 espaeth Misanthrope Premium join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN | Irony? "the hands off the Internet coalition, spearheaded by AT&T, has written a letter to the FCC asking them to investigate Comcast for network neutrality abuses."
Pot, meet kettle. | |
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 |   gaforces United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
edit: November 13th, @10:30AM
| Re: Irony? said by espaeth :" the hands off the Internet coalition, spearheaded by AT&T, has written a letter to the FCC asking them to investigate Comcast for network neutrality abuses." Pot, meet kettle. They want to block p2p too ... After all, its reasonable network management. But users opting for our special Tier, which includes p2p for only $9.99 extra! Ask us about our special veterans day sale VOIP Tier! Cha-CHING $$$$$$$$$$$$$@! -- Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts, Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit, With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish. Solon | |
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 |  sm2016a
join:2004-03-02 Belleville, IL
·VoipYourLife
·Charter Pipeline
| said by espaeth :" the hands off the Internet coalition, spearheaded by AT&T, has written a letter to the FCC asking them to investigate Comcast for network neutrality abuses." Pot, meet kettle. This was a good laugh this morning. AT&T won't block you they will just keep limiting the speed you can get from them and then give your data to the NSA. Now that sounds like a winner....Not! | |
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 |   Nightshade Premium join:2002-05-26 Salem, OR
| Did you notice that the group is also against network neutrality laws? Yet they want the FCC to investigate Comcast for network neutrality abuses.
Definitely pot meet kettle, with a touch of hypocrisy to round it all off. -- True Happiness Must Come From Within | |
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 nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD | and that's our broadband policy ...posturing and games | |
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 |  bi0tech
join:2003-06-19 | Re: and that's our broadband policy and our foreign policy... and our economic policy... etc.. etc.. | |
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 axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI
| heh No honor among oligopolies, eh? I guess an investigation would be worthwhile, telecoms should not be able to screw with network traffic like that. I'm keenly interested in what laws/prior agreements can be used to stop them from doing it.
Shocked that AT&T would call for something that can be used against them, though. The only use I could see would be to test the water, if Comcast gets away with it then they fill follow... if not, a competitor takes a hit. | |
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  i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI
edit: November 13th, @10:55AM
| Can't the sock puppet read? Well DUH! Comcast's TOS clearly states no servers. P2P is a server.
If you want a server, rent one from one of the bazillion hosting companies on the Net. -- Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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 |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by i5050MbSoon :Well DUH! Comcast's TOS clearly states no servers. P2P is a server. So is every chat program out there. Should we ban those too? How about video conferencing? | |
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 |  |   i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by moonpuppy :So is every chat program out there. Should we ban those too? How about video conferencing? Are chat programs bandwidth-intensive applications that run unattended 24/7? -- Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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 |  |  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by i5050MbSoon :said by moonpuppy :So is every chat program out there. Should we ban those too? How about video conferencing? Are chat programs bandwidth-intensive applications that run unattended 24/7? They are still servers and therefore, against the TOS. | |
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 |  |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by moonpuppy :They are still servers and therefore, against the TOS. Just like the police don't enforce all traffic laws all the time but reserve the right to stick it to you when they feel like it, Comcast can enforce the TOS when and how they see fit. There is no law that says they have to enforce every infraction of the TOS. But they can enforce the TOS whenever they feel like. Don't like that, then go elsewhere. -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page
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join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by TK Junk Mail :... Don't like that, then go elsewhere. you say that a lot and it makes me sad. I don't have any elsewhere to go to. Does this mean you hate me? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by TK Junk Mail :Just like the police don't enforce all traffic laws all the time but reserve the right to stick it to you when they feel like it, Comcast can enforce the TOS when and how they see fit. There is no law that says they have to enforce every infraction of the TOS. But they can enforce the TOS whenever they feel like. Don't like that, then go elsewhere. Felt strongly enough you had to say it twice? 
Selective enforcement leads to problems. The problem becomes what was o.k. at one time becomes against the rules the next day. This leads to questioning on whether or not the TOS is selectively enforced for nefarious reasons. If companies do this then they deserved to be called out for hypocrisy. | |
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 |  |  |   DotMac Shill H8r Premium join:2007-10-26 Huntington Beach, CA | They don't say only "bandwidth-intensive" servers...all servers are a violation of the Comcast TOS/AUP. | |
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join:2001-10-19 Atlanta, GA
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by DotMac :They don't say only "bandwidth-intensive" servers...all servers are a violation of the Comcast TOS/AUP. They didn't say it, but you can bet your last dollar that's what it means. It's a clause put in their to protect their butts, and if they need to use it they will. They don't care about the strict definition of a server, they care about making sure their network runs smoothly. | |
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 |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| said by moonpuppy :said by i5050MbSoon :Well DUH! Comcast's TOS clearly states no servers. P2P is a server. So is every chat program out there. Should we ban those too? How about video conferencing? We could argue that point -- offering an assortment of files for anonymous strangers to download seems a lot more "server-like" than a 1:1 connection streaming audio and video (or text) back and forth. I bet I'd win in court. 
[Please, spare us the dictionary definition, if anyone's thinking of pasting it in -- we've all read it and it's not really helpful to the conversation.] | |
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join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by jester121 :[Please, spare us the dictionary definition, if anyone's thinking of pasting it in -- we've all read it and it's not really helpful to the conversation.] Really? Why don't the ISPs spare us the legalese that defines nearly everything we do online against the TOS. | |
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 |  |   i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! said by qworster :Ever hear of Skype? 44 million others have! Skype runs on a p2p protocol. Guess what? Skype is a server. Is skype a bandwidth-intensive app that sucks your connection dry 24/7/365? -- Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! said by i5050MbSoon :Is skype a bandwidth-intensive app that sucks your connection dry 24/7/365? Neither is BT for many legit users, but you're missing the point. Crap-canning all of P2P technology/uses shuns perfectly legitimate (and non-bandwidth hogging) uses that many come to define why they use the internet. | |
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 |  |   hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs:
| said by qworster :If Comcast and others strictly enforced their ToS, 3/4 of their customers would be kicked off their network! How do you think THAT would affect their bottom line? But they are NOT strictly enforcing it are they?
Hob -- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
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| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! said by hobgoblin :said by qworster :If Comcast and others strictly enforced their ToS, 3/4 of their customers would be kicked off their network! How do you think THAT would affect their bottom line? But they are NOT strictly enforcing it are they? Hob Nope they are not. Instead they use Sandvine to kick us off individual programs. This gives them the ILLUSION of being a net neutral ISP-without actually having to BE one! | |
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 |  |  |  |   hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs:
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! "Nope they are not. Instead they use Sandvine to kick us off individual programs. This gives them the ILLUSION of being a net neutral ISP-without actually having to BE one!"
What they are doing has absolutely nothing to do with net neutrality. Its safeguarding their network which they are perfectly entitled to do....but you knew that | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   Boogeyman Drive it like you stole it Premium join:2002-12-17 Huntsville, AL
·Comcast
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! Um, actually its the definition of network neutrality. All network protocols/services are supposed to receive equally neutral treatment.
They are blocking a certain service on their network because they feel it uses too much bandwidth.
They can call it a "quality of service" issue all they want, it doesnt mean its not going against the principle of network neutrality.
If thats ok, then I think we should ban all Cadillacs from public roads. They are so big and take up so much space, and besides, its mostly drug dealers driving them. So its ok then. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! said by Boogeyman :Um, actually its the definition of network neutrality. All network protocols/services are supposed to receive equally neutral treatment. NO. The definition of Network Neutrality is that all content providers are treated equally - not all protocols or services. Your definition of Network Neutrality has been twisted to fit your bizarre interpretation. -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs:
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! "NO. The definition of Network Neutrality is that all content providers are treated equally - not all protocols or services. Your definition of Network Neutrality has been twisted to fit your bizarre interpretation."
Thank You.
And even so they are treating all p2p traffic equally!
Hob -- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Boogeyman Drive it like you stole it Premium join:2002-12-17 Huntsville, AL
·Comcast
| Um, I guess you guys dont remember how the whole debate came about. Sure, the providers being treated equally was PART of it, but do you not recall the other issues involved?
If they are allowed to degrade the service of a certain protocol just because a lot of people use it, what happens when they decide that streaming video uses too much resources? Thay can then degrade every other streaming video site and only allow theres to work. Or try to degrade it altogether since hey, they make more money from cable tv anyway. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| Re: Well, DUH! EVERYTHING today is a server! You answered your own statement. Network neutrality involves degradation of other content in favor of the ISP's. What's being done now by a lot of ISPs is shaping across the board without showing favoritism anywhere. This is NOT a network neutrality issue...it's a network management issue. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 8 replies to this post |
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 |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | The nice thing about a TOS is that it can be enforced selectively, even at a whim. This goes against the kindergarten "THAT'S NO FAIR" mentality that's pervaded our society, but that's life. | |
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 |  cornelius785
join:2006-10-26 Worcester, MA
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? i'd hardly call all p2p stuff servers. servers imply there are clients. the server hosts some service (ftp, http, mail, game, etc.) for clients to use. i'd consider the majority p2p stuff more ad-hoc than server based. bittorrent (assuming you are not hosting a tracker) is more of a hybrid, but you are NOT the server, but only a client to the tracker server, but only a PEER to everyone else on the ad-hoc network. why do you think they call it 'PEER to PEER' anyways? this is no longer the traditional warez system of servers hosting the pirated material and clients downloading the files. | |
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 |  |   i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by cornelius785 : why do you think they call it 'PEER to PEER' anyways? I thought it was PIRATE to PIRATE.  -- Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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 |  |  |   MysticGogeta The Robot Devil Premium join:2005-03-14 League City, TX clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? True but I don't want some company clamping don't on p2p it will create a snow ball effect and they will say "Hey why not do it on our most bandwith intensive hours" If you offer the speed you can do 2 things 1. Offer the speed with out crippling it at all 2. Set up bandwith caps that clearly state your limit. Personally I would rather be caped then have sandvine. -- Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
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 |  |  |  |   Boogeyman Drive it like you stole it Premium join:2002-12-17 Huntsville, AL | Re: Can't the sock puppet read? I wouldnt mind throttling, but not capping. But it would have to be rather lenient and fair throttling. As in, during peek hours, no more than say 1/4 speeds if sustained for longer than 30 min or something. | |
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 |  |  |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA | Right. I "pirated" my copies of Knoppix... | |
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·Pacific Bell - SBC
edit: November 13th, @09:16PM
| Despite your analysis of P2P networks, you fail to take into account the words in the Comcast AUP, The AUP actually prohibits "...providing network content, or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network)...".
Do you think that P2P doesn't offer "network content" to "anyone outside of your Premises LAN"? -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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 |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by i5050MbSoon :Well DUH! Comcast's TOS clearly states no servers. P2P is a server. Not so clearly as you think. The AUP actually prohibits "...providing network content, or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises LAN (Local Area Network)...". So, while P2P probably qualifies as a violation of this policy, not everything which is a "server" does. Not even a mail server, if it is set up to only provide email service for the Comcast members on the LAN.
If you want a server, rent one from one of the bazillion hosting companies on the Net. Who rents P2P servers? -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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 |  |   i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI
| Re: Can't the sock puppet read? said by NormanS :Who rents P2P servers? Geeze Norm, ever wonder why they are not easy to find? -- Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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 |  |  |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA | Re: Can't the sock puppet read? Nobody needs them as long as folks are running clients like uTorrent. The question should have been seen as rhetorical. -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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 |  notwrth10
join:2007-03-03 1001EB | Man you guys/gals have a lot to learn about the internet. I think once you stop feeding the corporate kool-aid (cable and DSL alike) then you as a "american" society will get somewhere.
Till then do you prefer grape, cherry or orange? | |
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  Yauch
join:2005-06-24 | As you fall from grace... ...the only words you say are:
Put your hand inside the puppet head | |
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  darbea from the Dark Side Premium join:2007-07-15 Coatesville, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| P2P A recent report by Ellacoya (they provide deep-packet inspection equipment)states that P2P traffic is not the Internet's largest consumer of bandwidth. Instead, video-streaming formats that utilize the Internet as a transport mechanism are the bandwidth busters, accounting for 46% of all Internet traffic. In fact, streaming video accounts for 36% of all HTTP traffic.
And of that 36%, YouTube is the king, taking a full 20%.
P2P usage is not as bad as demonized by the ISPs and the RIAA and all the RIAA maggots. It is simply an easy target due to the minority of those who use the protocol to obtain or distribute illegal content.
As for the Comcast TOS regarding exchanging info with a party outside "your lan", I guess email to and from non-Comcast subscribers is technically a violation of the TOS.
It's 1984. -- Friends Don't let friends vote Republican
Somewhere in Texas There's a Village Missing an Idiot and here's a clue: "Is our children learning?" --George W. Bush
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