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 | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | Re: The Hidden Cash Cow.... Fees and surcharges are disguised price hikes. Instead of raising your prices, raise the fees and blame it on a government mandate or high fuel costs. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by fatmanskinny  :Fees and surcharges. Oh don't you know it!
crap fees are what people originally left POTS for VOIP, now its just as bad. long live magicjack[no bs fees!]
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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Toguro
join:2003-10-23
Ottawa, IL
1 edit | This is the crappiest voip plan It is cheaper to go with Comcast no wonder Vonage is failing. | |
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kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL | Re: This is the crapiest voip plan They are the largest independent VoIP provider...that hardly qualifies as "failing".
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»www.Digium.com | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL | Re: This is the crapiest voip plan GM is the largest domestic car manufacturer. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | Re: This is the crapiest voip plan zing! | |
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Toguro
join:2003-10-23
Ottawa, IL
1 edit | Re: This is the crappiest voip plan »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vonage
Revenue ▲$828.23 million USD(2007)
Net income ▼-$267.43 million USD(2007)
How long can anyone float checks till it catches up to them.
Edit: By the way at 18.00 for 500 minutes it is the crappiest voip plan going. | |
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grrrrrr
@bellsouth.com
| Re: This is the crapiest voip plan Enron was one of the largest independent energy companies so I guess they didn't fail either. GM is still considered by many measures to be the largest automobile manufacturer on the planet and I suppose, based on your reasoning, that they are minting money. As the old saying goes, "the bigger they are the harder they fall", etc.
I'm not trying to be offensive in anyway so please don't take my comments the wrong way. Vonage, by the way, has never once made any money. A relatively large customer base generates significant cash flow that lets them move money around enough to stay afloat but at the end of the day they are pretty much broke. They reported a $262M (million) loss in 2005. The next year they lost $339M. In 2007, they lost $267M. Its IPO failed miserably and it ended up landing them in court for false advertising.
Personally, I think VoIP technology is a wonderful thing. Traditional TDM (time division multiplexing) that serves as the backbone of traditional Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS), although extremely reliable, is far more expensive from a capacity stand point. Yes, Vonage brought the concept mainstream but the companies founder is a flat out crook (in my opinion). The firm was started by a gentleman named Jeffrey A. Citron. Mr. Citron was once a principal of a large online securities brokerage called Datek, later sold to TD Ameritrade. The SEC accused several Datek employees with fraudulently creating fictitious client accounts while trading (also illegally) money in existing customer accounts without permission. The non-fictitious existing client accounts were qualified to use a back-door trading system called SEOS. This system was designed to execute trades for smaller investers more quickly than traditional systems and allow legitimate small investors to obtain similar prices that the larger investors (such as pension and mutual funds) could obtain by ordering in bulk. The SEC alleged that Mr. Citron devised a clever computer-based algorithm that took advantage of the price spread quoted on the same exact equities between the SEOS system and the traditional system. The faster SEOS system wasn't allowed to be used by traders and several Datek account holders approached the SEC with documents from Datek quoting a guaranteed return on investment so long as Datek had permission to use the accounts at its discrection. This spread was allegedly pocketed by Mr. Citron and several other insiders. Although very small at the individual share, the pot added up to an estimated sum in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
In an unprecedented settlement, Mr. Citron and the others charged in the case agreed paid a record sum of roughly $70 million back to the SEC as long as they didn't have to admin wrongdoing and to settle the case outwrite. Mr. Citron's share was $22 million of total. I believe this was and may still be the largest fine ever paid to the SEC by an individual.
So Mr. Citron, still a very rich man, decides to pass the venture capital plate around the congregation to secure funding for his new start-up named "Vonage". Now, four years later, the company has lost hundreds of millions of dollars using technologies that several courts have determined to be ripped off from patents of traditional phone companies such as Verizon, Sprint, Nortel, and AT&T. Vonage was ordered to pay back hundreds of millions back to several of these these companies as a result.
I'm all about VoIP and any other technology that enhances or revolutionizes the way we all communicate but I think Mr. Citron's lack of morals and overall greedy persona spawned a company of equal posture that simply needs to go out of business. Yes, they hemmoraged billions on commercial advertisements over the years to get the word out and now we all know its out there whether we wanted to know about it or not. However, its culture of fiscal irresponsibility has led it down a path already forged by shady characters such as Enron and WorldCom as well as immature big spending wannabe's like WebVan. Let all the other VoIP providers, whether they be independent, telco, ISP, cellular, or cable take over their customer base so that they can be run by organizations that understand what a balance sheet is. I guess the free market will ultimately make that decision given today's economic climate soon enough when further attempts to obtain credit hit a brick wall.
If you think you've seen the last of price increases from the likes of Vonage, go see Mr. Citron about getting some of your money back.
www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/comp17929.htm | |
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| fallenangel
join:2005-10-04
USA
| Please explain how Comcast Digital Phone is cheaper than Vonage... unless you are still on the triple play package. For the first year, you pay $29.95 for the Comcast Digital Phone. After that the price for their phone service is raised.
When comparing, please add up all your taxes and other surcharges on your Comcast phone bill. Also, how is Vonage failing? | |
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Toguro
join:2003-10-23
Ottawa, IL | Re: This is the crappiest voip plan I get offers for unlimited calling for 19.99. | |
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mahermusic
join:2001-07-06
Chesterfield, NJ
 ·Vonage
 ·Comcast
| Re: This is the crappiest voip plan said by Toguro :I get offers for unlimited calling for 19.99. Read the fine print. You're "$19.99" offers turn out to be $24.99, or more. Read the fine print. Vonage is cheaper.
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1/20/09 = The final day of our Retarded Cowboy President! | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20 | Re: Oh great you saw the commercial that compares them to the phone and cable company and says that Vonage doesn't raise it rates huh? good stuff.
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DSLr Mafia Member. | |
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| | fallenangel
join:2005-10-04
USA
| Re: Oh great Actually its not about seeing a commercial and saying that Vonage doesn't raise its rates, its make a side by side comparison. I simply asked Toguro to compare all the surcharges on his Comcast bill to ones on a Vonage bill.
Now, if I had said that Vonage had never raised its rates, that would be a different story. Next time you reply to my post, I suggest you re-read what you typed and make sure its an accurate reflection on my post. | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| what are you talking about?
I was making a tongue-in-cheek joke at Vonage's expense. They have been advertising for the past year that they are different because they don't raise their rates, and now they do. That is all I was saying, I was not making commentary on any of your posts.
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DSLr Mafia Member. | |
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Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Camarillo, CA | You can cancel without penalty within the first 30 days. | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Fees and surcharges? Why can't VoIP be above it all? Just charge a single price with no fees or surcharges? Vonage deserves to fail just for bringing AT&T's price model to VoIP.
And raising rates is the same thing as admitting you are no longer getting new customers. So be smart, just get a magic jack. The first year is cheaper than two months of service with Vonage. | |
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| priller
join:2000-10-20
Gainesville, VA | Re: Fees and surcharges?
Once they started changing a "Regulatory Recovery Fee", Vonage started to become the same phone company they worked so hard to lure customers away from. | |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | "So be smart, just get a magic jack"
Remember the saying... You get what you pay for.  | |
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| | massysett
join:2006-01-04
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: Fees and surcharges? said by GOLFnSUN :said by insomniac84 :Why can't VoIP be above it all? Just charge a single price with no fees or surcharges? Because the gov't thru the FCC & state & local authorities mandates most of those costs. They are mostly taxes( Fed, State, Local) that the provider has no choice in applying. That doesn't mean that the company has to advertise "$29.99" or whatever, and then add on this tax, that tax, and this "fee" which isn't even collected by the government, to arrive at a grand total of $36.43.
For example, when you go to the movies, your ticket is, say, $10.25. The $10.25 includes taxes already. Of course they could run ads in the paper saying a ticket is $9.00 and then add on some taxes and then add a ridiculous "fee" to bring the total up to $10.13, but they advertise a simple price instead.
So, yes, VoIP could be above it all and charge a single price. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: Fees and surcharges? said by massysett :said by GOLFnSUN :said by insomniac84 :Why can't VoIP be above it all? Just charge a single price with no fees or surcharges? Because the gov't thru the FCC & state & local authorities mandates most of those costs. They are mostly taxes( Fed, State, Local) that the provider has no choice in applying. That doesn't mean that the company has to advertise "$29.99" or whatever, and then add on this tax, that tax, and this "fee" which isn't even collected by the government, to arrive at a grand total of $36.43. For example, when you go to the movies, your ticket is, say, $10.25. The $10.25 includes taxes already. Of course they could run ads in the paper saying a ticket is $9.00 and then add on some taxes and then add a ridiculous "fee" to bring the total up to $10.13, but they advertise a simple price instead.
So, yes, VoIP could be above it all and charge a single price. But that single price would be different in different localities based on differing local & state taxes. It would be hard to run a national advertising campaign and list 327 different prices because of the local tax situations. So, they list the base price and say that local fees & taxes will build on top of the advertised rate. It would be nice to advertise a "national average" for what fees would cost along with a demurer that localities would vary from that average.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY | Re: Fees and surcharges? There is difference between their fees not being included in the advertised price and taxes. | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
1 edit | But there is a common denominator. Everyone has to pay the federal fees, so those should be in the price. And taxes can vary, but if all taxes are 5% or higher, than include the common 5% in the advertised price.
Being taxed an extra 0-5% above advertised is better than being taxed 5-10% above advertised.
They are trying to hide as much cost as possible from the consumer and it's disgusting. | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| "to let the customer know" is a bit of a stretch, TK. All services and products have costs. Separating those costs from advertised price serves to mislead. To dangle a carrot, so to speak. "It's only 14.99!" "It's only 24.99!" When in reality it is much more.
If their intention was to let the customer know they could make notes on the bill each month.
Time Warner is pushing the edge in their tv ads these days too. Most I see no longer say the price shown is only for an intro period. It's in very tiny print instead. They also no longer obligate themselves to any particular rate after the intro period. It's just "the then current rate when the intro period ends." So you really don't even know to what you're signing up.  | |
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Fee Me Not
@rr.com
| said by GOLFnSUN :said by insomniac84 :Why can't VoIP be above it all? Just charge a single price with no fees or surcharges? Because the gov't thru the FCC & state & local authorities mandates most of those costs. They are mostly taxes that the provider has no choice in applying. Also some are costs passed on due to FCC mandates. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
There is no requirement to pass along those costs as line-items. The phone company can pay them and incorporate them into its price, just like they used to.
If they did, instead of "passing the buck" (or in this case ten bucks) to the consumer, they'd use their lobbying power to stop these mandates, and we'd all be better off.
But in the spirit of "Don't tax me! Tax the guy behind the tree!", the phone companies act as government co-conspirators and leave the consumer to fend for himself. | |
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See 8 replies to this post |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| ... Isn't it amazing that they can go from $15 to $23 with fees and don't get nailed with a class action 'bait-and-switch.' More than 50% more than advertised.
Tracfone has been a nice change. My monthly value plan is advertised $9.95 and my bill is $10.76. Nothing but state sales tax added. | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY | Re: ... The reality of Vonage's "fees" is proof positive, for sure. | |
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SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA | I saw this coming.. Vonage spent more money of advertising than their service. | |
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flyingjoey
join:2005-11-07
Jersey City, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Verizon FIOS
| MagicJack I've been a vonage customer since 2002 but also have a MagicJack which I use when I'm traveling abroad and need to call home.
I really wish MagicJack could come up with a another box (could be bigger) that you could just plug into an ethernet connection, a wall power supply and your RJ-11.
If they came up with that, I'd pre-pay for the service in 10 year increments. | |
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UARMF
@rr.com | Re: MagicJack MagicJack has no tech support, not even online. and the false advertise BIG time! if there were ever a company to watch out for, it's MagicJack. | |
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Guy Incognito
@teksavvy.com | I don't even own a phone Useless legacy devices that are only around because people are too slow to adopt superior communications technology. Fortunately my boss does everything by MSN and email, so my last reason to own one went out the window. | |
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| mr weather
Premium
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON | Re: I don't even own a phone Let us know how MSN and email work out for you when you need to make a 911 call. 
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"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes | |
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| erikthebean
join:2007-06-25
Manchester, NH | ha too bad your "superior communications technology" is all based on a pots system...remove the pots backbone say goodbye to your precious msn...(btw it sucks) | |
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nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| LOL I am sorry, but I just have to laugh at this. Their "cheapest" rate plan is more expensive than most providers' unlimited plan. Their television ads push "save, save, save" but at the end of the day their pricing is just as bad as the phone companies.
Vonage users- jump that sinking ship and move to a provider that doesn't spend half of their revenue on stupid television ads. A good place to start: »/gbu | |
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wwdubbia
join:2002-06-03
Clinton, NY | telco taxman telco's are the second largest tax collector behind only the IRS in amounts of fees collected. | |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | That'll keep customers They really are the "Internet Phone Company"...13% increase during a recession. Genius! | |
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EMPPLAN
@covad.net
| Employee plan rocks though The unlimited plan offered a while back to some stores who sold it rocks though. Our bill is about $15 and we use the heck out of it. While consumers may get the shaft, I get to benefit.
See last months statement!
Retail Employee Accommodation Unlimited Plan - 6 months free, then $9.99 thereafter for 1-(913)-538-7391 (30/Nov-29/Dec) $9.99
Regulatory Recovery Fee $0.99
Emergency 911 Cost Recovery $0.99
Sales Tax $0.96
Federal Universal Service Fee $0.91
State E911 Fee $0.25
Local E911 Fee $0.25
Total Amount $14.34
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| beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH | Re: Employee plan rocks though did you mean to post your phone # for everyone? | |
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ExitWound
Porsche Snob
join:2001-12-13
State College, PA
·Vonage
| 4 Minutes I used 4 minutes on my 500 Vonage plan last month. The month before, I used 41 minutes. at $14.99 ($19.36 after fees), it's not that expensive. All incoming calls are free. I DONT use the phone, but I do need it, and my roommate needs it. we don't need cell phones as our jobs don't demand it. But, mom still wants to call and say hi every week. The rate increase sucks, but there are no alternatives that are feasible enough and easy enough to use.
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»www.theexitwound.com | |
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| soitgoes2
Premium
join:2005-01-14 | Re: 4 Minutes Exitwound--they have cheaper, non-advertised plans. There's a $4.99+fees plan that includes 0 outbound minutes (outbound minutes are billed at 3 or 4 cpm). | |
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| nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| said by ExitWound :The rate increase sucks, but there are no alternatives that are feasible enough and easy enough to use. There are literally hundreds of alternatives. You might want to start with either of these:
»/gbu
»Re: [General] VoIP providers with LNP Support
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Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
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Crypto_Bug
join:2001-05-31
Torrington, CT | Rate Hike I will be terminating their service as soon at the rate hike hits my account. Gladly go with optimum voice for $14.95 a month, no limit on my minutes plus no other hidden fees disguised as taxes. | |
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| | Crypto_Bug
join:2001-05-31
Torrington, CT | Re: Rate Hike I already have an Optimum Line, I just kept the Vonage line because it was relatively the same price but it really isn't worth the hassle and being subject to their "taxes" which is really just a diguised method of charging you more. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by Crypto_Bug :I will be terminating their service as soon at the rate hike hits my account. Gladly go with optimum voice for $14.95 a month, no limit on my minutes plus no other hidden fees disguised as taxes. Good luck if you didn't use a prepaid credit card when you signed up. its as hard to cancel as AOL.
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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Read
@comcast.net | Vonage is cheaper Vonage is cheaper than any othe company out there. they are $24.99 a month unlimited as for comcast they are raising there prices to $42.99 by the end of the year | |
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| priller
join:2000-10-20
Gainesville, VA | Re: Vonage is cheaper said by Read :
Vonage is cheaper than any other company out there.....
Yikes! ... you really need to do some research.
Start here ... »/gbu | |
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tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| losing customers.. this is a money grab for losing customers at the unlimited price.. and to pay off for violating telco patents..
so, Vonage cannot get financing of it's debt.. so they calculate that into their bottom line rates which, if you look at what's out there is no longer competitive with other voip companies, perhaps with telco voip... which was the point of bringing patent lawsuits in the first place (to persuade the balls out of Vonage.. not rip the balls out). | |
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mc claire
@att.net | vonage service really rocks....
i will recommend vonage to all who wants a better rate with a better service. especially the customer service very polite and accurate. | |
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Mason 1
@fuse.net
| I recently installed Ooma - I have resisted VoIP for all of the same reasons but figured I would bag one of my bell lines to give it a try - worst case is I switch back. So far so good - as long as I place the Ooma hub between the high speed modem and my router - all heck broke loose with the quality when I had it hanging off of my router. Instead of spending days playing with QOS - I put it back in betweem and all was good. | |
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Vonage Price Hike For Cheapest Plan
The Hidden Cash Cow....
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Vonage alot better