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story category The GPS Sky Is Falling
Or Not, depending who you ask
10:44AM Thursday May 21 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: satellite · business · trouble · stats · world
Tipped by Kilroy See Profile
A May 7 report by the General Accounting Office (GAO) suggests that government dysfunction and under-funding could result in increased GPS outages. The story got the press very hot and bothered, though even the Airforce seems to admit there's not much to worry about. In the UK, TelecomTV's Martyn Warwick argues that the GAO report is designed to scare lawmakers and the public into ramping up funding in order to protect America's GPS dominance.

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"This is more about political machinations, xenophobia, and jostlings for preferment and money than anything else," argues Warwick, who complains the U.S. government is playing Chicken Little in order to panic citizens "and anyone else anywhere else that takes the cynical ploy at face value."

More funding would certainly lessen the call for non U.S. controlled GPS systems like the EU's Galileo project, which the United States has vociferously opposed for years and even threatened to shoot down. On this side of the pond we have gotten pretty good at manufacturing a techno-crisis and stirring up the unskeptical press for political effect.

That said, while a lot of U.S. agencies who are supposed to be objective have shown they're anything but, the GAO traditionally hasn't been one of them. The office has frequently taken unpopular positions that disrupt the status quo, such as repeatedly pointing out the FCC's inability to accurately track broadband statistics.

The full report is available here in PDF format for your own analysis.

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Forums » The GPS Sky Is Falling
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Post a:
brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Miami, FL

Obama bailout

Obama will give them a bail out. He likes technology like his crackbarry.

knightmb
Everybody Lies

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Franklin, TN
·AT&T DSL Service


1 edit

Re: Obama bailout

said by brianiscool See Profile :

Obama will give them a bail out. He likes technology like his crackbarry.
Dude, the election ended last year. Wait for another 4 years for the 2012 election.

I read over the report, am I the only one that read this as more of a compliant about how the GPS is being managed than how much funding it has? There is nothing in either of these that even mention "under-funding".

These read more like one big nit-pick over management of the GPS systems than anything else.

The satellites that launched back in the early 90's have already started to fail since only 13 of the 19 are still in service. So while the new satellites are working just fine, the old ones are starting to crap out, so maybe there is a valid concern beyond the sky is falling. More like the satellites are old and failing.

pnh102
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Re: Obama bailout

said by knightmb See Profile :

said by brianiscool See Profile :

Obama will give them a bail out. He likes technology like his crackbarry.
Dude, the election ended last year. Wait for another 4 years for the 2012 election.
Given Obama's MO I am surprised he didn't blame Bush for this one like he has in just about every other speech he's given on every issue since he has become President.
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cdru
Go Colts
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Re: Obama bailout

said by pnh102 See Profile :

Given Obama's MO I am surprised he didn't blame Bush for this one like he has in just about every other speech he's given on every issue since he has become President.
He's been in office 4 months. Unless an issue is a recent development within that 4 months, it was inherited from the previous administration. That administration either caused the problem, didn't solve the problem, inherited it from their administration, or some combination of the 3.

r81984
Thread is
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Re: Obama bailout

said by brianiscool See Profile :

Obama will give them a bail out. He likes technology like his crackbarry.
If i remember correctly it was the republicans who set up most of the bailouts and freely gave away money.

I also recall the republicans now bitching the Obama is puting requirements on the bailout money because republicans like giving failing companies unlimited free money.
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R4M0N
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1 edit

This is a Crisis Administration...

Create a Crisis and capitalize on it... Call for an additional TAX on GPS devices in 3... 2... 1...

And before someone tries to point out the obvious, the same can be said about the previous administration too, but this one seems to be on a binge.

Sr Tech
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New Fairfield, CT
·Charter Pipeline

Re: This is a Crisis Administration...

Ok I don't get it, I know sometime back that a new system was being developed but the one concern was that the new system would not be compatible with current devices. But I am trying to find that article...

Here is one article about the Airforce apparently working with Lockheed on deploying new satellites.
»www.globalsecurity.org/space/lib···in01.htm

DaveNJ
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
Hasnt there been a crisis about every 6 weeks since Obama took office ? I think your right now there be a tax on people who use GPS. Soon we will have to take out loans to pay taxes.

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
Bingo, we're not going to raise taxes on anyone making below $250K (or whatever it was), we'll just raise taxes on all the stuff they use and give more "refunds" to people who don't pay taxes.
--
Come let us reason together.
nutcr0cker

join:2003-04-02
Chandler, AZ
Can we borrow a bomb from China and bomb the satellite, all problems solved

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo

join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

Re: This is a Crisis Administration...

It might be easier to use a missile instead of a bomb.

ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs:

I use GPS all the time...

but fail to understand what "demand" is put on the satellites that they cannot handle it. I thought they were a transmitting device that no matter whether 1 or 1000,000 gps' were using it, it didn't make a difference.

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
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join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO


1 edit

Re: I use GPS all the time...

It's a demand issue in terms of availability demand. What percent of the time enough satellites are visible to give a gps fix.
Each time a satellite fails (and they fail regularly), the availability goes down. It has nothing to do with how many people are using GPS.
GPS will always keep working to some degree until the constellation drops below 8 satellites, you will just get less position fixes at less location-times and less accurate position fixes which each satellite below a 24 satellite constellation if satellites are not replaced as they fail.
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ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

It's not about demand. The concern is that the current satellites are failing faster than new ones are being readied for launch.

Also, I don't see this as a demand for more money. As another poster said, it looks more like a complaint on how the system is being managed, especially in that new satellites aren't being developed quickly enough to replace the old ones.

ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs:
Thanks all... I just took the word "demand" in the wrong context.

spewak
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join:2001-08-07
Elk Grove, CA
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GAO vs. USPS OIG

Here is a link to the idiotic government duality that exists between these agencies:
»www.postalreporter.com/news/2009···ivities/
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MTU
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join:2005-02-15
San Luis Obispo, CA
·AT&T Yahoo

Scare Tactics

Nothing new here. The last eight years have been one giant scare-fest.
As for GPS, 'those in the know', are keeping LORAN active as a backup.

If you fly it might be of interest that the FAA, via airlines & avionics-makers' lobbying successes, is legislating to mandate reliance on GPS based (ADS-B). Eliminates reliance on ATC (all those pesky employees) to put the responsibility for knowing where your, and everyone elses, airplane is. Plus, the new equipment will be mandatory for aircraft owners flying in the system.

capecoddah

join:2005-03-18
Yarmouth Port, MA

Re: Scare Tactics

LORAN? You're kidding, right?
Most of the weekend-warrior variety of boaters don't keep paper charts (and don't really know how to use them) since the GPS magic boxes appeared. Never mind know how to plot a LORAN fix.

Same goes for cars. I give lots of directions in the summer. Many people claim their GPS will get them there. I say "Yup, let me draw a map anyway".

Also: On 26 Feb 2009, the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released the first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document identifies the Loran-C system as “outdated” and supports its termination at an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five years.
On 7 May 2009, President Barack Obama proposed cutting funding (approx. $35 million/year) for LORAN, citing its redundancy alongside GPS.
MTU
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Re: Scare Tactics

Re: LORAN - Not kidding. Worked in avionics firm where subj. came up as to recent adoption by PRC for their new sats. on same GPS freq. as Europe's system for military use.

Re: Obama - Like all Presidents, the office of management and budget gave him an item to sign to 'save money' and he signed it. Look it a bit further and you'll find that Homeland Security and Intel agencies (Incl. Rockefeller) are arguing to keep LORAN and move to eLoran.

Redundancy, redundancy. We must demand it despite the cost. Applies to all things critical.

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online


1 edit

Alternatives

This story had appeared about two weeks ago in Network World. While GPS currently has the monopoly on global positioning (no pun intended), Russia is working on getting their GLONASS system back online and Galileo is under construction. Having multiple alternatives instead of a sole source provider would be a good thing. Unfortunately, multiple source would require new equipment except for some of the high-end equipment that supports both GLONASS and GPS.

Unfortunately, all this noise could lead to another "us versus them" situation like we have been seeing with the Internet. The United States invented and funded its development yet there are countries that want control taken away from the U.S. and turned over to the ITU. We could eventually see a similar action to liberate GPS control from the United States because it is now considered an international resource. That would, however, be a lot more difficult to accomplish considering possession of the satellites is the key to the operation. With the internet, countries could simply cut their router links with the United States to try and force change.
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
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join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO

Re: Alternatives

GPS has nowhere close to a monopoly. It's just the only free service
There are plenty of commercial geolocation satellite services. Of course, those cost money.

Omega
Displaced Ohioan
Premium
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clubs:
Glonass and galileo will have nothing on the GPS system.
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Bobcat
Volvo sucks donkey balls
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join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL

Design life

I picked a GPS satellite at random. It was launched in 1996 and has a design life of 7.5 years. That means it passed its design life 5 years ago.

Do we want to continue relying on satellites that are already beyond their designed lifetime? Or do we want to have replacements ready to go into service?

--
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Design life

I suspect however that that "Design life" number is more of a measure of futureproof-ness than of useful life.

Off the top of my head I believe the average time from launch until a satellite has a critical failure that causes it to not be able to do what it was designed to do is about 15 years.
--
Come let us reason together.
nutcr0cker

join:2003-04-02
Chandler, AZ

We have destroyed America but we definately rebuild Iraq

From a developed nation to a nearly a third world country in 8 years of conservative administration. The republiscum declared a war on the middleclass America in their pursuit of the new world order. Go to hell scum and take Dick with you

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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Re: We have destroyed America but we definately rebuild Iraq

said by nutcr0cker See Profile :

From a developed nation to a nearly a third world country in 8 years of conservative administration.
When was the last time your electricity went out for more than an hour on a regular basis? When was the last time you considered installing a water tank because you can't depend on the public water working? When was the last time you called the police, and when was the last time you called and they told you they were too busy to come? When was the last time you had to run a roadblock because you feared for your life?

You've obviously never been to a third world country so I kindly ask you to close your ignorant, blindly partisan yapper with your melodramitic bullshirt.
--
Come let us reason together.
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

Re: We have destroyed America but we definately rebuild Iraq

Heh... actually he first 3 of the 4 things happened to me just last year. Not saying this is a 3rd world country, but you might've just convinced me..

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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Erie, PA

Re: We have destroyed America but we definately rebuild Iraq

By regular basis I mean nightly.

I'm sorry but we are nowhere near 3rd world status except in the eyes of the partisan nimrods who want to blame everything on the other party (which is why he conveniently forgets that the congress has been in his parties hands for a while now).
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DaveNJ
No Fear

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New Jersey
·Comcast
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1 edit
HINT: Obamas spending , and devaluation of the dollar has setup such a scenario. Wait till the inflation hits. Being partisan isnt cool anymore. So when you realize that Obama and the democrats are the majority, you will realize one party rule means only one party blame.

Just a Guess



GPS

No new news, however, lets no overreact either. You only need two satellites to coordinate a position. Three to triangulate. There are more than 15 satellites with GPS capabilities; not to mention military satellites.

Chicken Little has no place here.

NoVA_CoxUser
Stand back from the cage -- The RF bites
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Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI


2 edits

Re: GPS

said by Just a Guess :

You only need two satellites to coordinate a position. Three to triangulate.
Actually you need 4 satellites simultaneously in-view to obtain a 3-D GPS fix.

If you program your GPS receiver to assume an altitude (e.g. a boater at sea level) you can obtain a fix w/ only three satellites.

(the device ignores the "other" fix which isn't at the assumed altitude)
Endgame
Your member at work
Premium
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USA
I have no use for GPS whatsoever so I don't care what happens to it.

NoVA_CoxUser
Stand back from the cage -- The RF bites
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Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI

Re: GPS

Unless you need a precision time source for "something" to operate.

Something like a cell phone. (just one example)

Most -- if not all -- cell phone towers need GPS to provide their precision time sync.

That said, this article only hightlights the potential problem facing all major sets of infrastructure. It's too easy in government funding programs to "cut today and let 'the next guy' fix the problem" ...

... the problem is that the 'next guy' does the same thing.

Eventually 10 years down the road a HUGE bill becomes due and everyone [then] is aghast at the "mis-management" which caused this "huge problem."
Forums » The GPS Sky Is Falling


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