 bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar That's one way to make profit. 
Good for them! I suspect that the "damages" is actually higher that what licensing would have cost, if Echostar just licensed the technology from TiVo. | |
|
 | |
| | bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar Actually, the defense was what was BS. Did you even read up on the case? | |
|
| | | |
| | | | 
Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
 ·PenTeleData
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by KrK  :Nonsense. Another Tivo Fanboi.... or one of those Dish haters. I still own my ReplayTV and showstopper, and am very familar with the details of these cases and DVR patents. Tivo is acting like another Rambus. That doesn't matter.
They own the patents so they can make the profit.
Don't like it, go invent your own technology. | |
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | | bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
1 edit | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by KrK :Instead of patenting the method, they have patents on the concepts or very ideas. Incorrect. You seem to need to read up on what you're talking about before you post.
said by KrK :But that doesn't mean it's a just ruling. It's just a legal one. The perfect rationalization for whatever you want to be right is to just say that your way is the only "just" way. How incredibly self-serving. And utterly ridiculous. | |
|
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | 
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by pandora :OK, I believe you. Why didn't Charlie bring this stuff up in court? 200 million dollars is going to hurt Dish, but its really going to hurt Dish customers who eventually have to pay it. I believe that "Charlie's" lawyers used every tactic available to them, including ignoring a ruling by the judge, but still lost.
When you run your business by stealing copying intimidating throwing around your weight, and the little guy just happens kick your ass anyway, you have to pay the price.
Unfortunately, this may affect Dish customers, but it certainly won't impact Charles "Charlie" Ergen "...the 89th richest person in the world with a net worth of $9.1 Billion." | |
|
| | | | | | | | | 
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar Explain your excessive fascination with Ergen. You certainly seem to hate the man with a passion. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by KrK :Explain your excessive fascination with Ergen. You certainly seem to hate the man with a passion. TiVo won, Dish didn't. It's nice to see that money couldn't buy justice. That's my fascination with the situation  | |
|
| | | | | | | | | 
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
·VOIPo
 ·Cox HSI
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar TiVo didn't invent anything, they just stole it from everyone else. And before you start barfing up that the patent office gave them the patent on this prior art remember they also game IBM a scroll bar patent in 1995 and the trademark office granted dispair.com a registration for ":-(". Our patent system is a joke.
You are right, there was no justice here.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| said by Bit :You should actually bother to read some of TiVo's patents, like their TV viewer interface patent 6757906 which is absolutely prior art (EPG 4751578 from 1985). TiVo in their patent laid claim to on screen guides, searching, selection and control, all of which are patented prior art. TiVo ads some background animation to the EPG patent and claimed it as their own and the PTO bought it hook line and sinker. A "more/next" arrow, what an innovation...never saw one of those before 1997. Gemstar (formerly Starsight) has similar patents from 1995 for interactive on screen menuing including scrolling and searching based on program characteristics, etc. They also had PiP and contextual linking within the guide. Hell the 1994-1995 Samsung Starsight enabled VCR could do most of what TiVo shows in their GUI patent. Same goes for simultaneous recording and playback, TiVo didn't invent it. TiVo didn't invent crap and the PTO screwed up granting patents for prior art as they frequently do. ... and TiVo had to strike a deal with Gemstar aka TV Guide Inc. (who has that AMAZING patent for using a spreadsheet to view TV shows  ). Gemstar had the patent, and TiVo had to concede. This is the way it works. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar No, then they would have merely paid licensing fees or purchased Gemstar's patent, not have been granted a new patent with a new number for the exact same thing.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by Bit :No, then they would have merely paid licensing fees or purchased Gemstar's patent, not have been granted a new patent with a new number for the exact same thing. That's what I said.
I'm not sure where I posted that TiVo was issued a new patent for the TV Guide Spreadsheet. If I did, I was wrong. Please quote me, so I can correct it. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
·VOIPo
·Cox HSI
1 edit | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar I said they got a new patent (vs licensing) for their guide. It was a good chunk of their "interface" patent 6757906.
Lots of the elements TiVo was granted a patent for in their interface patent were all prior art, previously patented by Gemstar or even the 1985 EPG patent and I'm sure many others.
And this wouldn't be the first time the PO handed out a patent on prior art as IBM got one for the scroll bar in 1995 when obvious to everyone, the scroll bar had long existed, including in Windows 3.1.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
1 edit | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar Deleted. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar You evidently don't know anything about justice. It sounds to me that you equate justice with things going your way. :rolleyes: | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
·VOIPo
·Cox HSI
2 edits | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar As if TiVo stealing the work of others, patenting it as their own and then suing everyone is justice. They are patent trolls, not innovators.
Note to the TiVo fanboys, TiVo isn't a religion. They did not invent simultaneous recording and playback or doing it with a hard drive. They did not invent the on screen guide. They did not invent on screen navigation. They did not even invent picking recordings from an on screen guide. They did not invent searching for programs based on criteria. They were not even first to market with their box. TiVo did not invent anything that their box does. It was ALL prior art, some of which patented prior art.
They are technology leeches who have exploited flaws in our patent system to their advantage then like every patent troll outfit, seek to extort money from other companies. Of course like many here, juries are too stupid to follow any of this. If it don't fit, you must acquit.
Enjoy your victory. TiVo will be bankrupt soon enough and all of these injustices will be righted.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | | | | | | bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar You can claim that they stole something all that you want, but you'd still be wrong. You're not the judge. The judge is the judge. Justice as spoken, and your perspective lost. Get over it. And get over yourself. Just because people believe something different from your own personal opinion doesn't make them fanboys -- are you a Dish Network fanboy? Is that why you're lying repeatedly in this thread about TiVo? | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
·VOIPo
·Cox HSI
4 edits | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar You TiVo fanboys are too funny. Read the patents genius. Read the Gemstar and EPG patents. TiVo didn't invent anything. They stole all of it from the REAL innovators in the industry. You can ignore these very simple, obvious facts and continue lying about TiVo innovation all you want. TiVo lawyers certainly have no trouble lying for them either but it doesn't change the simple undeniable fact that TiVo didn't invent ANYTHING.
You not seeing a problem with patent trolls like TiVo gaming our hugely flawed patent system is your business, but that isn't justice by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, the court says so...yeah, cause judges and juries never screw up...just ask O.J. Oh, cause the patent office says so, just ask IBM who was granted a scroll bar patent in 1995, when every GUI based OS and nearly every application already had it and had it for a decade.
The patent office granted TiVo patents on what is obvious to everyone else to be prior art. Then the idiots on the jury are instructed to determine whether or not Dish violated a patent that should never have been granted in the first place. Then we are expected to have the same patent office that screwed up in the first place, admit that they screwed up and reverse themselves...after allowing this scam to continue for years. Uh huh. Our patent system is a farce, endlessly gamed by patent trolls and thieves like TiVo.
It is laughable that the only quarter the "inventors of the DVR" turn a decent profit is when they extort money through their patent trolling schemes. But no matter, with ever declining revenues, their source of patent trolling revenues drying up and cable operators moving toward centralized storage, TiVo will be bankrupt soon enough and the TiVo thieves unemployed. THEN justice will be served.
News to the TiVo zealots...TiVo is not a religion and you don't have to endlessly excuse their IP theft and patent trolling.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by Bit :The patent office granted TiVo patents on what is obvious to everyone else to be prior art. This is where Echostar screwed up. They assumed this was apparent, this technology was under development all over the place, including theirs in-house. With prior-art and obviousness, I'm sure patent issues seemed minor and solve-able. With theirs and other DVR's under development, they'd not expect problems in perfecting their own. Which they did... and then had the boom lowered on them several years later after they had them out in circulation and lots of customers used to them and loving them. (Hello Rambus). Then in court Echostar still thought they'd win because they felt the Tivo patents would be voided. So they were wrong again. No wonder they fought it all the way and I don't blame them one bit. Even though a lot of people appear to dislike Ergen, very few people can say the man is stupid. If Echostar believed that they were wrong and had no case they'd of settled and licensed years ago. They fought because it the the right thing to do. Too bad they still lost. I admire them for standing on principle rather then just taking the bean-counter way and settling.... in this case the gamble didn't pay off.
It's not over for the 2nd round of extortion payments. but at his point Dish has little to lose, because they aren't going to turn off millions of DVR's. Tivo knows this and is looking to not only win big legally, they want to force Echostar into a really big licensing agreement that will cost subscribers milllions. SO no wonder they will fight on, and hope for the patents to be voided in the future.
It is laughable that the only quarter the "inventors of the DVR" turn a decent profit is when they extort money through their patent trolling schemes. But no matter, with ever declining revenues, their source of patent trolling revenues drying up and cable operators moving toward centralized storage, TiVo will be bankrupt soon enough and the TiVo thieves unemployed. THEN justice will be served. I worry they'll move on to Media PC type systems/Slingboxes etc next as their next target.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
| |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
See 8 replies to this post |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK |
Sure. Whatever you say, Bicker. | |
|
| | | | | |
| | | | |
| |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| said by KrK :The whole case is BS in the first place, and having Echostar over a barrel because they couldn't just turn everybody's PVR's off. Yeah. Echostar stealing from another company is the right thing to do. | |
|
| | |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar That's not what happened, and everybody knows it.
It's easy to say they just copied everything. | |
|
| | | |
DCIFRTHS
join:2000-02-18
Hartsdale, NY
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar said by KrK :That's not what happened, and everybody knows it. It's easy to say they just copied everything. Apparently the judge, and jury, don't agree with you... | |
|
| | | | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
1 edit | Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar Yeah, 'cause juries and judges always get it right, just as O.J.
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| | | | |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Yeah, but it doesn't make them right.
Firstly, Dish WAS developing their own DVR prior to the much ballyhooed "Tivo demos." In fact, I remember they were working with Microsoft at the time. MS briefly promoted their "Ultimate TV" box but quickly withdrew it or cancelled it. I remember Echostar got with MS and had them develop software.
Engineers testified at the trial that the Echostar DVR's were not based on Tivo's hardware or software but on inhouse developed code.
It really doesn't matter, what it all boils down to is Tivo won patents and then the features Echostar was using *were* infringing on those patents, so they win. However it bugs me when people say it's "Stolen" or "copied" and that the judgements are deserved. They're legal, alright, but hardly "fair". There's a reason DirecTV bought up ReplayTV's patent portfolio. It becomes a shield against Tivo. Personally I think the Tivo patents are overly broad in scope and patent not just a method but a concept or idea, and they they were granted while prior art or at least co-developing DVR's were clearly evident. Some of the patents they have also seem to seriously violate the "Obviousness" of extensions of existing technology.
So, heads, Tivo wins, tails, Echostar loses. But that doesn't mean it's a just ruling. It's just a legal one.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
| |
|
| | |
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | Just like patenting prior art is the "right" thing to do?
--
POKE 65495,1 | |
|
| 
dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ | Looks like DISH subs get to enjoy another line item unfee. | |
|
| | bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar Yes, perhaps... now paying for the value that they have been benefiting from for many years. It is a shame that Echostar chose to pursue a path that delayed that assessment from the people who should have paid it (their customers of past years) requiring it to be placed as a burden on their current customers. | |
|
NeoandGeo
join:2003-05-10
Harrison, TN | . I'm really out of the loop on this. But what exactly did E* do to infringe, and what did they do to try and get around it? | |
|
|
See 20 replies to this post |
|
cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Federal judge in Texas... Well, there's your problem Dish. The case was heard in U.S. Eastern District of Texas. It's considered the rocket docket for patent claims and if you are a dependent, you essentially lose before even stepping into the courtroom and presenting your case. Things were bad enough that the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit issued a writ of mandamus for it's lack of consideration for the defendants. | |
|
| 
herdfan
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Hurricane, WV | Re: Federal judge in Texas... Yes, but this case already went through the CAFC once and they upheld 90% of the previous ruling, including the injunction. Looks like the judge covered his a** on this ruling. | |
|
| |
cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN | Re: Federal judge in Texas... Agreed. My comment was more in general and not specifically to the merits of Dish's case. If Dish had any chance of winning, that chance disappeared when it was filed there though. | |
|
| | | 
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH | Re: Federal judge in Texas... That's exactly why TiVo filed the case there. Odd though, isn't it ? TiVo isn't based there... Nor is Dish... | |
|
| | | | 
totalaccess
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Elgin, TX | Re: Federal judge in Texas... and thats Texas 4 U...... | |
|
| | | | |
MooJohn
join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
·Windstream
| Effin ponderous I still find it amazing that you can own a concept rather than the method used to execute it.
Why isn't there one person who owns a patent on the idea of a word processor? The web browser? A cigarette lighter? You could go on all day with examples. How about just the idea of software as a whole -- the first written program should have given full control of future computing to that one person.
It's perfectly fine to have exclusive rights to a design -- a specific windproof lighter for example. It's entirely another matter to stake a claim to every possible way -- known now and developed in the future -- to make a lighter that isn't affected by wind.
It's also silly to be able to patent a specific feature of a product. Using existing logic, the first automaker that offered heated seats should sue any other company that added it to their model afterwards. Did Lexus' adaptive headlights violate a Tucker patent?
Where there's money, there's litigation.
--
John M - Cranky network guy | |
|
|
See 11 replies to this post |
|
amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| Not that I care that much.. But Tivo is a ripoff. Monthly fees after buying the thing just seems wrong. Sure, I rent a DVR from Cox, but I chose to do that instead of buying/building a standalone device.
If I bought/built a PVR of some kind, say, a Panasonic DVD recorder with hard drive (do they still make those?), you can be damn sure I would NOT be paying additional monthly fees to use the thing. Same goes for MythTV or MediaCenter. Looks like a "Channel Direct" subscription is $20 per year if you go with this - »www.monolithmc.com/tvdvr.php ...At least that's a fair price compared to Tivo...
This whole Tivo situation seems like a pure money grab. Dish "stole" their idea and now Tivo wants their cut.
Why didn't they sue Motorola? My Cox DVR probably "infringes" on their patents too. What's next, Tivo sues everyone who makes anything remotely resembling a DVR? Coke sues Pepsi for making cola? Fender sues Gibson for making electric guitars?
...While I'm at it, why are cable channels that are "clear" on analog encrypted on the digital side? If you subscribe to cable, ANY QAM TUNER should be able to get ALL digital channels except for "Premium" ones (HBO/Showtime/etc.) without need for a freaking cable card and the associated fees. Why on earth should Sci-fi, or TBS, or CNN need to be encrypted?
Even then, if they require a cable card, why can't people simply BUY something like that outright for a one time fee?
Total crap that one is required to rent a cable card/box for what should be "in the clear." Those "expanded basic" channels aren't scrambled on analog, so why "scramble" them on digital?
It's a huge step backwards and shouldn't be legal for the cable companies to even do... | |
|
| 
eric_n_dfw
join:2001-10-22
Euless, TX
·EarthLink
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Not that I care that much.. The fees are for the service - without which the Tivo would be "just another DVR". Maybe I'm just brainwashed, but every time I have tried another DVR (UVerse, Dish PVR, DirecTV, Myth) I end up wishing they worked as well as Tivo and happily have continued to pay Tivo for a service that makes life easy for us. | |
|
| 
BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by amungus :But Tivo is a ripoff. Monthly fees after buying the thing just seems wrong. Yep I neve r got the whole whole Tivo thing then once day I though "hey this might be an ok thing to have" well first the price of the damned thing nearly scared me off. Then I found out you have to pay $15 a month in addition. I thought "fuck that". In the days of VCR didn't you have to pay a monthly fee after you bough the VCR? Nope. All this is a modernized VCR. Renting one from cable/sat is almost as stupid. Do I get to keep all that I recorded if I decide I don't want the service anymore? With a VCR I record and I keep. Besides with sites like Hulu what's the point? Many shows you can watch online anytime if you miss it. | |
|
| |
eric_n_dfw
join:2001-10-22
Euless, TX
·EarthLink
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Not that I care that much.. Three features that I care about and nobody elsehave pulled off well (besides maybe ReplayTV, but they're dead and gone) :
• season passes that NEVER miss an episode (at least in my 7 years of using it)
• wishlists
• program suggestions
For now I am more than happy to pay my $13 to Tivo every month. Maybe I'm being ripped off, but there's nothing else out there that I've found competes with these features.
PS: FWIW, my biggest fear is that future DRM issues will screw it all up. I'm just doing OTA HD now, but plan to go back to DirecTV when they release their new Tivo based DVR, but I dread what DRM they may have plans to implement. But this probably would be more of a DirecTV mandate than anything Tivo would dream up. | |
|
| | | rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT
| Re: Not that I care that much.. The only people that don't understand paying for Tivo's Service are those who've never used one. Anyone that's used one for a period will understand paying for it. May not want to pay for it, may not like paying for it, but will still understand why someone would.
DirectTV thought they could pull a Dish and do a DVR as good as Tivo. More than 3 years later with a box that's 4 times more powerful (raw computing power) the thing is 10 times slower responding to commands and has less than 1/4 of the features. There is literally a 3 second delay sometimes after pushing a button. I never had even a 1/2 second delay on my DirecTivo HD. Hopefully we'll be getting a new Tivo Box or Tivo software on the DirecTV box shortly as I'm simply getting fed up with the DirecTV HD DVR. I've been living with less since I got my HDTV and I want my TIVO back even if I have to pay them a separate fee to get it as I'm not willing to go to Comcast. | |
|
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA
·Mediacom
| TiVO I hope Echostar buys TiVO and limits all future hardware to their service only. So all of the TiVO fanboys can quit cable and go to dish. It's a cable guy's dream... 
This company pisses me off. How can someone patent a concept? | |
|
|
|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
belawrence
It's All About The Games
join:2000-08-06
Santee, CA
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Cox HSI
| Stayed As quoted by another website:
Breaking News - DISH Network and EchoStar Statement Regarding Tivo
“We are pleased that the Federal Appeals Court in Washington temporarily stayed the district court’s order in the Tivo litigation. DISH Network customers can continue using their DVRs. We believe that we have strong grounds for appeal.”
--
Obviously you're not a golfer - Jeffery "the dude" Lebowski | |
|
Dish Customer
@vcweb.org
| TiVO sucks I've used TiVO and I've used Dish DVRs, and let me tell you, the Dish DVR is SO MUCH better than the Tivo.
The interface from Tivo to my Dish receiver at the time was idiotic -- two sensors taped in front of my Dish receiver would "re-beam" my channel changes from Tivo back into the Dish receiver. It was slow and it was lame. The actual DVR functions worked fine.
Tivo as a company is sleezey. They would not honor rebates for two units I bought. They said they would pay, and then they didn't. Tivo I want my $200 back!
The Dish DVR I have, Vip 622, is better in all respects. It is truly a great device and I don't mind paying extra fees because it JUST WORKS. Why else would CNET give it the editor's choice award for being the best DVR? BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST.
Maybe Dish Network should patent having the "best product"....idiots. | |
|
|
|
|
TiVo Wins Another Echostar Patent Ruling
Re: TiVo gains second judgment against Echostar