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story category Verizon TOS Change: Forced FiOS Upgrade?
Company reserves the right to disconnect DSL....
(old news - 05:16PM Tuesday Nov 13 2007)
tags: dsl · Fiber · business · bandwidth · telco ·
Verizon is sending out an e-mail to DSL customers telling them that there's been a change in the company's terms of service starting November 20. In particular, the updated TOS informs DSL customers that -- once their network is upgraded to FiOS -- the company reserves the right to stop serving them with DSL. From the new TOS:
At such time as Verizon is able to provision the Service utilizing fiber optic technologies, we may in our discretion terminate your DSL Service and no longer make DSL service available to your location. In cases of such termination, we will offer to you Verizon Fios Internet Service and we will disclose to you applicable rates and additional terms, if any, and such rates and terms may differ from the DSL Services provided under this Agreement.
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Fiber infrastructure is cheaper to maintain, so it makes sense to get users off the old infrastructure as soon as possible. Then again, customers who are happy with $15 DSL (some "for life") might not be happy to learn they're being forced to upgrade to costlier service and speeds they may not use.

We've fired off an inquiry to our contacts at Verizon to see if they're going to immediately apply pressure on users who stick with DSL -- or if this is just a legal CYA for dealing with upgrade laggards several years from now.

Whether Verizon fully yanks copper after a FiOS install has been discussed extensively. Verizon recently explained their position on the practice:
We only remove copper if it is in the air, but if buried, we leave the copper in place," says Verizon's Eric Rabe. "Indeed in some places (Long Island) the policy now is to leave the copper drop from a pole too. If a customer asks, we'll leave the copper in place, and if a new resident wants or needs a copper service, we'll provide it without charge."
CLECs have been concerned that Verizon would yank copper and then be uncooperative should a homeowner downgrade back to POTs (or a new homeowner wanted DSL). That's probably not an unreasonable worry for those familiar with the CLEC/ILEC installation dynamic in the earlier days of DSL.

We've seen a number of CLECs successfully reconnect customers. We've also seen customers stuck in a tug of war between CLEC and ILEC -- told that they needed to pay $3,000 to replace a removed NID to roll back to DSL service.

Related:
  1. AT&T Realizing 25Mbps Not Enough
  2. AT&T Restates That FTTH is Unnecessary
  3. Qwest CEO: Customers Will Get 'Lots of Bandwidth' in 2007
  4. Qwest Prepares Network Upgrade Announcement
  5. Verizon: Offering FiOS In AT&T Turf 'Logical'
  6. 50Mbps, 20/20Mbps FiOS Tiers Hit All Markets
  7. Sorry Qwest, 'Next Generation' Broadband Isn't 896kbps Upstream
  8. Qwest Blames Bad 2nd Quarter on Competition
Forums » Verizon TOS Change: Forced FiOS Upgrade?
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Rothan Tik
Destroyer of worlds
Premium
join:2000-11-07
Danvers, MA

Not that I would resist

but it feels like it will be a long time coming for my town anyway.
mglunt

join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA
·Verizon FIOS
·VoicePulse

Re: Not that I would resist


Hmm.

Couldn't one simply choose another DSL provider? Sounds to me that VZ is just deciding to stop offering / maintaining their DSL equipment in areas where they offer something much better.

It also would not surprise me if Verizon offers the DSL customers (or everyone in the area) a cheap fiber package - maybe 1-3Mbps.
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: Not that I would resist

said by mglunt See Profile :

Hmm.

Couldn't one simply choose another DSL provider? Sounds to me that VZ is just deciding to stop offering / maintaining their DSL equipment in areas where they offer something much better.

It also would not surprise me if Verizon offers the DSL customers (or everyone in the area) a cheap fiber package - maybe 1-3Mbps.
Another, different, part of Verizon's policy is to move everyone from copper to FIOS. The sum total is that when the copper is gone, so will be the DSL alternatives. Once the DSL alternatives are gone, there will be no reason for VZ to offer cheap fiber packages. Or so goes the monopolisitic rationale...
mglunt

join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

Re: Not that I would resist


My Copper is still there, and VZ has said over and over that if you want it left there, all you have to do is ask. If you don't have it and want it, they'll hook it back up.

This is just another anti-business news post...

knowtech

@verizon.net

Re: Not that I would resist

said by mglunt See Profile :

My Copper is still there, and VZ has said over and over that if you want it left there, all you have to do is ask. If you don't have it and want it, they'll hook it back up.

This is just another anti-business news post...

In my town (and in may others, I would imagine) there are only two providers of high-speed service. Not much competition there. As for Verizon's statements, well, I know some ex-Enron employees and investors in securities backed by subprime mortgages who might have a few wordsy about whether you bet the farm on a large corporation's promises. Unfortunately, my friend, business is in business to make money - that's why it's called business. And her's a Rule of Business: if it's not clearly stated in a binding legal contract, forget about it.

C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Davenport, FL
·Verizon Online DSL

Where have you been? most places only ever get *DSL connections from the telcos in place.

I would love to see FiOS deployed here, especially the higher tiers of service with >1mbps upload. But I'm not stupid...

rather, while I would be happy to see them deploy FiOS here, I don't want them to do a half-assed rush job to get it here. Move fast, but do it right.
fixrman

join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA
FiOS is the shit any way. For two dollars folks can upgrade to 5/2 service. So where's the problem?

Drewskinator

join:2005-04-14
Selden, NY
·Verizon Online DSL

"Bring it on!

I've been a Verizon DSL customer for a number of years. Anytime Verizon wants to "force" me to upgrade to FIOS is fine by me.

Unfortunately, my area of Long Island has seen very little FIOS deployment.

So anytime you Verizon techs are ready to do my neighborhood,
please let me know.

DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA

$15 per month for 12 months

Unless we change our minds.

-Your favorite neighborhood monopoly ILEC.

C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Davenport, FL
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: $15 per month for 12 months

said by DotMac See Profile :

Unless we change our minds.

-Your favorite only neighborhood monopoly ILEC.
Fixed.
JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA

Not new..


This may have been rewritten, but it is not new to the TOS.

Kylemaul
Lovin' My Firefox 1.5.x
Premium
join:2001-03-30
North Port, FL
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Catch 22 for Verizon?

Based on this article, I would be getting yanked off copper. No big deal for me, as I intend to upgrade to FiOS anyway. (And it'll be about the same price as my DSL!) What might be a big deal is that my house and my neighbor's are both utility retarded--meaning the utilities don't come in on the garage side of the (cement block) house. For POTS, no big deal, for FiOS, another story when it comes to power. Either Verizon needs to trench clear across my yard, or run an extra long line through the attic. A headache for them either way, I'm sure.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
·DSL EXTREME

Good... as long as forced bundle packages aren't there.

Only problem that I would have would be forced bundling (AT&T style) where you can't get Internet w/o having TV service on Uverse. Eg. If I lived in an area where I could get decent OTA or didn't even care to watch TV, I don't want to have to purchase it.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Don't think this dog will hunt...

Verizon is going to have a hard time pushing this one.

The TOS is based and geared towards the product - not the house. I am really curious how Verizon is going to be able to uphold the ability to force a customers to act is one way on a different product line based on the TOS of another.

Further, I think that they are going to have some hard, VERY HARD, regulatory hurdles to get through when people finally wake up and fight back.

Not that fiber isn't a better product, not all customers are going to want a product that isn't network powered OR where they are under protection of a regulatory body for such an important life line service.

The ONLY way that I'd be satisfied to be forced off of one technology is if the government (PUC) puts their foot down and forces the same regulation on the FiOS product as they do the copper service.

The absence of consumer protections in any city (ie: Fios/Cable Vision served areas) is NEVER good for the consumer. If FiOS is non-regulated, then who protects the consumer? The courts?

Last time I checked, the Incumbent provider was supposed to wire every home in it's service area... Verizon wants it's cake and to eat it too.

Bottom line, I don't think this TOS is going to fly...
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom

Re: Don't think this dog will hunt...

said by fiberguy See Profile :

Not that fiber isn't a better product, not all customers are going to want a product that isn't network powered OR where they are under protection of a regulatory body for such an important life line service.
What I thought everyone "needed" FTTH....
said by fiberguy See Profile :

if the government (PUC) puts their foot down and forces the same regulation on the FiOS product as they do the copper service.
Is Verizon voice via FiOS not regulated?
said by fiberguy See Profile :

Last time I checked, the Incumbent provider was supposed to wire every home in it's service area...
And they still do. I don't believe that requirement has changed.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: Don't think this dog will hunt...

It's my understanding that the Fiber product is exempt from certain regulatory rules...

danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

Re: Don't think this dog will hunt...

the fiber is not the services running on it..they are still tarrifed.....
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: Don't think this dog will hunt...

I know what fiber is.. it's the line.. I'm referring to the product and the difference of Fiber/Copper.. ok?

.. if it's tariffed, that's fine, but it's still void of certain regulation. Are they still a common carrier? Are you able to get, say, Earthlink broadband over the fiber line?

.. no.. the Fiber is not under the same rules as copper.
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET

said by fiberguy See Profile :

Verizon is going to have a hard time pushing this one.

...

Further, I think that they are going to have some hard, VERY HARD, regulatory hurdles to get through when people finally wake up and fight back.
VZ has been careful to roll out FiOS in such a way they don't piss (many) people off, including constituents and politicians. This will cause the anti-remove-copper-group to have little power. There may be a few tiny skirmishes, but they'll have less impact than the copper thieves unless the police start catching them faster somehow (some technology comes to mind).

I'm not saying that there's no use for copper. But c'mon ... the only reason copper is better than fiber right now is entirely regulatory in source, so technically the copper is far inferior, and the regulations making copper better or FiOS worse could easily be changed and/or eliminated.
(One way copper is made better by regulations is the competition it holds that fiber does not.) There's also the ability to have line power on the copper line and not have batteries for your phone, but that's about it. Maybe a few other little things.
lovewomen

join:2003-08-07
Springfield, VA

DSL $14.95 for life

I signed up for the $14.95 for life plan and FIOS is already installed in my area. Being retired I wanted a fixed fee not the higher FIOS. So I wonder what will happen to my $14.95 DSL for life plan?

Sabre
Di relung hatiku bernyanyi bidadari

join:2005-05-17

Re: DSL $14.95 for life

I recall seeing some of the fine print on the "Price for Life" deal on their commercial, and it does state that if they decide to stop offering DSL in your area, the $14.95 price takes a dirt nap.

hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
Premium
join:2005-06-29
clubs:
they could offer you the same speeds as your getting now just over FIOS.
JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: DSL $14.95 for life


That proved to be a problem to them, as they tried to work that out when this was first put into the TOS.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
·DSL EXTREME

They'll jack up the cost of voice service on POTS to make it so expensive that you'll want to leave, or, they do something similar to AT&T... sorry, that package isn't offered any more.. you're too far for DSL, but you can get our other service.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

bigunk
Gort, Klattu Birada Nikto

join:2001-02-10
Santa Clarita, CA
·AT&T Yahoo

Re: DSL $14.95 for life

I'm in AT&T territory as well, so the "upgrade" is not FTTH, but new copper to a connection point across the street from my house. What is hilarious is I have a 4 wire cable running from that point to my protector. Not 2 pair, but 4 wire. No twists. Lots of noise potential. If AT$T forces anything on me, I'll make them trench and replace that underground run for free. Oh, and if they screw up my landscaping, they'll pay for that as well. This will be great.
--
There is not a man in the country that can't make a living for himself and family. But he can't make a living for them AND his government, the way his government is living. What the government has got to do is live as cheap as the people.
- Will Rogers
aznstud87

join:2000-07-11
Corona, NY

wow!

The site is still using the FIOS Hummer picture I submitted 3 years ago. Now that is what I call longevity! haha
ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT

Re: wow!

No, thats the picture I submitted, its still parked there. .. the price of gasoline and hummers arent a good mix for this company
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Move!

Well, if you live in an area where Verizon pulls out the DSL in favor of FIOS, and you really want DSL, you can always move to another area that has DSL.

Or so you city boys are always telling rural folk when they complain about lack of broadband choices.

So stop whining.

whatevrzclvr

join:2005-11-16
Rancho Cucamonga, CA

Re: Move!

chuckles
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
You can also sign up with another ISP that way VZ can't force their DSL TOS onto you
NYDude25

join:2007-08-23
Massapequa, NY

Cheaper?

The article says that "Fiber infrastructure is cheaper to maintain", so why would the FIOS service cost more than the DSL service?
ltjordan

join:2001-12-02
Hyattsville, MD

Re: Cheaper?

Because it's newer, faster, better and the stockholders want larger profits.

elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO
higher bandwidth
also WHY would want to keep slow ass DSL when you can have fast ass fiber ?
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL
Deployment costs and the fact that the sheep are willing to pay more.

LD 50

join:2000-08-28
Milford, NH
clubs:

they sent this to me in NH, that is just cruel :(


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
clubs:

Forced FIOS?

If only we could be so lucky here in Canada... We are stuck with monopolistic telco & cable co's, throttling, capping and banning us from the internet...
--
GO LEAFS GO!

DSU
You fail at life.
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·igs.net

Re: Forced FIOS?

said by HiVolt See Profile :

If only we could be so lucky here in Canada... We are stuck with monopolistic telco & cable co's, throttling, capping and banning us from the internet...
LMAO

I'm laughing because this is ridiculously true and to actually read it out loud is so absurd.
--
Weeeeeee

ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:

said by HiVolt See Profile :

If only we could be so lucky here in Canada... We are stuck with monopolistic telco & cable co's, throttling, capping and banning us from the internet...
Probably won't be long and we will be in the same boat you are. We pretty much have the monopolistic thing right now.
--
FWD#: 223611
kintaro

join:2001-01-13
Los Angeles, CA

Copper left behind in my install

So can I complain because they left the unsightly copper cable running to my roof? They also installed the ONT on the opposite side of the house, so the on phone box is still there.

Yaco
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ

You had to know....

That this was going to happen. DSL is antiquated now with FIOS and DOCSIS 3.0 around the corner.
Lee
LeftOfSanity

join:2005-11-06
Felton, DE

Wow

Typical Veriscam.

KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS


edit:
November 13th, @11:34PM

Re: Wow

Their deal was always that if you were a Verizon DSL customer that signed up for Fios, your DSL service would be permanently disconnected.

Fortunately there are quite a few other CLEC DSL providers that will continue to provide DSL over the original copper lines,
so you can tell Verizon to kiss off if they try to force you to do anything.
--
"Lithium is no longer available on credit"

joshb
got the giggles
Premium
join:2006-03-04
·TELUS
·Shaw
·Primus Talkbroadband
·TekSavvy Solutions..

Good going

That's what you call taking a leadership roll in the industry.... An upgrade that actually helps both the customer and the company....Darn good deal
--
common sense isn't so common....

Mike
Premium,Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA
clubs:

Re: Good going

Mixed nuts.

1. It's Fiber. DSL has no chance to compete.

2. Locks out CLECs.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Good going

Also limited power for the phone; what happens if you have a bad battery or it goes dead in the event of a power outage? no phone especially if cells go dead or if you don't have one. That would really suck.

ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:

Re: Good going

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

Also limited power for the phone; what happens if you have a bad battery or it goes dead in the event of a power outage? no phone especially if cells go dead or if you don't have one. That would really suck.
Exactly. This is the one thing I have not been able to understand them being able to get around. If you read any typical state's regulations on how the phone company has to setup their CO's, battery backups, generators, etc.., you will see that they were forced to setup so that in the case of some unknown attack, either war or mother nature, the communication infrastructure could keep on running. Now, they are really being released from that liability. Yes, the CO's are still being forced to keep their CO's up and running, but what real good does it do when all the batteries in all the homes are dead and non functional.
--
FWD#: 223611
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
·Time Warner VOIP
·1and1

Re: Good going

My thing wouldnt be worrying about the power unless you don't have a cell or only one and someone else it while their gone and your power company has a bad uptime. Or you live in an area with rolling black outs. That would suck! Granted i have TWC Digital Phone with no backup but I also have a cell phone and my mom has one too. and both are always charged and if push comes to shove; find a neighbor with a landline with a regular phone LoL.

Rob A
Jets 19 - Steelers 16
Premium
join:2005-01-17
Pompton Plains, NJ

Who cares!

I'd gladly upgrade to fios from my dsl! Come on VZ, force me too!

stomp357

join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA
·Suddenlink
·AT&T Southeast

Why force them to a costlier tier upgrade?

If the DSL customers are getting $15.00 lower speed tiers, and fiber is cheaper than copper, then when Verizon upgrades those areas with fiber, the $15.00 users should still get their low speed tier for $15.00. If the DSL tier is only 768kbps, then they could still have 768k for $15.00, only it's on the fiber network, and it's cheaper for Verizon to maintain, and does not impact bandwidth usage like the higher speed tiers. Why is this a problem?
Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL

They're not meeting their sales goals...

..so they have to find a way to force the service onto customers who are reluctant to switch. The end of the 3rd Qtr Verizon had 1.3 Million FiOS Customers{they added 229,000 new customers that Qtr}. The end of 4th Qtr target is 2 million subs, and at the current pace they are set to fall 400,000+ subs short. A majority{if not all} of DSLR readers would do almost anything to have to FIOS{or FTTP} availible to their homes; however, this attitude is not reflected by the majority of the populace who still only use the internet for casual surfing/emailing.

Will be very interesting to see how this shakes out and how the State regulatory bodies handle it. The only positive I see is that Habib in Bangalore will now have to worry about his job being downsized for change--as all the FSCs are in the US--LMAO!
Forums » Verizon TOS Change: Forced FiOS Upgrade?page: 1 · 2


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