 | | idea how about it only turns on the hackable portion at secret intervals that only the utility company knows?
ie. when it is time to read the meter | |
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 RoboticsSee You On The Dark SidePremium
join:2003-10-23
Louisa, VA | Wow This is interesting. Never even thought this could happen | |
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| | so? Most burglars wont take the time to do this. Most people who rob your home are drug addicts looking for something to sell for more drug money. very few burglars are people who know what they are doing. | |
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 |  CabalPremium
join:2007-01-21
Austin, TX | Re: so? Not to mention, it's a lot easier to watch your house for a car leaving than to hack into your electric meter.
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If you can't open it, you don't own it. | |
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BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey Reviews:
 ·Optimum Online
| Stupidest story of the year My 6 kW air-conditioner runs when I'm not home, and is sometimes not running when I am home. So the data is useless.
Also, how do they know which meter is at which house? After collecting data from 500 electric meters, they're going to walk around comparing meter numbers?
FUD! | |
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| Reviews:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Stupidest story of the year said by Bob:My 6 kW air-conditioner runs when I'm not home, and is sometimes not running when I am home. So the data is useless. Not only that, but all "vampire" devices will cause a continuous draw. Refrigerators turn on and off. One simply can't tell the difference between a place where owners are at home and a place where they aren't from the average use in 3-5 min intervals.
Those who are in "business" use a different approach: they call the phone that many still have. Reverse search is easy... Or they watch the lights. Automated timers can help a bit but not everywhere. They look for mail piling, garbage cans not being present on the collection day or being brought before the collection day (sign that they won't be home). | |
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| |  RickNYPremium
join:2000-11-02
Manorville, NY | Re: Stupidest story of the year said by cowboyro:One simply can't tell the difference between a place where owners are at home and a place where they aren't from the average use in 3-5 min intervals. Don't be so sure... The regular spikes are the fridge cycling.. Can you tell when I was home and when I wasn't? | |
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| | | Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Stupidest story of the year said by RickNY:said by cowboyro:One simply can't tell the difference between a place where owners are at home and a place where they aren't from the average use in 3-5 min intervals. Don't be so sure... The regular spikes are the fridge cycling.. Can you tell when I was home and when I wasn't? No... There are many things that can produce such a pattern. Hot tub, electric water heater, HVAC blower, radiant floor heater... | |
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| | | | Reviews:
 ·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Stupidest story of the year All of the items you just listed would account for more than 200 watts of increased draw. 200 watts is about right for the lighting/tv/PC monitors/etc that would come on when someone is home.
I have my own issues with smart meters, specifically the fact that they give the electric company too much information about me, and will doubtless eventually be used by them and/or the nanny state to raise rates in a misguided attempt to modify my behavior. Dial meters and/or simple digital ones (e.g., ones with remote read functionality but without demand billing/logging features) are preferable. Residential usage is predictable and easy to plan for, there is no reason why my utility needs to track my demand in five minute intervals. There is no reason why they need to know which appliances I have hooked up or how I use them. Bill me per kWh, plus a base fee for the meter, and leave me the hell alone. | |
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| | | | | BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Stupidest story of the year said by Crookshanks:there is no reason why my utility needs to track my demand in five minute intervals. Two words: Outage detection. | |
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| | | | | | Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Stupidest story of the year Two problems:
1) Outage detection has been done at the substation level for decades and does not require smart meters at every residence.
2) Outage detection on a per-residence basis does not imply a need to track demand. A simple ping would suffice. | |
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| | | | | | | Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Stupidest story of the year said by Crookshanks: Outage detection on a per-residence basis does not imply a need to track demand. A simple ping would suffice. It's not only outage detection. It's also determining abnormal dangerous conditions in real-time. Ex a leg gone, overvoltage or undervoltage caused by a failing transformer or connection... | |
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| | | | | | | BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey | If a tree falls or a transformer goes and takes out 3 customers, the power company will know about it immediately. | |
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| | | | | |  skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Two words: DEMAND CHARGE
Gouge customers for peak demand. | |
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| | | | | | said by cowboyro:said by RickNY:said by cowboyro:One simply can't tell the difference between a place where owners are at home and a place where they aren't from the average use in 3-5 min intervals. Don't be so sure... The regular spikes are the fridge cycling.. Can you tell when I was home and when I wasn't? No... There are many things that can produce such a pattern. Hot tub, electric water heater, HVAC blower, radiant floor heater... Or you could be like me and have numerous computer devices running when you are not home; i.e.: the x86 pfsense box in my basement, the custom built dual qam, dual ota tuner media center (connected to a hava box and Dish ViP722), the file server with multiple hdds...
Then there is the water heater and heat that runs off the oil burner...
Eh, this doesn't seem practical. | |
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| | |  MajestikWorld TravelerPremium
join:2001-05-11
Tulsa, OK
1 edit | said by RickNY:said by cowboyro:One simply can't tell the difference between a place where owners are at home and a place where they aren't from the average use in 3-5 min intervals. Don't be so sure... The regular spikes are the fridge cycling.. Can you tell when I was home and when I wasn't? I control items in my home remotely like DVR/tuner,computer,Slingbox,heat and air,security system,indoor/outdoor lights,and surveillance cameras from my phone or iPad from anywhere in the world.
Then throw in the gate entry/security personnel on the property just to get to my home.
There are times when I probably use even less electricity when at home than not at home in the spring and fall or when working 12 hours a day 7 days a week.
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The adventure continues...Sanctuary.... | |
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| | | this time of year, the air conditioner isn't going to be running much anymore! | |
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| |  MOWAA
join:2010-03-25
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: Stupidest story of the year said by talz13:this time of year, the air conditioner isn't going to be running much anymore!
Us folks in Florida run our A/C "24/7 365" in most cases.
Even in the winter time here, my A/C is set for 74 degrees and in the summer 65 degrees. | |
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| | | | | Re: Stupidest story of the year said by MOWAA:said by talz13:this time of year, the air conditioner isn't going to be running much anymore!
Us folks in Florida run our A/C "24/7 365" in most cases. Even in the winter time here, my A/C is set for 74 degrees and in the summer 65 degrees. From my seven years spent living in Miami, allow me to testify to this fact. | |
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| | | | MOWAA
join:2010-03-25
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: Stupidest story of the year said by PapaMidnight:From my seven years spent living in Miami, allow me to testify to this fact.
Yeah we really only have two seasons, HOT and F*ing HOT | |
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| | | | | The poster I replied to is from NJ! I don't think he'll need any help to keep his house below 74F | |
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| | | | BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey | Re: Stupidest story of the year Regardless, no burglar is going to be using this method to pick targets. | |
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| | Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by talz13:this time of year, the air conditioner isn't going to be running much anymore!
But the heat pump will  | |
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| Reviews:
·Comcast
| 6 KWh AC unit? wow time to upgrade! Our old 7SEER AC unit used about 7KWh we replaced that with a new Trane XL20i 4 Ton unit and it uses a whole 2.5KWh now and cycles to half power and runs at 2Tons to maintain at about 1.8KWh (wattage includes the furnace air handler unit running) | |
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| | BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey | Re: Stupidest story of the year Can't afford it. Give me $9,000 and I'll upgrade. | |
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| | | | | Re: Stupidest story of the year Maybe A/C compressors are cheaper in Iowa but I paid $900 for a 2.5 ton 14 SEER compressor and $350 for installation by a commercial installer who does lots of HVAC work at my employer (good quality) including having him run new electrical and a switch off on the line. Cut my summer time energy usage down to 1/3 what it was previously. | |
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 mobOn the next level..Premium
join:2000-10-07 | LOL I love how they cannot name the manufacturer of the meters. And a grand is way too much to spend on RF gear, if you know what you're doing.
Of course, I read millions of meters every night at my job..... | |
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|  phxmarkWhat Country Are We Living In?
join:2000-12-27
Glendale, AZ | Re: LOL Elster is one of the larger meter manufactures that come to mind.
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High speed is dangerous. Too many MP3s, not enough time. | |
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Reviews:
·Comcast
·Frontier Communi..
| Pure FUD There is a large piece of machinery that most american adults own and the presence of which helps burglars determine whether or not you are home... It's called an automobile. Most houses have a button that when pressed will also aide a burglar in determining if your are home... The doorbell. There are also devices installed in your home that help burglars determine if you are home after dark. They are called lights.
The average burglar is not a fiendish lock picking cat burglar that dodges lasers to steal the hope diamond like you see in the movies. They are largely uneducated drug addicts that will throw a brick through your window to get in, steal your stuff, and fence it for pennies on the dollar to buy their next hit. | |
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pkorx8
join:2003-06-19
San Francisco, CA Reviews:
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET
| wow Who is expecting the robber to be a high tech hacker genius?
from the latest stories I'm finding, most robbers don't even turn off a cell phone after snatching a cell phone.
The story stated "using just $1,000 of gear...".... really? !? The robber is most likely to get robbed if he is roaming around a neighbor with $1k worth of flashy high-tech gear! | |
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 Anonymous_AnonymousPremium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
1 edit | New lawsuit stream this could make Power co's liable as well
Aiding & Abetting Criminal | |
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|  93388818It's cool, I'm takin it backPremium
join:2000-03-14
Dallas, TX | Re: New lawsuit stream aiding and what? | |
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| | Anonymous_AnonymousPremium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2 | Re: New lawsuit stream Aiding & Abetting Criminal | |
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| | Nothing to See Here...Move Along The technology described in the article (walk-by, drive-by AMR) is OLD technology which has been is use at utilities for over 20 years. To my knowledge burglars have not yet exploited this technology to determine when a homeowner is home. As stated in the article, there are lots of easier ways for burglars to detect the presence of a homeowner than hacking into their meter's radio transmissions.
By the way, newer smart meters are much more hacker proof than this old technology. Most newer meters don't use WiFi but instead use a proprietary radio communications which is typically encrypted using AES 128 bit encryption. So, again, there are much easier ways for burglars to determine if you are home than attempting to hack into these transmissions. | |
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tkdslr
join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
·Speakeasy
1 edit | Burglars.. theives.. Utilities are the biggest ones of all.. Yup... smart meters can be programmed to rip you off..
I know the ones deployed in FPL's service area have the rip-off mode enabled as a default.
I.E.. Double bill for reactive loads(transformers) which return power back to the grid.. (Instead of crediting for returned power, they bill you for it, again.)
Besides that and the privacy issue..
Smart Meters can remotely shutoff a customers power at any time..
This makes them vulnerable to hackers and hostile acts/governments.
Imagine enemy agents deploying a few dozen radios.. Commanding all the smart meters in their area to turn on and off the power in sync.. 5 seconds on. 5 seconds off.. Such variations in load would quickly destroy the power station generators and other infrastructure.. thus collapsing the grid without firing a shot.
Me personally.. I refused the installation of a smart meter.. I don't like taking stupid risks like that.. I.E. You're on trip away from home for a few days and someone commands the meter to shut off for a couple of days... then turns it back on.. no one would be the wiser.
Your freezer and frig contents would be ruined.
Same goes for alarm systems, after a day or two with no grid.. no more battery power, no alarm. And your neighbors wouldn't have a clue(as their power remained on). | |
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| | | Re: Burglars.. theives.. Utilities are the biggest ones of all.. said by tkdslr:Yup... smart meters can be programmed to rip you off..
I know the ones deployed in FPL's service area have the rip-off mode enabled as a default.
I.E.. Double bill for reactive loads(transformers) which return power back to the grid.. (Instead of crediting for returned power, they bill you for it, again.)
Besides that and the privacy issue..
Smart Meters can remotely shutoff a customers power at any time..
This makes them vulnerable to hackers and hostile acts/governments.
Imagine enemy agents deploying a few dozen radios.. Commanding all the smart meters in their area to turn on and off the power in sync.. 5 seconds on. 5 seconds off.. Such variations in load would quickly destroy the power station generators and other infrastructure.. thus collapsing the grid without firing a shot.
Me personally.. I refused the installation of a smart meter.. I don't like taking stupid risks like that.. I.E. You're on trip away from home for a few days and someone commands the meter to shut off for a couple of days... then turns it back on.. Know one would be the wiser.
Your freezer and frig contents would be ruined.
Same goes for alarm systems, after a day or two with no grid.. no more battery power, no alarm. And your neighbors wouldn't have a clue(as their power remained on).
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|  Oh_NoTrogglus normalus
join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL | said by tkdslr:Yup... smart meters can be programmed to rip you off..
I know the ones deployed in FPL's service area have the rip-off mode enabled as a default.
I.E.. Double bill for reactive loads(transformers) which return power back to the grid.. (Instead of crediting for returned power, they bill you for it, again.)
Besides that and the privacy issue..
Smart Meters can remotely shutoff a customers power at any time..
This makes them vulnerable to hackers and hostile acts/governments.
Imagine enemy agents deploying a few dozen radios.. Commanding all the smart meters in their area to turn on and off the power in sync.. 5 seconds on. 5 seconds off.. Such variations in load would quickly destroy the power station generators and other infrastructure.. thus collapsing the grid without firing a shot.
Me personally.. I refused the installation of a smart meter.. I don't like taking stupid risks like that.. I.E. You're on trip away from home for a few days and someone commands the meter to shut off for a couple of days... then turns it back on.. Know one would be the wiser.
Your freezer and frig contents would be ruined.
Same goes for alarm systems, after a day or two with no grid.. no more battery power, no alarm. And your neighbors wouldn't have a clue(as their power remained on).
Smart meters make sense only if they do not have the capability to shut off or turn on the power. They should be only for data collection only. Only capable of sending a signal not receiving. This should be limited by hardware not software.
99% of the customers never have their power turned off.
Only "known" bad customers should have a different smart meter that can be remotely turned off. | |
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| | | said by tkdslr :
Besides that and the privacy issue..
Smart Meters can remotely shutoff a customers power at any time..
This makes them vulnerable to hackers and hostile acts/governments.
Until the hackers learn how to send remote disconnect commands the threat of remote disconnect will come from corporate intransigence. Somewhere on this site is someone in Las Vegas who got remote disconnected because the power company's billing system couldn't be convinced that it made a billing error. Every bill-paying adult eventually has a fight with a corporate billing system that insists on being wrong and the CS reps who are dumber than the voice response system.
WRT privacy, it won't be hackers with $1,000 worth of gear. It'll be the utility's lame ass web site where customer's are supposed to go to see all the meter readings the smartmeter has been beaming around the neighborhood. It's not like web sites that served up anyone's data just for asking have never happened before. And web services are not a utility's core competency. Hell, utilities struggle to be even be competent at their core competency. | |
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 IowaCowboyWant to go back to IowaPremium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
·Comcast
·Verizon Broadban..
| Northeast Utilities Northeast Utilities uses a meter that is read by a radio installed in a utility vehicle, which allows them to read meters that are in yards with locked gates or dogs. They record total usage but not real time usage (although they use smart meters in medium to large commercial and industrial that record usage and load in 15 minute increments but they have to drive by with their radio vehicle to extract the data). Many of their meters are analog meters retrofitted with digital transmitters in them.
I think they need an FCC license to transmit/receive on the frequency the meter uses.
I like how they read the meters from their vans as they don't damage your flower beds or slip n' fall (and associated homeowner liability) from meter readers entering yards.
The city water department uses remote read meters as well that can be read by driving by. I think the gas utility does the same as well.
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Romney-Ryan and Scott Brown are the Right Choice as they are Hope & Change you can count on. | |
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| | Time of Day Billing Main reason for smart meters is that it allows time of day billing. You will get to pay more for electricity used in the middle of the day than at night. Also the meter keeps track of the highest (peak kW or kVA) demand and you can be charged for that too. The rest of the talk is all smoke and mirrors. You have been warned.
I be an electrical engineer in the power business. | |
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| | Smartmeter fee. Also what about water utility meters? What makes matters worse is I'm being charged monthly for a Smartmeter fee. Though I do not even have a smartmeter!
Wonder why the electric utilities are just using smart meters now? The water company has been remotely reading water meters for years now.
Though they still have to physically use the long keyed sticks to turn on/off water at the valves in the street. Maybe that's the difference why they aren't under as much fire as the electric companies? They don't charge a smart meter fee either. | |
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| | | Re: Smartmeter fee. Also what about water utility meters? This is assuming the burglers have a brain, which is rarely the case. | |
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 aefstoggaflmOpen Source FanPremium
join:2002-03-04
Bethlehem, PA
kudos:2
·Verizon Online DSL
| Not Electricity OR not only Electricity? Perhaps they meant, not the electricity meter?
For example the water usage.
Perhaps they meant, not the only electricity meter?
For example the water usage, gas usage and electricity usage.
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Please use the "yellow (IM) envelope" to contact me and please leave the URL intact. | |
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skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Or they can just watch them go to work... Daylight burglaries happened before smart meters and will have after smart meters.
Dumb story. | |
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