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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
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Avalon, NJ
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| WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idiot: It is convenient. WiFi access is nice. It may even be advantageous to improving business development. But a "fundamental right"? Let's get real - it isn't food or shelter, or the right to a fair trial. And free WiFi has even a lower claim to being a right than does internet access. Mayor Newsom has to be one of the most limelight seeking mayors in the US.
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bokamba
Chengdu Rocks
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Falls Church, VA | Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio I am with you all the way. What an idiot. | |
| | noone1
join:2004-06-04
Nashua, NH | "It is to me a fundamental right to have access universally to information," stated the mayor, who added the project was "a civil rights issue as much as anything else."
What else can you expect from an extremist. | |
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Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting
| Looks like "Retire Rich" has a new name, but the same Conservative pro-free market rhetoric.
Internet access is very quickly becoming a necessity for productivity, particularly in the San Francisco area. The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit.
I'm sure the fact he's a Democrat doesn't hurt Rich's dislike much, either.
Is a man an "idiot" for suggesting access to the most revolutionary technology in the history of man should be a right? Is he really? I might suggest it's actually rather visionary. | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
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join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idiot: said by Minister  :Is a man an "idiot" for suggesting access to the most revolutionary technology in the history of man should be a right? Is he really? I might suggest it's actually rather visionary. Yes he's an idiot. 
Yes he REALLY is. 
If that's visionary, then I suggest the idiot needs glasses, or maybe a seeing-eye dog.
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Omega :Even basic utilities are not "rights." You still have to pay for electricity, water and phone service. Well they basically tried that in CA before with electricity (misnamed it "deregulation"), and they ran shortages. Of course no one saw that coming like a freight train horns-a-blaring.
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Combat Chuck
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Erie, PA
1 edit | said by Minister :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; a roll that is totally bypassed once the government decides something that is not a right is and then uses that to play to the publics emotions instead of their brains. Ohh the poor have to get up off their arses to go to the library to get access while the rich sit in their castles hording the broadband, their being oppressed!!
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
 ·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Combat Chuck :said by Minister :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; a roll that is totally bypassed once the government decides something that is not a right is and then uses that to play to the publics emotions instead of their brains. Ohh the poor have to get up off their arses to go to the library to get access while the rich sit in their castles hording the broadband, their being oppressed!! You wouldn't know economic theory and its relation to quality of living if it bit you in the ass and fed you breakfast. Your criteria is HSI and a car with gas to make it to the library, while someone else may simply want a warm room this winter AND their medicine while working 40 hours, check to check.
You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue; you're simply rehashing Social Darwinism under the guise of corporate/political dogma. It is currently not the have-nots that hate, Sir, it is the haves that hate those without. Virtue has no price; perhaps that's why you've none.
If you're so sure of your understanding of the relationship between economics (in this case capitalism) and the quality of living it provides, please explain for us how a world economic superpower (that also happens to be one of the most religious industrialized nations in the world) has nearly the highest infant mortality rate within the same class of nations?
You can't.
Why not? Because your theory of economics and any "increased standard of living" don't belong in the same sentence. Your world view is polluted by an angry and hate-filled intolerant rhetoric: intolerance for those that have less and hatred for those that want to help those with less attain more. Whether this is born of self loathing or ignorance is up to the reader. The only thing you give freely is your indignation towards any level of indigence.
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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Erie, PA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Titus Pullo :You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue. Sigh, if only scientists looked at everything with the level of emotion you fools looked at everything we would have all starved to death long ago worrying about the suffering of wheat.
I'd love to know how the belief that profits, as a reward for those who do more with less, therefore lowering the costs of living (Hyundai anyone?) and losses, as the door hitting those who haven't on the ass on the way out, is intolerant. It's not, that's just your way of keeping people from taking a step back and looking at the situation from a realistic (ie: not emotional) standpoint.
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Combat Chuck :said by Titus Pullo :You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue. Sigh, if only scientists looked at everything with the level of emotion you fools looked at everything we would have all starved to death long ago worrying about the suffering of wheat. I'd love to know how the belief that profits, as a reward for those who do more with less, therefore lowering the costs of living (Hyundai anyone?) and losses, as the door hitting those who haven't on the ass on the way out, is intolerant. It's not, that's just your way of keeping people from taking a step back and looking at the situation from a realistic (ie: not emotional) standpoint. This is your response? and to only 1/20 of my post?
You just keep hittin 'em out of the park. Don't you, Chuck?
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John Galt
Forward, March
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Happy Camp
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| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Titus Pullo :This is your response? and to only 1/20 of my post? You just keep hittin 'em out of the park. Don't you, Chuck? He knows a troll when he sees one...
No point wasting time, effort and energy on a zealot.
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| said by Titus Pullo :... please explain for us how [the US] has nearly the highest infant mortality rate within the same class of nations? The key to your misleading question is your inclusion of "the same class of nations" as a qualifier. If you really want to compare economics, compare those nations with established capitalist societies with those nations that depend on other economic theory--and I include corruption as a theory, so don't discount it. If you have a specific point to make about the US within its "class", you need to be more explicit and less verbose in making it.
said by Titus Pullo :hatred for those that want to help those with less attain more. Let me ask you this: Which party profits more by having a large underclass that votes reliably for the Democratic party? I mean, let's face it--if half of the "have nots" got enough to be "have somethings" then they would become taxpayers and some of them would probably vote Republican--much to the distress of the Democratic party. So much better instead to make sure they are fully dependent on government largess and will vote reliably for the party which encourages government dependence.
calvoiper
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio There's nothing misleading about the question. Here, I'll make it as concise as I can.
Take any industrialized nation in the world today and compare their infant mortality rate with that of the USA. I don't need economics, political systems or anything else; just the numbers will do.
How then, does one answer why the sole superpower has higher rates than many of the other nations? Is that a "Culture of Life?" Or is it closer to a culture of growing intolerance? It's simply that simple.
Your question is piffle. No one benefits from carrying a large underclass. Look at what we're borrowing from the Chinese now to clean up NOLA. Next you'll tell us that the liberal left opposes any and all measures designed to help the poor that the republicans support. Liberals keep pushing for minimum wage increases and republicans keep telling us it will stifle growth, yet every increase in modern history has done nothing to slow growth.
Both parties are captive to corporatism, but I truly believe one is more likely to leave crumbs on the table than the other.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio Actually, there's a good argument to be made that our "culture of tolerance" is to blame for infant mortality--specifically tolerance of drug use and tolerance of pre-natal abuse.
You talk about "help" for the poor the same way a drug addict talks about "help" for his withdrawal--please give me something to increase my dependence.
Finally, if you so reject our economic system as to only support the party that leaves more "crumbs" on the table, I doubt that we are even talking about the same things as goals. I don't want to see people eating crumbs, I want them to be eating bread--but I want them to have a choice of bread, and I'm not willing to give that up just so you and your pseudo-idealistic cronies can run the bakery and make only the kind of bread you like.
calvoiper
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio You're not answering the question. I'm not arguing economic systems - I'm talking about how we treat human beings. How old are you?
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you?
What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause.
I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant."
Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion.
calvoiper
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by calvoiper :Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you? What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause. I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant." Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion. calvoiper Age goes to perspective, and there's really only one answer to the question. If you can't figure it out, then I'm sorry, but I can give you a clue -- Forget systems and focus on means.
I know the particulars, and you provide a few good examples.
Now, if you care to, answer the question at its root and tell us why we tolerate - to use your term - high infant mortality when we clearly have the means to reduce it significantly.
Please understand this: I don't advocate anything by asking this question. I don't advocate a welfare state, Marxism, or any other hideous thing you can imagine. I'm asking a simple question that requires a root cause. No one needs a textbook explanation. Ones conscience should suffice.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio All right, since you're making me stab at your thrice rephrased question in the dark,...
We tolerate a higher infant mortality in the US because "civil libertarians" believe that it is inappropriate to force proper pre-natal care on unwilling mothers. In particular, we cannot legally force a pregnant drug-addicted female into a secure facility. We cannot force pregnant females to stop smoking, or to make and keep clinic appointments.
This is beginning to sound like the tired old refrain about how Regan supposedly closed mental health facilities and dumped mentally handicapped people on the street. What really happened was that the dear liberal courts said that you cannot confine a mentally deranged person unless they "are an immediate threat to themselves or others", so scores, if not hundreds, of thousands of mentally ill people signed themselves out to live on the street. The institutions were closed because they were empty, not because anyone wanted to dump people in the gutter.
You haven't answered my question about age, but perhaps we're circling Mark Twain's quote about how if a man isn't a liberal at 16 he has no heart and if he isn't a conservative at 40 he has no mind. After you share your age, perhaps you'll tell us which government agency or liberal do-good "non-profit" you work for....
calvoiper
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio The answer is that we now tolerate obscene levels of poverty for the richest nation on earth, which leads to many of our social ills. The problem today is that the gap between rich and poor is reaching critical mass.
I just ran across this article today while surfing:
»news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6
Which contains such tidbits as:
"Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total."
Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree.
Another snippet from the link:
U.S. POVERTY WORST IN INDUSTRIALISED WORLD
"Every August, we Americans tell ourselves a lie," said David Brady, a Duke University professor who studies poverty.
"The poverty rate was designed to undercount because the government wanted to show progress in the war on poverty."
"Taking everything into account, the real rate is around 18 percent, or 48 million people. Poverty in the United States is more widespread, by far, than in any other industrialized country."
Poverty is a universal problem, as is inequality. The world's 500 richest people, according to U.N. statistics, have as much income as the world's poorest 416 million. Yes, that's 500/416,000,000. If someone doesn't see the problems inherent to such a skewed statistic, I daresay they're in an alternate reality.
I can think of no plausible excuse for such obscenity. We live in a world that has created a milieu of pure greed with class systems that encourage intolerance and indifference in order to divide and conquer. Such a state of existence is unsustainable, as history has shown us time and time again.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
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Avalon, NJ
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| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by Titus Pullo :» news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6Which contains such tidbits as: "Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total." Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree. Which also, intersetingly enough, matches how many illegal immigrants have flooded into the US.
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by GOLFnSUN :said by Titus Pullo :» news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6Which contains such tidbits as: "Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total." Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree. Which also, intersetingly enough, matches how many illegal immigrants have flooded into the US. So you're saying illegals are included in the data and that illegal aliens (not black Americans) are the predominant source for the increase in US infant mortality since 2000? I'd appreciate a citation or a link to back up that assertion, if you'd be so kind.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
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join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| "Let those who complain that too much money is being spent on abstract knowledge while people are starving remember this:
The alternative to knowledge is savagery. Their very existence as stowaways on the voyage of civilization is owing to advances in science which permit some to live without doing their share of the work. Let them be tolerant, then, lest by encumbering the useful ones they destroy the thing which keeps them alive." -- George Ellery Hale
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by John Galt :My personal preference would be to give them a full-on Demerol push and send them off to their happiness. But that is not "socially acceptable" now, is it? Not only is it not "socially acceptable," its also not "morally acceptable." What happens to those people later in life from any number of diseases and illnesses to things like mental illness is going to be their sentence... And they will have no one to blame but themselves.
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John Galt
Forward, March
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Happy Camp
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| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by bmn :And they will have no one to blame but themselves. The reality is that everyone else ends up getting the blame...
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio said by John Galt :said by bmn :And they will have no one to blame but themselves. The reality is that everyone else ends up getting the blame... Well, with phenomenon like addiction, where cultural, societal and environmental issues also play a role, its much easier to blame other people than to take responsibility. That's never going to change.
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| | | | | | | | | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
 ·ViaTalk
| said by John Galt :[ Why do I know this? Because I spent 10 years at the business end of an autopsy scalpel doing post-mortem exams on dead babies. I think technically it was the corpse that was on the business end of the scalpel. All a question of perspective, I suppose.  | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| said by John Galt :My personal preference would be to give them a full-on Demerol push and send them off to their happiness. But that is not "socially acceptable" now, is it? I'd probably be accused of killing a Liberal... You don't have to be that harsh, simply forcibly sterilize their sorry asses. The men as well as the women. Of course the Left and empathy fascists would shit themselves blind over that. 
Of course it WOULD have the desired affect of reducing infant mortality. But then if you want an omelet you have to break eggs. That's hard on the egg, and hurts the hen's feelings, but then, so what?
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| | | | bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by Combat Chuck :said by Minister :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; Both views are overly-simplistic and childish views economics because both views ignore the weaknesses of their paradigms...
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio Then again, one could consider the relevant success and/or failure of the economics of capitalism and socialism as practiced by two resource rich nations (the US and the USSR) and their respective NATO and Warsaw Pact followers.
That would, of course, confuse the theorists with the results of actual implementation.
calvoiper
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Topmounter
Sent By Grocery Clerks
join:2001-02-20
Evergreen, CO
·Cox HSI
| It is not a "right", providing wireless internet access is not "free", it doesn't magically appear.
The next logical step is that owning a laptop will be a "right" so they can take advantage of their "right" to wireless internet access.
Then SF will be required by the courts to distribute "free" laptops to everyone so they can enjoy their "right" to wireless internet access.
Of course to run those laptops, the "right" to 120V power will be mandated and the city will be installing 120V power outlets at every street corner and alley in the city.
If you want access to "the most revolutionary technology in the history of man" and don't want to pay to provide or use it, then go to the public library.
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Jehu
Premium
join:2002-09-13
MA | yep, idiot.
Why are you flaming someone who has not even posted here???
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by Minister :Is a man an "idiot" for suggesting access to the most revolutionary technology in the history of man should be a right? Wifi is the most revolutionary technology in the history of man? That's a little bit of an overstatement if I've ever heard of one. Is Wifi also more popular than Jesus, Mohamed, Shiva and Buddha combined?
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John Galt
Forward, March
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Happy Camp
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| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idiot: said by pnh102 :Is Wifi also more popular than Jesus, Mohamed, Shiva and Buddha combined? On this site it is...!
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idiot: Not that I agree with the original poster's premise, but I believe he was speaking of the Internet as the "most revolutionary technology," and WiFi was the "access" to it.
At least it reads less crazy that way.
calvoiper
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| | aurora00
join:2005-01-27
San Francisco, CA
1 edit | Please use a little bit judgment before you fire a posting calling other people idiot. The quote says a fundamental right to have access universally to information. Wireless is of course just a mean, not the right per se. | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
| dfinn6230
join:2004-09-19
Cary, NC | Way to go SF! I'm with you all the way! Information access is a fundamental right (as in Freedom of Information Act). The poor and the rich should have the same access. Compare this position to that of China. | |
| RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Right.... I wonder if he is going to furnish free laptops to all the street people to empower them? Note: last time I was in The City was 1986, lots of street people then.
While I like the idea of the network (I wonder when the established monopolies are going to sue for unfair competition), calling it a 'right' is nothing more than a political ploy. What do you think we pay the libraries for? That is where I go when I do not have connection, of course from a fiscally responsible standpoint, I can not afford a laptop to lug around either.
And who is going to pay for it? At least Lompoc has a fee schedule set up, which would make a lie to his 'fundamental right of all citizens' statement.
As far as a universal right to information Mr. Newsom, have you noticed that many of the really good information sites are going to a pay for information mode (at least ones I use to use)?
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD
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| Re: Right.... said by RayW :I wonder if he is going to furnish free laptops to all the street people to empower them? Note: last time I was in The City was 1986, lots of street people then. I was in the city last month. There are lots of street people now.
said by RayW :And who is going to pay for it? <bad joke>
The city can pay for it by selling same-sex marriage licenses!
</bad joke>
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
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join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| Don't Forget...... Don't forget this is the same Liberal Idiot who got his ass handed to him by members of his own party for his Gay Marriage fiasco.
What do you expect? Logic? Critical rational thinking? Not in the People's Republik of San Franciso in the People's Republik of Kailfornia.
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| | | | | HawkI911
join:2002-04-08
San Antonio, TX | Re: Don't Forget...... "Don't hate on cali you pos hick"
do we need to translate these conversations into ebonics for you? | |
| | bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
1 edit | said by qdemn7 :What do you expect? Logic? Critical rational thinking? Not in the People's Republik of San Franciso in the People's Republik of Kailfornia. As if Republicans and conservatives were any better with logic and critical thinking than this guy... They aren't. Logic, critical thinking went out of politics decades ago, regardless of whether its a Democrat or a Republican.
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: Don't Forget...... said by bmn :As if Republicans and conservatives were any better with logic and critical thinking than this guy... They aren't. Logic, critical thinking went out of politics decades ago, regardless of whether its a Democrat or a Republican. You'll notice he said nothing about republicans, nor democrats.
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: Don't Forget...... said by Combat Chuck :You'll notice he said nothing about republicans, nor democrats. No, but the implication in the post is that liberals and Democrats lack the ability to use critical thinking and logic.
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NJBlackBerry
join:2003-01-03
Bridgewater, NJ
1 edit | It's good to see That San Francisco has taken care of all of the other big city problems and has now declared a war on lack-of-wireless. What a publicity stunt. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: It's good to see said by NJBlackBerry :That San Francisco has taken care of all of the other big city problems and has now declared a war on lack-of-wireless. You mean "linksys" doesn't provide free wireless Internet service there already?
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008! | |
| JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL
| Said like a true liberal. No wonder they love him other there. A civil right issue? I guess we better break out in song right now. "WE SHALL OVER COME"
Let me get this straight . San Fran is slowly becoming a childless city, its schools are in danger of closing up due to lack of children,city taxes are sky high,housing is incredibly overpriced and bums are all over the place but its priorities is making sure everyone has wifi. NIce. | |
| gpancner
join:2001-09-27
Nine Mile Falls, WA | firearms vs. wi-fi basic right Wi-fi a "basic right"? If your not a criminal, don't bother owning a firearm in San Francisco. The second amendment doesn't apply. | |
| | noone1
join:2004-06-04
Nashua, NH
| Re: firearms vs. wi-fi basic right said by gpancner :Wi-fi a "basic right"? If your not a criminal, don't bother owning a firearm in San Francisco. The second amendment doesn't apply. For any extremists (Like this mayor as one example), what they consider rights are only those that fall within their narrow mid set. The broader set of true rights, as outlined in the constitution, are considered outdated and worthless in their world order. I am sure the 2nd is not the only true right the extremists ignore. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: firearms vs. wi-fi basic right said by noone1 :For any extremists (Like this mayor as one example), what they consider rights are only those that fall within their narrow mid set. Or whatever gets them the most votes. Alexis de Toqueville was indeed correct when he said the death of democracy would occur when politicians give away the public treasury. It seems the goal of most left-wing extremists today is to create as many dependent people as possible so that they will get their votes.
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008! | |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: firearms vs. wi-fi basic right said by pnh102 :said by noone1 :For any extremists (Like this mayor as one example), what they consider rights are only those that fall within their narrow mid set. Or whatever gets them the most votes. Alexis de Toqueville was indeed correct when he said the death of democracy would occur when politicians give away the public treasury. It seems the goal of most left-wing extremists today is to create as many dependent people as possible so that they will get their votes. And who has controlled the nation's purse strings for the past 5 years - going from a surplus to unthinkable debt?
Death of democracy? Perhaps so. Liberals at the wheel? Better check who's been in charge, chief. The House, in case you didn't know, controls spending; moreover, Mr Bush has yet to veto a single spending measure.
Think on it for awhile. And before the hate labels come out, I'm a registered independent. So stuff your empty "commie" rhetoric back in Chucky Cheese's bag.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: firearms vs. wi-fi basic right said by Titus Pullo :And who has controlled the nation's purse strings for the past 5 years - going from a surplus to unthinkable debt? Aside from the fact that "Blaming Bush" has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, I must state that you are absolutely right. We are spending more on entitlements than ever before. I agree with you wholeheartedly that Bush and the Republicans should cut out every single cent of entitlement spending to restore fiscal sanity to the government.
said by Titus Pullo :Liberals at the wheel? Better check who's been in charge, chief. Last I checked, Mayor Gavin Newsom is a liberal Democrat. Unless you know something I do not, neither President Bush, Congress, the Supreme Court, or any other federal agency can tell Mayor Newsom that he cannot do this. He is accountable only to the people of San Francisco.
said by Titus Pullo : The House, in case you didn't know, controls spending; moreover, Mr Bush has yet to veto a single spending measure. Not in the city of San Francisco it does not. Again, just because we aren't mentioning the fact that the Federal government is wasting money right and left doesn't mean we cannot point out that the City of San Francisco isn't doing the same thing. If you Leftists want to reinvent yourselves as the "Party of Fiscal Sanity" then the very least you people can do is to act the part by not supporting more entitlement spending at the areas of government that you do control.
said by Titus Pullo :And before the hate labels come out, I'm a registered independent. So stuff your empty "commie" rhetoric back in Chucky Cheese's bag. Sure you are. That's what every closet liberal describes him or her self as when attacking the President. The first thing you people do is "hide" under the cloak of "non-partisanship."
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008! | |
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captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC | So what's next? If wireless internet is a "Basic Right", then I guess every household in San Fran should have either a laptop with wireless capability, or a desktop with wireless..... Gotta be able to RECEIVE the info right?
How foolish. | |
| 
timetowakeup
@12.173.x.x
| With such a distroted view of what constitutes... "civil rights", it's no wonder the U.S. has as many social problems as it does! I would think having a place to live, food to eat, a job, basic education, etc. would be a Helleva lot higher on the list of priorities than Wi-Fi. I doubt people without a PC give a Rat's Azz about Wi-Fi but they care about having fire, police, and basic city services. It's simply amazing that some public officials are so removed from reality that they haven't got a clue. | |
| | Jamuka
join:2005-06-06
| Re: With such a distroted view of what constitutes This is all true, but in their eyes it includes all that and more. Having police, fire, water, electricity, an education, health care, American citizenship, etc.
Next will be owning a house, a car, making X dollars a year, you name it, they believe all this eventually should be a "right".
Add to this list what you envision as a "right" or think they might. Remember, there are no limits because its simply what you can think of and see what other people have that some don't. | |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: With such a distroted view of what constitutes said by Jamuka :This is all true, but in their eyes it includes all that and more. Having police, fire, water, electricity, an education, health care, American citizenship, etc. Next will be owning a house, a car, making X dollars a year, you name it, they believe all this eventually should be a "right". Add to this list what you envision as a "right" or think they might. Remember, there are no limits because its simply what you can think of and see what other people have that some don't. While I don't believe the good mayor has his thinking cap on very straight, the outcome of these muni debate threads has become painfully obvious: it exposes how socially dysfunctional this republic has become concerning its future direction.
Everyone is so full of hate and revels in playing the entitlement card. The goal, of course, is to turn any word pertaining to entitlement into a pejorative. Which, if recent political history is any indicator, will prove successful beyond their wildest dreams. Rope salesmen: selling the very rope that will be used to hang themselves one day.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: With such a distroted view of what constitutes said by Titus Pullo :Everyone is so full of hate and revels in playing the entitlement card. The goal, of course, is to turn any word pertaining to entitlement into a pejorative. I like that idea. Most people who are on the receiving end of entitlements should be ashamed that they are living off of the backs of those of us who work. I welcome any measure which emboldens this idea.
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008! | |
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richardpor
Fur it up
join:2003-04-19
Portland, OR
| No Basic Right Mr. Gavin is wrong about "fundamental right to have access universally to information" If this is true I have a right to see Mr. Gavin's Credit, Banking and Medical Records.
Rights are immaterial by nature, a person has a right to free speech but does not have a right demand me to purchase the person a sound system in support of a persons right to free speech.
This does put a face on the muni WI-FI debate. Muni WI-FI is about the liberals hate of Capitalism. | |
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obiwan
Your No Jedi
Premium
join:2003-01-19
Stockton, CA | Re: No Basic Right He's a tool, of course look at what he is the mayor of. | |
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badtrip
East Bay
Premium
join:2004-03-20
Albany, CA
·Unwired Ltd
·Comcast
| Although I agree that free wifi isn't a right as the idea of rights are normally defined, I do believe that internet access should be cheap enough for everyone to have at the very least. Ideally, it should be free.
Now when I say internet access should be free I don't necessarily mean a 4 megabit pipe up and down for every man, woman and child, I mean low bandwidth, maybe ~ISDN speed, enough to stream low-quality video. Wifi makes this option cheaper than a regular wired connection on large scales. If ppl want to play BF2 with 10 ms pings or download at some crazy speed, then they could pay for a better connection.
The internet is, IMO, one of the most valuable resources we as humans have at our disposal. The educational benefits alone are too many and profound to discuss here but allow me to offer one thought: a cheap (or free) college level education for everyone.
Of course this is coming from "some wacko lefty" living in "The People's Republic of Berkeley" who thinks that basic shelter, clothing, food and secondary education should also be free and accessible for everyone who lives in the richest (and IMO, the greatest) nation on the planet. | |
| | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by richardpor :Mr. Gavin is wrong about "fundamental right to have access universally to information" If this is true I have a right to see Mr. Gavin's Credit, Banking and Medical Records. No, because he has the right to control access to his information because its not public information.
Access to publically available information is a right, however, that does not mean people have a right to the means to access that information mean that people don't have a right to Wi-Fi or DSL or a cable modem or a laptop.
This does put a face on the muni WI-FI debate. Muni WI-FI is about the liberals hate of Capitalism. Yeah, every thing basically boils down to "liberals hate of capitalism." You have to love such myopic and politically motivate reasoning.
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| dslgold22
join:2004-06-28
San Jose, CA
1 edit | Typical SF rhetoric Yeah, this doesn't surprise me. SF is one of the most bizarre places I've visited in the United States (I've been to all but two NFL cities). BTW -- Newsom comes from "old" money and is loaded.
While at a formal event in SF earlier this year, I actually met the mayor. Quite an individual. He has that "Clinton-esque" presence about him and is a confident, good-looking guy. Every woman in the place just about lost it when he appeared. I asked my date what it was about him and -- after she re-composed herself after meeting him -- she said it was the combination of looks, power and money.
Back to the point - if I was a resident of SF, I'd be more concerned about basic infrastructure problems there rather than free wireless access. | |
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steelgaze
Premium
join:2002-02-01
San Francisco, CA
clubs:
| Re: Typical SF rhetoric I kinda agree, but then again I think our mayor says all kind of crazy things .. sorta like everyone else's mayors but in a different way.
IMO there really isn't anything to see here since he's just trying to self-promote himself though making revolutionary changes. (Sorta like how he was all opposed to the "Terminator" vetoing the amending the marriage bill, but I don't have anything against gays, just pointing out the example.) I don't see having internet access as a right but I'd like to see fast cheaper prices.
I do agree he does have pretty good looks, he's supposedly the youngest mayor of SF. Something about that combed back hair don'tcha think? :P
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The first anime convention in San Francisco. | |
| | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus | Re: Whatever... Here's another SF hotspot listing that is useful...
»www.archive.org/web/sflan.php
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | What politcal courage Wow what political courage now we have "The Newsom Doctrine". With Google installing city wide WiFi
the mayor can have his cake and eat it to. The next great movement Blackberrys for Bums. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: What politcal courage said by Transmaster :The next great movement Blackberrys for Bums. I'm patiently waiting for a picture...
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Disgusting It is pathetic how the flaming Left in this country has confused the term "right" and "entitlement." Sure, everyone has a "right" to Wifi. There is nothing stopping you from working, earning some money and buying the needed tools yourself. Its no different than there being a right to free speech and free press. Does this mean the government is required to provide you with the means to exercise those rights? Of course not.
Some other posters here have mentioned guns. Under Mayor Newsom's reasoning, the right to gun ownership requires that the government give free guns out to everyone.
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Rove / Rumsfeld 2008! | |
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See 16 replies to this post | |
HardwareGeek
join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY
| Liberal city with Censored Internet 10 bucks a lot of people will avoid the free city wi-fi because it will be censored. No adult sites, no warez sites. You will see.
I also feel bad for the Residents of San Fran their economy is going to take a HIT and their yearly city budget will increase.
ACLU will sue, the Mothers against Porn will sue the horny bastard pedo club will sue for San Fran to censor certain sites then un-censor those sites they will be locked in the courts for years. And who knows the free wi-fi might be there but unusable.
People hear free and jump for joy. But hey I rather pay 50 dollars a month for the INTERNET than 0 dollars a month for what san fran will offer.
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Email/MSN: Michael at hardwaregeeks.comAIM: MikeR35292 | |
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xdeadhead
220, 221, Whatever It Takes.
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Mechanicsburg, PA | the mayor couldnt be more wrong. | |
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johnt
join:2002-09-13
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Wow.... I think that we have strayed a little off topic with the discussions of liberals vs. conservatives.....
If anyone really looks at it, neither party is without faults. Both parties take kick backs. Both parties are supported by PACs and other organizations to further their own goals. Big government is bad..... BLAH. Let us all agree to disagree on this topic - and perhaps open up a new forum topic elsewhere.
Back on topic - is WiFi a right? I don't think I can agree with this. Even in Socialist countries I can't think of any that state that WiFi is a fundamental right and are providing it to their citizens. It is nice to have but you will live and survive without it. I know some people think that giving this access to the masses will help usher in a new utopia... but let us be realistic about this - how are most people going to access the network? Even if the service was free, if they are to poor to have a computer then where does that leave them?
What about the library's that have spent money to provide free access to computers that ARE connected to the internet? At least in this model - more people have access. In the WiFi example the only people to benefit are those that have WiFi enabled devices - in other words people that can already afford to pay for the service. So why take tax money away from other services to build this? Personally - I would love to have FREE WiFi access in my city. But really - who is it going to benefit?
Not trying to start or add to any flames. Just trying to stay on the original topic. Thanks for my moment on the floor. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wow.... said by johnt :I think that we have strayed a little off topic with the discussions of liberals vs. conservatives..... It's kinda like a car wreck...you know you shouldn't look...but you do anyway.
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A is A | |
| biteman
join:2001-02-02
Grand Rapids, MI
| wmarkhall Would you answer one question about the original subject? I believe it's a right to have access to the information BUT what most of the people in this thread is trying to say is not using the PUBLIC library sufficient to accommodate this right to the information on the internet? If not why? | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Rights aside, look at the result.... (I'm kinda "results oriented" today....)
All the talk about the "rights" hype aside, let's look at what the Mayor DID:
He asked for proposals to provide Internet access citywide.
And let's look at what the Mayor GOT:
He got at least one proposal to provide FREE WiFi access.
Kinda reminds me of advice from an old corporate pro: "If you don't ask, you're not going to get it. And you shouldn't be criticized for asking."
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | dslgold22
join:2004-06-28
San Jose, CA
| Re: Rights aside, look at the result.... Good point -- he did end up with a "Free" proposal. I guess the thing is to whom is it free? The taxpayer or the end user? Or, will Google just crush the user with ads?
Also, cheap, basic Internet access already exists. It's called dialup and is available from companies like PeoplePC and United Online. Sure, it's 56Kbps but it works just fine and (only in my opinion) if someone cannot spend $10/month to support their own Internet usage, well, then maybe they need to reexamine their priorities and lifestyle. If you can't afford a phone on which to use that dialup service, walk to the library or anyone of a number of places with taxpayer-funded, free, wired access. Oh, virutally all California unemployment offices have this service today. Kill two birds with one stone.
If I was a taxpayer in San Francisco and Newsom pushed this through I'd be pretty upset that he didn't use the money for other things to improve the quality of life in a deteriorating city. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Rights aside, look at the result.... From the underlying Reuters article:
" 'My intent is to have the taxpayers pay little or nothing,' Newsom said of the municipal wireless project."
He's on record as saying this shouldn't be tax funded. Now WHY should taxpayers be upset?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | | dslgold22
join:2004-06-28
San Jose, CA | Re: Rights aside, look at the result.... calvoiper - thank you for the clarification. I missed that part and agree that if the startup and operating costs of this Free Muni wireless network are zero, then let him knock himself out. | |
| cgw123
join:2002-09-13
Moraga, CA
| strange reactionaries Many of the posts view the proposal as radical. Actually, it seems to be a logical extension of the idea that all Americans deserve to have mail, including people who live where it is expensive to deliver (remember Rural Free Delivery - this seems at least as radical as free wifi). If you read the history of the US Postal Service, it was seen as an important part of unifying the original colonies. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: strange reactionaries Indeed. The Constitution refers to "Post Roads", meaning highways for carrying the mail--a concept which has evolved into the federal Dept. of Transportation.
A friend from the rural Midwest told me yesterday that conversation at the local pump-N-puke has shifted from the price of beans and corn to who's getting 256K and who's getting 512K from the newest (there's THREE!) local wireless provider. In part, this is driven by a local populace hungry for broadband (little DSL or Cable penetration) and a culture where towns are willing to rent out the tops of their water towers and folks don't run around with tinfoil in their hats screaming about electro-magnetic radiation hazards.
It's kinda fun to watch, he says.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Zuhaib
King Of Fools
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2000-06-29
San Francisco, CA
clubs:
| Anyone wants some property in SF? I am selling my house, any bidders?
Ugg, more taxes for this stupid project. I love the idea of free wi-fi and i would use it, BUT, its not worth my tax money. There is already a large number of Hot Spots from people who make it free or unsecure wifi, let us just piggy back on them.
And i bet the system will only be in downtown, all us that dont live in downtown will get nothing. Bleh.
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I am Pakistani And No! I do not own a 7/11! And my NAME is not Apu! | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Anyone wants some property in SF? First, I'll repeat myself:
From the underlying Reuters article:
" 'My intent is to have the taxpayers pay little or nothing,' Newsom said of the municipal wireless project."
He's on record as saying this shouldn't be tax funded. Now WHY should taxpayers be upset?
Second, I'll say that the fact that you're from SF makes it that much more inexcusable--the local media have repeatedly mentioned that the Mayor intends not to spend tax money on this project.
(I'll agree your SF property is overtaxed--but it has been for a long time, probably including when you bought it.)
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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tacoma
Bleeding Dodger Blue
Premium
join:2001-05-18
Riverside, CA | Re: Anyone wants some property in SF? 'intent' is the keyword here.
It's not the results that matter it's the 'intent' or thought that matters.
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Anyone wants some property in SF? Normally, I'd certainly agree, especially in SF. However, with one totally "free" proposal on the table, there will be hell to pay if taxes end up supporting this.
Elsewhere, despite the hopes and wishes of the whining Baby Bells, muni projects seem to be doing pretty well.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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San Fran Mayor: Wireless a Basic Right
