  danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | Sad State of Patent Office even with the new rules
Patents even with limited life are now so broad, obvious and encompass so few real products that they are used now as a business in an of themselves in shake down revenue creation vs being used to create products and markets and forming a business. | |
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 |  GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Re: Sad State of Patent Office even with the new rules And how did you think the new rules would affect things in the present?
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If you don't like the USA, then don't come here or GTFO. | |
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| | | | Re: Sad State of Patent Office even with the new rules What appallingly monochromatic thinking. Lett's try "If you love this country, work to remedy its shortcomings to elevate it to the ideal of light upon the hill". | |
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KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | How is this Legal? This would be like some relative of Willis Carrier finding out they still have an active patent for Air Conditioning and suing any building using an AC unit.
How can they legally threaten or sue someone for plugging in a box? you do not need a license from anyone to use wifi just the electronics and a power and data source.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | Re: How is this Legal? This puzzled me too.
The only thing I can think of offhand is that perhaps the company has the patent on the page that pops up on some open wi fi setups that says "Hey, you're using our wi-fi. Agree to these terms of use when you log in, and we'll let you use our wi-fi."
Still, an awful patent to issue, but, assuming that each of these companies developed their setup in-house (which is probably unlikely), I suppose it makes them sueable. | |
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|  Matt3All noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | said by Kearnstd:This would be like some relative of Willis Carrier finding out they still have an active patent for Air Conditioning and suing any building using an AC unit.
How can they legally threaten or sue someone for plugging in a box? you do not need a license from anyone to use wifi just the electronics and a power and data source.
If the patent is active and covers the technology in use, they can sue whomever is using the technique the patent covers, even an end-user.
If they really thought they could win in court and the patent validity would be upheld, they would go after the manufacturers (Cisco/Linksys, Netgear, D-Link, Belkin) but they don't have pockets that deep, so they are going after the little guys who can't afford the court system.
Not only does our patent system need reformation, (some of which was recently signed into law), but so does the civil court system. | |
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| | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: How is this Legal? said by Matt3:said by Kearnstd:This would be like some relative of Willis Carrier finding out they still have an active patent for Air Conditioning and suing any building using an AC unit.
How can they legally threaten or sue someone for plugging in a box? you do not need a license from anyone to use wifi just the electronics and a power and data source.
If the patent is active and covers the technology in use, they can sue whomever is using the technique the patent covers, even an end-user. If they really thought they could win in court and the patent validity would be upheld, they would go after the manufacturers (Cisco/Linksys, Netgear, D-Link, Belkin) but they don't have pockets that deep, so they are going after the little guys who can't afford the court system. Not only does our patent system need reformation, ( some of which was recently signed into law), but so does the civil court system. I think If I got Sued for the router I ordered from Newegg id tell them to shove it up their ass and not pay em a cent unless they actually came to an NJ court and sued me. in which case it would have authority.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Re: How is this Legal? You'd be indemnified anyway. The UCC covers you in this area.
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If you don't like the USA, then don't come here or GTFO. | |
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| | | |  AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1 | Re: How is this Legal? indemnified by who? | |
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| | | | | GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Re: How is this Legal? The manufacturer of the device. | |
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| | | How can they legally? I have no clue. Of course, the *reason* behind it is that they can bully small businesses who have purchased an off-the-shelf wi-fi router into settling out of court since it would be cheaper than fighting a long legal battle. (See: RIAA settlements.)
If they went right after Linksys, Apple and other companies that make wi-fi devices, they'd quickly find themselves ground into patent troll dust.
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-Jason Levine | |
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| | AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1 | Re: How is this Legal? said by Jason Levine:If they went right after Linksys, Apple and other companies that make wi-fi devices, they'd quickly find themselves ground into patent troll dust.
you understand why it is incumbent on the hardware manufacturers to defend the product users.
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Standard disclaimers apply.
Atomic batteries to power. Turbines to speed. | |
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|  syslockPremium
join:2007-02-03
Honolulu, HI | First thing I though of when I read this...
The goon squad at ASCAP does the same thing.
I was in your place of business...
Now pay up! | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |  You Know...
We live in a day and age where these parasites can break the average person financially because of flimsy patent law and a near-useless patent office. Given how vast our Wifi-using population is, it isn't unrealistic to believe that there's at least one person out there who might think that shooting up a gang of patent thugs might be more fun than paying a $5000 settlement.
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| | | Re: You Know... I saw a comment on slashdot on this very subject that suggested it would just be cheaper to put a 'hit' out on patent trolls. These patent troll lawsuits get more absurd even when you think they've scraped the barrell of absurdity already. | |
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| | Reviews:
 ·World Lynx
 ·Cox HSI
| Re: You Know... said by oracle2b:I saw a comment on slashdot on this very subject that suggested it would just be cheaper to put a 'hit' out on patent trolls. These patent troll lawsuits get more absurd even when you think they've scraped the barrell of absurdity already.
Agreed.....about every other response was pretty much along those veins.....that discussion was getting pretty dark in some places...  | |
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| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: You Know... said by N10Cities:Agreed.....about every other response was pretty much along those veins.....that discussion was getting pretty dark in some places... That's a risk you take with going after individual users who may be in a position where they have nothing left to lose. For corporations, sure dealing with such lawsuits is easy, you come to a settlement, cut some checks, everyone is happy.
But for individuals, being asked to fork over a multithousand dollar check in exchange for not being sued is a going to rub a lot of people the wrong way... if one of those people happens to be one of those which feels he has nothing left to lose... watch out!
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| | | | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: You Know... This is why they wont go after an actual person and instead go after hotels and coffee shops, because the typical homeowner would throw the letter out seeing as a scam. and what can this company do about that? not much really because they would have a hard time finding a judge with authority in that person's state that would let them sue a home owner for buying a router at best buy.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | | | GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Re: You Know... You don't need to find a judge with authority in the state. Patents are a federal matter.
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If you don't like the USA, then don't come here or GTFO. | |
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| | | | Reviews:
 ·MetConnect
| I would love to see something like that in the news, if someones gonna go postal let in be on some greedy SOBs that got in comming to 'em This could send a MSG to the others. Then let karma send cops to the scence that know the situation and do a slop job on purpose investigating it.  | |
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| Reviews:
·World Lynx
·Cox HSI
| said by pnh102:One of these days, I can see these people attempting to sue the "wrong" people... and the response will not be the most "legal" of approaches.
We live in a day and age where these parasites can break the average person financially because of flimsy patent law and a near-useless patent office. Given how vast our Wifi-using population is, it isn't unrealistic to believe that there's at least one person out there who might think that shooting up a gang of patent thugs might be more fun than paying a $5000 settlement.
Agreed....I am afraid that someone will try to serve papers on an 'infringer' and they will get to re-enact that scene in "Ace Ventura - Pet Detective" when Ace goes to Ray Finkle's house and asks for him... | |
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| | Reviews:
·MetConnect
| Re: You Know... I'm back from slashdot......This one was my favorite commentAsk to meet all their top executives of this cesspool, take them out on a rented yacht. Insure it to high hell. Take it off the coast of Mexico, and inform the local drug cartel that a bunch of wealthy gringos are meeting to figure out a way bomb them off the face of the earth, then over take their drug business. After the smoke, screaming and mutilation stop... go collect your insurance, pay off the boat owner, and pocket the remainder. Inform the U.S. justice system that Mexican Drug Lords have murdered American national. Let Karma play out and consider justice has been dispensed on all fronts. Building a better world one elimination at a time!" | |
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| | | GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 | Re: You Know... Hmmm, they sound like a bunch of 8 year olds. My son talks the same way.
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If you don't like the USA, then don't come here or GTFO. | |
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| | that's it... Time to get my lawyers working on sueing everyone that uses the shift button on a computer, I patented that technology way back in the seventies...each settlement will 1,000,000 pesos. | |
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ssavoyPremium
join:2007-08-16
Dallas, PA Reviews:
·Comcast
| Ridiculous Why don't they go after the supplier of the products instead? Hotels, coffee shops and the works buy guest WiFi authentication products from Cisco, etc BECAUSE it wouldn't be worth it to build one themselves. Going after the users instead of the company producing the equipment is kind of ridiculous - they are clearly out there to scoop up as much money as possible. | |
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|  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
1 edit | Re: Ridiculous said by ssavoy:they are clearly out there to scoop up as much money as possible. A business company trying to make as much money as possible. News at 11. | |
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| | | | Re: Ridiculous Classifying Innovatio as a "business" is debatable. | |
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| | | cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Re: Ridiculous said by milrtime83:Classifying Innovatio as a "business" is debatable. Good point. "Company" is probably better. | |
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| | | | | | Re: Ridiculous It's like three lawyers in an office being obnoxious. You're still being too generous. | |
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| | ssavoyPremium
join:2007-08-16
Dallas, PA Reviews:
·Comcast
| I mean this in the context of going around settling for thousands of $$$ rather than going to Cisco or whoever actually makes the equipment to settle. They can make more money this way; that's why they're a patent troll and not actually a "company" that has legitimate reasons for suing. They know the little guys using the equipment don't have the legal power to fight them. | |
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| | | They won't go after the makers of the products because they can't bully a company like Cisco or Apple. If they tried, they'd be quickly overpowered by those companies' legal teams. So they instead focus on small targets who are more likely to settle to make the lawsuit go away quickly rather than invest a lot of time and money into a legal battle.
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-Jason Levine | |
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| | Reviews:
·World Lynx
·Cox HSI
| Re: Ridiculous said by Jason Levine:They won't go after the makers of the products because they can't bully a company like Cisco or Apple. If they tried, they'd be quickly overpowered by those companies' legal teams. So they instead focus on small targets who are more likely to settle to make the lawsuit go away quickly rather than invest a lot of time and money into a legal battle.
If I recall the original article, Cisco and another vendor have already counter-sued or at least filed to have their patents invalidated.. | |
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| | | | | Re: Ridiculous Yes, it appears that Cisco and Motorola have taken a legal stand against this patent troll. It means that the troll's strategy of avoiding the big guys and going after the small businesses might have failed. (One can only hope.)
There's really got to be some sort of legal remedy to the "extortion" cases we've seen recently. Whether it be due to copyright or patents, the "we claim you've done X wrong now settle for $2K-$5K or spend tons more defending yourself" shouldn't be allowed to be a business model.
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-Jason Levine | |
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|  LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | Re: Don't blame the patent system, blame crooked lawyers! The judges are lawyers too. The civil law system in the US is a racket aided and abetted by the ABA. Most cases should be thrown out by a judge without even a hearing. But that would result in less jobs for all the lowlifes graduating from the law schools.
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»www.rickperry.org/ | |
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 PToN
join:2001-10-04
Houston, TX | F* it... F*ck it... Let him sue me... | |
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| | They are too lazy to get a real job!!! I guess they need to sue the government too, they use WI-fi all around DC, oh wait, they are getting paid to pass these laws, I guess they all are crooks! | |
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Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA | This could get violent! What is going to happen when Innovatio attempts this legal extortion against some coffee shop that has paid the mob protection money? | |
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| | | Re: This could get violent! I would pay for tickets to that show! | |
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GooberPremium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5 Reviews:
 ·Dish Network
| Something to consider There are a couple (at least) of possible reasons for going after individual users.
First, if you go after the manufacturers, you certainly will get a harder fight. But, if you license them, then typically those licensing rights then extend to the end user by doctrine of patent exhaustion. So the question then becomes, where do you make the most money?
Second, by attacking the end users, you force payment from them. It's then up to the end user to seek indemnification from the manufacturer. You as a consumer are typically protected from patent squabbles because of the UCC. But, the troll gets their money quickly while you have to fight the equipment maker.
Also, by not suing the patent holder, you as the troll don't have to deal with a possible declaratory judgement proceeding where your patent may be held invalid.
My guess is that once September 16th rolls around, we'll likely see a slow decline in the troll patent infringement cases. At that time, several mechanisms kick in to challenge patents either pre or post grant that weren't available before. It'll take time, but the decrease should start about then.
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If you don't like the USA, then don't come here or GTFO. | |
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| | | Re: Something to consider I do agree, but i would love them to try, think of this, how many people in a court room, jury, judge, lawyers, don't all ready own a router with WI-fi? who's going to convict, the end user no matter what the product, we need to start fighting back. Of course if common sense is on your side, that's the problem in this county, there's no common sense left only greed. | |
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 TwiztedZeroNine Zero Burp Nine SixPremium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:3 | Innovatio Go Home. Twist off their puny little heads. Innovatio won't get squat. | |
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 Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | I'm suing everyone for owning a DVD.. ..because I came up with an idea of putting high quality movies on a CD-sized disc back in 1992. I was 15 back then. | |
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| | Reminds me of the 70's or 80's When dish and microwave TV had just come out.
The vendors would drive thru neighborhoods and send bills to anyone who anything resembling a dish or UHF antenna on their roofs or towers.
Don't recall how that played out, but it was similar to what is going on today. | |
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| | my solution my solution to all this tomfoolery is to patent the process of patent trolling. Then, the patent trolls will have to license the process, from ME!
Perhaps a patent on the process of sueing groups of people?
This is getting about as foolish as the clown who managed to get the copyrights on the traditional "Happy Birthday" song. Reminds me of the asshat in Texas who registered a TON of company names, created "It doesn't really matter" Long-Distance. He made oodles of money for years on collect calling, all because people would NOT specify a known carrier.
"transferring you to 'just pick one' long-distance. please hold" | |
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 GlobalMindDomino Dude, POWER Systems GuyPremium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL | Classic Of course it's a shakedown. They go after smaller businesses and franchises and scare them into settling.
I DARE them to go after a real, big corporate install. Go into Apple or IBM or Microsoft & Google and tell them they have to pay up for using Wi-fi in the office. DARE them.
Whatever patents they think they have over wi-fi technology, it would be up to the manufacturers to license that patent for use in the device.
This isn't the end user's problem here any more than it would be valid for Apple to sue anyone who owns an Android device if they get an injunction against them.
If ultimately challenged in court by an entity with the pocketbook to fight it properly the troll will lose their pants.
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TheGlobalMind.com / Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? / Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson / Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity. | |
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 SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2 | I'd blow them off... Under the defense I am using a product that was by all counts, cleared when I bought it, including several FCC licenses. Why should I turn off APs that I consumed as a consumer, due to possible failures by the entities that I bought from. They never stopped us from using the trolled to death OS X, Windows, iOS, Android, and many others. The companies had to settle the dispute and pay fines. | |
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| | This Is Absurd! the manufacturers have the patents! every router i bought had the patent number of the router on it, so the manufacturers already have a patent on it, it can't be patented twice, one for each company that made the device, and another that may have had the overall idea!. something isn't right here, the patent office checks for duplication!. if the manufacturers have their devices patented, i don't see how this lawsuit could be legal!. | |
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| | Smash and Burn Sounds like just the kind of company who's HQ should be SMASHED AND BURNED in the upcoming riots. | |
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Trolling would not be possible if our legal system was not created by and for the benefit of lawyers. Trolling whether it be copyright, patient or other type can take place because any scumbag lawyer can file a case against anyone for the most frivolous of reason. If the defendant does not respond the judge will find for the plaintiff even if the case has no basis.