 jmcd088
join:2005-02-08
Reading, PA | Sounds good... But it will prob come to my area last because broadband hates me. | |
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starstuff
Fly By Wire
Premium
join:2001-12-05
Mcallen, TX
| Re: Sounds good... Read to the end... it reads Ready for immediate deployment, the new VDSL2 Recommendation (ITU-T G.993.2), will continue to foster competitive global markets for high-speed equipment, assuring a level playing field for developers and vendors.
I wonder if it is true. | |
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| | 
Derch
Premium
join:2004-10-16
Tulsa, OK | Re: Sounds good... Doesn't matter what the end says, everyone knows that ISP's like to drag their feet when it comes to deployment. | |
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| | | 
DaSneaky1D
one wall to block them all
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Sounds good... Not when it can potentially save them money in the end. SDSL is a great technology to replace data-only local loops. It's cheaper (Bell loop) and provides the same service.
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] :: my trivial ramblings :: [ | |
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Derch
Premium
join:2004-10-16
Tulsa, OK | Re: Sounds good... I take back a little of what I said. I bet SBC might use VDSL2 rather than deploying fiber and then VDSL to residential houses. But, in the long term, fiber is always best. | |
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| | | | |
DaSneaky1D
one wall to block them all
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Sounds good... You're right, fiber is a better solution. I was speaking more so from the standpoint of CLEC's
A twisted-pair local loop is much cheaper than a "T1" type local loop. When there is equipment that can offer much faster data rates over cheaper mediums, there is a huge cost savings.
--
] :: my trivial ramblings :: [ | |
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ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Sounds good...
What's left at 12,000 feet? |
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| | | GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| said by Derch  :Doesn't matter what the end says, everyone knows that ISP's like to drag their feet when it comes to deployment. Why do you blame ISPs? Usually the ISPs are reselling something being whoelsaled to them, and its them (wholesalers) dragging their feet. | |
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| 
Riiiggght
@verizon.n | Riiiighht! So verizon's spending billions of dollars to deploy fiber to the home wasn't necessary then.. they could have served bonded copper streams into the home! Its really too little too late for vdsl2 | |
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| |
LarryTheCableGuy
@comcast.net
| Re: Sounds good... Its really too little too late for vdsl2 It's never too late for yet another telco promise. 
Disclaimer: I'm not a real cable guy nor do I play one on TV | |
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| 
Augustus III
If Only Rome Could See Us Now....
join:2001-01-25
Gainesville, GA | 23 years and 40 days from today I shall have it. | |
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|
whooopdiedoodaa
@verizon.n | Yes, well I'm sure the ultra super duper deluxe horse and buggy carriage was a great hit in the 1940s as well!
Does too little, too late mean anything to these chipset designers?!?!?!? | |
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Gunslinger03
join:2004-07-09
Chesapeake, VA | Nice Speeds Wow. 100Mbps symmetrical over VDSL2...that is amazing. Why again is fiber being rolled out? | |
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| 
webnetwiz
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Premium
join:2004-09-22
Van Nuys, CA | Re: Nice Speeds Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't. | |
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| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Nice Speeds People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say?
I thought so.
VDSL2 is a great option for the company in the current landscape of the industry. People say "why VDSL2 if fiber can do gig speeds?" If they could do gig speeds, then why not do it now? Why wait? People, it COSTS MONEY to put these speeds through the pipes. What, do you want to over power that little thing called the backbone?
People want everything! Hey, BROADBAND IS STILL NEW! Remember? What did you ahve 5 years ago? For many, it was still dial up! Let's get real.
Ask yourself this.. if you had the ability to run SBC or Charter, or Verizon even, would you do a large fiber deployment now? If it were me? NO! I would find th cheapest way to deploy the fastest speeds possible in the least amount of time. There is no real way to see into the bb future. Billions people! Billions of dollars to lay fiber. Everyone runs it, now what? Now every company has debt. To pay that debt off, they need paying customers; customers who will pay the price for a fiber line. From what I can tell in these forums, not many here would be willing to pay the REAL price of providing brandband services.
Ever wonder why there is a bundled price for bb service? It's because multiple product hits help subsidize the cost of actually deploying the service. Also, a company has to keep a customer an average of 18 months JUST TO BREAK EVEN!
You guys are asking too much for fiber right now. It's just too much too soon. In time, people will see fiber, but I don't think you will see it as a norm pipeline widespread for at least 25 years or so.
Now, you say fiber can do gig speeds and copper pair won't.. says you? We never thought that copper pair would do more than 28.8... even 56k.. when DSL rolled out, we thought that 1.5 and 15,000 feet would be the limit of that technolody. Proved many people wrong eh?
Anyone here that says "can't" or "won't" is a fool themselves. You don't know what technology could bring.
In all honesty, I think many people here live in a dream world and not reality.
One question to aks you all.. if 100mb came out, what are you willing to pay for it? and what would you expect for that money? My guess is that most people would hope that it was $20 a month and had an uptime of 99.9% (which far exceeds even business class service) | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
1 edit | Re: Nice Speeds You make good points, but they're not related to the thread you're replying to.
The question wasn't "Why VDSL2 when we can have fiber?", the question was "Why fiber when we can have VDSL2?" | |
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| | | 
vagabond
Truckin' Geek
join:2004-03-08
clubs:
| said by fiberguy :People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say? I thought so. SO TRUE, people bitch about paying $26.99 for 256/256 DSL. LOL
Anyways I wonder if Qwest will look into this, they have regular VDSL in parts of Omaha, Phoenix and Denver. It would probably cost alot to change all the existing USAMS though. The reason that VDSL has not expanded at all in Qwest's territory is because it's not profitable enough.
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qwesttalk dot com | |
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| | | Trollhawk
join:2005-05-28
3 edits | I think you made the best point so far, fiberguy. It says right in the top paragraph, "...and will be appealing for companies looking for less expensive alternatives to running fiber straight to the home."
It's all about the money, people. Regardless of what technology is superior, it's all about ROI(return on investment), and each company will do what it believes will be most profitable within their own time frames.
I'm not bashing fiber, but would you rather wait 7+ years on 6Mbps broadband to get a 100Mbps fiber connection, or would you rather have 25Mbps xDSL within 2-3 years, and upgrade that to fiber in another 5+ years? And yes, I know Verizon is already deploying fiber, but how long will it take them reach 18 million households? That's the estimate another telco is saying they'll be able to reach with xDSL by 2007.
Let's not forget that xDSL is a technology, not a physical carrier like copper or fiber. Telcos don't have to run a new transmission medium to your house to enable xDSL. Only the endpoint equipment needs updating, perhaps even just a firmware update in some cases. That makes it much easier to bump up speeds until fiber can be run all the way to the prem.
Regarding T1's etc., VDSL will even replace those where it makes economical sense. Just like Tx's, VDSL can be run on multiple pairs. For those who only think in terms of price, speed is not the only determinant. Tx's cost more for their quality of service, ie- less downtime, quicker time to fix. VDSL will also be priced accordingly- more for Tx replacements, less for consumer VDSL.
Lastly, telcos employing VDSL are not doing it in lieu of running fiber. They are actually doing it while concurrently running fiber. For example, SBC's project lightspeed is an initiative to get fiber run to within ~5kft of each home, so that they can offer more people faster xDSL, in less time than it would take to run fiber to same amount of homes. The next logical step(assuming we don't all go wireless) would be to replace the "last mile" copper to the home with fiber.
So to sum up, I don't think VDSL is an alternative to fiber in the long run, but it is a very good "next step" before fiber reaches the majority of households. | |
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| | | Rethink
join:2005-06-16
UK | I know a technology already that will give 1 Gig on a twised pair, so you're right already. | |
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| | 
quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
| said by webnetwiz :Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't. This technology requires at least two pairs -- depending on the distance from the CO. This would at least double the number of wires required to run DSL to the modem. | |
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| | 
maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by webnetwiz :Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't. Not only that. A single fibre optic cable will be able to deliver 200 HDTV channels, 4 phone lines for the house, 1 Gbps Internet, Dedicated "small-band" connections to your alarm company and other services.... all through one cable.
Fiber technology also allows for much easier splitting of services on said cable, where your cable company leases part of it for TV and your ISP uses another part of it for broadband, if you choose to use different companies.
I don't foresee that possibility with copper wires. At leaast, it will be limited a lot more then fiberoptics.
--
And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am. | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
| 100mbps will be used up rather quickly when you want to stream multipe HD channels into your home, use VoIP telephony, and when your kitchen appliances are all IP-aware.
Fiber with DWDM, on the other hand, can eventually be upped to hundreds of gigabits or even terrabits per second without replacing the fiber. | |
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| |
webnetwiz
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Premium
join:2004-09-22
Van Nuys, CA
| Re: Nice Speeds You nailed it my friend! A company like Verizon can't think about rolling out VDSL2 and enjoy the technology for 5 years and then find that it no longer meets the demands. If you're a huge telecom company, you have to think ahead and be pro-active rather than re-active! Verizon is going to deploy fiber and be done with infrastructure for the next decade at least, and not worry about providing any type of HSI or IPTV or whatever, they're DONE! While SBC and Bellsouth will cringe along with ADSL2+, then maybe VDSL2, and keep spending money on aging copper and upgrades to DSLAMs that aggregate your copper pairs to a fiber link to their backbones. Fiber to the home was a right solution. Yes, it's more money spent now, but it's the return on your money not having to upgrade every few years. Someone at Verizon was thinking about the future, and not just looking good to the Wall Street or shareholders. The fact that they're rolling out FTTH in rich neighborhoods that can afford it, that's a whole different topic. | |
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| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | '100mbps will be used up rather quickly when you want to stream multipe HD channels into your home, use VoIP telephony, and when your kitchen appliances are all IP-aware.'
Then provision another twisted pair. Voila. | |
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| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Nice Speeds What happens when those pair demands are so big that they have to run another copper cable down the road to keep up with demand ? Ahh yeah run another copper cable.
Nahh run fiber now upgrade the equipment at both ends and be done with it for awhile.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | Nik1108
VIP
join:2002-01-16
Nampa, ID | Re: Nice Speeds Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber. | |
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| | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Nice Speeds said by Nik1108 :Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber. Nope , Next
Copper and fiber don't need to be trenched fios is lashing their fiber to copper that is in place at the moment and/or running it the same as copper.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand. | |
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| | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Nice Speeds said by bogey780 :At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand. how so ? what if demand for 200 mbit becomes the norm ? 8 pairs to the home now ? at what point does the cabling become to cumbersome and stiff ? How many strands can you fit in one of the pole taps ? You gonna fit 800 strands for 100 people ? or What happens if they need gig e speeds ? 4000 strands for the single 100 person block ? At what point does it get to the saturation point.
Fiber has none of those issues.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| Re: Nice Speeds ...and what if they need terrabit speed? With current usage VDSL2 could handle anything people need.
You are arguing as if VDSL is the end technology. It's not. Not SBC, BellSouth or any Telco is arguing it is. They're arguing that it's the best way to get people the speeds they want and need quickly and without bancrupting the company. | |
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| | | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Nice Speeds Honestly look at the telco's and tell me that is what they are trying to do !
They are trying to hang on to an out dated system. They need to get on the bandwagon like VZ and use their collective power to lower costs on equipment. Why rebuild 4 times to get what could be done today ?
Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even. If half sign up then 24 months. BFD the system will be in place for at least 10 years maybe more seeing as there is no known transport as fast as fiber at the moment and much of the work being done is to make fiber faster.
We have hit a technology saturation point and until some one discovers a major break threw in quantum physics there won't be much more to do. Bear in mind that copper has lasted over 100 years. If Fiber makes it 30 years they will see the same profits as copper did over that 100 years.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | | | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| Re: Nice Speeds 'Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even.'
That's not even close to being accurate. VZ started something that'll take almost a decade to be completed and several more years before profit is seen.
Ask yourself what is accomplished by hanging onto copper if as you believe fiber is faster and cheaper? | |
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| | | | | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Nice Speeds Your talking a nation wide scale I am talking area wide. As each area become profitable the money made there is used in another area. They are not stupid that is why verizon is rolling out the fiber.
Copper is dieing technology for telecom. As we become more wired to our world we need bigger and faster pipes. Nothing is accomplished by saving copper except pinching more pennies.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
1 edit | said by bogey780 :Then provision another twisted pair. Voila. How is this a better alternative to fiber? Eventually you're going to run out of pairs and need to trench new cable anyway. What about the higher maintenance costs of aging copper v. fiber? Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is the best option. | |
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webnetwiz
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Premium
join:2004-09-22
Van Nuys, CA
| Re: Nice Speeds Again, someone thinks reactively rather than proactively. There are so many issues with copper in the buildings, like interference, signal attenuation, etc... The only issue swith fiber is that it has to be installed delicately, that's it. Once you've installed it, tested it, you're done! There's no need for filters, POTS splitters and extra lines to spearate the signal. Fiber is just cleaner. | |
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| | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Nice Speeds "There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"
So you are running fiber to the phones too?
VDSL2 is a complement to fiber, and eventually that part of the local "loop" can even be replaced with fiber without starting over. This technology leverages existing infrastructure to deliver the goods now, not 25 years from now.
Verizon went straight to fiber mostly because they had to. Their outside copper plant is quickly dissolving from decades of mismanagement and deferred maintenance.
Try again. | |
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| | | |
maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Nice Speeds said by RadioDoc :"There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"So you are running fiber to the phones too? As a matter of fact yes  FIOS includes your phoneline, and the bad part of it is actually that they completely remove your copper so you can't go back to copper if you wanted to.
--
And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am. | |
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| | | | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: Nice Speeds No, I meant direct to the physical phone itself. But whatever. | |
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| 
EnasYorl
Thieves World
join:2001-12-02
West
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Gunslinger03 :Wow. 100Mbps symmetrical over VDSL2...that is amazing. Why again is fiber being rolled out? BECAUSE, you can do a entire Video Lineup over FIBER today!
Verizon is going after CATV's video customers. Hight Speed Data is a bonus. | |
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| |
DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | sanity has arrived Finally a workable product. The length requirements are killing the bells, and at least this is a step in the right direction..
--
Liberalism weakening The USA everyday... | |
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alfnoid
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-18 | over multiple copper pairs "over multiple copper pairs"
this means there will be at least half the lines out there available now
peace | |
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| DONKEYKONG01
join:2003-03-21
Metairie, LA | Re: over multiple copper pairs Do they mean 4 copper wires instead of the 2 wires currently being used? Interesting, that would indeed boost downstream, upstream, and increase distance greatly. | |
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starstuff
Fly By Wire
Premium
join:2001-12-05
Mcallen, TX | I'm thinking about this too, how many are 'multiple pairs', two, three, four? How fast with only one pair? | |
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| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA | Where in the two links above did it say multiple? I went there and did a keyword search in the announcements and could not find the word 'multiple'. | |
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| 
Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| said by alfnoid :"over multiple copper pairs" this means there will be at least half the lines out there available now peace At the rate the Bells are losing POTS customers, I don't think it will be a major issue.... | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Bellsouth I'm really curious to see if BellSouth wises up and heads the VDSL2 direction, or if they're going to stick to their FTTN, then ADSL2+ to the home plans, doling out a paltry...what was it....4-8Mbps at first? | |
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| 
andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | Re: Bellsouth If i remember right VDSL2 and ADSL2+ are very similar and require little change to switch.I could be wrong thou its been awhile since i read up on it | |
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| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| Its takes than a line card to re-consider one's original direction. FTTN should continue since it means shoter-than-12000 loop lengths. This just means a potential for higher success if they were to switch to VDSL2.
Still, there is the cost issue. Is the VDSL2 hardware on the same price-plane as ADSL2+? Will it require a different chassis, network-side aggregate beyond Gigabit Ethernet? Probably yes, and yes.
This could be the telco answer to Fios and bonded coax. | |
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informer4523
@wi.us | bellsouth and vdsl bellsouth is starting vsdl in october..the highest tier now will be 9mb/3mb | |
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| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA | Re: bellsouth and vdsl And where is this published? And why are you mentioning VDSL when the tpoic is VDSL2? | |
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ugh 21
@comcast.net | Is everyone missing this? Up to 12,000 feet. Whoop-de-do. Plain vanilla DSL can make it farther than that. So what? A future standard that even fewer people will qualify for than today's standard. | |
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|
See 6 replies to this post |
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AboutBell1
AboutBell
Premium
join:2004-12-13
| It's not quite so simple FTTH is quite expensive but taking care of it now is not necessarily better and cheaper than waiting. FTTH costs will come down over time. As end users, of course we all want FTTH NOW! On paper over at the telecom company it's not quite so black and white. Depends on the competition in certain areas too. | |
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| severach
join:2002-09-12
Jackson, MI | Re: It's not quite so simple If they can get 100Mbit to 12,000 feet, can they extend the 10Mbit a bit farther than 18,000 feet? | |
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ugh 21
@comcast.net | No 12,000 feet from the node is still to limiting. | |
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woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | hmmmmm........... It's all hype.....bait and switch or teasing us.......If you can't even get dsl right, why move on? Just do it then talk about it......
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BlooMe | |
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knifermcstab
join:2004-03-29
Cleveland, OH | All that bandwith what would we use all that bandwith on these days? bit torrent? | |
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static1117
join:2004-03-03
Clovis, CA
| Why wait? Hey all-
I think that while fibre is more future proof and will be laid everywhere eventually, going to vdsl2 for now might be more fiscally viable. IF they can get dsl2 to last them another 5 years, it might be cheaper to lay fibre down at that time. Just a thought. Im not sure how much it will cost them to do vdsl2 over fibre.
I would personally like to see fiber, but will be happy with 100mbps (much better than the 6 i have now.) | |
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| DONKEYKONG01
join:2003-03-21
Metairie, LA
| Re: Why wait? said by static1117 :Hey all- I think that while fibre is more future proof and will be laid everywhere eventually, going to vdsl2 for now might be more fiscally viable. IF they can get dsl2 to last them another 5 years, it might be cheaper to lay fibre down at that time. Just a thought. Im not sure how much it will cost them to do vdsl2 over fibre. I would personally like to see fiber, but will be happy with 100mbps (much better than the 6 i have now.) My friend, future proof is uncapped dsl and cable
What more could you want?
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| | 
d_man60112
join:2004-06-09
Cortland, IL
| Re: Why wait? I concede your point about VDSL is financially viable and the TELCO can hit more people now. This is a short term view that is rampant in US business. if you spend 10 per home now instead of 100, you can get more people. BUT, if you spend 100 now you will not have to spend 10 now and another 120 in tomorrows dollars to keep up. Not to mention that if you spend 10 now, it will cost you 2 each year for upkeep and maintenance. when you spend 100 now, it is only 1.5 for upkeep and maintenance.
Whomever owns the fiber now, will be an AT&T (1900-1980) like company for the next 80 years. | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN | In related news... ...suddenly everyone and their brother have "moved" to exactly 12,001 feet from the CO. | |
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| lewinstl
Premium
join:2005-04-12
Saint Louis, MO | Re: In related news... I'm 12,198 ft from the CO. Should I or  ? | |
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rollinraver
join:2002-04-27
Buffalo, NY | pairs? "...over multiple pairs...".... anyone know how many "multiple" might really be? | |
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DrData
Premium
join:2004-12-31
Apopka, FL
·Embarq
| I still dont see the point of new technology. I still don’t see the point of new technology when the old is not even utilized to even a quarter of what it is capable of when it comes to internet speeds, and what "could" be utilized and sold to customers with the current and even past technology.
Technology is not the hurdle. The ISP’s simply don’t want to give higher speeds. It’s no that it is not possible with the current technology. | |
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VDSL2 Ratified
