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story category Verizon Union Workers Set Sunday Strike Deadline
Negotiations continue but unions say Verizon needs to stop dragging feet
09:56AM Saturday Aug 09 2008 by KathrynV
tags: business · telco · trouble · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSL
Tipped by TK Junk Mail See Profile
Two unions representing 65,000 employees have been in negotiations with Verizon regarding the details of a labor contract that was supposed to expire last Sunday. Negotiations appeared to be going well and the contract was temporarily extended into this week so that further discussion could take place. However negotiations are not yet complete and a new deadline for the contract has been set for tomorrow night. If an agreement is not reached by then, a strike may take place next week. Verizon claims to be surprised by the deadline, saying that they have been diligently working on resolving the issues that are of concern to the union, but the union says that the company is dragging its feet on the remaining issues related to subcontracting jobs and organizing non-union workers.

Related:
  1. When FiOS Attacks!
  2. FiOS Users Not Getting Promised Free TVs
  3. Tampa Tribune Highlights FiOS Billing Problems
  4. Special Sunday Meeting May Block Verizon-Fairpoint Sale
  5. Verizon Unions Prep For Strike
  6. Verizon Union Workers Not Striking Yet
  7. Verizon, Unions Reach Agreement
  8. Verizon Has No Plans To Cap, Throttle
Forums » Verizon Union Workers Set Sunday Strike Deadline
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baineschile

join:2008-05-10
Oak Park, MI

Strike

As long as the strike is running over the fiber optic lines, it should be over very quick.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com

Re: Strike

said by baineschile See Profile :

As long as the strike is running over the fiber optic lines, it should be over very quick.
If the union strikes, I'll be shocked. They only way unions really make a point is if the strike and it hurts the company. However, if it really hurts too much, like GM, you might have just unemployed yourself.
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl

JustTheFactsMam

@comcast.net

Re: Strike

said by supergirl See Profile :

However, if it really hurts too much, like GM, you might have just unemployed yourself.
IMO, poor quality killed the once 'Big 3'. You really can't blame the unions for having to overhaul a poorly designed motor/transmission at 50,000 mile intervals.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
You know it's not actually a series of tubes, right?

cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.

join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
Please don't strike! Our Verizon T1's go down at work every time it rains! Who's going to fix them then?

Shadow01

join:2003-10-24
Wasteland

Re: Strike

said by cypherstream See Profile :

Please don't strike! Our Verizon T1's go down at work every time it rains! Who's going to fix them then?
High quality, low paid contractors "scabs" or managers, which do you prefer?
keyboard5684

join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
·Verizon Online DSL
·Vonage

Re: Strike

Last time they striked I got FASTER service. A manager actually came out and fixed the T1 after 20 minutes.

Union is outdated. It brings the costs way up, they have too many rights (more than a normal employee does) and there is entirely too much corruption.

The union employees could care less about the company itself. If the employees gave a crap they might actually report problems, fix things on the go (meaning they see something wrong on the pole right next to them they fix it, like covering bare wires), and offer better quality of service to the company. Caring about who they work for rather than the union and money may actually help them in the long run.

jerryjam

@verizon.net

Re: Strike

you have no clue what you are talking about
keyboard5684

join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
·Verizon Online DSL
·Vonage

Re: Strike

That is the most thoughtful response I have received.

Why do I have no clue. I said they showed up faster/repaired it faster.

I have had probably 20 T1 repairs (not the same T1) or more in my lifetime and that was the fastest.

So what I said means I have no clue what I am talking about, why? People that respond like that should be deleted.

You said nothing but an insult, that is it. No facts, no content at all, just a badly composed insult.

mod_wastrel

join:2008-03-28
Maybe they'd actually show up for installation appointments, too.
hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

Re: Strike

They showed up. It took them 5 seconds to park, knock and drive off. By the time you got to the door (if you heard the knock), all you could smell was the exhaust of the company van speeding out.

Acc708

join:2008-06-28

said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

Maybe they'd actually show up for installation appointments, too.
Another uninformed decision. Who do you think allows for the over scheduling of orders? Clue, it is not the associates. It's the management.

mod_wastrel

join:2008-03-28
·magicjack.com

Re: Strike

said by Acc708 See Profile :

said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

Maybe they'd actually show up for installation appointments, too.
Another uninformed decision. Who do you think allows for the over scheduling of orders? Clue, it is not the associates. It's the management.
Another uninformed assumption. The installer parked down the street, crawled back into the truck after putting out cones, and apparently took a nap for an hour or so before driving off--probably too tired from a Friday night of partying. He arrived on the street at the appointed time but simply called in to say no one was home, not knowing that the resident of the home was on the phone with Verizon support at that exact time. There was no over-scheduling, just a lazy-ass installer.

Acc708

join:2008-06-28

Re: Strike

said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

said by Acc708 See Profile :

said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

Maybe they'd actually show up for installation appointments, too.
Another uninformed decision. Who do you think allows for the over scheduling of orders? Clue, it is not the associates. It's the management.
Another uninformed assumption. The installer parked down the street, crawled back into the truck after putting out cones, and apparently took a nap for an hour or so before driving off--probably too tired from a Friday night of partying. He arrived on the street at the appointed time but simply called in to say no one was home, not knowing that the resident of the home was on the phone with Verizon support at that exact time. There was no over-scheduling, just a lazy-ass installer.
Speaking of assumptions, you state "the" installer, yet you claim "they'd". Because you had a bad experience doesn't mean all installer's do this. I also don't have the installer's side of the story, so listening to your side doesn't make you right. It only means your side was heard. The funny thing is this, most of us have gps in our vehicle which means if parking down the street, the tech has a variance management will be looking at. Many a customer assume because a tech is in the area, they must be there for them since no one else could possibly be getting a service visit in the same immediate area. Just because you saw a tech doesn't mean it was your tech. Besides, as I said earlier, one scenario doesn't make a broad accusation accurate. Besides, an hour nap and you were on the phone all that time? Why would you be on the phone if the installer were there?

Many a time I've had a customer tell me how the installer did this or that, only to correct them in their lie because they were too stupid to acknowledge I am the one they were talking about. He never came to the door. Funny, I distinctly remember knocking twice and hitting the door bell twice, but since a customer says this, it must be true.

I'm sorry if you had a legitimately bad experience, truly I am, but one gets sick of being lumped in as a bad guy by union hating ignorance and jealousy.

mod_wastrel

join:2008-03-28
·magicjack.com

Re: Strike

People, including myself, often use "they" instead of saying "he" or "she" to avoid any chauvinism with respect to gender; I was trying to be non-specific. As a rule, I've had nothing but excellent service from the Vz techs who have done work for me... but it only takes one to throw a bad light on all.

The "assumption" made in this customer's case was that the tech down the street was working on someone's else's install/issue, until the end of the day when it was discovered that the time that the tech called in that no one was home was the time that the truck was parked there. The customer was on the phone at the time the installer called in (according to what the customer was told by customer support) to say the customer wasn't home--not for the entire time that the truck was parked down the street. The customer's front door was open all afternoon--no one could have thought no one was home.

I couldn't care less about union or non-union. We waited 3 weeks plus all day for someone to never show up. I don't really care if every other Vz tech is excellent. This one didn't show up and lied about it.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com

Well, considering when I had Bell and it took 8 techs and 1 engineer to fix static and the guy that fixed it was a new tech and found a simple screw loose in the NID, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE! Do it know. Let's so how bad VZ POTS sucks without workers? It can't get much worse. Two weeks to fix a POTS line? What is it rocket science now? And, to be blunt, Comcast is kicking VZ's butt anyway so all those VZ people will eventually be working for a non-union company anyway. Well, except the FIOS people us stockholders hope. The Strike would be COMCASTIC!
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl
ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT

Re: Strike

quote:
Well, considering when I had Bell and it took 8 techs and 1 engineer to fix static and the guy that fixed it was a new tech and found a simple screw loose in the NID, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE! Do it know. Let's so how bad VZ POTS sucks without workers? It can't get much worse. Two weeks to fix a POTS line? What is it rocket science now? And, to be blunt, Comcast is kicking VZ's butt anyway so all those VZ people will eventually be working for a non-union company anyway. Well, except the FIOS people us stockholders hope. The Strike would be COMCASTIC
Rocket Science ?? Look at your grasp of the English language ! You are exxagerating your situation.. and if youre so damn smart, the NID is accessable and you shouldve fixed it.. huh??????
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Strike

But according to this site that's what the UNIONS GET PAID FOR since their so experienced and nobody else could NEVER provide the same level of service to the customers that they do.


supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com

said by ITALIAN926 See Profile :

quote:
Well, considering when I had Bell and it took 8 techs and 1 engineer to fix static and the guy that fixed it was a new tech and found a simple screw loose in the NID, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE! Do it know. Let's so how bad VZ POTS sucks without workers? It can't get much worse. Two weeks to fix a POTS line? What is it rocket science now? And, to be blunt, Comcast is kicking VZ's butt anyway so all those VZ people will eventually be working for a non-union company anyway. Well, except the FIOS people us stockholders hope. The Strike would be COMCASTIC
Rocket Science ?? Look at your grasp of the English language ! You are exxagerating your situation.. and if youre so damn smart, the NID is accessable and you shouldve fixed it.. huh??????
Ummm, there were two NIDs. One in the apartment all the techs couldn't get (alarm system). The other was outside. I don't have access to a box that says, "BellSouth only" (that had wiring for 8 apartments) and that was were the screw was loose. I did cancel that ridiculous maintenance plan after they fixed it. They blamed the alarm system. The last tech, a newbie, found it in 15 minutes. IDIOTS! This only went on for THREE DAMN MONTHS!
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl

Lazy and Greedy

@comcast.net

Most of you have some valid points. However, the mgmt. is not completely responsible for the problems with getting repair jobs completed, or the time it takes a tech to do an install. I was lucky enough to watch a tech install FiOS a few weeks ago. I wanted to fire him myself as he took pride in telling me that "they" want these jobs done in 4 hours, but they all stretch it to 8. Ensuring job security for their futures. A very shortsighted view indeed. Take pride in your work, keep customers happy, and KEEP CUSTOMERS! This clown literally walked to his van and carried a single set top box into the house, walked back out to get the remote, then repeated 4 more times. Truly ridiculous. I have friends that work on both sides, and it's just as bad within the call centers. I am torn as I believe in Unions, but I do see firsthand how some lazy people get protection even when its clearly abusive to the customer and the company. What ever happened to fair days work for a fair days pay? And, despite what some techs or customer service reps may say, these guys are very well taken care of. Take it from someone who has been on both sides. I say strike if the company who saw 3.4 billion in profits in a single quarter can't see how taking care of ALL the people who help build the company that allows them to have million dollar apartments in NYC, private jets, and ridiculous bonuses every year. FYI, the profit margin on Caller ID service alone is over 34,000%, yes, thats thousands...............
alchav

join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA

said by keyboard5684 See Profile :

Last time they striked I got FASTER service. A manager actually came out and fixed the T1 after 20 minutes.

Union is outdated. It brings the costs way up, they have too many rights (more than a normal employee does) and there is entirely too much corruption.

The union employees could care less about the company....
Keyboard, you hit the nail on the head, it's too bad that Unions have out lived their usefulness. Now people use Unions as a crutch, and many of the people left have no talent, are always complaining, and could not care less for The Customer. The Managers come in and take over the jobs and things get done. So don't worry about the Strike, things might get better.
Hellrazor

join:2002-02-02
Abyss

said by Shadow01 See Profile :

said by cypherstream See Profile :

Please don't strike! Our Verizon T1's go down at work every time it rains! Who's going to fix them then?
High quality, low paid contractors "scabs" or managers, which do you prefer?
Pretty obvious the high paid union workers can't get it right. Maybe he has a better chance with the scabs.

Acc708

join:2008-06-28

Re: Strike

said by Hellrazor See Profile :

said by Shadow01 See Profile :

said by cypherstream See Profile :

Please don't strike! Our Verizon T1's go down at work every time it rains! Who's going to fix them then?
High quality, low paid contractors "scabs" or managers, which do you prefer?
Pretty obvious the high paid union workers can't get it right. Maybe he has a better chance with the scabs.
A clear display of your absolute ignorance of the outside plant. The reason the t-1 goes down all the time is because management refuses to replace the cable that is past it's expected lifetime. They have forced technicians to band aid everything for at least the past ten years or more. They put everything into fios and wonder why dial tone customers are leaving in areas where there is no fios and going to cable companies and companies like Vonage. They charge more and give less.

cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.

join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
·Cingular Wireless

Well we have fiber run into our facility where I work, but Verizon refuses to light it unless we go with T3 service. There's no way we are going to pay the monthly bill for T3 service. We have a full T1 for Voice, and another full T1 for Data, plus some Point to Point T1's to other locations.

It seems whenever it rains or storms the T1's are always down, (at least one of them). Thank god for MPLS backup circuits. The newest location does have T1 over fiber because its a newer building. Oddly enough we have the fiber in our basement at the demarc, but they wont light it! Little do they know that it would be much less headaches to run T1 over the fiber, as it's a passive network. No more flooded manholes with damaged repeater cards, or overheated cards. T1 service from VZ has been pretty unreliable, and that's unacceptable for that level of service. My Comcast cable modem at home has been more reliable and faster than business class T1 at work. I find that backwards if you ask me.

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
Just waiting now for the ratification vote, but the strike has been called off.
»news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080810/bs_···rpact_dc

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Root For The Winning Team!

GO SCABS!

S_engineer

join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

said by pnh102 See Profile :

GO SCABS!
So, your willing to give up weekends, benefits, and the forty hour work week that the unions have given to you. All of the production of goods in China, outsourcing of jobs to India, and justification for 50 million dollar CEOs comes from your mentality.

Unless your willing to say yes to my first question, then you're being hypocritical. I hope your kids like working at Walmart.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

Unions never gave me weekends off. They never gave me a 40hour work week.

I hope your kids like working for WM as well. Union or non-union you bet that VZ will do something the Unions will not like in terms of call centers or lay offs later.

Maybe announce they're using an out-sourced company to install FiOS in many areas of NYC due to their "techs" are unable to keep up with the demand or are unable to properly install FiOS in MDUs.

Something will happen. Call centers will be shipped overseas or outsourced here. And there are MANY MANY great jobs in this Country that are NOT union.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD


edit:
August 9th, @02:34PM

said by S_engineer See Profile :

So, your willing to give up weekends, benefits, and the forty hour work week that the unions have given to you.
This is not 1935.

Piss-poor working conditions and extreme amounts of unpaid overtime have been quite illegal for a very long time now. All modern unions have done these days is to screw over the working class and finance organized crime.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

All of the production of goods in China, outsourcing of jobs to India, and justification for 50 million dollar CEOs comes from your mentality.
And why do companies do this? You don't think that unions' artificially raising the price of labor has even a little to do with this? If you want an example, Ford is building a new car plant in Mexico. Why aren't they building any new plants in the USA?
said by S_engineer See Profile :

I hope your kids like working at Walmart.
What is wrong with working at Walmart? I make it a point to shop there because fighting unions is deeply engrained into their corporate policies.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!

S_engineer

join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

"Piss-poor working conditions and extreme amounts of unpaid overtime have been quite illegal for a very long time now. All modern unions have done these days is to screw over the working class and finance organized crime"

So you paint everyone thats in a Union as a criminal or is sympathetic to one. Never mind the fact that our benefits are negotiated in a contract and not paid for by the gov't...unlike Walmart that works some people 37 1/2 hours a week to avoid being obligated to offer benefit packages. Unions created the working class. Furthermore, without the option of collective bargaining, are you stupid enough (thats the pic I paint of you) to think that corporations would offer benefits on thier own?
And by the way, the only reason benefits were initially offered by corporations to unions was to offset pay raises that Unions were asking for in the negotiation process. When offered, in the 40s and 50s, the health care industry was very cheap. Noew their own remedy has come back to bite them in the Arse.
Look now at whats offered...middle class pays a growing percentage of their income just for their own insurance...401ks instead of pensions...(yeah that will be good)91 % of 401ks have remained within +- 2% of thier pre 2001 level.
And as far as Walmart goes...your already paying for their employees healthcare....over 7 billion dollars worth.
So when you bitch about people raising your taxes, look in the mirror, your one of those peple doing it by patronizing Walmart!

PS. I'd love to see you walk up to a Union member in my city and call him a criminal...FH
--
The "Lifetime" channel is responsible for 83% of all divorces...Robert Ginty

S_engineer

join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

Now that you've saved a dollar at Walmart, are you going to get a pedicure at Miracles day spa?
--
The "Lifetime" channel is responsible for 83% of all divorces...Robert Ginty

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

said by S_engineer See Profile :

So you paint everyone thats in a Union as a criminal or is sympathetic to one.
It is an irrefutable fact that unions have strong links to organized crime. Go and read up on your union history if you have any doubt.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

Never mind the fact that our benefits are negotiated in a contract and not paid for by the gov't...unlike Walmart that works some people 37 1/2 hours a week to avoid being obligated to offer benefit packages.
So it is Walmart's fault that the government offers better welfare benefits? The scenario you describe happens in every state that has very generous taxpayer-financed medical insurance programs.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

Unions created the working class.
Yes, that was back in the 1930s. What good have unions done lately? All I see now are many formerly unionized employers shutting their doors and setting up shop in places where unions have no clout. Sadly, most of this time this ends up being in a foreign country.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

Furthermore, without the option of collective bargaining, are you stupid enough (thats the pic I paint of you) to think that corporations would offer benefits on thier own?
If this was true, then why do many non-union employers offer such benefits?
said by S_engineer See Profile :

And by the way, the only reason benefits were initially offered by corporations to unions was to offset pay raises that Unions were asking for in the negotiation process.
That is not true at all. The real reason that health benefits became part of standard compensation was because of wage controls imposed during World War II. Employers needed other incentives to lure qualified employees and health benefits became that incentive.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

Look now at whats offered...middle class pays a growing percentage of their income just for their own insurance...401ks instead of pensions...(yeah that will be good)91 % of 401ks have remained within +- 2% of thier pre 2001 level.
And look at what has happened to most union funded pensions. Many went bust. Now the taxpayer is picking up the tab. At least with a 401k people have some flexibility and control over their investments.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

And as far as Walmart goes...your already paying for their employees healthcare....over 7 billion dollars worth.
Again, it isn't Walmart's or any other corporation's fault that the welfare state is so generous. If you read up on the history of welfare in the USA you will find that it came into existence long before Walmart existed.
said by S_engineer See Profile :

PS. I'd love to see you walk up to a Union member in my city and call him a criminal...FH
Why? Because they'd prove me right?
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!

panda
Visualize Whirled Peas

join:2000-01-08
Danvers, MA

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by S_engineer See Profile :

So you paint everyone thats in a Union as a criminal or is sympathetic to one.
It is an irrefutable fact that unions have strong links to organized crime. Go and read up on your union history if you have any doubt.
I am refuting your irrefutable fact. Simply because you state "unions have strong links to organized crime" does not mean it is the truth, nor does it mean that it is the whole truth. You imply that all unions share this link. You cannot prove this, therefore your irrefutable fact is refuted. Now, go "read up" on the history of labor. Please note that I did not state that no unions have these links, nor did I state that all unions have these links. But, a better question would be why do these links even exist? Why does crime exist? Read up on *that*!

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Never mind the fact that our benefits are negotiated in a contract and not paid for by the gov't...unlike Walmart that works some people 37 1/2 hours a week to avoid being obligated to offer benefit packages.
So it is Walmart's fault that the government offers better welfare benefits? The scenario you describe happens in every state that has very generous taxpayer-financed medical insurance programs.
It is not the fault of *just* Walmart, rather it is the fault of *all* the RICH. And, if you think that welfare benefits are *better* than union benefits, try living on welfare. These programs of which you refer, how did you come upon the description of "very generous"? Have you ever had to rely on them? Do you know anyone that has? I can tell you they are not that generous at all.

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Unions created the working class.
Yes, that was back in the 1930s. What good have unions done lately? All I see now are many formerly unionized employers shutting their doors and setting up shop in places where unions have no clout. Sadly, most of this time this ends up being in a foreign country.
Back in the '30's? Yes, and we are fighting to keep the working class. We need to get people, like you, to see the need for organization. And, we need to organize those foreign countries!

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Furthermore, without the option of collective bargaining, are you stupid enough (thats the pic I paint of you) to think that corporations would offer benefits on thier own?
If this was true, then why do many non-union employers offer such benefits?
Non-union companies offer benefits *because* of the union! Not because they are good-hearted, but because the unions negotiate a fair wage, fair benefits, and fair conditions for ALL!

said by S_engineer See Profile :

And by the way, the only reason benefits were initially offered by corporations to unions was to offset pay raises that Unions were asking for in the negotiation process.
That is not true at all. The real reason that health benefits became part of standard compensation was because of wage controls imposed during World War II. Employers needed other incentives to lure qualified employees and health benefits became that incentive.
I proffer the view that it was a corporatist political ploy as the "real reason".

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Look now at whats offered...middle class pays a growing percentage of their income just for their own insurance...401ks instead of pensions...(yeah that will be good)91 % of 401ks have remained within +- 2% of thier pre 2001 level.
And look at what has happened to most union funded pensions. Many went bust. Now the taxpayer is picking up the tab. At least with a 401k people have some flexibility and control over their investments.

Not just union pensions went "bust". And you are painting much too positive a picture of the 401k as a self-managed retirement plan. How can the average worker pay into a 401k when his wages are all too quickly eaten up by living expenses? Yes, the taxpayer pays the 'tab', but it should be the corporation instead. This further enhances the corporation and the RICH. Diminishments for the worker, and only enhancements for the RICH. Nice plan...not!

said by S_engineer See Profile :

And as far as Walmart goes...your already paying for their employees healthcare....over 7 billion dollars worth.
Again, it isn't Walmart's or any other corporation's fault that the welfare state is so generous. If you read up on the history of welfare in the USA you will find that it came into existence long before Walmart existed.
But, is is Walmart's fault! The reference was to the *added* cost of Walmart's greed. And, again, you state that the welfare state is generous. Are you currently on welfare? You wouldn't call it generous if you were.

said by S_engineer See Profile :

PS. I'd love to see you walk up to a Union member in my city and call him a criminal...FH
Why? Because they'd prove me right?

No, because you would see your father or mother or brother or sister or even yourself.


--
"[He] couldn't get a clue if he stripped naked, rubbed himself with clue musk, went to the middle of the clue breeding grounds at the height of clue breeding season when it was full of horny clues and did the clue mating dance for days."

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Root For The Winning Team!

said by panda See Profile :

I am refuting your irrefutable fact. Simply because you state "unions have strong links to organized crime" does not mean it is the truth, nor does it mean that it is the whole truth.
Yawn. The history of the mafia being in bed with unions is long, strong and quite well documented. If you want to deny reality, that's fine with me.
said by panda See Profile :

Why does crime exist? Read up on *that*!
So that means it is OK for unions to be tied into organized crime?
said by panda See Profile :

It is not the fault of *just* Walmart, rather it is the fault of *all* the RICH.
How do you figure? Those evil RICH people pay the bulk of the taxes in this country that fund the generous welfare state we now have. Instead of blaming them, we should be thanking them.
said by panda See Profile :

And, if you think that welfare benefits are *better* than union benefits, try living on welfare.
Where did I say they were?
said by panda See Profile :

These programs of which you refer, how did you come upon the description of "very generous"?
Because they are very generous. Here's one example.

»revolution-21.blogspot.com/2007/···ony.html

said by panda See Profile :

Have you ever had to rely on them? Do you know anyone that has?
No and no. My friends are too proud to rely on government handouts.
said by panda See Profile :

I can tell you they are not that generous at all.
Of course not. I am pure evil.
said by panda See Profile :

Back in the '30's? Yes, and we are fighting to keep the working class.
Somehow I think that driving jobs outside of the USA is anathema to that goal.
said by panda See Profile :

We need to get people, like you, to see the need for organization.
I might see the need for unions when they stop contributing to the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country.
said by panda See Profile :

And, we need to organize those foreign countries!
So now you want to sell out your union brothers and sisters to the same people who took their jobs?
said by panda See Profile :

Non-union companies offer benefits *because* of the union!
Again, this is not the 1930s. Non-union employers offer these benefits today because of early union activity that modernized the workplace. Now all unions do is ruin good US employers and drive jobs out of the country.
said by panda See Profile :

Not because they are good-hearted, but because the unions negotiate a fair wage, fair benefits, and fair conditions for ALL!
said by panda See Profile :

I proffer the view that it was a corporatist political ploy as the "real reason".
History is history.
said by panda See Profile :

Not just union pensions went "bust". And you are painting much too positive a picture of the 401k as a self-managed retirement plan.
Ahh but with 401ks and private retirement investment it is always possible for investors to recoup these losses because they have control over how their funds are invested. This isn't the case with union pensions. But that's ok because that evil government you complain about that also subsidizes evil Walmart's healthcare will cover the cost.
said by panda See Profile :

How can the average worker pay into a 401k when his wages are all too quickly eaten up by living expenses?
Many manage to do this. The ones that can't are the exception, not the rule.
said by panda See Profile :

But, is is Walmart's fault! The reference was to the *added* cost of Walmart's greed.
Again, you don't explain how it is Walmart's fault that their employees choose to make use of a health plan that is more generous than the one they offer. How is Walmart's greed different than the greed of any other private company?
said by panda See Profile :

And, again, you state that the welfare state is generous. Are you currently on welfare? You wouldn't call it generous if you were.
Of course it is generous. You don't see people on welfare dying on the streets do you? Go try being poor in a poor country instead.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!
hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
Unions are great if you have seniority. Union people get paid based on Time of service, not Quality of service.

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:

I wouldn't be in a hurry to strike

if I were them.

In this economy Verizon could probably easily fill those jobs.

Or..perhaps the workers haven't been reading the news?
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!

See 16 replies to this post
ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT

sigh

Bla Bla Bla, here we go everyone anti-union as if the workers of CWA are RICH. Newsflash people ... the only RICH people are the ones fighting to destroy the union on the management side.

CWA & IBEW workers will always be middle class. Go pick on the unions for the major league sports teams.. then I'll get on your side... not for people making less than 100K a year.

See 12 replies to this post

telcolackey
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA

Benefits and Abuses

Unions do benefit and protect their members, but they have received a bad rep due to the level of protection and benefits that they have abused.

•The "requirement" for police details where they are really not needed. Salaries of 60K, but income of 130K due to details.
•Retirement plans that no non-union employee could ever get
•Bad teachers that cannot be let go and coast through their remaining years (at the expense of children).
•Requirement to join unions
•Anyone that is familiar with work in union locations that take twice as long and cost three times as much as non-union. No quality element here.

If unions addressed the internal abuse they probably would have a better rep with the general public (not sure they really care)
--
"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Benefits and Abuses

well said.
bushleaguer

join:2007-01-22
Gillette, NJ

Yup...there's good and bad to unionized labor. I'm glad they get together to protect what they have worked for, but it can also breed a sense of entitlement (see teachers) and apathy.
A few months ago I got Verizon FIOS internet and POTS. The Verizon box was pre-existing, and I wanted to run the cat-5 cable for the internet myself (I called and they said that's fine) so I had everything ready to roll.
The installer showed up a little after 8am and took 3 hours to hook up the cat-5 cable to the Verizon box on the side of my house (drill a hole, pull the cable through and plug it in), install the router (plug it in) and call for the service to be turned on.
I wanted to go to work as soon as he was done, but he would tell me he was waiting for a confirmation code or whatever and I would walk out into my garage after a half-hour and he would be talking to his friends on his cell or eating in his truck. After I told him that I wanted to get things going because I had to go to work to pay the bills and said I would call Verizon to complain about the "confirmation code" hold-up....he was finished and out in 20 minutes after that.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Lock Out Time!

Time for VZ to start announcing they'll be hiring, and a series of ads saying how great the company is and how well they treat their employees that are suppose to take a "3hour lunch according to own union employee on this site" and then lock them all out.