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story category Supreme Court TiVo/Echostar Ruling
Won't hear case, Echostar must shell out $104 million...
11:45AM Tuesday Oct 07 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · satellite · business
Tipped by TK Junk Mail See Profile
The Supreme Court announced this week it is refusing to take up EchoStar Communications' appeal against a patent infringement suit filed against it by TiVo. Back in 2006, a jury ruled that Dish Network DVRs infringed upon a TiVo patent, and forced the company to pay TiVo $73.9 million in damages -- a ruling that was upheld in federal appeals court in January. The Supreme Court's refusal to hear the case means Echostar has to pay full damages plus interest -- a tidy sum of $104 million -- and adhere to a permanent injunction against infringing digital video recording products.

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Forums » Supreme Court TiVo/Echostar Ruling
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Post a:
BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

Look for DirecTv to buy Dish

those against the merger don't have much choice but to support it because otehrwise Dish goes belly-up.
kingdomware

join:2000-09-23
Waldorf, MD

edit:
October 9th, @08:56PM

Re: Look for DirecTv to buy Dish

The merger thing was tried before and denied by the feds. I believe Dish lost 300 million on that deal.

RoguePimp

join:2001-01-31
Phoenix, AZ
Dish is not about to go "belly up". Get your facts straight!
The Blue Hag

join:2008-08-25
Winchester, CA

Re: Look for DirecTv to buy Dish

Well, I have DIsh and it sucks; it would be nice if they did "go belly up"... LOL
kingdomware

join:2000-09-23
Waldorf, MD

Re: Look for DirecTv to buy Dish

Then switch. Your comment makes no sense. No one is pointing a gun to your head to keep Dish.
The Blue Hag

join:2008-08-25
Winchester, CA

Re: Look for DirecTv to buy Dish

only the two year contract....

Queens RR

@rr.com

Good.....

I hate DN..... They have so many dishes, and make their system so complicated...... You get a new dish, and then a super dish comes out...

thewolfman

join:2003-04-03
Niagara Falls, NY
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Good.....

said by Queens RR :

I hate DN..... They have so many dishes, and make their system so complicated...... You get a new dish, and then a super dish comes out...
Wow, you really hit the nail right on the head. A satellite company that uses a dish to receive the signal. I just wished they gave out free dish upgrades when you need one for programming. Oh, wait, they already do that. ROTFLMAO....
--
Live and learn........
gworkman7

join:2005-10-18
Vail, AZ
·magicjack.com
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·Broadvox Direct

Re: Good.....

I'm sure the OP is pointing to the fact that Dish Network constantly changes the requirements for receiving its signal. I had the Dish 500, had to add a second dish to get locals, didn't need the second dish, then needed a different dish to get HD. All of this within a 3 year period of time. The company has poor leadership, no direction and is in court way too often. It is amazing this nickel and dime operation is still in business.

thewolfman

join:2003-04-03
Niagara Falls, NY
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Good.....

said by gworkman7 See Profile :

I'm sure the OP is pointing to the fact that Dish Network constantly changes the requirements for receiving its signal.
I'm sure he can defend himself, don't you??

How much did you have to pay for "all those dishes"?

If E* violated the TIVO patent, they should pay. But don't tell me that D* doesn't do the same thing with regards to the multiple dishes.
--
Live and learn........
gworkman7

join:2005-10-18
Vail, AZ

Re: Good.....

I sincerely thought you didn't understand his post.
footballdude

join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO

said by thewolfman See Profile :

don't tell me that D* doesn't do the same thing with regards to the multiple dishes.
DirecTV doesn't do the same thing with multiple dishes. One dish does it all. Though seeing as how the dish sits on my roof and the installer was the one that had to climb up there, I honestly wouldn't care if they had to put another one in.
--
It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash

v35_pilot
Whoops, there goes another AMU
Premium
join:2005-12-12
Fayetteville, NY
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said by Queens RR :

I hate DN..... They have so many dishes, and make their system so complicated...... You get a new dish, and then a super dish comes out...
Yep, that's a good a reason as any to "hate" a company.

Last I checked DN customers didn't really need to concern themselves with the system; installers do.

PhonePower
Premium
join:2007-07-20
Winnetka, CA

Re: Good.....

I've had the same thing with directv. Single LNB dish, triple LNB dish and now an oval 5 LNB dish. It's always free.

Dogfather
Altitude is your friend
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

If you can't beat 'em

Sue em.

ericdude

@zappos.com

Re: If you can't beat 'em

Dish violated Tivo's patents. They've lost time after time and the supreme court said enough is enough. Good for Tivo.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Re: If you can't beat 'em

It's BS. We always know that lawsuits are just and proper.

E* has made some of the best DVR's ever, that's really why they were sued.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Neyland85

join:2003-02-04
North Augusta, SC
·AT&T Southeast

Re: If you can't beat 'em

I have a VIP Dish DVR and recently purchased a Tivo unit for OTA recording as the Dish only supports one OTA session (which stinks for multi local HD recording).

I've found I like the Dish interface much better than Tivo's. The Tivo seems slow and 'bulky'. I wish Tivo would allow me the window for the currently watched program while I look at settings or what's on the HD or Season Passes.

eric_n_dfw

join:2001-10-22
Euless, TX
·EarthLink
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·Speakeasy

Re: If you can't beat 'em

I guess it depends on what you're used to. I also have an HD VIP and a Tivo HD. I'm used to the Tivo interface from many years of using a DirecTivo and found the VIP to be very unintuitive.

Also, the lack of wish lists and suggestions drove me crazy.
slomike2

join:2007-07-18
San Luis Obispo, CA

If you don't want to pay for a product, steal the technology and copy it. That is what Dish did, and now they have to pay for it. It is about time.

I can't count the number of times I have had Echostar (Dish Network) sales reps call me and say that they have TiVo. Dishonest company with a dishonest sales force.

Dogfather
Altitude is your friend
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

edit:
October 7th, @12:36PM

Re: If you can't beat 'em

Sure, 'cause no one before 1998 ever saved a TV program to a hard drive. What's next, TiVo going to patent the scroll bar?
rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

Re: If you can't beat 'em

Tivo existed before 1998, the technology was pioneered long before that. You might think it's trivial now, but the fact is when Tivo and ReplayTV got started no one HAD saved a TV program to a hard drive in real time. When Tivo got started processors were 90mhz pentiums. It might be trivial today to do what they did when it wasn't trivial in the least but that doesn't change the fact that they pioneered the entire field.

Dogfather
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edit:
October 7th, @12:54PM

Re: If you can't beat 'em

No but they were doing it on optical disks more than 10 years earlier, detailing in their patent exactly what TiVo does, buffering, simultaneous recording and playback etc. TiVo was nothing new. They were just the first to commercialize it.

Saying TiVo "pioneered" the DVR is like saying Apple "pioneered" the GUI. Both just commercialized the pioneering of others (in TiVo's case, Rafner and in Apples case, Xerox). Meanwhile didn't Replay beat TiVo to market?

megazone

@speakeasy.net

Re: If you can't beat 'em

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Meanwhile didn't Replay beat TiVo to market?
No. TiVo and ReplayTV were in simultaneous development. ReplayTV made their first press announcement shortly before TiVo, but TiVo shipped hardware to consumers first, in March 1999. TiVo was on shelves before ReplayTV shipped hardware to customers.

Dogfather
Altitude is your friend
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

edit:
October 7th, @03:49PM

Re: If you can't beat 'em

I thought The $700 model ReplayTV came out that January, 2-3 months before TiVo, that it was in some stores just a few weeks after CES.

megazone

@speakeasy.net

Re: If you can't beat 'em

Not to my knowledge. ReplayTV 'launched' in January 1999, but as I recall products were actual available until a few months later, after TiVo was shipping.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Meanwhile didn't Replay beat TiVo to market?
I believe ReplayTV (I own one) announced and demostrated units first, but Tivo went into midnight madness rush-rush-rush round the clock mode and beat ReplayTV to market by a month or so.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

megazone

@speakeasy.net

This is a common misperception. TiVo did not patent recording video to a hard drive. Their patents are specific on methods in hardware and software. DISH was found to specifically infringe TiVo's patents in both areas, then the hardware finding was reversed on appeal, but the software patent violation was upheld. The USPTO also upheld TiVo's patents on review. What TiVo did was new and unique and not covered by prior art. Yes, there were other systems capable of similar functionality on a gross level - recording and playing back video simultaneously, etc - but TiVo's patents are not that broad.

Even if someone already has a way of doing something, if you come up with a new way to do the same thing, or a significant improvement on their method, you can patent it. That's always been a fundamental part of the system to encourage new development. TiVo didn't just patent a general concept, they patented specific methods and implementations.

DISH had been in negotiations with TiVo to build DVRs for DISH. They had received a prototype TiVo unit for evaluation as well as design specifics. Then, after receiving everything, they stopped negotiating and designed their own DVRs. And those DVRs were found to have used concepts taken from TiVo's design, infringing on their patents.

cdru
Go Colts
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join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

said by slomike2 See Profile :

I can't count the number of times I have had Echostar (Dish Network) sales reps call me and say that they have TiVo. Dishonest company with a dishonest sales force.
Go into any Wal-mart and ask where the Kleenexes are and they will show you to the tissue paper aisle. Go into any business machine store and say you want a Xerox machine and they will show you a whole bunch of different copy machines. Many people say they are going to Tivo a show, but they don't even have a Tivo. They associate all DVRs as Tivos just like many associate Kleenex with tissues or Xerox with copiers.

This doesn't excuse Dish Network (or more likely some subcontracted telemarketing company) from saying that they had a Tivo, but it's not uncommon or unheard of either.
rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

Dish had Tivo present their software and hardware for review, went through negotiations to get access to all the technology then dropped them and made their own using all the trade secrets they acquired from Tivo. It's as dirty as it comes. They should be paying Tivo a LOT more than 100million.

Dogfather
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edit:
October 7th, @12:42PM

Re: If you can't beat 'em

Recording while watching and time shifting aren't "trade secrets".

Video buffering, recording one program while watching another and time shifting was patented more than 10 years before TiVo filed theirs »patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars···,972,396

quote:
In yet another illustrative example, a dual head system as illustrated in FIG. 2 could provide the ability to edit, review or output sensor acquired data without interfering with an input data stream. On a consumer level, a two-headed recording-reading optical video disk system would provide advantageous features over the current generation of magnetic tape video cassette recorder (VCR) equipment. For example, with the magnetic tape VCR technology, the viewing of a recorded broadcast can only begin after the broadcast has been completed and the tape is rewound. With a dual head disk system, such as is shown in FIG. 2, however, regular or even accelerated viewing could begin any time after the recorder was activated. In a home/consumer setting, a consumer might begin recording a program at 7:00 p.m. but begin viewing the program at 7:10 p.m. The disk system would thus contain ten minutes of buffered video data. As the viewer encountered parts of the recorded broadcast he did not wish to watch, he could easily "fast forward" over the segments. In the above situation, independent read and write mechanisms would suffix. Dual recording-reading heads would provide the additional capability to record and/or play two inputs simultaneously. Since the recording heads move independently and can be positioned anywhere along the tracks of the spinning disk, one of the heads could be tied to the video input from the television, for example, while the other head outputs a delayed video signal to the television screen. While the first head is receiving input information from the receiver of the television, the second head would be reading tracks previously recorded by the first head ten minutes before.

See 15 replies to this post

Bleet

@comcast.net

Uh...

The article that you link to says $73.9 million, not just $73.9 in damages.

MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
·Windstream

TiVo? NO

Thank God they didn't "infringe" on those stupid noises for each button press! I'm just sorry you're able to obtain patents for basic ideas like anything played from a buffer can be paused and then resumed -- how revolutionary! Again, it's absurd that you can patent an idea rather than the process used to achieve it.

They won't get my DVR back -- this just means I won't be able to buy any others from Dish when this one dies. Either way, I will never own any product from TiVo. I'll build my own DVR before I give them a dime.
--
John M - Cranky network guy

See 10 replies to this post

jasonsjunk

@embarqhsd.net


from:
KrK See Profile

Tivo is a thief too

Tivo has been stealing code from the open source community for years and has rarely ever contributed anything back. Tivo DVR's run Linux and have always ran Linux. Compare some of Tivo's functionality to MythTV and Freevo. While there are big differences in the GUI's the foundation for recording video to the hard drive is the same. Funny thing about Dish network and DVR's is I don't even need their DVR as I have built my own which can far exceed the capabilities of theirs.

See 6 replies to this post
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?

join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA
·Comcast Formerly ..

They should have paid the seventy three dollars and 90 cents

Back in 2006, a jury ruled that Dish Network DVRs infringed upon a TiVo patent, and forced the company to pay TiVo $73.9 in damages --

Echostar has to pay full damages plus interest -- a tidy sum of $104 million --
Did BBR slip a decimal or is this one of them .01 dollars versus .01 cents things?

megazone

@speakeasy.net

Re: They should have paid the seventy three dollars and 90 cents

It was $73.9 *million* in damages.
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?

join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA
·Comcast Formerly ..


edit:
October 7th, @02:15PM

Re: They should have paid the seventy three dollars and 90 cents

said by megazone :

It was $73.9 *million* in damages.


No way, $73.9 *million* Are you for serials?

I know that I was just poking fun at BBR for leaving off the "million" in the article.
scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC

Boy do the news editors here have this SO wrong...

The injunction is still being fought over . There have been over 7500 posts on this lawsuit over at www.dbstalk.com in various threads, and even we can't agree with what the actual situation is.

Squirrelly

join:2000-10-24
Harrisburg, PA

Re: Boy do the news editors here have this SO wrong...

I was recording TV on my computer before tivo I believe. I was using an ATI All in Wonder. What's the difference doing that and what tivo claims? The problem is not with tivos patent but with the patent office.

RainWind

join:2000-10-20
Van Wert, OH

Re: Boy do the news editors here have this SO wrong...

That's how it always goes. Someone takes an idea that's been done before and patents it in such a way that nobody can do anything similar.

Its not a revolutionary idea. It wasn't anything brand new. Our court system just happens to suck when it comes to patents. They allow overly broad patents to lock people out of a market.

Another good example of this stupidity is VoIP.

Both the TiVo and VoIP patent issues are all a bunch of crap. Its not about protecting IP, its about controlling the market for a specific type of product. They want to prevent competition to increase their profits.
Forums » Supreme Court TiVo/Echostar Ruling


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