Washington Post Kills Major Spam, Child Porn PitInvestigation leads to ISPs pulling the plug on McColo ( old news - 11:09AM Wednesday Nov 12 2008) tags: business · spam · scamThanks to Brian Krebs of the Washington Post, McColo Corporation -- a Web hosting company that has emerged as a major U.S. base of operations for a host of international cyber-crime syndicates -- has been yanked offline. Krebs highlights his investigation into the company in both this Post article and over at the Post's Security Fix blog. The company for years has been hosting the master servers for a slew of known criminal botnets, which collectively are responsible for roughly 75% of the world's spam. Officials from McColo did not respond to multiple e-mails, phone calls and instant messages left at the contact points listed on the company's Web site. But within hours of being presented with evidence from the security community about illegal activity coming from McColo's network, the two largest Internet providers for the company decided to pull the plug on McColo late Tuesday. Those two carriers were Global Crossing and Hurricane Electric. "We shut them down," Hurricane tells the Post. "We looked into it a bit, saw the size and scope of the problem [washingtonpost.com was] reporting and said 'Holy cow!' Within the hour we had terminated all of our connections to them." Yeah, holy cow. Apparently we're to believe neither ISP noticed they were hosting a huge cyber-criminal conglomerate and master servers for five massive criminal botnets ("Mega-D," "Srizbi," "Pushdo,""Rustock" and "Warezov,") until a reporter called. Still, score one for the good guys, even if McColo will probably be up and running under a new name in no time. For reference, McColo didn't just host spam botnets, they were hosting scam websites, bogus anti-malware operations, child porn, and child porn payment operations. Which makes you wonder why authorities allowed a known criminal outfit to flourish for so long, only to be toppled by a Post reporter and a phone. Perhaps New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo could learn a thing or two from Krebs about effectively fighting child porn.
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DrModem
Premium
join:2006-10-19
USA | Take that, scum! Yea. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? unforunately it will be up and running in a week with a new name and new servers.  Nice hit anyway  | |
| | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
 ·AT&T Midwest
| You're damned right they looked the other way. People have been reporting this stuff directly to (at least) Hurricane Electric for quite awhile. They certainly knew of any criminal activity and their failure to address it until it was blown up in a major media outlet makes them culpable, especially since HE is not an "ISP" in the retail sense the law anticipates. | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by RadioDoc  :You're damned right they looked the other way. People have been reporting this stuff directly to (at least) Hurricane Electric for quite awhile. They certainly knew of any criminal activity and their failure to address it until it was blown up in a major media outlet makes them culpable, especially since HE is not an "ISP" in the retail sense the law anticipates. Its not a backbone ISP's right to regulate content. If we had backbones disconnecting ISPs on a daily basis for tiny disputes, there would be no internet. What if my cousin ripped me off, can I call Verizon and tell them to shut off landline service to my cousin because I say he defrauded me? | |
| | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
 ·Optimum Online
| I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down.
If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye?
The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by DVOOR8 :I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down. If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye? The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. They have been notified for ages. They just made too much money to do anything about it until it made the National press in the form of the Wash Post story. Then the negative PR value MADE them take action. And when notified of problems, they should have started their own investigation and not depend on some reporters to do it for them.
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| | | | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
·Optimum Online
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by GOLFnSUN :said by DVOOR8 :I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down. If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye? The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. They have been notified for ages. They just made too much money to do anything about it until it made the National press in the form of the Wash Post story. Then the negative PR value MADE them take action. And when notified of problems, they should have started their own investigation and not depend on some reporters to do it for them. Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions.
If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this. | |
| | | | | emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by DVOOR8 :Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions. If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this. The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.
If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such.
wig
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Please keep your f---ing religion to yourself. | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? Doing the right thing is very subjective in a society that allows for gratuitous violence and sex on the tube 24/7. People that have been trying to do the right thing are lambasted as a neocons. If federal or municiple authorities asked for compliance, then these 2 ISPs should adhere. Otherwise, you may be in a situation where allegations get innocents hurt. Why didn't this clown from the post run this past authorities...you know, the proper chain of command?
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
 ·magicjack.com
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by S_engineer :Why didn't this clown from the post run this past authorities...you know, the proper chain of command? The article ends by saying there is more to come, but he just wanted to get this part of the story out now.
I don't see anything wrong with a reporter contacting potential co-conspirators as part of the story. If he didn't contact them, there would have been nothing on record concerning their position prior to law enforcement action (if/when it occurs).
I also don't see anything wrong with a reporter publishing a story instead of contacting law enforcement (presumably keeping the story secret?). The reporter's has a job to do. Publishing the story is just one of many ways to alert law enforcement (through public pressure).
Mark | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? Except for the fact that he may have just screwed a pending case. Not to mention there must be proof that these are violations of Global Crossings and Hurricanes policies. I think its hipocritical for people to ask for a form of "pseudo dumb pipe", and then bitch when they see some of the ramifications of those desires.
And is this the same Global Crossing that screwed investors out of 37 billion just 7 years ago?
Hey, I'm all for shuting them down. But only through the proper mechanisms.
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress | |
| | | | | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| said by emptywig :The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous. If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such. This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit. | |
| | | | | | | emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by MyDogHsFleas :This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit. The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison.
wig
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Please keep your f---ing religion to yourself. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? Ever tried to have someone evicted? | |
| | | | | | | | | mlundin
join:2001-03-27
Lawrence, KS | Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? I've seen it done first hand. Lawyer makes proper filings for an eviction, people tossed out by cops in about a week (during which they were in jail for armed robbery). Didn't appear too difficult aside from getting a lawyer. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? Several things come into play there though. The first is most likely a default judgement being issued since the individual was not present at the hearing. If someone offers up a defense, it usually lengthens the process significantly. Second, without a clear violation of the lease, notice usually has to be given well in advance, 30-60 days. Third, a good evidence of a lease violation must be presented. | |
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knightmb
Everybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by mlundin :I've seen it done first hand. Lawyer makes proper filings for an eviction, people tossed out by cops in about a week (during which they were in jail for armed robbery). Didn't appear too difficult aside from getting a lawyer. I don't know what state you live in, but that's totally false. First you file for eviction, then wait a while, go to court, the judge decides, gives them a max of 10 days to comply, then you can get the police to remove them. You don't need a lawyer to do this, anyone can (I have before) and even then you must have a good reason to tell the judge. In my case, it was lack of payment for the home, but a reason like "I think they are doing something illegal" would just be another court case and more time until the next trial to present your evidence before evicting them on top of another 10 days.
So I call BS on that.
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| | | | | | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? It depends on state. On some, by just filing meaningless appeals you can extend it to 6 months before the eviction crew comes. In others, there is no due process, 1 day after the rent is due you file papers, 2-3 days later illegal occupation notice is served, and eviction crew can come whenever they want (when confirmation that the illegal occupation notice was served). The eviction date itself is never told to the occupant. So from 1 day late on the rent, by the end of the month you can have a new tenent in there. BTW, all you belongings go on the street. | |
| | | | | | | | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
·Optimum Online
| said by emptywig :said by MyDogHsFleas :This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit. The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity. The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison. wig Boy you guys don't get it huh?
Thats all fine and good but the landlord CAN NOT make the determination, convict anyone, or prove that something illegal has been going on without an official legal conviction. The tenant would still need to found GUILTY of something, and that requites the authorities. | |
| | | | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by emptywig :The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity. But the police aren't here. Only a court can make the declaration the illegal activity was done for the purpose of the lease, not you. McColo has excellent grounds to sue if they are innocent (probably not). | |
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kruser
Premium
join:2002-06-01
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·AT&T Southwest
| said by emptywig :said by MyDogHsFleas :This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit. The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity. The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison. wig Who are you to say the activity was illegal? Are you the police? No, I did not think so.
I am a tenant in a fairly large apartment complex and it is usually quiet and peaceful.
However, a year or two back a female moved in and she was obviously dealing drugs from her apartment or she was a crack whore. Not sure but anyhow, about a week or two after she moved in the traffic in and out of the place picked up highly. We went from maybe four cars per hour to 20 cars per hour. The extra 16 cars were all traffic for her apartment. They were white and black males mostly and would stay for under 5 minutes while some would stay for longer and eventually a few would stay for days.
It was then that I said something as the guys coming over were badly dressed and looked like they had been up for days.
So the manager made note of my complaint and watched the traffic and verified that I was correct. She could not do anything however but the police were called and they started tracking the vehicles that came and went. This took about two months and they finally busted someone going in or out of her apartment and that bust activated the clause like yours that says you cannot use the apartment for illegal activities. Once that took place then the complex sent her a certified letter stating she had 30 days to vacate. She did but I've seen many that did not and the sheriff had to come in and throw them out.
So if you are really a landlord then you are doing illegal actions but I suspect you are not a landlord.
You sound like the guy down here that says he will throw you out if you put up a satellite dish on his property even though it is your area. The federal government gives you the right as a tenant to put up a dish so long as it is an exclusive use area of your rented apartment. So if you have say a balcony exclusive to you that faces south then you can put a dish on it regardless of what the lease papers say. It's called the OTARD law.
Sorry to be off topic here but this guy needs to learn in my book. | |
| | | | | | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
·Optimum Online
| said by emptywig :said by DVOOR8 :Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions. If the proper authorities were notified by anyone or had a reason to act, suppliers of bandwidth ALWAYS comply with whatever law authorities request of them. Sounds to me that even law enforcement wasn't onto this. The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous. If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such. wig Actually Einstein, the idea that you should take the law into your own hands is what is ridiculous.
You cant, nor do you have the authority to investigate any illegal activity and have it result in ANYTHING.
Also, tenants have considerable rights and you would find yourself in trouble trying to kick anyone out of anywhere without due process.
I'm sure you have a bit of internet toughness going here but these are the facts. | |
| | | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| You are obviously not a landlord then because the rights and obligations of such do not extend to you investigating the activities of a tenant nor can you just up and throw someone out. State laws vary obviously, but for the most part evicting someone isnt done easily one afternoon and is generally a pretty long road that is in favor of the tenant, not the landlord.
In this case if the ISP's were aware of it then they should not have changed anything and gotten the proper authorities involved to investigate and collect evidence so the owners can be convicted. Otherwise they are simply going to go find another host and the process starts all over.
During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so. | |
| | | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by Skippy25 :During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so. Would the city water company be held responsible for providing city water to a chemical manufacturer that does environmental pollution into their backlot if some hippies told the city water company that the chemical manufacturer is using the water for illegal purposes? | |
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RickNY
Premium
join:2000-11-02
New York
1 edit | said by emptywig :The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous. If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such. If you tried that in New York, not only will a judge restore possession of the premises back to the tenant, but you as the landlord, would then be accountable for treble damages to the tenant for any losses he/she may incur as a result of an eviction that was done without a court order.
For what its worth, it takes anywhere from 3-6 months to evict someone in New York -- with the shorter cases involving tenants that have already vacated the premises (in which case the landlord still needs to receive the eviction order before he can make the property available for renting to a new tenant).
With that being said, I know a few people that act as landlords of their property.. Its very hard to get good tenants, and if you end up stuck with a real scumbag in your property, you could end up losing quite a bit of money.. | |
| | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by DVOOR8 :Bandwidth providers are not investigative authorities and have no place doing any investigation into illegal activity or another companies actions. Oh please, ISPs have been getting rid of people who "supposedly" abuse their connections with no proof for years.
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| said by DVOOR8 :I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down. If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye? The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass. | |
| | | | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
·Optimum Online
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by Rob :said by DVOOR8 :I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down. If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye? The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it? Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ? I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass. Wow, that is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have seen. I would do the right thing and contact the proper authorities and handle it like someone who cares about the outcome. I am not going to try and battle crime myself nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by DVOOR8 :said by Rob :said by DVOOR8 :I don't think it is bandwidth providers duty to police the way customers use the bandwidth they sell them. Why would they want to? That is a very dangerous slope to start down. If I sell paper clips and rubber bands, does that make me responsible for making sure children don't launch paper clips into another child's eye? The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it? Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ? I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass. Wow, that is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have seen. I would do the right thing and contact the proper authorities and handle it like someone who cares about the outcome. I am not going to try and battle crime myself nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was. And what if the authorities did nothing? You would just ignore it?
Just let them continue to do what they do without taking any action?
Where does it become your responsibility? Never? | |
| | | | | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by Rob :Where does it become your responsibility? Never? Most States have laws that punish and/or strongly disincentivize vigilantes. Suggest you become acquainted with yours otherwise you may find yourself sharing a jail cell with the same individual you thought you had a right to enforce the law upon. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs: | If the evidence is there, why would the authorities ignore it? | |
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See 30 replies to this post | |
| | | | | DVOOR8
join:2001-12-24
USA
·Optimum Online
| said by Rob :And what if the authorities did nothing? You would just ignore it? Just let them continue to do what they do without taking any action? Where does it become your responsibility? Never? If the proper law enforcement agencies decided not to pursue it, I would move to report it to the next layer of enforcement authority. Why would I take the cause up myself?
What would you do? Grab a lynchin' rope and rustle up a posse? - Yeah, sure you would. | |
| | | | | | DemonicLlama
join:2007-11-19
Potomac, MD | If the authorities did nothing, the wash post would print the story.....right after more election coverage. | |
| | | | | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| said by DVOOR8 :...nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was. Bingo - we have a winner !
--
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'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !' | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| The Future, Maybe? I don't know how many of you have read William Shatner's Tekwar series. In my opinion this is one of the most prophetic Science fiction series I have ever read. In it the Internet is called the Matrix, sound familiar In this series there is a Matrix Police force who patrols the Matrix in it's virtual world. There are also hackers which in this series are called Matrix Riders. I have always felt this series gives a glimpse of the future of the internet.
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I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption | |
| | | | utahluge
join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT
·Comcast
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by Rob :If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?
Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?
I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass. Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail. | |
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birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by utahluge :said by Rob :If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it? Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail. Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police.
Not too smart, in my view.
C'mon people, surely you're not all as dense you seem to be. There's lots of ways to get authorities involved without getting caught in the middle. Hell, call your local TV station. They'd love stories on "kiddie porn right under your noses. Film at 11."
Call the local equivalent of DCYF. There's plenty of ways to allege something without coming right out and saying it. Talk blonde with big hair and a Cranston accent.
Ok, that last part is a Rhode Island euphemism. Ya gotta be there.  | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by birdfeedr :Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police. Not too smart, in my view. There are cases where well-intentioned people bought dope, called the police to give it to them, and report who the seller was. The caller went to jail for buying and possessing dope.
The last thing I would do is visit kid porn sites so I could video tape them as evidence. Not unless I was part of a watchdog group recognized by the police.
Mark | |
| | | | | | utahluge
join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT | Depends on where you film from. Obviously your not going to be in the same room. Plus, just film the house number and then snail-mail a CD to the police department. Be anonymous. | |
| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by Rob :I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass. I should come tell you that my neighbors who I hate have a child brothel in their house. I'll love to see the carnage you do and the cops storming the house while your killing the occupants of that house. :-D perfect way to get rid of the neighbors, and to give a sob story about a lone rampaging psychopath attacking the neighborhood to the local TV newsvans
You responsibility is to tell the cops, and thats it. If the cops don't want to do anything about it. Tough luck. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_···immunity
Even if the cops take 3 hours to show up to a group of serial killers executing your entire extended family during thanksgiving, there is nothing you can do (but since this is your residence, you can take a shotgun and deal with it yourself »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine this doesn't apply to property you rent out, or backbone/consumer ISPs). | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by KrK :said by DVOOR8 :The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act. I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often. | |
| | | | | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by Matt :said by KrK :said by DVOOR8 :The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing. This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act. I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often. well if it didnt happen then every local TV station wouldnt need their "I-Team". just sad that it takes the threat of the media beaming it nationwide via satellite to get action.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
| | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
1 edit | said by GOLFnSUN : If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. Whatever happened to allegedly small government conservatives who abhor government interference in every little thing? I guess that only applies when it comes to their portfolios and Wall Street. Based on the junk you post here I am very sure that if you had stock in either company, you'd be singing an entirely different tune...one of deregulation instead of accountability. | |
| | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by SilverSurfer :said by GOLFnSUN : If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. Whatever happened to allegedly small government conservatives who abhor government interference in every little thing? I guess that only applies when it comes to their portfolios and Wall Street. Based on the junk you post here I am very sure that if you had stock in either company, you'd be singing an entirely different tune...one of deregulation instead of accountability. As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie.
Along with that is the belief that the government should be strong and effective in areas where it has an undeniably legitimate role- in this case law enforcement.
Here the ISP wasn't the one engaging in illegal activity, it was the the host. While they shouldn't be held responsible for every bit of illegal activity they weren't directly involved in, there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator. | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by dynodb :As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie. I think that's a very fair and accurate description which even liberals would agree with. The problem is in the definition of "counterproductive." It almost always boils down to the base human condition of "who's ox is being gored."
It's just that liberals don't try to dress it up in fancy terms about "free markets" and "being principled."
Mark | |
| | | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| This is pretty much the situation here, especially considering the evidence of illegal activity was in the open, accessible from the Internet and available for all to see. In most cases such inaction would result in a service provider (in this case the ISPs) being held accountable as accessories to a felony if they knew the felonious activity was occurring and did nothing about it because it would cut off a revenue stream.
This is not about censorship or Second Amendment rights. Hosting services are not real estate leases and as service contracts generally have provisions which allow the provider to cut off services in light of blatant illegal activity. The servers at McColo were unambiguously hosting illegal activity and the upstreams knew it. Pretty much a closed case. | |
| | | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by dynodb :... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator. Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy? | |
| | | | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by SilverSurfer :said by dynodb :... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator. Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy? You're suggesting that the host wasn't breaking the law??? It's been pretty well established that they were.
The question is, did the ISP know, should they have reasonably known, and should they be able to turn a blind eye to it?
An analogy- you rent a house to someone dealing drugs out of it. If you had no knowledge or reason to know they were doing so, you committed no crime. If on the other hand you continued to rent the house to the drug dealers knowing they rented the house for the purpose of dealing drugs, you could be prosecuted as a co-conspirator benefitting from a criminal enterprise.
Again- it would be unreasonable to expect an ISP to police their customers for any and all possible infractions, but for a continuting operation as large as this one has to question whether they knowingly allowed this to go on in in the name of profit. | |
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Tsume
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Cox HSI
| said by GOLFnSUN :The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. ISPs should be free from RESPONSIBILITY unless the law has absolute proof they had knowledge of felonies occuring on their network and took no action in disabling their access and/or reporting them to the authorities.
I really think the way this should work is:
1, ISP receives tones of reports and decides to look into it, finds illegal activity, immidiately cuts them off and alerts authorities OR
2, ISP receives tons of reports, does nothing, the government agency in charge of overseeing them receives reports as well (because people will realize the ISP isn't doing their job), government comes in and orders ISP to shut down access, ISP complies.
Either of those scenarios works, #1 is ideal. What happened here is that the ISP did not want to do their job right away, and #2 didn't occur either because people didn't report it to the authorities, or because the authorities did nothing to get the ISP to cut off access (or maybe they don't have the power to do that, which they should).
The only time the ISP should be punished (besides by the bad PR it receives) is if it directly violates an order of the court or other governing authority. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
2 edits | said by GOLFnSUN :The size of the operation involved says that the DOJ looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. There, fixed it for you. The current laws give the DOJ what they need to act on this. If this has been reported for ages, why did the DOJ failed to step in to shut down McColo? If the evidence was so clear, why weren't existing laws used?
Nothing in the existing laws prevents the DOJ from shutting dows these operations.
There's no need to burden ISPs with more RIAA/MPAA friendly and innefective legislation. | |
| | 
mod_wastrel
join:2008-03-28
·magicjack.com
| It's not the responsibility of "carriers" to determine what is and is not criminal activity. Anyone who thinks there is a crime being committed should contact the legal authorities (police, FBI, whatever) and let them make the determination. Technically, carriers should not be monitoring the details of what customers are doing (wire-tapping). Carriers should simply cooperate with authorities, sometimes initiating action when they receive complaints from others, but not acting unilaterally to determine whether crimes are being committed. The authorities may want to allow certain activities to continue briefly so as to collect and trace evidence. | |
| | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| it is not the job of a carrier to police every gigabit. that said if hard evidence is brought to them(and i mean real evidence not the bullshit Un-Evidence the RIAA uses against piracy)then they should act and turn the pipe off. but they should also work at this with law enforcement, cutting the pipe might spook the perps and make them destroy data. cutting the pipe with an FBI sting happening minimizes their chance to destroy the drives.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by GOLFnSUN :The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. I agree, if the issue is so large that the Ops center had to be aware, or we have evidence that they have been notified of a smaller issue.
BTW, this kind of cooperation between criminals and pipe providers has been going on since the beginning.
10 years ago, I would edit the garbage groups out of the Netscape NNTP group lists, for my friends who frequented news groups. The group names were appalling. When I attempted to find out who actually owned the servers that held the material, all trails led to uu.net.
With mods either creating or allowing groups like alt.binaries.beat.babies.to.death to be created; someone there had to know what they were hosting.
I spent over a year trying to get someone, anyone to care. I emailed local and national press, child protection groups, even talked to folks in law enforcement. Nobody thought it worth their time.
I remember one conversation with David Caton, head of the Florida Family Association. I tried to impress on him the value of eliminating child porn hosts. However, he was too laser focused on his campaign against homosexual causes to divert any resources to this cause.
After a year+½ or so, I finally gave up. I guess it wasn't yet fashionable enough to merit any effort.
NV | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL | Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? You know, your vigilance gives support to telecom immunity!
Same premise, the ends justifying the means. | |
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istkaliberal
@sbcglobal.net | Are you saying you want the government to enact laws to "regulate" how a company does business? Isn't that a "liberal" idea?
LOL, in any case, you are correct. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| said by GOLFnSUN :If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. There's no need to hold them responsible for the actions of their users--- just hold them responsible for their own actions (or lack thereof.)
The question really should be have they been informed and/or aware of the sites/nets/spam/operations.
I seriously doubt that they have received no complaints from victims, law enforcement, other ISP's, security and internet watchdog organizations, etc etc
So in all likely hood they were aware. In which case, you have to wonder if they aren't in some way complicit or liable in an enabling or accomplice role. I think some very hard questions should be being asked of these companies--- perhaps by the FBI, don't you think?
If they truly knew nothing, then again that begs the question of how they could possibly not know--- are they seriously incompetent at managing their network?
My guess is this was about the money. In which case, they should (rightly so) be in some deep trouble.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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Xizer
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY
| said by GOLFnSUN :The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. *punches wall, is republican, is 300 pounds* | |
| | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| said by GOLFnSUN :The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed. Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse.
If they were notified of abuse and didn't act on it, that's another story and they should be investigated. However ISPs (and other forms of carriers) have no way to control what their users do - and they shouldn't anyway!
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by nitzan :Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse. Well what is abuse? What do you do when there is activity that is illegal in your jurisdiction coming from Russia or Romania? Disconnect Russia or Romania's internet connection? | |
| DMNTD
join:2002-10-19
usa | DMNTD nope, they are not police...deal with it. | |
| | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: set who is accountable said by morbo :what we need is a clear chain of command for dealing with these problems. dare i say it? a SPAM CZAR! we at least need a new system to quickly identify and shut down spammers. if it needs to be a small and nimble federal government entity with the authority to shut down connections within 2 hours, then so be it. There is no such thing as a small and nimble federal government entity. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | Re: set who is accountable what do you suggest then? the current situation is untenable. | |
| MGD
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-31
Fort Lauderdale, FL
1 edit | About time !! Kudos to Brian Krebs,
McColo has been the source of multiple crybercrime activities for years. Back in June they played host for two dozen fraud sites that were part of a massive global Russian / Ukrainian based card fraud operation »Ebook websites, fraud charges, Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto The "Berry" site group, which were uncovered by the folks at »aa419.org targeted hijacked UK card data, and were a sub division of the multi year US Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto fraud operation documented here: »Ebook websites, fraud charges, Devbill/DigitalAge/Pluto and is still ongoing.
The aa419.org database lists 40 McColo sites »db.aa419.org/fakebankslist.php?p···rchtype= most associated with this fraud.
Though masquerading as a US based Delaware corporation, McColo is operated and controlled from Russia, only the servers are US based.
MGD
EDIT= added text & link | |
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phoneboy3
@shawcable.net | won't make a dent This probably won't even make a dent. The spammers are smart enough to have servers at multiple colos. Getting one of their locations taken down probably just means the other locations take up the slack. | |
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blueeyesm
join:2003-09-05
Waterloo, ON | So,... .. is it possible to find URLs showing the difference in 'net traffic over the period of time before McColo was shut down and after?
I'd be interested to see how much of an improvement it's made. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Hmm. Why Now Brian Krebs? Brian, crime hosting providers have been the low hanging fruit for a long time. Anybody can locate one, whenever they wish.
Are you new to journalism? I've shoved stuff like this in the faces of journalists before, including ones from your rag. The Post has never cared before.
I see Elliot Spritzer headlining the issue, brought it into style for you. I suppose having other people define your ethics for you is simpler than developing your own. Way to keep up the journalistic tradition.
NV | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
noapologies
@bellsouth.net
| you got the wrong analogy landlords are not like ISP's. ISP's are more akin to the people in charge of roads and highways, and maybe more like the ones in charge of toll roads. you can't hold the toll road owner responsible for everything that traverses his road. that said, if i saw a car with a big stack of illegal drugs or something hanging off the hood speeding down my toll road, OR ANY road, I'd call the police and report it, plain and simple. Might even try to take down their license plate number. that's my 2 cents. thank ya. | |
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Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??
