dslreports logo
 story category
Use Existing Coax For Your Home Network
D-Link brings MOCA connectivity to the masses...

Running fiber, VDSL, or cable to your house is one thing, but providers are faced with new suite of problems when it comes to cheaply wiring your home for the triple-play. Verizon recently decided to use 270 Mbps capable equipment from the Multimedia Over Coax alliance (MOCA) for Fios installs. The move allowed them to use existing Coax for home-networking, avoid more expensive Cat-5, and drive-down the cost per home of Fios deployment.

Click for full size
Now D-Link is capitalizing on the cost-savings of MOCA by offering their new Coax Ethernet Adapter Kit (DXN-221). The $199 kit, which will go on sale during the third quarter of this year, comes with two adapters (additional adapters are $109.99). The adapters come with both coaxial F-type connectors and an Ethernet port.

If I recall correctly, AT&T was also originally using MOCA for U-Verse IPTV installs, but shifted to Home Phoneline Networking Alliance (HPNA) technology. HPNA allows for the use of either coax or traditional copper phone lines for home-networking, and HPNA version 3 will be integrated into the Motorola set-tops being used for U-Verse.

MOCA and HPNA are two of the four Ethernet-alternative options being used to distribute content around the home. The others are 802.11n, the Wi-Fi standard that remains un-finalized, and Homeplug AV, a technology that offers 200Mbps connectivity via home electrical wiring. Discussion of these solutions has heated up thanks to the bandwidth demands imposed by offering the triple play - particularly HD content.
view:
topics flat nest 

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

1 edit

wifi4milez

Member

Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

Let's say the customer wanted to keep cable for their TV, but opted for FIOS internet only. Given that (I assume) both signals would be traveling over the same wiring, would their be a conflict?

EDIT: I see this is for consumer hardware within the house, but my question still remains. Will having different traffic/protocols using the same infrastructure be an issue?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

No conflict with traditional TV according to the press release:
quote:
The device operates in the 800-1500MHz range, so there is no interference with other products such as cable TV transmissions.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

Click for full size
Cool.
I've already got the Powerline HDX101.
MOCA is good in that it should have low signal loss/interference (vs. powerline)
Powerline is good in that you have any outlet in the house (many!).
I've got a lot better range/stability on ethernet over powerline than I did on WiFi (esp for SSH/X11 sessions), and typically obtain ~50Mbps throughput. Downside is that they should have used gigabit ports vs. 100Mbps ports.

Lumberjack
Premium Member
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

1 recommendation

Lumberjack

Premium Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

OMG BPL in your house.... how dare you emit signal that interferes with those damned ham'ers!!!!

BBR will shun you now!

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

Somehow, I don't think this is considered BPL.
Usage is limited to about 1 house. HAMs would have to be pointing a yagi at my house to pick anything up.. and I suspect they'd get interference from other devices (like my PC) first.
russotto
join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

russotto to Karl Bode

Member

to Karl Bode
800-900 Mhz is used by many cable companies, up to 1Ghz is used by some, and the higher frequencies are often used by satellite.

Further, if you don't have satellite, most of your splitters are probably good only up to 900Mhz.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

djrobx to Karl Bode

Premium Member

to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

No conflict with traditional TV according to the press release:
quote:
The device operates in the 800-1500MHz range, so there is no interference with other products such as cable TV transmissions.
Terrific, except cable is going to 1ghz. I know TWC is heavily deploying new 1ghz gear in many areas, and there are reports of similar activity from Cox.

-- Rob
zed2608
Premium Member
join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

zed2608

Premium Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

in some markets cable uses the full spectrum of the coax

burner50
Proud Union THUG
Premium Member
join:2002-06-05
Iowa

burner50 to Karl Bode

Premium Member

to Karl Bode
there are a few cable systems around that run up to 1000Mhz...

Oh yeah... traditional systems... I wonder how verizon will put up with junk rg-59 from the 1980's or nicks in the cable that wreak havoc on high frequencies...
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4 to wifi4milez

Member

to wifi4milez
I'm not sure. I know I had FiOS internet only over coax for awhile, but I think the installer may have separated the internet coax from the rest of the network (simple due to the way our home wiring was set up).

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to wifi4milez

Premium Member

to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez:

Let's say the customer wanted to keep cable for their TV, but opted for FIOS internet only. Given that (I assume) both signals would be traveling over the same wiring, would their be a conflict?

EDIT: I see this is for consumer hardware within the house, but my question still remains. Will having different traffic/protocols using the same infrastructure be an issue?

A lot of answers to technical questions can be found starting here:
»www.mocalliance.org/en/a ··· q.asp#17

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium Member
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA

BSD24 to wifi4milez

Premium Member

to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez:

Let's say the customer wanted to keep cable for their TV, but opted for FIOS internet only. Given that (I assume) both signals would be traveling over the same wiring, would their be a conflict?

EDIT: I see this is for consumer hardware within the house, but my question still remains. Will having different traffic/protocols using the same infrastructure be an issue?

Karl - No, as long as Fios was installed with its own dedicated line. It should be dedicated specifically for this reason, but if a tech made the mistake of connecting the Fios line to the splitter that services your cabletv service it is quite possible that it would cause issues either with the internet or the cable or maybe even both.

mysteryfiostech
@verizon.net

mysteryfiostech

Anon

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

said by BSD24:

said by wifi4milez:

Let's say the customer wanted to keep cable for their TV, but opted for FIOS internet only. Given that (I assume) both signals would be traveling over the same wiring, would their be a conflict?

EDIT: I see this is for consumer hardware within the house, but my question still remains. Will having different traffic/protocols using the same infrastructure be an issue?

Karl - No, as long as Fios was installed with its own dedicated line. It should be dedicated specifically for this reason, but if a tech made the mistake of connecting the Fios line to the splitter that services your cabletv service it is quite possible that it would cause issues either with the internet or the cable or maybe even both.
not true. verizon uses a catv/moca combiner called a moca nid to combine the cable co catv rf and the verizon moca onto the same coax network. a regular catv splitter can be used.

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium Member
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA

BSD24

Premium Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

said by mysteryfiostech :

said by BSD24:

said by wifi4milez:

Let's say the customer wanted to keep cable for their TV, but opted for FIOS internet only. Given that (I assume) both signals would be traveling over the same wiring, would their be a conflict?

EDIT: I see this is for consumer hardware within the house, but my question still remains. Will having different traffic/protocols using the same infrastructure be an issue?

Karl - No, as long as Fios was installed with its own dedicated line. It should be dedicated specifically for this reason, but if a tech made the mistake of connecting the Fios line to the splitter that services your cabletv service it is quite possible that it would cause issues either with the internet or the cable or maybe even both.
not true. verizon uses a catv/moca combiner called a moca nid to combine the cable co catv rf and the verizon moca onto the same coax network. a regular catv splitter can be used.
mysteryfiostech - I know they use MOCA... But if you have CATV from Comcast (for example) and Fios for internet, then using common sense the lines shouldn't be combined. They should run seperatly. If you combined them that could cause problems possibly.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

said by BSD24:

mysteryfiostech - I know they use MOCA... But if you have CATV from Comcast (for example) and Fios for internet, then using common sense the lines shouldn't be combined. They should run seperatly. If you combined them that could cause problems possibly.
Thats exactly my question. If this type of product is being deployed by Verizon for FIOS installs, what happens to the people who mix and match services (FIOS for internet, TWC for TV, etc.)? Furthermore, what happens if you are a "mix and match" customer, and THEN you go out and buy this product?? Would you introduce triple interference into the coax?

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium Member
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA

BSD24

Premium Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

wifi - the technicians (for both companies) should keep everything seperate.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

said by BSD24:

wifi - the technicians (for both companies) should keep everything seperate.
"Should" is the operative word, but how would that work out in practice? Would the techs need to test the coax before install, and then make sure to use a different band then is currently being used (is that even possible??)? Furthermore, if you are installing this DLink gear yourself you likely wont be able to prevent (or detect) any interference. I think the idea of having 3 (or more) different services running over one piece of coax is a recipe for disaster!

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium Member
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA

1 edit

BSD24

Premium Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

Well it depends on what you already have and what your using, basicly how your setup is. If you already have an existing line in the room, but you also have a TV for cable inthere, then Fios will run a seperate line up to the room (assuming they use coax for it instead of Cat5e(network cable)). For your internet.

If you have an existing outlet but not using it for cable tv, and its hooked up to cable. Fios will most likely disconnect that cable from the cable service (splitter) that comes into your house and connect it to their Fios system.

If you have 2 coax outlets existing, and one is in use and the other one is not but both are connected to cable tv service. Then Fios will most likely disconnect the cable line your not using and hook it up to their Fios system.

Just wanted to kind of give you some examples. This is why it really depends on what is already setup in your house. Also depending on what the techs find, if a line even if not in use is not good quality for the service for one reason or another may opt to run a new line anyways. But Fios service lines shouldn't connect into the Cable service lines. Both use a "Closed" cable system to prevent signal loss (egress or ingress) or foreign-signal interference.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Re: Would this conflict with an active cable signal?

said by BSD24:

Well it depends on what you already have and what your using, basicly how your setup is. If you already have an existing line in the room, but you also have a TV for cable inthere, then Fios will run a seperate line up to the room (assuming they use coax for it instead of Cat5e(network cable)). For your internet.

If you have an existing outlet but not using it for cable tv, and its hooked up to cable. Fios will most likely disconnect that cable from the cable service (splitter) that comes into your house and connect it to their Fios system.

If you have 2 coax outlets existing, and one is in use and the other one is not but both are connected to cable tv service. Then Fios will most likely disconnect the cable line your not using and hook it up to their Fios system.

Just wanted to kind of give you some examples. This is why it really depends on what is already setup in your house. Also depending on what the techs find, if a line even if not in use is not good quality for the service for one reason or another may opt to run a new line anyways. But Fios service lines shouldn't connect into the Cable service lines. Both use a "Closed" cable system to prevent signal loss (egress or ingress) or foreign-signal interference.
That makes sense, but what happens if I (the end user) decide to purchase the DLink MOCA equipment mentioned in this article? I would then be introducing additional interference and have no way of testing/troubleshooting it.

mysteryfiostech
@verizon.net

mysteryfiostech to BSD24

Anon

to BSD24
verizon uses what's called a moca nid that combines the moca signal onto the existing coax network. its done all the time. at the outlet, a standard splitter can be used to service both a tv and a vz router.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters for less and you are not tied to where the cable is in the house.

Also is it hub based so if you have 3-4+ systems on it they all slow down?

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios

Member

Re: At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

OR you can send 1/2 that and 4-5 hours and wire your home for CAT5 your self
i did it and it was dirt cheap even counting the cost of the router

shoe1
join:2007-09-28
Colfax, CA

shoe1

Member

Re: At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

why not CAT6? It's pretty much the same price, at least at monoprice.com, and 10x faster(more future proof).

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios

Member

Re: At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

CAT5e is just as good and i couldnt get CAT6 locally

shoe1
join:2007-09-28
Colfax, CA

shoe1

Member

Re: At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

oh, gotcha. You didn't say CAT5e you said CAT5 in the original post.

purr le meow
@videotron.net

purr le meow to Joe12345678

Anon

to Joe12345678
If the cable company offers networking solutions to their customers for a fee, then lending them the adapter instead of rewiring their homes would be cheaper, as you must remember that cabling that is installed into a home is generally not recuperated by the cableco should a customer leave, so you're basicly giving away cabling, but an adapter you lend to the customer IS taken back, and can be reused for the next customer. Viewed from that perspective, it does become economically viable.

A high percentage of customers wouldn't know how to connect an ethernet cable to their modem, much less setup their own routers with wireless capability.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

Re: At that price you can get wifi or home power plug adapters..

said by purr le meow :

If the cable company offers networking solutions to their customers for a fee, then lending them the adapter instead of rewiring their homes would be cheaper, as you must remember that cabling that is installed into a home is generally not recuperated by the cableco should a customer leave, so you're basicly giving away cabling, but an adapter you lend to the customer IS taken back, and can be reused for the next customer. Viewed from that perspective, it does become economically viable.

A high percentage of customers wouldn't know how to connect an ethernet cable to their modem, much less setup their own routers with wireless capability.
How many customers are willing to pay $5+ per tv and per pc month?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Q&A on MOCA and how it works

»www.mocalliance.org/en/a ··· /faq.asp

And here are all the MOCA certified products out there for sale:
»www.mocalliance.org/en/i ··· ucts.asp

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Just Use The Real Thing

Cat-5e or Cat-6 cable really isn't that expensive anymore. Monoprice sells it for $93 for 1000 feet. Even though copper prices have gone up, this particular cable is not as expensive as it used to be.

»www.monoprice.com/produc ··· id=10234

You can also get Leviton Quickport Ethernet Jacks for about $5 a pop, and the brackets and wall plates for even cheaper. I've gone through plenty of these as I wired up my house as well as my mom's house for Ethernet connectivity.

The benefit here is that you can get full 1Gbps connectivity within your home and save any existing cable jacks for actual TV signals. Furthermore, as someone who was crazy enough to run RG-6 coax to every room and component cable to a couple of rooms, I can tell anyone who wants to do this that running ethernet cable is much easier than running any form of coax.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios

Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

yea thats the stuff we used
hell we even got some coax ports and used the clip in face plates and ran coax to every room and it was still less then buying good high end home powerline network stuff

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

I'd have run fiber if i could have afforded it at the time

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

ArgMeMatey

Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

said by pnh102:

I'd have run fiber if i could have afforded it at the time
Let me throw in a plug here for all the smurf tube manufacturers. My house is full of it for whatever is needed, where ever it is needed. Future fiber is no problem, or as I have said before you can use it for an old-style ship intercom if you want.

Of course, everything will probably be wireless before I need to upgrade from the Cat 4 (What I had laying around) and RG-6 that I have inside the ENT right now.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

said by ArgMeMatey:

Let me throw in a plug here for all the smurf tube manufacturers. My house is full of it for whatever is needed, where ever it is needed.
I keep kicking myself for not running that... but I always figure that's nothing a Dremel, a handsaw, some spackle and paint cannot fix.

ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI

ArgMeMatey to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
I suspect the point about cheapness is regarding existing installations where there would be a labor cost to install new Cat 5 rather than use in-place RG-6.

That is, it's generally cheaper for them to use whatever is already there.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

said by ArgMeMatey:

That is, it's generally cheaper for them to use whatever is already there.
I suppose... in my situation there was neither... I ended up running coax and ethernet jacks to every room, and this was in existing construction.
cmaenginsb1
Premium Member
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

cmaenginsb1

Premium Member

Re: Just Use The Real Thing

said by pnh102:

said by ArgMeMatey:

That is, it's generally cheaper for them to use whatever is already there.
I suppose... in my situation there was neither... I ended up running coax and ethernet jacks to every room, and this was in existing construction.
Not everyone shares your situation. For example slab poured house and very limited attic access means you would have to open the walls to pull cable. This would require drywall and painting making it cost more than the coax or powerline devices.

Also in terms of the telco, it's cheaper and less liability for a tech to just install a device then spend time pulling cable.
dangarion
join:2003-05-26
Santa Ana, CA

dangarion

Member

What?

Um they really seem to be assuming a lot. There are cable companies that use frequencies above 800 MGhZ. After reading the FAQ, I don't see any specifics on if it will interfere with CATV or not. And I don't see specifics on the frequencies in use.

Weird.

koolkid1563
MVM
join:2005-11-06
Powell, WY
MikroTik CCR1036-8G-2S+
MikroTik hAP AC

1 edit

koolkid1563

MVM

U-verse

U-verse never used MoCA IIRC. The original 3700 RG had MoCA, but they didn't use it since the STBs had HPNAv3 onboard. They used an HPNAv3 host adapter/bridge at the RG which just plugged into a normal RJ-45 port on the RG and plugged into the coax network. Now the 3800 RG (which has been in use since late '06) has HPNAv3 onboard as well, so no bridge needed. They can use the same bridges to go the other way though, get a PC on the network without wireless where there is only a coax outlet, or a phone outlet using either a balun to go from tp to coax or by using a different type of bridge.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada

1 recommendation

TheMG

Premium Member

This is nice and all but...

For the price of the adapters, might as well buy some CAT5e and wire your home with that, if you install it yourself it'll be way cheaper than buying a whole bunch of MOCA adapters.
MER_MAN
join:2007-10-31
South Weymouth, MA

1 recommendation

MER_MAN

Member

Re: This is nice and all but...

Anyone who knows anything about coax is attenuation. Attenuation is going to be greater at 800Mhz opposed to 55Mhz.

Also, the quality of the internal wiring of the house(Radio Shack, RG59 etc..) will compromise the quality I would imagine. Especially how every homeowner hacks their cable system in their house with multiple splits, screw-on fittings...I do not see this as being a good alternative. I would rather run Cat5, or use a wireless range extender if I had to.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: This is nice and all but...

said by MER_MAN:

Also, the quality of the internal wiring of the house(Radio Shack, RG59 etc..) will compromise the quality I would imagine. Especially how every homeowner hacks their cable system in their house with multiple splits, screw-on fittings...
That was a huge problem for me. The previous owner of my house had satellite service, and I found out the irritating way that satellite signal splitters, which seem to be hidden all throughout this house, do a pretty good job of killing the cable TV signal. I ended up running RG-6 coax to every room from a single point.

Lucky for me, my sister was moving out of her old apartment at the time and she had a whole spool of Comcast-issue RG-6 that worked nicely (it must have been at least 100 feet or so). I also had stockpiled a lot of RG-6 from previous residences, so I only needed to buy a couple of 50 foot spools of the stuff to finish off my work.

But you're totally right about the crappy RG-59 cable... it is useless for most things these days, and I have a ton of it strung through the walls here.

tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium Member
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA

tim_k

Premium Member

not so sure

Verizon recently decided to use 270 Mbps capable equipment from the Multimedia Over Coax alliance (MOCA) for Fios installs. The move allowed them to use existing Coax for home-networking, avoid more expensive Cat-5, and drive-down the cost per home of Fios deployment.
I believe VZ is going with this mostly to shorten the time to install the triple play. The cost of cat-5 is nothing compared to the time involved in installing it.

HardwareGeek
join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY

HardwareGeek

Member

Re: not so sure

I spoke with D-Link and when I asked them if it will interfere with any thing this is what they said.

Any interference will be none at all or negligible to notice.

Also for people in apartment buildings.
Yes, the product offers a utility that encrypts the data to prevent signal jumping.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Very Slick

I've been looking for something faster than HomePlug and this looks like it might fit the bill.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Coax vs. Cat5e- distance

I believe you can go greater distances with COAX than cat5e can't you? it's just the bandwidth isn't quite as high.

••••

nanook
MVM
join:2007-12-02

nanook

MVM

Yawn... Didn't Datapoint already do this 30-odd years ago...

...with ARCnet?

Ahpuch
@verizon.net

Ahpuch

Anon

Cat-5e

So if you have both the coax rg-6 and cat-5e run everywhere( i do) you can do the FIOS over the cat5 instead of going thru their actionec router that outputs thru coax for the TV signal? I would like to remove the actiontec as it only goes to 100 mbps whereas my D-link gamer lounge router goes gigabit. I'd rather just use the D-link and not the actiontec.

keyboards
join:2001-02-14
Doylestown, PA

keyboards

Member

Re: Cat-5e

said by Ahpuch :

So if you have both the coax rg-6 and cat-5e run everywhere( i do) you can do the FIOS over the cat5 instead of going thru their actionec router that outputs thru coax for the TV signal?
The answer is no. The STBs from Moto that VZ's using don't support CAT5 input (even though there is one). Without the AT router as a MoCA bridge, you get no widgets, VOD or guide.

Ahpuch
@verizon.net

Ahpuch

Anon

Re: Cat-5e

Thanks, it would've been nice to use it that way. Who needs that slow guide anyway?

ruraltn
join:2008-05-16

ruraltn

Member

If it has F Connectors....

I don't want anything to do with it.
GMFTECH
Premium Member
join:2007-08-24
Wesley Chapel, FL

GMFTECH

Premium Member

FIOS / MOCA OPERATION

I moved into my house 2 years ago. It already had Fios. I love it. I tried the Home Media deal and couldn't get it to work consistently or without hiccups. Not only that but the widgets were "herky jerky" at best. After some research on this website I found that the MoCA worked a frequencies greater than 1 GHz. I noted that I had a 1 GHz splitter on the side of the house near the Nid box. I stopped a Fios installer in the neighborhood one day and asked if he had a splitter I could get from him. I am thinking that the MoCa thing might be new and that the new installs would have to have a wider range splitter. He handed me a 1 GHz splitter. I asked about the compatibility with MoCa and he replied "what?". I explained what I had read about the frequency of the MoCa and was told that I had read wrong. I purchased my own 0-2 GHz splitter and all previous issues to include widgets not being able to connect to the server, menu speed and reactivity and the nearly flawless streaming of VOD was a great improvement.

Can someone tell me if I am off the mark and just experienced a quirk in this improvement or did I indeed read correctly and fix my own problem.

Thanx