We Talk To Verizon About Forced DSL to FiOS Upgrades( old news - 05:14PM Wednesday Nov 14 2007) tags: Fiber · competition · coverage · business · telco · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSLWe've talked with Verizon concerning reports yesterday that suggested the company had changed their TOS, with the goal of forcing DSL users in FiOS territory to upgrade. Obviously that might not be in the best interest of a customer who doesn't need that much bandwidth, and signed up for Verizon's $15 "for life" DSL plan. The portion of the company's TOS that raised alarms: At such time as Verizon is able to provision the Service utilizing fiber optic technologies, we may in our discretion terminate your DSL Service and no longer make DSL service available to your location. In cases of such termination, we will offer to you Verizon Fios Internet Service and we will disclose to you applicable rates and additional terms, if any, and such rates and terms may differ from the DSL Services provided under this Agreement. According to Verizon spokesperson Bobbi Henson, this portion of Verizon's TOS is not new. In fact, she notes, the language has been in place since March of 2005. Given that the language is old, it's clearly not part of any new push to bump customers from DSL to FiOS against their will. As we mentioned yesterday, fiber is cheaper to maintain than copper, so it's in Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.  We don't want to be stuck using an older technology if a new one is available -- so in our TOS we reserve the option to change technologies. -Verizon's Bobbi Henson |
"At some point we might want to upgrade the technology in a town or neighborhood to provide improved service," Henson says. "We don't want to be stuck using an older technology if a new one is available -- so in our TOS we reserve the option to change technologies.""Obviously, at such a time, a customer would have the option, within the terms of whatever contract they might have with us, of moving to some other provider, discontinuing service or sticking with Verizon," says Henson. Verizon made it clear they'll honor contracts -- our guess being they'll make stubborn DSL users an introductory FiOS offer they can't refuse (literally) -- when they become eager to get users off the copper infrastructure. Still, it does raise the question of what happens to "for life" customers who are happy with slower (and cheaper) DSL. Will Verizon offer them the same speed at the same price, but offer it via fiber? Yeah 768kbps via fiber sounds silly, but it might not to Grandma -- particularly for fifteen bucks. Henson didn't want to speculate on future Verizon actions, though she did note that "if the time ever came when this situation occurred, we'd evaluate what's fair for all concerned and then do that. Our goal would be to provide great service and retain and grow customers for Verizon."
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| For Life quote:
Verizon made it clear they'll honor contracts -- our guess being they'll offer introductory FiOS deals when DSL contracts expire. Still, it does raise the question of what happens to "for life" customers who are happy with slower (and cheaper) DSL. Will Verizon offer them the same speed at the same price, but offer it via fiber?
Why don't you ask any Tivo owner who purchased a "For Life" subscription for guide updates. "For Life" is for the life of the product. In Tivo's case, it's that DVR. For Verizon's case, it's the life of DSL service.
Sure it's not what the consumer wants to hear. And I bet 99% of those subscribers that purchased the "For Life" service expected it to be that way forever. I'm just telling you what the Verizon Lawyers are going to say. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ | Re: For Life The price is for the life of the service. The service itself isn't for life. | |
| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: For Life Correct!
I am on Comcast Digital Phone.. I love the service.. my price is set for life, but the life of the service is about to end on January 10th, 2008 in the Minneapolis/St Paul metro.. so I either take CDV, which is a lesser class of service for me, OR, I chose another provider.
Nothing in life is going to be forever.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
| | | 
Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Really now? said by GOLFnSUN  :The price is for the life of the service. The service itself isn't for life. I went through the deal details and you are fully correct. I did, however have to GET to the details page before the truth was manifest.
I do have a problem or two, as always.
Regarding said by GOLFnSUN :...the life of the service .... which part of the service is alive?
If you poll the collective American consumer and inform them "Hey! You'll get free service for life! All you have to do is commit to not dump the service for two years. Pretty sweet huh?"
You could even hand them an envelope ("here, hold this for me") that said TERMS in small red print in the lower left hand corner.
Then ask them "Wow. Free service for life. So, uh, about how long would you say that might be for you?"
Don't you believe that the VAST majority of American Consumers would provide you an answer based on their age?
So does Verizon.
Now compare.
Service for Life!
Service for however long we decide to make it available to you.
Regarding the Verizon offer;
Which one of those banners leads a customer to an accurate representation of the product as presented?
Which one of those banners leads the customer somewhere else?
If you're tempted to go with the Every Other Corp is Doing it. argument, substitute File Sharing
for whatever it is
that is ethical when done in mass
and see if the reasoning continues to stand on it's own.
My point in all of this?
Verizon's Service for Life offer would pass the truth detector in a courtroom,
the board room,
the corporate shill generation room
and nowhere else; such as the world the rest of us live in.
If you're still a fan of this marketing technique, why not use the same ethics with your children?
"Of course I said I'd love you no matter what son. If you were a child who happened to take the time to educate yourself, you would know that nomatterwhat is an obscure 4th century Finnish term meaning Unless you get sick and I have to miss the football game to get you to the hospital. You really should read the Family Fine Print Encyclopedia some time."
NV
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My children used to Speak in Tongues. But after years of Speech Therapy, English is their First Language!
edited for shillings! | |
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elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. do you really NEED another choice with FiOS verizon can cut my copper POTS line any day
id sell a kidney for 20/20 FiOS | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. said by elios :do you really NEED another choice with FiOS verizon can cut my copper POTS line any day id sell a kidney for 20/20 FiOS id sell a kidney for any speed of FiOS.
Verizon show us no love in qwestland. 
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. You can have one of my kidneys.
But I'm keepin' my FiOS.
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | When you are talking about people only spending $15-$20/month at 768, yeah they do need another choice. No FIOS plans that cheap, are there? | |
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elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. i dont see why Verizon cant just keep them on that speed plan on the fiber then | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. That would be fine, but then they'd have to offer it up to everyone else as well. I don't think they want to offer up any FIOS plan for $15, no matter the speed. They need to make money back for the huge investment they are making, and offering low cost packages won't do it for them. Maybe once they start showing a profit on FIOS you might see budget plans, but not until at least then. | |
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elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO
·Mediacom
| Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. true but i wouldnt want less then 1.5Mbps any way and dont know why any one would you cant really do any thing with it
i guess if all you do is check your e-mail then its fine but you can do with 56k
but yes maybe verizon should offer a 20-25 buck 1.5/128 plan
even a 30 buck 1.5/1.5 would be fine for most | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. They're cheapest plan is $40 for 10/2. That's the price point they need to be at right now to get a return on deployment. Most people don't need that much speed, so if the offer a lower package, most would go with that. So the end up not making back the money they need. Right now it's cheaper for them to give more speed than offer lower, cheaper packages. | |
| | | | | | | rebus9
join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
 ·Verizon FIOS
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | said by elios :true but i wouldnt want less then 1.5Mbps any way and dont know why any one would you cant really do any thing with it Well, that depends on your point of view. This past weekend Road Runner had a rare (for us) outage that lasted almost all day Sunday.
My neighbor on FIOS gave me his wireless SSID and WEP key so I could use his connection while mine was down. He has 10/2 but with the (weak marginal) signal from 2 houses away, I could barely get 1.0 Mbps. Still, 1 megabit is like heaven when you have no other option, and my wife and I surfed the web just fine all day with no complaints.
Let's be real about this.
768k or 1.5 Mbps service is great for normal web & email users like our parents and co-workers. By "normal", I mean NOT rabid YouTube fans, P2P, Usenet, and other bandwidth hogs like most of us on these forums. We love our internet and are addicted to downloads. Normal users have no clue, and no desire, to download Terabytes of data each year.
I'd die on 3 Mbps DSL and my 7 Mbps Road Runner seems more inadequate each day. But I was perfectly happy on 1.0 Mbps when I limited myself to just web and email that day.
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| | | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| If they offered the DSL customers a chance to move to FiOS for the same price, package and everything else- they would not have to offer it to everyone else; especially if the customer has a "for-life" deal. The deal would only be for those customers and it would say that. They would simply have a sign-up code or flag your account or something to know who you are verse another customer wanting the plan; it simply would not show up in whats available at the other address. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. That would be a billing nightmare. They have enough billing problems with FIOS as it is. And it would only be a matter of time before it got out and then everyone else would be pissed off. Sorry, FIOS is not a budget service, and there is no reason for them to offer it as such. They have sunk BILLIONS into it. Why would they offer DSL users a cheap rate? Where do you think most of the FIOS users will be coming from? So they deploy this great new upgraded system and bill all of their current customers the same? Where's the ROI? They NEED to charge more than they currently do for DSL to pay for it, plain and simple, or they won't survive. If they do away with DSL, those people have two options. Go to FIOS and pay more a month or go to cable and pay more a month. Guess which still comes in the cheapest? Not cable. | |
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Bobjohnson1
@opera-mini.net | I'm sure that they would use a plan like that for retention, then they wouldn't have to offer it to everyone. $15 would be a better return on the investment than 0. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. No, it wouldn't. Even if you lost half of your customers and the other half switch to a service that's almost 3x the price, you're already making more money than with all of them at $15. Given the cost of any other alternative would be even more than the cheapest FIOS offering, you would probably be able to keep more than half of them, so now they are really getting a return on their investment. A quick run of the numbers shows that you would only need to switch 37.5% from $15/month to $40/month to break even. And once it became public that they were offering a $15 FIOS plan, more people would demand it and get it. Sorry, the numbers just don't play out into their favor that way. Look how long it took for low cost DSL plans. Almost at the end of it's life when it was starting to be replaced. It won't happen for any reason. | |
| | | boober321
join:2003-07-15
Milwaukee, WI
 ·ViaTalk
| said by elios :do you really NEED another choice with FiOS verizon can cut my copper POTS line any day id sell a kidney for 20/20 FiOS A rather narrow and small minded comment. Sure they can cut you copper, and then they can jack up your internet prices to $75/month... and oh, BTW- you also must use OUR telephone service for $50/mo. Nothing like a monopoly to make competition obsolete. If Verizon is removing the copper, then they should be FORCED to allow competitors to buy space, just like on DSL lines... | |
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elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO | Re: In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated.. did you miss the part of about selling kidneys that wasnt a joke id pay nearly any thing for FiOS and there are WAYS to get around the phone bill i dont need half the bundled crap
just local service and im fine | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? though she did note that "if the time ever came when this situation occurred, we'd evaluate what's fair for all concerned and then do that. Our goal would be to provide great service and retain and grow customers for Verizon." Want to bet that "what's fair" will be what's fair for Verizon and not the consumer. Since we have already seen that "unlimited" means "limited" in the Verizon dictionary, I would imagine "lifetime" has a similar limited definition such as lifetime of a fly. Alternately some guys will show up late at night and cause "lifetime" to end at that moment.
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
| | madrhino
join:2004-07-03
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
2 edits | Re: Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? said by n2jtx : Alternately some guys will show up late at night and cause "lifetime" to end at that moment.
If they were sent by Verizon they probably wouldn't show up until 3 weeks late. | |
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darbea
from the Dark Side
Premium
join:2007-07-15
Coatesville, PA
1 edit | Re: Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? said by madrhino : If they were sent by Verizon they probably wouldn't show up until 3 weeks late. If you're lucky.
The maintenance dept (the guys that work outside), has a weekly budget to maintain. If they're at their "weekly cap", then there is no overtime offered to the techs to cover all the repair calls that day. The ticket is rolled over to the next day, so to speak.
Can't exceed that budget, you know... just as HMOs pay bonuses to doctors who limit referrals, and claims reps who deny claims, middle and upper management get bonuses for "saving" money.
It's not about service. It's about services.
It's not Ma Bell anymore.
--
Friends Don't let friends vote Republican
Somewhere in Texas There's a Village Missing an Idiot and here's a clue:
"Is our children learning?" --George W. Bush
| |
| | | | madrhino
join:2004-07-03
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| Re: Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? said by darbea : The maintenance dept (the guys that work outside), has a weekly budget to maintain. If they're at their "weekly cap", then there is no overtime offered to the techs to cover all the repair calls that day. The ticket is rolled over to the next day, so to speak. Can't exceed that budget, you know... just as HMOs pay bonuses to doctors who limit referrals, and claims reps who deny claims, middle and upper management get bonuses for "saving" money. It's not about service. It's about services. It's not Ma Bell anymore. That is the same excuse I've heard for the FIOS customer service department being the total,unbelievably mismanaged clusterf*** that it is except they are FORCING the employees they have to work OT instead of hiring more, which they can't do because of "the budget".I bet the executive bonus program isn't slowed down any by "the budget"
When you think about it, it makes sense.Let the field work slow down until the support team is trained and in place.
I'm sure it's an accident.
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Get Verizon FIOS,The Anti-DIOS | |
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darbea
from the Dark Side
Premium
join:2007-07-15
Coatesville, PA
| Re: Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? said by madrhino :they are FORCING the employees they have to work OT instead of hiring more, which they can't do because of "the budget".I bet the executive bonus program isn't slowed down any by "the budget" You got it!! and to further rile your feathers, here is how it worked out of my garage, prior to my retirement last year:
In a typical construction garage, you have 4 groups: Linemen; they are the guys who place the poles and cable - by title and training, they do not actually splice any cable (some exceptions, tho.)
C&X Splicers: They basically follow the linegang and splice the cable. They are the ones who splice and turn up the FIOS plant also. C&X stands for Capital and Expense - the construction part of the pie, involved in the building of the plant
Maintenance Splicers: Another group of splicers (same as C&X splicers) involved in troubleshooting cable problems. They are responsible from the C.O. to the jack; that is to say that they follow and fix the trouble even into your house.
Usually, the maintenance guys worked over in C&X, then migrated across the hall. The old adage here is "you got to know how to build it, if you want to be able to fix it"...
Service Techs: Also called installers. They are the guys who, on service orders, would run the loop to your house, place the nid, and any inside wiring/jacks that you wanted. Their responsibility is from the pole to the jack. They also work "inside trouble". If they prove trouble beyond the pole and into the cable, that ticket is then referred to a maintenance splicer. Service Techs/installers do not have the training or tools to work in the cable. Whole different ball of wax.
That's basically the copper plant scenario I sketched there. (In PA - other Bells in other states have different titles/job descriptions in other states. As GTE has different things. OH! I MEANT TO SAY VERIZON.
Can't use the "bell" word anymore...
FIOS is a bit different.
Anyway, that construction garage, up to just a few years ago, was one happy family, with the same chain of command all the way to the VP. Then someone in management developed a brilliant plan. Naturally, on paper, this all looked good; but in the real world, where we have to face the customers, it made us look like smacked asses; and the policy/ business change went something like this: split the groups into separate "lines of business", each line having it's own and different chain of command. The C&X splicers, along with the line gang, were placed into one line; the maintenance end (splicers and service techs) into the other line.
In one stroke of the pen, and quite a few executive promotions, C&X splicers were not allowed to work trouble anymore, unless a "weather emergency" or such was declared. Two different lines of business, two different budgets.
Up until then, a splicer was a splicer was a splicer (not a typo, just an awkward sentence). Maintenance and C&X were interchangeable. Most times, at the end of the day, the C&Xers would come in and work OT to help bring the trouble load down; NOT ANYMORE. Different pot of money, and the C&X district level didn't want that OT charged to his budget.
It gets better:
When FIOS rolled out, the C&X gang placed it, of course. When there was a trouble report in the fiber plant, it DID NOT GO to maintenance. FIOS was exclusively C&X; the maintenance guys were forbidden to touch it. I guess it was mainly because the metering equipment was so expensive they couldn't afford to outfit every splicer, or maybe because since the C&X gang spliced and fired it up; they had the knowledge to fix it. Caveat: I'm only talking about PA, two years ago. Things may have changed, don't know.
The Installers/Service Tech's were the guys who came to your house to place the ONU, router, turnup, etc. Due to the demand, the average length of time for the visit, and the push from upstairs, VZ had a massive hiring frenzy, bringing new techs in "off the street". The group tripled in size.
(As an 'aside', historically a new hire never came in off the street into a "top craft" title; promotions usually went thru the 'Upward Mobility' program, and rightly so; you promote from within before you bring in a new hire. To get promoted into lineman, splicer, or installer, you typically spent a few good years in a different department).
Some employees in lower titles who had applied thru upward mobility, to go outside were bypassed - even those who had put in for the title long before the FIOS rollout and hiring frenzy. I'm not sure how the grievances turned out, but I believe the union was able to win the grievances in most part, and helped the employee get his/her promotion.
From what I saw, (I was a maintenance splicer), most of the new hires off the street picked up everything rather quickly; they were exclusively trained in FIOS, and had little or no experience in copper/inside wiring, which was understandable; it was a struggle to keep up with the orders coming in. ALL techs were trained, IMHO, pretty well, so the older techs did FIOS as much as the newer guys. The older guys would still also handle the copper stuff, and the new hires migrated into that as well. The PUSH was FIOS, though, and that's where the resources were concentrated. That is not to say that the copper customers were ignored or anything like that - just too much work, probably not enough techs, but mainly budget concerns that just killed our "clock" - the length of time between the customer report to repair, and the time the ticket was closed.
When we were Bell of PA, my experience was that we didn't go home until all the trouble due that day was done; and that was on a 4 - 6 hour clock, on average trouble loads. Of course when trouble was high (like after a storm), the clock was pushed back a few hours, to 8, 10, or (rarely) higher.
The focus was SERVICE. Overtime, while always managed, was less a factor than missing a "due time". If you missed your ticket (closed out trouble report after due time), you got bitched at by your foreman. Sometimes.
As Verizon, we provide SERVICES. In order to provide services, service itself often takes a back seat.
Remember earlier in this bloated tome, I talked about "Lines of business"? You see, C&X (construction), generates revenue.
Maintenance does not generate revenue on the other hand; it is an EXPENSE. It is a drain on profit, the bottom line, and ultimately, the annual bonuses the executive level "earns". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out - they get paid to save money, cut costs, earn profits.
And they virtually can write their own tickets because they MANAGE THE BUDGET. That money is literally coming out of their pockets to cover overtime on maintenance/repair.
And yes, the techs installing the FIOS are working forced overtime in a lot of cases, but remember that comes from the budget that generates revenue.
And sometimes, the maintenance splicers get lucky and are forced to work OT to cover the trouble load. But it really hurts the suits to pay us... it affects their bonus...
I think I have bored everybody enough... this is rather a long post, and my fingers hurt... please don't flame, I just get long winded at times, trying to explain a 30 year career.
--
Friends Don't let friends vote Republican
Somewhere in Texas There's a Village Missing an Idiot and here's a clue:
"Is our children learning?" --George W. Bush
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| | | | | | madrhino
join:2004-07-03 | Re: Want To Bet in Verizon's Favor? Nice post, thanks for taking the time.
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Get Verizon FIOS,The Anti-DIOS | |
| 
meskinct
Mad Scientist at Work
Premium
join:2002-01-07
Danbury, CT
clubs: | What's the number? So the real question is how many 'for life' customers does VZ have currently? | |
| | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: What's the number? Better question is , if that is the case , why not give the people that price and speed for life , even on the fios network. Just don't cut the offer.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| Answers Posted Yesterday
If Karl had read yesterday's thread, he could have saved a phone call. I posted that this was not new to the TOS. Also posted that an attempt to figure out what to do with 768/128 customers was made after this was put in the TOS. It was not successful.
As I recall, the CPE is too expensive for just phone, or just internet. Don't believe TV was up back then. So you won't see anyone being forced to fiber till they have cheap solutions for those, or a much cheaper ONT. Subs may still need to take a bundle to keep that for life thing. | |
|
yo
@verizon.net | Same Packages over Fiber Why not just offer the exact same packages over fiber? 768/128 and 3/768 with the same pricing structure. And If people want more speed, they can always upgrade to the 10/2 or higher packages. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | Re: Same Packages over Fiber See my posts above. | |
| 
benc
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL | Fortunately I Don't Live In A Verizon Area I wonder if this would mean a lack of POTS. I don't know about some of you, but I only want to use POTS in conjunction with a good reliable Western Electric telephone. | |
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DCSOS
@mindspring.com
| Verizon forces unjustly What about all the TAX FORGIVEMENT that the government provided VERIZON in the northeast?
I was under the impression that the private corporation VERIZON was actually a partner with the government in development of a FIBER BASED infrastructure.
How are they allowed to play with the public they've been paid by our TAXES to serve?
We've given VERIZON millions in incentives, and they short our contracts. Is this fair? | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | Re: Verizon forces unjustly What did you think would happen when all that fiber was rolled out? That you would pay the same? Yeah and my taxes dropped when my local FD bought new trucks, the PD hired more cops, and a new schools were built. Wake up. | |
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no_reason
@verizon.net
| no_reason there's no reason Verizon couldn't offer the same speeds on FIOS, making the only reason of keeping the copper lines the phone service "reliability" of network powered dialtone.
For data, it's all-but obsolete in the last mile (at&t will get the memo sooner or later). | |
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In Verizon's best interest to get customers migrated..