the town of Wilson here gets this all up and running, would AT&T, Verizon, etc be interested in buying the network that is already built? And then plugging it into U-Verse or FiOS, respectively?
if that happened you could bet those symmetrical tiers would go away and prices would skyrocket.
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee
BigVe

join:2005-07-15
Gulliver, MI

What about caps?

They probably cap you at 50GB/mo. or so
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Yawn

Deployment to go massively overbudget and eventually fail in 5...4...3...2...

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL

B.S.

quote:
Will my taxes go up because this project is so expensive?
No. The funds for constructing the fiber network come from bonds issued by the City of Wilson. Tax revenues are not being used to fund this project in any way.
Where does the city get the money to pay back the bonds plus interest? TAXES.
switchman

join:1999-11-06
Grand Prairie, TX
·RoadRunner Cable


edit:
June 23rd, @06:41PM

Re: B.S.

said by batterup See Profile :

quote]
Where does the city get the money to pay back the bonds plus interest? TAXES.
Do you think, maybe, they might just be thinking of using the revenues they receive from selling the sevices to their customers to pay their debt.

Also, do you think it might be part of a long term plan to get other companies to establish business there?

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: B.S.

said by switchman See Profile :

said by batterup See Profile :

quote]
Where does the city get the money to pay back the bonds plus interest? TAXES.
Do you think, maybe, they might just be thinking of using the revenues they receive from selling the sevices to their customers to pay their debt.

Also, do you think it might be part of a long term plan to get other companies to establish business there?
That may be what they think but they are ignorant of the facts. STFW Utopia Utah.

tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

said by batterup See Profile :

quote:
Will my taxes go up because this project is so expensive?
No. The funds for constructing the fiber network come from bonds issued by the City of Wilson. Tax revenues are not being used to fund this project in any way.
Where does the city get the money to pay back the bonds plus interest? TAXES.
Nope! It is planned that the fees for service will repay the bonds, and eventually provde income for addtional city projects
Wilson seems to be a very well run city, has municapal owned water, electrical and gas service, which own much of there own electical generating facilities. It electric and gas rates seem to be very reasonable for that area.
As with any bond/investment their is some risk that their projected income is incorrect the service will fail and the city will have to repay/default (an extremely expensive option) but given their experience with city owned utilities, they have a decided advantage over those communities that have tried FTTP as there first public utility and those that contract to an outside (public or private) entity for a muni-network.
the high density, gridded layout of the town, should make the engineering and construction fairly easy.
The demographics and location give this a very good chance of working.
This is a good investment for that particular city.
ryderuntil

join:2001-01-31
Mocksville, NC

Soon to be 3 counties

Here in Davie County NC Yadkin Valley Telephone is deploying fiber to the home as we speak. Last week they buried my cable to my home. Rumors are you can have TV, Phone and Internet. I am not sure when they will turn it on but it would seem close.
d50man

join:2002-08-27
Hickory, NC

edit:
June 24th, @09:56AM

If you guys didn't know wilson has plenty of $$$

Money talks and internet is just a utility not a luxury like some people seem to think it is.

I don't care if it 1mb or 100mb symmetrical is the future!

And i think all the rest of those money hungry isps should get on it.

McDonuts

@scml.us

7 years too late

I have had 100Mbps symmetrical service since 2001. Used to have TV over IP also, but the retards tried to skirt State laws and got shut down. It started out at $39.95 for TV+Internet, but has since gone to $51.95 for Internet (no TV available on it anymore), but I'm not complaining, since my parents pay more for 8Mbps/896k Comcast service.

»gcpud.org/customerService/services/fiber.htm

Gus2008

@Level3.net

Wilson, NC

Wilson its growing really really fast.I go there once a month, and I'll be staying in Wilson for a month in July. It's great that at least they are trying. I've been living for 7 years in the un-incorporated part of the county (harnett) and the best I can get it's 56K dial up (sat too unreliable and expensive)
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast

Time for the Rural Broadband Administration

The Rural Broadband Administration would be a government agency that would provide low interest loans to Broadband Cooperatives. It would be patterned after the Rural Electrification Administration a Government Agency that provided low interest loans to Electric Power and Telephone Cooperatives in the 1930's. The Broadband Cooperatives would install broadband networks in rural areas where most ISP's find it not economically feasible. The cooperative would lease bandwidth to service providers to carry IPTV, VoIP and Internet Access to local residents. That would solve the issue of getting service the last mile to the customer.
ILpt4U

join:2006-11-12
Crystal Lake, IL
·AT&T Yahoo


edit:
June 24th, @08:34PM

Re: Time for the Rural Broadband Administration

Do a google search for Smithville Telephone Company (STC), or merely check out the story as BBR reported: »Indiana Telco To Deploy Rural FTTH They are a primarily rural TelCo in Indiana (they are the state's #3 ILEC by # of customers behind AT&T and Verizon).

STC is getting a gov't loan from the Department of Agriculture, of all gov't agencies, to do their own version of a FiOS program -- only STC is going to eliminate the copper plant and run fiber to ALL of its customers, within the next 3 years. Granted, their subscriber base is limited to mostly rural Indiana (mostly the southern part of the state, but some northern Indiana areas too), but still, that is quite a task for a smaller TelCo player. But then again, the gov't is helping them out with a loan for the broadband deployment.

I have family that lives in a Smithville area (French Lick, the home town of Larry Bird), and they live wayyy out in the country, unable to get any type of DSL. POTS only basically. And they will have FTTP before I can get it living in suburban Chicago. Wow is all I have to say to that.
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