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story category Virgin Takes Aim At BitTorrent
CEO says new system targets P2P specifically
(old news - 11:32AM Tuesday Dec 16 2008)
tags: Fileswapping · business · hardware · bandwidth · cable · world · content · networking · net-neutrality · consumers · Virgin.Net
Yesterday we noted that UK broadband operator Virgin media has launched 50Mbps DOCSIS 3.0 service, the company telling us they wouldn't be implementing the type of throttling common on their other tiers at launch. The company wouldn't specify that they wouldn't be throttling the tier at a future date, suggesting Virgin's maximizing the good PR of ultra-fast speeds before bringing down the bandwidth buzzkill hammer later -- when the press and public aren't paying as close attention.

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Virgin uses an approach that's quite novel to us Yanks (unless you're a U.S. satellite broadband customer): a time-restrictive throttling system that throttles users back for five hours to 50-75% of their subscribed bandwidth should they cross a certain threshold during peak times. For example, a customer on Virgin's 10Mbps/512kbps "L" tier loses 75% of his throughput for five hours should he download more than 1200MB between 4 and 9PM.

Considering that many people aren't even sure what a gigabyte is, that's likely too complicated for many consumers. In an apparent effort at simplification, the Register indicates that Virgin may be scrapping this system entirely, replacing it with one that targets BitTorrent specifically:
The details and timing of the new application-based restrictions are still being developed, Virgin Media's Kiwi CEO Neil Berkett said in an interview on Monday following the launch of his firm's new 50Mbit/s service. They will come into force around the middle of next year, he added.
That's an interesting shift, considering that here in the States, companies like Comcast are migrating away from targeting specific protocols, and are instead focusing on throttling customers based on node congestion and heavy usage. In addition to unveiling plans to target BitTorrent, Virgin CEO Neil Berkett also says the UK carrier will be embracing behavioral advertising from outfits like Phorm.

Related:
  1. The EFF 'Test Your ISP' Project
  2. Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began
  3. Friday Morning Links
  4. Tuesday Evening Links
  5. Cable Cooking Up New Network Management System
  6. Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling
  7. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  8. Cox Scraps App-Specific Throttling Trials
Forums » Virgin Takes Aim At BitTorrent
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Post a:

meh37

@verizon.net

Damn the customers!

Full speed ahead!

Simba7

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT


1 edit

50mbps for 192 seconds?

So.. According to this, it would be 50mbps for 192 seconds providing that you maxed it completely out.

You've GOT to be sh*tting me.. I'll stick with my 15mbps *UNRESTRICTED* DOCSIS 1.x (or is it 2.0) cable modem for now.

I'm glad our ISP doesn't pull this cap crap like everyone else does.

"Let's build a faster internet, but cap the hell out of it so no one can fully utilize it".. Makes perfect sense.

swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
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clubs:

1 edit

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

No, that is for their 10mbps/512kbps service. I believe the 50mbps was going to be 10GB

Edit: in the picture of this article the 20mbps service allots 3GB.

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by swhitney2003 See Profile :

No, that is for their 10mbps/512kbps service. I believe the 50mbps was going to be 10GB
Oh QQ, I'll hit that in a single day! I do 2 quadrillion GB a month! This isn't fair! I pay (really, my parents do) for unlimited usage and I should have the ability to download the full capacity of anything *I* want, anytime *I* want to! If it cripples my node because I want to run uTorrent at 6000 simultaneous connections I don't care! They should upgrade the node just for me! Where does my $45 a month go?!?

After a single Blu-Ray rip, er, I mean Linux download and all my WoW updates, anime, Windows Updates, and DDoS traffic I'm screwed!!11 I don't want to pay for all teh spam and unsolicited traffic that is sent to my cable modem!!1

swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
Premium
join:2003-06-13
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clubs:

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

I'm going to assume sarcasm here.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
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Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

I think that's probably correct. Lets put Matt on a business tier or cancel his service, clearly that makes more sense than implementing a system that punishes use of alternative video delivery.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Punishes alternative video deliver, how?
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


3 edits

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
JazzJRabbit

join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by devnuller See Profile :

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by JazzJRabbit See Profile :

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.

meh37

@verizon.net

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by devnuller See Profile :

said by JazzJRabbit See Profile :

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.
Speed + time = usage
Usage, of course, varies relative to how much time you spend "speeding". (Or were you just trying to be funny?)
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


1 edit

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by meh37 :

Speed + time = usage
Usage, of course, varies relative to how much time you spend "speeding". (Or were you just trying to be funny?)
I think it is actually a sum of instances around speed * time = usage. And no, I was trying to clarify a misconception.

meh37

@verizon.net

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Well, regardless, users seldom attain the rated speed, so using the rated speed to "compute" usage is always a best case scenario (or worst case if you have ridiculously low caps). Of course, if ISPs simply performed the function for which customers contract with them--namely, providing access to the Internet; then those customers wouldn't have to deal with stupid issues caused by greedy ISPs.
JazzJRabbit

join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..

said by devnuller See Profile :

said by JazzJRabbit See Profile :

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.
I'm assuming you're talking about comcast since you mentioned 250GB cap.

I said if US ISPs followed Virgin throttling approach then you would be throttled before you could even watch one HD movie from netflix.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Jazz that is absolutely BS
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH
And not to mention the article states they are moving AWAY from the throttling system and just going after bittorrent specifically....
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH
And you read this where exactly?
JazzJRabbit

join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

I didn't know it was that hard to google in this day and age

»news.cnet.com/8301-13515_3-10078091-26.html
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Thanks. Google is easy, getting CORRECT information only a little more difficult. Try here: »www.netflix.com/WiMessage?msg=59

You'll need to login.

Basically it says a 5mbps or higher is fine. Not to mention why would netflix release technology that only, say, 1% of people can get?

So at 5mbps you could watch 24/7 on virgin if you had a 20mbps package right? Because if they throttle you to 25% you still have 5mbps. And the 50mbps plan you'd still have plenty of headroom.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
I didn't know it was that hard to google in this day and age
Me thinks you're talking to an industry insider who's pretending to be "new" to this whole idea...

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

said by JazzJRabbit See Profile :

said by devnuller See Profile :

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
The total size of a Netflix HD movie is about 6GB. The rate at which it downloads doesn't matter as it doesn't use 8-10Mbps for the entire time the movie runs.
davidbrown

join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico

said by devnuller See Profile :

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
I agree with much of what he said but it does miss one important fact.
In the states were there are many different providers this is quite likely to happen but thats just the states.
In say Canada where we truly only have two providers this isn't likely to happen.
They work together rather then compete to keep ripping off the buyers and it had remained this way from the beginning.

For a health market with fair usage to emerge competition is needed and using Canada as a example this simply does not exist in a lot of places.
Tell this changes people wont get a fair deal.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
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2 edits
Punishes alternative video deliver, how?
Monthly caps as low as 5GB are currently being trialed by companies like Time Warner Cable and Frontier. I'll let you do the math for a household full of users. Meanwhile, BitTorrent throttling (like Bell Canada's) doesn't just target P2P piracy, it targets alternative BitTorrent delivery systems that will increasingly compete with Cable or telcoTV.

Higher caps that are clear, and only reached by a vast minority of extremely high-consumption customers are fine. As is smart network management. The problem is that what constitutes excessive use is arbitrary, raw core network congestion data is not published by ISPs, and it will be very easy to abuse systems "for the good of the network" in order to protect TV revenues.

I suppose those who think that's "FUD" (97% of the time that's coming from people in the industry whose wallets or portfolios benefit from metered billing or anti-competitive behavior) can bookmark this post and come back to it in four years to tell me I was wrong.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

But this article has nothing to do with a 5GB cap.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

No, but Virgin is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

No, but Virgin is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?
Clearly, you're mistaken. There's absolutely no reason for a corporation to cripple an up-and-coming competitor. Why, I don't believe that has ever happened in this history of our great company, errr, country.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
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said by Karl Bode See Profile :

No, but Virgin is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?
Video competition from who? Vuze? BitTorrent is out of the video distribution game, and the major players in online video don't use P2P for distribution.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH
Karl if they targeted, say netflix, or itunes, etc...then I'd agree with you. But they don't. Calling bittorrent "competition" to cable tv as a video distribution method is ridiculous.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Calling bittorrent "competition" to cable tv as a video distribution method is ridiculous.
Oh, glad we've got that straightened out then, Mark Cuban.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Nice, admin resorting to name calling. I guess if you are going to call me a name, might as well be a rich guy

Cuban is on record regarding Bittorrent? I did not state that the INTERNET is not viable competetion...strictly Bittorrent. Show me some data proving otherwise.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

3 edits

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Oh, so it has to be viable competition or using your dominant market position to crush delivery doesn't count?

Just because you don't think Vuze is a legitimate competitor (I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you're playing dumb but work at a carrier), doesn't magically make it not a competitor. Caps and P2P protocol throttling aren't about killing the competitors of today, they're about killing the competitors of tomorrow.

BitTorrent certainly isn't a current serious competitor for live TV, nor is it currently eating away at any decent share (online video entire ate about 2% of all TV ad revenue in '07), but it is a competitor all the same. Should we get semantic, BitTorrent piracy is a competitor as well, as it sets market expectation (which unfortunately for industry folks is free, and easy).
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

I don't work at a carrier or anywhere in the communications business. But this article is about attacking bittorrent directly as opposed to their old method of attacking all heavy users. From the outside looking in, attacking all heavy users would seem to be more of an anti-competetive practice (although I don't think it is) than strictly throttling bittorrent. This frees up all the netflix, hulu, itunes, etc. arguments. Now they just go after bittorrent directly, which is quite insignificant in the "legitimate" online video marketplace.

In fact, it could be construed that they are attacking bittorrent usage to make the netflix streaming experience better for the rest of their customers....although I doubt that as well
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


4 edits
Karl, I actually agree with much of what you said in that post. The only thing I challenge are changes around the delivery systems. Current video delivery is predictable and has clear economics around it. If it is live/linear or VoD across cable or fiber, people know how to predict, build and charge for it to run a business.

Even alternative Internet video today via CDN or hosters is pretty clear and mostly has solid economics if the proper payment systems are in place (they pay someone) for transit delivery and no one exploits the peering infrastructure.

Where it breaks down is with P2P. Shifting all the costs of video delivery to the consumer based infrastructure (and in turn consumers) does not have clear economics behind it. Some call it "free", others call it "helps the ISP", and others see it as the "holy grail" of CDN. The problem is, none of those people pay the bill in a P2P delivery world.

You know who REALLY wants unlimited???? Content companies that want to use your and my bandwidth for "free"

It's not as simple as "stick it to the man". Find me a real study that shows P2P is cheaper OVER ALL and not just for the content owners. Look into this a little bit more as it is a real technical and business issue.

[EDIT: These statements are not meant to support protocol based throttling. Which I personally do not]

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
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·North State Commun..

said by swhitney2003 See Profile :

I'm going to assume sarcasm here.
Definitely. I was preempting all the nonsense that was sure to follow. (and perhaps has outside of this thread)

I don't think you should be able to max out your line 24x7x365 and not expect some type of throttling. However, I also feel that every US Corporation instituting caps (excluding Comcast) has has set them way to low and should raise their caps in line with Comcast's 250GB, as well as lower their per GB overage charges.

If it were my decision, I would like to see a monthly usage cap, but with no throttling done until that cap is reached and no per Mbps limit either. Give me a fire hose and lower the water pressure after I've used my 250 gallons. I can understand why removing the per Mbps cap isn't really possible with the current systems in use and would probably wind up being an especially bad idea -- I can see Little Johnny Pirate deciding to save his 250GB for December 31st so he can utilize 250GB on December 31st and another 250GB on January 1st, thus crippling his node for 48 hours.

swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
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Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?

Maybe a rolling usage would be better? 250GB within the past 30 days instead of by bill period? That way you cannot just pound the node for 48 hours straight. Just a thought, implementing it and the money to do that... I am clueless.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH
Perfect post!

swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
Premium
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Target bittorrent

So are they also going to target encrypted traffic too? This is probably why the US providers moved away from targeting and focused on overall bandwidth caps.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net

Re: Target bittorrent

I am doing perfectly legal bit torrent downloads of documentary TV shows from Great Britain, I watch such programs shortly after they air so it is kind of like a internet DVR. I am now able to get them in HD with an hour long shows going about 2.5 gigs With My Qwest DSL connection I can download these shows in less the 2 hours, sometime much less. limits such as this would impact me badly. With something like this I would feel like the baby thrown out with the bath water.
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
swarto112

join:2004-02-17
Tampa, FL

Punishes Microsft users on patch Tues

Guess anyone who owns a Microsoft OS will get punished on Tuesday's. They turn on a couple of computers that day and they'll be throttled after getting their patches and watching a couple of you tube videos...lol
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: Punishes Microsft users on patch Tues

you are joking right? When is the last time your windows update client pointed to a torrent? never. next time please read the article.

Corehhi

join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC

Going back to the old days sort of

For those of you who don't remember dial up, throttling is basically what use to happen. LOL> I had to down load things over night because I couldn't get my "full connection speed" because simply in the evening to many people were on line. 5-8 PM the download speeds were half or worse than after 11 PM>

I don't see the big deal. Like someone said get a business line if your going to go nuts using bandwidth. I can't even think of what you would be doing that's legal to use all that bandwidth???? Sending a blu ray movie to your sling box 24 hours a day???

swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
Premium
join:2003-06-13
NH
clubs:

Re: Going back to the old days sort of

UPLOADING many different distros of linux. That should be pretty easy to do all day long, no human intervention needed.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

another wacky idea

Wouldn't this make the cost of providing service vs the revenue gained be an obscene profit at the expense of the consumer?

These seem like terms of service, only a MEDIA company (with copyrights to protect) would love... oh wait... nevermind.
aaron12345

join:2002-12-17
Falls Church, VA

time throttling

I thought if you're going to throttle, the time based one is a lot fairer, more transparent, and makes a lot more sense as far as throttling goes.

I'd just schedule my downloads for the other 70% of the day...

It solves the peak load problem, without crippling people's connections 24/7, and you know right where you stand.
Forums » Virgin Takes Aim At BitTorrent


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