Tuesday Evening Links
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 BiggA join:2005-11-23 EARTH | A quirk... That's better than normal. Comcast has always charged for any use of an eMTA. Also, any cableco voice service is a rip-off. It's unreliable like Voip, and expensive like a copper landline. | |
|  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:That's better than normal. Comcast has always charged for any use of an eMTA. Also, any cableco voice service is a rip-off. It's unreliable like Voip, and expensive like a copper landline. Not the case here. We've switched quite a few AT&T and Verizon residential POTS lines to cable digital voice.
The only difference? 1/2 the price, higher reliability, and consistent billing. Does it go out of service with the network? Occasionally, but it doesn't experience those annual week-long repair intervals like the copper companies, and it doesn't complain when it rains. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... If you're going to give up the rock solid reliability of copper, then just go for Ooma or something free/almost free like that. Cable voice is a rip off.
After Irene, the power was out for a week here. AT&T kept their CO's battery banks recharged off of diesel power, and had diesel generators at the RTs to recharge them, with gas generators at most VRADs (a few of the bigger ones had diesel). The landline at home was rock solid the whole time. Meanwhile, it took something like 4-6 days AFTER the commercial power was restored for Comcast to finally bother to get their system back up. Cable just isn't reliable. It wasn't meant to be, and it won't be as long as Comcast and the cable companies don't treat their cable plants like copper plants. Copper plants have backups for the backups.
A Verizon cell line would be a lot more reliable than cable. Heck, anything would be. And VOIP is just as (un)reliable as Comcast, since it depends on them for an internet connection.
People don't think about reliability when they get a slightly cheaper cable phone service. But they should. It's not a carrier-grade product, it's not regulated as a copper plant, and it doesn't serve the same purpose as a copper landline. That being said, I'm not planning on having a landline when I get my own place, but I certainly wouldn't get cable phone either... just my iPhone. Hopefully at least one tower around me has good diesel backup. | |
|  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:If you're going to give up the rock solid reliability of copper, then just go for Ooma or something free/almost free like that. Cable voice is a rip off. Again, not the case here.
"Rock solid reliability" went away when Pacific Telesis decided they wanted to get into the cable tv business and turned its back on copper support.
While there are fits and starts of renewed copper here and there for U-Verse, generally, its just crap, and it is reliable in one respect: it will fail with the first rain of the season, and repair won't come for over a week. It is so predictable that we actually cry wolf, and pre-schedule the repair call based on the weather reports, so as to be first in line.
TWC cable digital voice runs $20/month with annual price renegotiation, and includes the usual array of features and unlimited statewide calling. The equivalent copper service runs between $45 and $5, depending on whether you buy the "insurance" plan and how creative they are in a given month.
Ooma, Vonage, Skype, and other Voip services all have problems based on internet routing - distortion, jitter, echo, etc. TWC's cable voice sounds like 3Khz copper without the static. In our case, there is a clear and discernible difference.
I agree with you, I'd still rather have a dedicated pair run straight to the CO, on a switched network, but thanks to a generation of neglect, that ship has sailed.
said by BiggA:After Irene, the power was out for a week here. AT&T kept their CO's battery banks recharged off of diesel power, and had diesel generators at the RTs to recharge them, with gas generators at most VRADs (a few of the bigger ones had diesel). The landline at home was rock solid the whole time. Meanwhile, it took something like 4-6 days AFTER the commercial power was restored for Comcast to finally bother to get their system back up. Cable just isn't reliable. It wasn't meant to be, and it won't be as long as Comcast and the cable companies don't treat their cable plants like copper plants. Copper plants have backups for the backups.
A Verizon cell line would be a lot more reliable than cable. Heck, anything would be. And VOIP is just as (un)reliable as Comcast, since it depends on them for an internet connection.
People don't think about reliability when they get a slightly cheaper cable phone service. But they should. It's not a carrier-grade product, it's not regulated as a copper plant, and it doesn't serve the same purpose as a copper landline. That being said, I'm not planning on having a landline when I get my own place, but I certainly wouldn't get cable phone either... just my iPhone. Hopefully at least one tower around me has good diesel backup. Agreed that telco would know better how to, and be better prepared for, operations after a natural disaster. Its unfortunate that they don't apply that same level of expertise to their day-to-day operations.
I would never advocate switching on cost alone. Cheap is just that. But telco billing is incorrigible - it will drive a normal person insane. Do you enjoy calling customer service every single month? | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... Just because your local AT&T CO sucks doesn't make cable any more reliable. AT&T will still stay up during a storm and cable won't.
Ooma is known to have the highest quality voice of any service out there. It is better even than cable phone service.
My parents have unlimited long distance on the landline, which is a total waste of money, but it's a flat bill every month. I keep telling them they should get Ooma and just get the most basic lifeline copper service as a backup, but they don't listen. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Just because your local AT&T CO sucks doesn't make cable any more reliable. AT&T will still stay up during a storm and cable won't.
Ooma is known to have the highest quality voice of any service out there. It is better even than cable phone service.
My parents have unlimited long distance on the landline, which is a total waste of money, but it's a flat bill every month. I keep telling them they should get Ooma and just get the most basic lifeline copper service as a backup, but they don't listen. Well, in the case of every local AT&T CO I've had to deal with in LA, cable has proven to be much more reliable and pleasant to do business with, regardless of pricing. And I say that as one who prefers telco. Verizon is nearly as bad.
Ooma works for some. In my experience, it doesn't work that well (ring no answer, jitter/distortion), but is on par with Skype, Vonage, and Googlevoice. The latter, however, is cheaper and free-er.
My folks still have AT&T copper - they're very resistant to change. I was only able to convince them to buy a cellphone (well, I bought it) six years ago, when they started experiencing AT&T's 2-3 week repair intervals and the neighbors were getting worried about them when they would ask to use the phone.
Unlimited/flat-rate-long-distance POTS service is not a waste of money if the service is as reliable as you seem to think, and the bill doesn't vary wildly - if it "just works". But I haven't had that experience here in two decades. | |
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·Comcast
| Also, with the cell phone plans all going unlimited, the case for having any sort of home phone service is getting weaker and weaker. It's just an annoyance at this point to have yet another stupid phone to ring, when most people just call the cell anyways. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Also, with the cell phone plans all going unlimited, the case for having any sort of home phone service is getting weaker and weaker. It's just an annoyance at this point to have yet another stupid phone to ring, when most people just call the cell anyways. When cellphone plans offer "HD Voice" duplex codecs that actually deliver, and call connectivity that's as consistent as POTS or cable, I would agree. Not until then. I can't take more than a few minutes on a typical cellphone connection, and I've gone so far as to use an older phone that doesn't support EVRC; in-depth calls are postponed for landline access. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... AT&T cell phones with a headset are marginally OK. Ooma is the choice for the highest quality- they are way above what a landline can do.
Cable fundamentally won't be reliable without power backup systems along the way. POTS has those.
In my parents' case, they could get Ooma and keep the lifeline basic POTS for the alarm system and during power or cable events. Although our Comcast goes out on a fairly regular basis, at which time EVERYTHING shuts down, TV, internet, and cell phones (since we use a Microcell and Wifi for the smartphones, they get like 2 weak bars without it). | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:AT&T cell phones with a headset are marginally OK. Ooma is the choice for the highest quality- they are way above what a landline can do.
Cable fundamentally won't be reliable without power backup systems along the way. POTS has those.
In my parents' case, they could get Ooma and keep the lifeline basic POTS for the alarm system and during power or cable events. Although our Comcast goes out on a fairly regular basis, at which time EVERYTHING shuts down, TV, internet, and cell phones (since we use a Microcell and Wifi for the smartphones, they get like 2 weak bars without it). We don't get Noreasters or Hurricanes, so our disaster prep is very limited and untested. Earthquake wise, the impacts of the last half-century have always been widely dispersed/distributed, so LA hasn't had a taste of how bad things could be - when we have a 9.0 hit, with liquefaction, loss of water and sewer mains, and if we lose the natural gas system or the underground storage vents and ignites (hopefully it just burns, but a detonation would be on the Pepcon scale or greater).
So while we have plans for worst-case scenarios, we're cognizant than none of them may work out, and concerns favor day-to-day reliability over potential disaster. Who knows, depending on the scale, whether any infrastructure will function. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BiggA join:2005-11-23 EARTH | Re: A quirk... Just about anything can cause power outages, not just hurricanes. That hurricane was a more extreme example, for a longer period of time for more people. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Just about anything can cause power outages, not just hurricanes. That hurricane was a more extreme example, for a longer period of time for more people. Agreed, but none of the outages we've experienced in 20 years resulted in a grid collapse.
Every event has been less than 24 hours, or confined to a very small geographic area, i.e. a zip code.
Hurricanes and snow-downed power lines aren't really "extreme". They're much more frequent and routine than anything we experience. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BiggA join:2005-11-23 EARTH | Re: A quirk... No matter what the power problem, cable still won't work with no power. POTS will. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:No matter what the power problem, cable still won't work with no power. POTS will. And if we had any significant frequency or duration of power problems, that would be germane. But we haven't had such outages here for over 20 years.
The vast majority of former Socal Verizon/AT&T wireline customers here would not be swayed by discussion of powerfail capability, when many have experienced week-long dialtone outages every year, complemented by multiple hour-long chats with customer service and repair, and never-ending billing "errors".
Telco gets $8/month for "wire maintenance", what the mob would call "insurance" - but then fails to honor their service committment. Better to spend that $100/year on two prepaid cellphones. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... I don't believe that in a second. Even without the trees or weather needed to create blackouts like we have here, there's still transformers blowing up, cascade failures, and regional blackouts that can happen anywhere.
If anything, you just made the case for a Verizon cell phone there. They have the most robust network in terms of power outages and other events. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:I don't believe that in a second. Even without the trees or weather needed to create blackouts like we have here, there's still transformers blowing up, cascade failures, and regional blackouts that can happen anywhere.
If anything, you just made the case for a Verizon cell phone there. They have the most robust network in terms of power outages and other events. You don't have to school me on what "could" cause such a failure, or why we should prepare for the worst.
But for whatever reasons you wish to entertain, other than very minor, short-term outages, caused by exploding transformers (the result of city permitting policies and "green" technology), our blackouts have been very limited in scope and duration.
We simply haven't [yet], forgive the expression, "enjoyed" any outage of any significance, in 20 years plus. Last years' San Diego event was about as spectacular as it has been in that time - a million without power from afternoon til the early morning. Does that satisfy you? 
Last year, Edison demonstrated its ineptness to deal with a few downed trees - for 500 customers who were out of power for a week. Imagine how they'll perform when we finally do have a real failure. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... Transformers can, and do, blow up. And it has nothing to do with energy efficient technologies.
New York and most of the northeast saw a massive blackout in 2004. There's nothing stopping something like that from happening in other parts of the country. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Transformers can, and do, blow up. And it has nothing to do with energy efficient technologies.
New York and most of the northeast saw a massive blackout in 2004. There's nothing stopping something like that from happening in other parts of the country. Indeed they do, I've witnessed it. Good times.
You're correct, it isn't due to energy efficient design - but the switch to eco-friendly dielectric fluid which combusts more readily.
In our local cases, while we don't have the weather strains, our city fathers simply fail to allow the utility to replace aging transformers, tying them up in the permitting process for a decade or more, then acting shocked(!) and surprised when things go "Boom!".
But these are all very small, isolated incidents, of very short duration. Very few people here have any concept of what "could" happen. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... Better than PCBs all over the place... it's happened recently around here... That takes power out for quite a while.
We have a lot of transformers that just blow. The only way to engineer around it would be to have a lot more redundancy, and no one wants to pay for it. Heck, all our utilities should be underground. But no one wants to pay for that either. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Better than PCBs all over the place... it's happened recently around here... That takes power out for quite a while.
We have a lot of transformers that just blow. The only way to engineer around it would be to have a lot more redundancy, and no one wants to pay for it. Heck, all our utilities should be underground. But no one wants to pay for that either. Evidence doesn't support "PCBs all over the place" from transformers. But I'm neutral on the subject - if there truly is an environmental hazard from the older, more reliable technology, I'm not oppose trading for slightly less reliability, so long as it is maintained and doesn't create a new, more frequent hazard by exploding.
Our history, however, is that the same governmental force that requires the "green" technology also thwarts the maintenance cycle, then feigns ignorance when things go sideways.
Undergrounding probably makes sense in places where lines come down or sag under icy and tree-fallen conditions. Not here in Socal. No way we're going to pay $50K/house (yes, $50K, actual figure assessed locally) for aesthetics.
And while it may be more reliable overall, when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. Been there, done that, won't be fooled again. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BiggA join:2005-11-23 EARTH | Re: A quirk... A town near here has PCBs leak on a sidewalk, people walked through them, and they were all over the place...
Everything, everywhere should be underground. It just makes so much more sense than aerial. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:A town near here has PCBs leak on a sidewalk, people walked through them, and they were all over the place...
Everything, everywhere should be underground. It just makes so much more sense than aerial. Not for $50K it doesn't.
And not when underground failure leaves you without service options.
Admittedly, that's more an administrative competency problem than technical, but having experienced the ineptness associated with under-grounding for aesthetics, I'll stick with ugly aerials and keep my $50K, thanks. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BiggA join:2005-11-23 EARTH | Re: A quirk... Underground would also increase the reliability a LOT. And the $50K is a massive pile of bloated BS. They just didn't want to do the work, so they porked the number through the roof. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA 1 edit | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Underground would also increase the reliability a LOT. And the $50K is a massive pile of bloated BS. They just didn't want to do the work, so they porked the number through the roof. No, the work has been done, and assessed at $50k/parcel. | |
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·Comcast
| Re: A quirk... Somebody's pumping the price on that. Putting wire in a trench doesn't cost that. Even with 100' lots (many are smaller than that), that's $500 a FOOT. It just doesn't cost that much. FIOS was something like $1-2k/house. Power probably costs more, maybe double or triple that. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA | Re: A quirk... said by BiggA:Somebody's pumping the price on that. Putting wire in a trench doesn't cost that. Even with 100' lots (many are smaller than that), that's $500 a FOOT. It just doesn't cost that much. FIOS was something like $1-2k/house. Power probably costs more, maybe double or triple that. Preaching to the choir. Tell that to the poor homeowners who are stuck with the lien. California governance at its best.
Undergrounding isn't new construction; its pole-removal, demolition, environmental cleanup, and a whole host of other activities - plus, the labor has to be imported on double-secret-overtime from out of state (in our case, Pennsylvania), since the local utilities are woefully understaffed.
So unlike Fios @ $2K-4K/address, you truly can run up a $20K bill. To get to $50K, you have to hire consultants. | |
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 | | Apple 3rd party cables... I doubt the knock off cables will be coming to the US. Since there is an authentication chip involved it makes the cable violate a whole host of different laws. | |
|  |  | | Re: Apple 3rd party cables... what about the canada system where you can buy the box with out outlet or mirroring BS. | |
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