 
oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| Still fairly generous... If Verizon is capping at around 10GB that is still pretty generous and they should simply advertise it as such rather than lie in their advertising.
Unlimited = unlimited
Anything less than unlimited is a lie and Verizon should be held accountable for their deceptive advertising practices. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by oliphant  :Anything less than unlimited is a lie and Verizon should be held accountable for their deceptive advertising practices. Agreed... the FTC needs to better enforce existing laws against this sort of false advertising.
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Tancredo 2008! | |
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| | frogli
join:2003-10-12
Yaphank, NY | Re: Still fairly generous... SPRINT!!!!!!!
Enough said | |
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| | JazzJRabbit
join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL | I thought deregulation was the key? Let the private enterprises do what they are doing since governments obviously can't do a better job?
Changing sides much? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by JazzJRabbit :I thought deregulation was the key? Let the private enterprises do what they are doing since governments obviously can't do a better job? Changing sides much? Huh?
There are laws against false advertising and there are government agencies that are tasked with enforcing these laws. Verizon cannot legally advertise a service as being "unlimited" and then impose some sort of limit. Either Verizon should make it very clear in the advertising what the limit is, or simply stop using the word "Unlimited."
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Tancredo 2008! | |
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| | | | JazzJRabbit
join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by pnh102 :Huh? There are laws against false advertising and there are government agencies that are tasked with enforcing these laws. Verizon cannot legally advertise a service as being "unlimited" and then impose some sort of limit. Either Verizon should make it very clear in the advertising what the limit is, or simply stop using the word "Unlimited." OK, let me be crystal clear since you are going to be running around the isuue forever otherwise. You've made your entire point yesterday (see here »Seize the Incumbent Networks) that government cannot do anything effectively, be it public schools, amtrak, securing borders, social security/welfare services or even interstate highways. And you argued profusely that businesses know best and that "The assumption that government control of the Internet would result in decent service & competitive business is wrong". You said it just yesterday. So why are you turning to the government now to regulate the industry? I thought that "anything good that happens in this country is the result of hard working people and elbow grease, not the government". So why not let the hard working people of verizon (with some help from uncle sam elbow grease) handle the issue? Why do you want government to intervene now if they can't get anything right? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by JazzJRabbit :So why are you turning to the government now to regulate the industry? The last i checked, the government is charged with enforcing the law. This is not done by private companies.
And again, you've proven my point about how badly the government is doing a job of that when it doesn't even enforce the laws on the books.
Asking that the government simply do the job it is supposed to be doing is not the same as saying that the government should not usurp ownership of a private industry.
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Tancredo 2008! | |
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| | | | | | JazzJRabbit
join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by pnh102 :The last i checked, the government is charged with enforcing the law. This is not done by private companies. And again, you've proven my point about how badly the government is doing a job of that when it doesn't even enforce the laws on the books. Asking that the government simply do the job it is supposed to be doing is not the same as saying that the government should not usurp ownership of a private industry. Actually the government is charged with both enforcing and creating the laws. So it is all the same, whether is's enforcing already exhisting laws or creating new ones to ensure competition and fair business practices.
Keeping what I just wrote in mind, let me rephrase it once again. Your point in the thread yesterday was that since government cannot do its job effectively we should let the private enterprise roam free without ANY regulation. It is what you said yesterday and I quoted you twice on this matter. And this news piece shows exactly what would happen if you completely removed government regulation. So why are you suddenly all for government intervention now? Is there any pattern as to how and whn you switch sides? | |
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| | | | | | | ibpitcher2
join:2003-10-29
New York, NY | Re: Still fairly generous... Government regulation of an industry and enforcing laws that protect consumers from false advertising are two separate things. Once that is understood you'll realize that he's not flip flopping on anything. | |
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| | | | | | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Enforcing existing laws regarding deceptive practices does not equal confiscating private networks and having the government run them.
He's very consistent.
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Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·BroadVoice
| said by JazzJRabbit :said by pnh102 :Huh? There are laws against false advertising and there are government agencies that are tasked with enforcing these laws. Verizon cannot legally advertise a service as being "unlimited" and then impose some sort of limit. Either Verizon should make it very clear in the advertising what the limit is, or simply stop using the word "Unlimited." OK, let me be crystal clear since you are going to be running around the isuue forever otherwise. You've made your entire point yesterday (see here » Seize the Incumbent Networks) that government cannot do anything effectively, be it public schools, amtrak, securing borders, social security/welfare services or even interstate highways. And you argued profusely that businesses know best and that "The assumption that government control of the Internet would result in decent service & competitive business is wrong". You said it just yesterday. So why are you turning to the government now to regulate the industry? I thought that "anything good that happens in this country is the result of hard working people and elbow grease, not the government". So why not let the hard working people of verizon (with some help from uncle sam elbow grease) handle the issue? Why do you want government to intervene now if they can't get anything right? I suppose I could let pnh102 answer for himself, but I MUST say something. You clearly dont have any idea about, well, anything! Citizens and private companies cant enforce laws (unless they are deputized, and thats another discussion) so your argument makes no sense. Citizens and companies follow/obey laws, government creates/enforces laws. Get it? Good! Your post is so dumb I dont even know why I am responding, but I am really looking out for you. You are only going to dig yourself deeper into a hole if you keep adding to this "argument" of yours.
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сумасшедшая обезьяна! | |
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| | | | | | JazzJRabbit
join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by wifi4milez :I suppose I could let pnh102 answer for himself, but I MUST say something. You clearly dont have any idea about, well, anything! Citizens and private companies cant enforce laws (unless they are deputized, and thats another discussion) so your argument makes no sense. Citizens and companies follow/obey laws, government creates/enforces laws. Get it? Good! Your post is so dumb I dont even know why I am responding, but I am really looking out for you. You are only going to dig yourself deeper into a hole if you keep adding to this "argument" of yours. What I'm arguing with pnh is not enforcing the laws, this is just the context, it's his position. One day he argues for complete removal of any government oversight and the next day he is all for government intervention. So, who is dumb now? You. | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| Re: Still fairly generous... said by JazzJRabbit :said by wifi4milez :I suppose I could let pnh102 answer for himself, but I MUST say something. You clearly dont have any idea about, well, anything! Citizens and private companies cant enforce laws (unless they are deputized, and thats another discussion) so your argument makes no sense. Citizens and companies follow/obey laws, government creates/enforces laws. Get it? Good! Your post is so dumb I dont even know why I am responding, but I am really looking out for you. You are only going to dig yourself deeper into a hole if you keep adding to this "argument" of yours. What I'm arguing with pnh is not enforcing the laws, this is just the context, it's his position. One day he argues for complete removal of any government oversight and the next day he is all for government intervention. So, who is dumb now? You. Government oversight and law enforcement are two totally different things, and can't be compared in any way. I see that you are trying to challenge his position on something, but you could not have picked a worse exaple. Bad choice. Your comments make you "look" as if you dont know what you are talking about, and your continued arguing makes it "seem" that might actually be the case..... 
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сумасшедшая обезьяна! | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
1 edit | Oh brother. Pnh didn't say he's "all for" anything. Nice try though. Well actually it wasn't...rather it was very weak. | |
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Anonamous2000
@rr.com | I suppose you think that abolishing the Internal Revenue Service and establishing a regressive sales tax would be a good idea also. Perhaps the deregulation of the energy sector was a good idea. It resulted in such wonderful companies as Enron. | |
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Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY
| said by JazzJRabbit :...since the government obviously can't do a better job? Can't or won't? | |
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AnonymousPerson
@optonline.net
| Deregulation != Allowing False Advertising
While businesses have the freedom to run themselves, freedom itself is limited. If it is to be considered unlimited, it ceases to be freedom and instead is license, the ability to do whatever the heck you want to do whenever you feel like doing it (i.e. "freedom of expression") and that is not permitted within the Constitution of the United States of America. If a business decides that it will falsely advertise its products and services, then the legal system comes into play. If a business decides to cut back on salaries, government has no authority to do anything. The ability to respond to that is reserved by the people and the only way the government can respond is by controlling them, where they work and what they do, which is Marxism. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by oliphant :If Verizon is capping at around 10GB that is still pretty generous and they should simply advertise it as such rather than lie in their advertising. Unlimited = unlimited Anything less than unlimited is a lie and Verizon should be held accountable for their deceptive advertising practices. They do tell subscribers about the caps in the sign-up agreements. But I agree that they shouldn't use the word unlimited in advertising if they want to keep the customers happy.
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
1 edit | Re: Still fairly generous... I had the plan and there were no actual caps stated in my service agreement...only the ambiguous don't kill our network speak. But they didn't advertise a don't kill our network plan...they advertised and sold me on an unlimited plan.
They, like many operators before them (eg Comcast) want their cake and eat it too...bait and switch. Comcast changed their advertising away from unlimited and Verizon should do it to.
Verizon's offering is still a fair deal. IOW, it's good enough that VZ doesn't have to lie about it in order to sell it. | |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
| 10GB is still a lot That's a lot of mobile data. You'd be hard pressed to hit that amount, unless its your main connection.
But yeah, unlimited should mean unlimited. I work for Bell in Canada, and our EVDO was being advertised as unlimited, even though there was a 250 MB cap. In a heartening turn of events, front line employees complained loud and hard, and the name changed to 'Platinum' with the cap plainly visible in all our literature. Score one for the little guy.
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Click this and read. -> »www.actsofgord.com/
»Canadian Wireless FAQ
I'm laying pipe,
all night long,
laying pipe,
to satisfy that woman.
- David Wilcox | |
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| yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | Re: 10GB is still a lot That's the biggest bloody rip off. $100 bucks a month for 250MB. | |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB | Re: 10GB is still a lot Nobody's forcing you to get it, and it's competitive to what's available in the marketplace. | |
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| | | yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | Re: 10GB is still a lot Exactly, I'd never buy that. Better than Rogers' 100MB but still a rip off. | |
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| and... if you're spending that much time downloading on your phone you have no life... 
I don't know that I download that much in a month anyway, let alone if I had a telephone to do it with.
Agree though that "unlimited" ought to mean just that, and if there is a limit, it should be clearly stated in the terms. Should one exceed (clearly stated!) said limit, it should also be clear how much you'll be charged (per 100MB??) just like the minutes on one's plan... | |
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| itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA
| Re: and... quote:
if you're spending that much time downloading on your phone you have no life...
I don't know that I download that much in a month anyway, let alone if I had a telephone to do it with.
Then you don't have a smartphone. I have my Treo set to get mail every 30 mins, and some light web surfing, and I'm blowing through about 7-8MB a day (210MB in 30 days) and that's not counting hitting a web site with a lot of graphics.
And this is over Cingular's slower EDGE network - I'd imagine a faster network would have me using it a little more.
Thank God Cingular doesn't have these "caps". | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN | Re: and... So you are trying to demonstrate how downloading 210MB a month with a smartphone somehome equates to others downloading 10GB, a 50x increase?
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Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? | |
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| | | itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA | Re: and... The person I replied to was replying to the individual who was discussing the 250MB cap of their provider. I was explaining how 250MB is not an unreasonable amount in a month. | |
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| | | | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| Re: and... actually I was just talking about the 10GB...
not the 250MB, which is not unreasonable.
...I was only saying that someone using up 10GB through a phone should have better things to do... like use their phone for talking, or enjoying life etc...
no, don't have a smartphone, and I don't know if it'd even be possible with current ones to effectively use 10GB worth of data... let alone worthwhile...
what you use yours for seems quite reasonable, and of course if it were faster with higher cap one would want to use it more!!!
If I had one, I would love to somehow put Rhapsody on the thing and I would certainly use up way more than 250MB/month!!! ...Rhapsody everywhere... would be bliss.
The thing I'm talking about is hooking one up to a laptop, for raw internet access etc. Unless there's a real need for it, I think it'd be a bit difficult to use that much in a month IMHO since I personally don't know if I even use that much out of a cable broadband connection... hence I see the cap as somewhat reasonable ..IF.. it is clearly stated and the overages wouldn't totally suck (of course, they would, just like going over minutes.)
If you were travelling a lot, using VPN, downloading movies, music, games, etc I guess it's entirely possible to use up more than 10GB... esp. if they count that up AND down, for a total useage....which they likely do. | |
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Gilitar
join:2000-11-20
Mobile, AL | Sprint If you want data Sprint is the company to go with anyway. Sprint will destroy the other wireless carriers with 4g. | |
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JamesPC
join:2005-10-12
Orange, CA | Re: Sprint Are you a sprint employee...if not they should pay you. All of these communication companies have there drones. | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
2 edits | Unlimited access Verizon is selling unlimited access - not unlimited bandwidth. It's pretty clear on their web site. Plus, the following terms are clearly spelled out:
Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess:
Subject to VZAccess Acceptable Use Policy, available on www.verizonwireless.com. NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess data sessions may be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force and field service automation). Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess services cannot be used (1) for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, (2) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, but not limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, Voice over IP (VoIP), automated machine-to-machine connections, or peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing, or (3) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections. NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess is for individual use only and is not for resale. We reserve right to limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone we believe is using NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels. Verizon Wireless reserves the right to protect its network from harm, which may impact legitimate data flows. We also reserve the right to terminate service upon expiration of Customer Agreement term.
I'm not a Verizon fan but you can't really complain here. It took me all of 2 minutes to find this on the web site.
If you don't like it, then do business with a more reasonable company. | |
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See 10 replies to this post |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD | On another note.... this might be a little taste of what's coming our way for wired broadband after net neutrality leaves the building. | |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
 ·epix
| Re: On another note.... You're absolutely correct Nasadude Which reminds me of a proverb, Can't remember it exactly, it goes something like this.
Never invite or allow? a camel to poke its nose into your tent because its just a matter of time before the rest of the camel follows.
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Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
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Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: On another note.... Unless you punch that camel right in the face  | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Come on folks Really. It's the same argument that comes up every couple of weeks where someone realizes that their broadband isn't unlimited data, it's unlimited connectivity. You can stay connected 24/7 as far as Verizon cares, you just can't download >10GB of data.
Yeah Verizon might have pulled a deceptive advertising trick. But it's 100% accurate for what you are getting. You just misinterperted what they were saying. IT'S CALLED MARKETING. Marketing is all about getting away with as much as you can without actually lying.
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Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? | |
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tsu9
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Come on folks The thing that keeps rehashing is that connectivity is only as such, if there is something to connect to. | |
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inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK
1 edit | said by cdru :Really. It's the same argument that comes up every couple of weeks where someone realizes that their broadband isn't unlimited data, it's unlimited connectivity. You can stay connected 24/7 as far as Verizon cares, you just can't download >10GB of data. that is such a "no shit Sherlock" interpretation. it wouldn't stand up in court. by using that definition, verizon is implying they offer a service that doesn't offer unlimited connectivity, which they dont.
ISPs have been unlimited for as long as I can remember. DIALUP was unlimited under that stupid definition. Stay connected as long as you want, as long as you are willing to pay the fees and any long distance.
This would be like the utility company saying I have unlimited water or unlimited electricity because I can always leave the light on 24/7.
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"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!" | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: Come on folks said by inteller :that is such a "no shit Sherlock" interpretation. it wouldn't stand up in court. by using that definition, verizon is implying they offer a service that doesn't offer unlimited connectivity, which they dont. ISPs have been unlimited for as long as I can remember. DIALUP was unlimited under that stupid definition. Stay connected as long as you want, as long as you are willing to pay the fees and any long distance. You apparently aren't all that old. Dialup was exactly where "unlimited" came from. Back when dialup was metered and you paid by the hour. Anything over that amount that was part of the plan and you paid extra, much like cell phones are today. Early on the "unlimited" (as in time, not data) was a premium level service. Metered dialup is mostly a thing of the past unless you go with an ultracheap ISP.
Most telephone/VoIP/cell phones that offer some form of unlimited calling have restrictions that they can't be used over some threshold (typically indicative of business use). This would be similar case.
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Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? | |
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roamer1
sticking it out at you
join:2001-03-24
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
| Re: Come on folks said by cdru :Most telephone/VoIP/cell phones that offer some form of unlimited calling have restrictions that they can't be used over some threshold (typically indicative of business use). This would be similar case. I have yet to see a local phone company (not VoIP) that has a cap for purely local calling. LD, including "local" calling plans that include some LD, is another story altogether -- some unlimited LD and local/LD plans, such as MCI's and I believe Qwest's, have explicit caps (IIRC, 5000 minutes in both cases), others don't and look at high usage on a case-by-case basis.
As for cell phones, the "true unlimited" cell phone companies such as Metro PCS do not cap. "Unlimited" nights and weekends on cell phone plans is rarely capped unless it's all roaming on other carriers (hence all the complaints about Cingular lately). As for that report of T-Mobile canceling someone for "excessive use", I think there's more to that than has been brought to light.
-SC
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"it seems like all you ever buy is Abercrombie and cell phones" --a friend | |
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JohnnyZ28
@68.87.x.x
| Re: Unlimited Just as someone said they are selling unlimited access. This isn't new for the industry as nearly all wired broadband/DSL providers use this terminology. You are connected 100% of the time (if you don't shut off the modem), but eventually you will hit a cap. Companies only pay out for the bandwidth that is being used.
Also, I know for working for one of the largest cable companies that it's hard to hit the cap. I use my service 3-4 hours a day, play XBOX Live, play FPS games, and download a bunch of music. I have come nowhere near any cap that our service may have.
As a matter of fact, people that repeatedly hit these caps will get a letter in the mail. It will say something to the effect of, "You are exceeding the amount of bandwidth that is offered with your service level. Please start using less or you can upgrade to an unlimited bandwidth business account."
There are less than one tenth of a percent that hit these limits on our service. When these people call in they usually admit to using newsgroups or running gaming servers which is against the user agreements. It's not our fault they decide to break the rules. And, if they really use their internet that much... is it that hard to pay $90/month for a business account that offers a static ip address as well?
Some people want way more service for a less amount of money. It's the way things work in this industry. People will complain all they want, but they are the minority. Luckily, the majority rules. People also complain about how much a particular company "rapes" them. If they feel raped why don't they switch to another provider? Is it that bad that a company tries to turn a profit to pay their employees, benefits, etc?
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| | | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Re: Unlimited Agreed. These SOB's need to make it plain and clear what these arbitrary caps are UP FRONT. And quit advertising 'Unlimited BroadbandAccess' when it is NOT. | |
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The Answer Guy
@uu.net
| Re: Unlimited The issue of unlimited will never be resolved here. We will always have people that believe it should be one way with hard data caps. The others will always believe that the companies are not lying in stating "unlimited broadband access."
However, it is not an issue here to say one way or the other. This country is ruled by lawyers and politicians; therefore, we are here to follow whatever they say. So far, it has been determined that these ISPs are giving true statements. Otherwise, they would be forced to change them to something with the proper limits stated. I am just guessing, but someone out there probably has sued an ISP for their "unlimited access" rules. All ISPs probably follow these cases to create their disclaimers.
Complaining is sometimes just a waste of energy as I think the case is here. Lets spend our time worrying about something that really matters when it comes to broadband. Lets worry about providing decent broadband to everyone in the country. | |
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HashedOut
@192.211.x.x | Re: Unlimited This really hasnt been hashed out yet.
The V710 lawsuit took forever. I have
a feeling an Unlimited EVDO suit is coming.
It surely isnt unreasonable if you are
buying a product with a limitation to
be told about it. | |
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cmcgilton
join:2001-03-14
Stow, OH
| Another Factor To Consider IMHO with wireline broadband, whether it be cable, fiber or DSL, the operating company involved may be able to more accurately predict how much "pipe" will be required under most controlled circumstances to handle peak customer demand. Understand this is much more difficult to do in a wireless environment whereby many cells sites are not in locations where adequate "pipes" can be brought to the cell sites due to location. In addition it is fairly predictable but not precise to predict how many customers and how much usage the customers will use at any given time off of any particular cell site. These are perhaps some of the reasons why speed limits and caps are in place for wireless broadband via cellular networks. | |
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NewCaliGuy
@charter.com
| Re: Another Factor To Consider Guys just to state my opinion...
1 Too many companies get away with misleading advertising, but that doesn't make it right. This to me, is one of those cases. Unlimited is unlimited...period.
2. I have slingbox on a vx6700, I've monitored my usage and its not going anywhere near 10GB. It uses very little bandwidth for what its doing. For example, last month I used it for about 1-2 hours a day with surfing the internet 1 hour (on and off a day) and I only used about 1.3G.
3. This refers back to point # one. They are limiting it to 10G to cover their a$$. You see normal people will never hit the 10G limit, but there are ALWAYS some people that will try and take advantage of the "unlimited". One example would be to start hosting websites with a cable connection. If you have unlimited, you could put up as many sites as your connection can handle at a time and still be charged only $30 bucks a month. The problem with that is that if LOTS of people start doing that, there would be a big bandwidth problem. | |
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Kompressor
Premium
join:2002-02-12
Huntington Beach, CA | Unlimited does not equal 10GB a month! When is somebody going to start suing these companies for false advertising? | |
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Verizon Wireless: Unlimited is 10GB a Month
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