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story category UK Eyes Website Rating System, Filters
Protecting the children, one bad idea at a time...
(old news - 11:39AM Monday Dec 29 2008)
tags: legal · Politics · world · content · consumers
Tipped by FunnyBones See Profile
Apparently enamored with Australia's plan to filter the Internet of all its naughty bits, Britain's culture secretary Andy Burnham now says the country is exploring several ways to protect children from boobies and other Internet menaces. According to Burham, the country would like to work with the United States to create a film-style rating system for websites. They're also interested in forcing ISPs to offer services where the only sites accessible are those deemed suitable for children. An excerpt from Burham's comments speaks volumes:
"If you look back at the people who created the internet, they talked very deliberately about creating a space that governments couldn't reach. I think we are having to revisit that stuff seriously now...This is not a campaign against free speech, far from it; it is simply there is a wider public interest at stake when it involves harm to other people. We have got to get better at defining where the public interest lies and being clear about it."
Earlier this year a UK lawmaker proposed "Radical Islam" filters. Like all such plans, this raises the question of who dictates what gets censored, opening the door to future censorship that extends beyond the usual suspects (piracy, child porn). This is of course before you discuss the fact that the nature of the Internet and human ingenuity usually results in such efforts failing completely, but not before ample money and resources have been wasted pursuing them.

A less expensive option for the nations of the world would be better parenting. Moving your child's PC out of the bedroom and into an area where you watch them will likely be far more effective than multi-million dollar filtering efforts designed by politicians.

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Forums » UK Eyes Website Rating System, Filters
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Piggie
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Get what they deserve

So the bad sites move off shore and don't bother with the system.

People are so stupid, they want government to wipe their you know what's so their hands don't get dirty.

The world today is exactly what people have allowed.
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Re: Get what they deserve

said by Piggie See Profile :

... they want government to wipe their you know what's so their hands don't get dirty.

...
I have no desire to have the govt do anything but leave the net alone. It's the govts that are hot to trot for filtering and other sh1t - I think it drives them crazy that they can't control what people do on the internet. They all want to be like China.

CommieCowboy

@cgocable.net

Re: Get what they deserve

The only regulation the government should be involved in is regulation to protect people from unfair business practices on the part of ISPs and to ensure that people who provide access to the Internet cannot also provide Internet content. In other words, ISPs should not be allowed to sell music or movies to their subscribers because the nature of the Internet would ensure a conflict of interests unfavourable to customers.

funchords
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That's not the Internet, that's the InterNOT

We don't blow-up bridges because they lead to the bad side of town, likewise we don't cut cords that lead to websites we don't like.

The Internet is about connectivity and end-user choices -- warts and all,

badtrip
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1 edit

Re: That's not the Internet, that's the InterNOT

said by funchords See Profile :

We don't blow-up bridges because they lead to the bad side of town, likewise we don't cut cords that lead to websites we don't like.

The Internet is about connectivity and end-user choices -- warts and all,
The person who suggested this is an idiot. Why is this person in his position of cultural authority considering his insurmountable ignorance with regards to culture?

How are they going to rate every blog? Who will rate every my space or facebook page? The only way I can see it getting done (however sloppily) is a software algorithm and we already have many sloppy software algorithms to do this kind of crap.

swhx7
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Re: That's not the Internet, that's the InterNOT

The article is 404 on Yahoo now, but you can still read it here: »www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandte···ays.html

And I'll take the liberty of reprinting apt comments from "Robert" who posted in the reader remarks on the article. Do take a look at the page (for the picture) and you'll get a laugh from this.

said by Robert :

More sinister 'we'll protect you' spin from New Labour. As a huge percentage of adults both male and female in this country surf porn sites it will be interesting to see how much demand there is for kiddie-friendly ISPs, as it will mean Disneyfied browsing 24/7 for mum and dad too.

The only way site rating could possibly begin to work is voluntarily. There are already codes that adult websites put into page headers that allow them to be filtered out by the web browser.

But overall this is extremely sinister. As things turn bad for the government it proposes censorship and 'classification' of the web. Well the websites that I run are hosted in the USA and the UK government can go and whistle.

Andy Burnham looks like a complete pillock in that photo too.

FunnyBones
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Re: That's not the Internet, that's the InterNOT

The link is fine just got messed up »uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20081227/tu···408.html
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jmn1207
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Already Exists

Don't they already have 3rd party applications that people can use to filter content? Stuff like Net Nanny already provide children-friendly sites and age-specific ratings.

If they ever develop this silly rating system, where can I get a list of the filtered sites? These are the sites I want to visit.

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

Re: Already Exists

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Don't they already have 3rd party applications that people can use to filter content? Stuff like Net Nanny already provide children-friendly sites and age-specific ratings.

If they ever develop this silly rating system, where can I get a list of the filtered sites? These are the sites I want to visit.
Net Nanny/etc. have the same problem as this proposal when it comes to the list being subject to someone-else's 'what you can not see' agenda. As to getting NN's or the proposal's list of what is being blocked (or even the blocking criteria) that is secret (to prevent the censor from having to identify their bias/agenda).

jmn1207
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Re: Already Exists

The problem I have is not with the filtering methodology, but the proposal to force ISP's to offer this to customers. Like I said, these already exists for those people interested in some type of internet morality shield, I don't want the ISP to be anything more than a provider for a dumb pipe.

BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Don't they already have 3rd party applications that people can use to filter content? Stuff like Net Nanny already provide children-friendly sites and age-specific ratings.

If they ever develop this silly rating system, where can I get a list of the filtered sites? These are the sites I want to visit.
See that actually required parents to be well.... parents. Many people just want to fuck and if kids come along let the governemnt take care of them.

funchords
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Re: Already Exists

said by BF69 See Profile :

See that actually required parents to be well.... parents. Many people just want to #### and if kids come along let the governemnt take care of them.
I'd hit the "hey mods" button and complain but I'm afraid the Internet would simply crash in the irony of it all.
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openbox9

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Wow, I can't believe...

Karl actually opined something that I agree with.
A less expensive option for the nations of the world would be better parenting. Moving your child's PC out of the bedroom and into an area where you watch them will likely be far more effective than multi-million dollar filtering efforts designed by politicians.
Parenting tactics and family values continue to degrade, especially here in the US. IMO, the best, most efficient content filtering action is for parents to actually take an interest in their children's "hobbies", provide some old-school parenting tactics, and talk with and educate their children. Governments should stay away from censorship, no matter how they try to define it.

FunnyBones
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Re: Wow, I can't believe...

said by openbox9 See Profile :

Karl actually opined something that I agree with.
A less expensive option for the nations of the world would be better parenting. Moving your child's PC out of the bedroom and into an area where you watch them will likely be far more effective than multi-million dollar filtering efforts designed by politicians.
Parenting tactics and family values continue to degrade, especially here in the US. IMO, the best, most efficient content filtering action is for parents to actually take an interest in their children's "hobbies", provide some old-school parenting tactics, and talk with and educate their children. Governments should stay away from censorship, no matter how they try to define it.
In this day in age you have to have some better parenting skills and offer a lot more guidance and I agree you could move the pc into the family room other than offer some sort isp filtering.
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said by openbox9 See Profile :

Karl actually opined something that I agree with.
A less expensive option for the nations of the world would be better parenting. Moving your child's PC out of the bedroom and into an area where you watch them will likely be far more effective than multi-million dollar filtering efforts designed by politicians.
Parenting tactics and family values continue to degrade, especially here in the US. IMO, the best, most efficient content filtering action is for parents to actually take an interest in their children's "hobbies", provide some old-school parenting tactics, and talk with and educate their children. Governments should stay away from censorship, no matter how they try to define it.
This may be the best choice - intelligent parenting. But we all know that a majority of parents in the US are doing a horrible job of parenting their children. So, by default, the government is stepping ever more aggressively in to areas that parents should be responsible for. Both the court systems and the pols are filling in for all the poor parenting skills and permissive culture that has developed over the last 50 years.
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Re: Wow, I can't believe...

said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

the government is stepping ever more aggressively in to areas that parents should be responsible for. Both the court systems and the pols are filling in for all the poor parenting skills and permissive culture that has developed over the last 50 years.
And if the courts and pols make the infiltration voluntary, I don't have a problem with it. What I will have a problem with, and take offence to, is an assumption that all parents are inept in monitoring and educating their children.

funchords
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1 edit
said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

But we all know that a majority of parents in the US are doing a horrible job of parenting their children. ... Both the court systems and the pols are filling in for all the poor parenting skills and permissive culture that has developed over the last 50 years.
"THOSE DARNED KIDS THESE DAYS!"

I doubt we've ever had a generation of people who have held up their children's generation as more moral, respectful, or harder-working than their own.
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What we need to do is make the bad perants (I'm not saying they're all bad just saying the ones that are)feel horrible

Tell them ok we'll filter your internet but only because you are a %&#@)(*&^^% parent

the goal here is to make people that want to filter their internet because their kids might see something feel so bad that they take charge and become better parents or just get guilt triped to the extreme

how long can we let people fail before we must do something
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
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2 edits

Options are good. Blanket Censorship is NOT.

Not sure how many commenting have children, but the option for better user controlled censorship is beneficial.

I do like that my Tivo's require passwords to get to certain show ratings (or blocking unrated shows). I don't see a problem with a common film-style rating system for websites (as long as unrated is an option).

Once kids get old enough to work around these systems, then perhaps they are old enough. But until then I would like some better and more consistent controls in the unrequested pop-up web-world we have today.

Jason Levine
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Re: Options are good. Blanket Censorship is NOT.

"unrequested pop-up web-world"?

Maybe the web was that way 10 years ago. You could go to www.SeeminglySafeSite.com and have nude photos pop up repeatedly. (Had that happen during my first month of work once when I went to barnesNnoble.com instead of barnesANDnoble.com.) However, most recent browser versions (FF, IE6 on XPSP2, IE7) contain pop-up blockers. So you shouldn't have to deal with out of control pop-ups. If you do, either you A) are using a very old browser (time to upgrade) or B) are infected with spyware (time to clean that PC).

Yes, I have kids. Yes, I like having user-controlled options for blocking content. No, I don't want the government to block that content for me and/or tell me what content my kids should/shouldn't be able to see. Whenever politicians say they want to block content "for the good of the children", I get wary.
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devnuller

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Re: Options are good. Blanket Censorship is NOT.

said by Jason Levine See Profile :

No, I don't want the government to block that content for me and/or tell me what content my kids should/shouldn't be able to see. Whenever politicians say they want to block content "for the good of the children", I get wary.
Not sure you read the article, but the proposal is not to censor the Internet it is to "create a film-style rating system for websites". I would expected "unrated" to be an option. It also wanted ISPs to have a level of service which a user could subscribe to which honored that rating system. The latter is a bit much, but as people claim "monopolies" perhaps this is helpful.

Didn't a similar uproar happen when TV ratings and V-Chip came out about 10 years ago? People should try not to go to extreme thinking before they understand the details. I personally like options as long as I get to make the decision.

... and yes my browsers are up to date. And yes my family PCs are in public areas, but pop-ups still happen and young children tend to follow "click me" links.
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: Options are good. Blanket Censorship is NOT.

Your computers need a good scan then

I never get pop-ups and I use IE so if your getting pop-ups then you must have spyware

and someone must be doing the rating and if only 10% is rated then its usless
Corydon
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According to this article, he also said "some content should not be available to be viewed."

Sounds like Internet censorship to me.
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funchords
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said by devnuller See Profile :

Not sure you read the article, but the proposal is not to censor the Internet it is to "create a film-style rating system for websites". I would expected "unrated" to be an option.
It already exists, but it's voluntary. »www.w3.org/PICS/ This -is- a government attempt to make a system that is less voluntary.

said by devnuller See Profile :

It also wanted ISPs to have a level of service which a user could subscribe to which honored that rating system. The latter is a bit much, but as people claim "monopolies" perhaps this is helpful.
Where competition exists, there is plenty of room for ISPs that filter. There are dial-up internet services that promote their filtering as a feature, and nobody is concerned about their filtering because there is plenty of consumer choice available.

We're only having this Network Neutrality debate because competition has evaporated. Restore service provider competition and the NN concerns fade.
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said by devnuller See Profile :

Not sure how many commenting have children, but the option for better user controlled censorship is beneficial.
Absolutely. Instead of trying to use government funds to create and deploy filtering lists that are mandatory, the government of UK would probably be much better served on simply educating the public on filtering products. I don't know how many times I've had people ask me if there was a way to filter out "objectionable" material only to be surprised by the number of products that exist that they did know about.
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badtrip
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I have a 14 year old son. My parental censorship is as follows:

1. I realize that teenagers are going to actively search out violent, sexual, drug addled, etc. content on the net and elsewhere no matter what parents say. Hell, I was looking at Oui, High Society, Penthouse and many other magazines when I was in grammar school.

2. Be open and completely honest about my feelings about the subject(s) in question when talking to my son about anything that he asks about (or in the case of sex/drugs even if he doesnt ask).

3. That's it.

When my son stumbled across Goatse for the first time a few months ago and ran into the living room yelling he's never going to look at pics on the internet again, I calmly explained to him the history of Goatse. I then told him that the guy in Goatse looked like he was a willing participant in the picture and he may or may not have had medical issues (etc, etc). I followed that up with a warning about going to websites to look at pictures that on-line friends may direct him to. He promptly calmed down, largely because I helped him put his experience into perspective.

Or I could have flipped out and bought tons of worthless filtering software, bitched at my congressperson, threatened the host of the goatse file, yanked the power cord of the computer out of the wall and we all could have shoved our heads in the sand as a family while we beg the government to help us not see/hear/think unmoral things.

maartena
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I have no problem with a filter....

...as long as the users have a CHOICE in it whether to turn on or off the filter. I understand the need of protecting young children from porn etc, but I don't believe porn should be filtered from horny persons such as myself.

ISP's should only give you an open, unfiltered TCP/IP pipe. Then, you should be able to log on to a website of your provider and set filtering options. Don't want your kids breaking RIAA/Copyright laws? Checkmark the P2P filter. Don't want your kids to see porn? Checkmark the Porn filter.

Etc, etc. But someone who wants to receive it all, should damn well be able to receive it all.
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funchords
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Re: I have no problem with a filter....

said by maartena See Profile :

ISP's should only give you an open, unfiltered TCP/IP pipe. Then, you should be able to log on to a website of your provider and set filtering options. Don't want your kids breaking RIAA/Copyright laws? Checkmark the P2P filter. Don't want your kids to see porn? Checkmark the Porn filter.
If you're interested in a service like this, OpenDNS offers one that is free.
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fireflier
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Do it yourself!

"the country would like to work with the United States to create a film-style rating system for websites"

Yeah, let's drag the U.S. into this stupid idea too. . .
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Re: Do it yourself!

said by fireflier See Profile :

"the country would like to work with the United States to create a film-style rating system for websites"

Yeah, let's drag the U.S. into this stupid idea too. . .
Dragging the US (and other countries) into the plan is absolutely necessary for the program to work, as Australia is discovering. This actually has two benefits for the pro-censorship crowd:

1) You have the ACTA model to follow, which allows you to negotiate in secret with absolutely zero public input, then present each legislature with a fait accompli that they can only vote up or down. It completely eviscerates both the legislative process and the involvement of the public.

2) Involving as many countries as possible means that getting around the filters by off shoring becomes much more difficult.
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Jason Levine
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Great idea, get to work guys.

I think this is a great idea. Mr. Burnham should form a group to do this. To get the most accurate rating, they should personally review each and every web page to determine the rating.

Even reviewing ten pages per second at 8 hours per day (no weekends or holidays - they're protecting the children!) and at 1 trillion websites to review (ignoring that some will arise/fall/update during the review period), they'll be done with their review and be ready to launch in about 9,500 years.

Just for humor's value, we should stream their reactions over the Internet and order the URL list so some of the most hard-core/freaky sites wind up getting reviewed first. Of course, they would need to rate the site showing them rating the sites.... Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.
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DarkLogix

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Re: Great idea, get to work guys.

LOL and each time a reviewed site updates they must re-review it

the comedic value value is through the roof
so every video posted to youtube every myspace update (or new page) and as the most "harmful" must be reviewd first they'd never even get to a a normal site

but I bet people would pay to see the reactions on their faces
Asmodeus

join:2004-05-26
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You get who you vote for

and the people of Australia and the UK got theirs in spades. Nanny stater's always think of the children first. When did children start becoming our lowest common denominator with regards to allowing governments to institute or propose draconian measures to protect them without parental consent?

BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

Doesn't BBC show boobies?

All these countries trying to have filters have much more liberal Tv shows that we have in the states.

capecoddah

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Yarmouth Port, MA

Re: Doesn't BBC show boobies?

Or page 3 of the newspaper...

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1 edit

Whenever Government becomes involved with the Internet

They can't help but muck things up. Like the Aussie filters, this is going to be best described in two words:

EPIC FAIL

I've always felt that those who are clueless about technology (as most politicians are) should not be allowed to make laws affecting that technology.

Example: Former Senator Ted "Series Of Tubes" Stevens.
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TF

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Good intentions

This idea was thought of with good intentions but will not work and probably never even take off.
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mrchris
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1 edit

Adults and children sharing one connection

How do they expect to filter out bad stuff for the underage when you have a router with 2 adults (myself and my mother), a teenager (almost 17) and a preteen (almost 13) using the same connection?

I really want to see how these nimrods expect to do this with multiple age groups using one connection (whether LAN or simply router connection) for all users in a household.

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Re: Adults and children sharing one connection

said by mrchris See Profile :

How do they expect to filter out bad stuff for the underage....
They don't want to filter content out, they want a site ratings system, like the movies use.

However, a ratings system for a gazillion websites will be just as big of an exercise in frustration as filtering.
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wispalord

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Simple soultion

dont like what you see dont get online, dont want kids to see it WATCH THEM your the parents same goes with tv, music, radio, ect...

FunnyBones
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Re: Simple soultion

To bad the guy had to admit the dictatorship oops.
Video link »news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7801294.stm
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Roll on 2010..

"Under the provisions of the Septennial Act 1715 as amended by the Parliament Act 1911, the next United Kingdom general election must be held on or before 3 June 2010, barring exceptional circumstances."

Speaking as someone in the UK, this date can't come soon enough....
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