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story category Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began
UK ISP, BBC debate highlights where dispute originated...
04:39PM Friday Apr 04 2008 by Karl
tags: competition · business · bandwidth · Op/Ed · trouble · world · content · networking · net-neutrality · caps · TekSavvy Solutions Inc. · Virgin.Net
Around the world, the planet's largest ISPs have been whining. They've been whining about how the dropping cost of bandwidth & hardware, their significant profit margins, and abundant new revenue streams (advertising via webmail, BVAS, selling your clickstream data, DNS Redirection revenue, charging to get around spam filters, targeted behavioral advertising) make it hard for a poor, cash-strapped telecom conglomerate to build out enough capacity to handle user demand.

In the UK, ISPs have been complaining for a year that the BBC's new media player actually uses bandwidth, so they've tried to argue the BBC should subsidize their network expansion.

Click for full size
This kind of logic was what started the entire "network neutrality" debate in the U.S. In 2005, then-AT&T CEO Ed Whitacre told Business Week that because people use Google, Google should help pay for AT&T's network deployment (or as Ed put it, Google ain't usin' his pipes for free). In short, ISP executives want to please investors by offloading necessary video-driven upgrade expenses on to others.

In the UK, ISPs have been demanding the BBC either subsidizes their network builds via a "congestion charge," or ISPs will start throttling iPlayer traffic. The BBC this week responded by saying content operators should name and shame any ISP that uses traffic shaping to restrict content. Says the BBC's director of future media and technology, Ashley Highfield:
I would not suggest that ISPs start to try and charge content providers. They are already charging their customers for broadband to receive any content they want....Content providers, if they find their content being specifically squeezed, shaped, or capped, could start to indicate on their sites which ISPs their content worked best on (and which to avoid).
Of course that only works if there's competition. In truly competitive markets, any provider who makes their bandwidth less useful would see customer defections to alternative ISPs. That's exactly why users in Canada this week are so angry with Bell Canada's efforts to crush those alternative ISPs who offer un-throttled connectivity. There would be no network neutrality debate if there was real competition in these markets. Users wouldn't allow it.

No matter how hard global incumbent lobbyists and public relations officials may distort it (and do they ever), their goal remains clear: ISP executives in uncompetitive markets, flush with envy over content operator ad income, want to get their hands on this revenue to please investors -- despite already being paid for bandwidth.

It really is that simple. Whether there should be legislation to protect consumers from this digital gold lust is a different argument, but the primary logic that started this debate should not be forgotten or distorted.

Related:
  1. NY Attorney General Investigating Comcast
  2. UK ISPs Whine About People Actually Using Their Product
  3. Bell Canada Fires Up The Spin Doctors
  4. Time Warner Cable To Start Per-Gigabyte Fee Trial On Thursday
  5. CRTC Orders Public Disclosure of Bell Traffic Data
  6. Bell Canada Offers 'Proof' Throttling Was Necessary
  7. Long Awaited Japanese Caps Arrive: 930GB Per Month
  8. Industry Laughs Off Bell Canada Congestion Claims
Forums » Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began

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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs:
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Crazy

If anyone thinks for a moment, sites like the BBC or Google should be paying last mile providers, are just that, crazy...
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240

dr3yec

join:2002-12-19
Oxford, AL

Re: Crazy

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.

TK Junk Mail
Golf season has returned - hurrah
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast

Re: Crazy

said by dr3yec See Profile :

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.
And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL


edit:
April 5th, @09:53AM

Re: Crazy

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
If I were accessing lots of video then sure – why would I mind as long as it was competitive to other means of access?

Many folks are under the impression Internet is some sort of hierarchy with the end user paying the tab. That is not true. Internet is a Mesh where each connection is charged for the cost of delivering bits. Google, YouTube, et al are not getting a free ride any more then I am as a Verizon DSL subscriber.

It is true ISP's assumed residential broadband customers would be light users. As such were able to heavily oversubscribe network keeping cost down. If that model turns out to be inaccurate they will have to revise marketing/engineering goals to bring things back in line so they are profitable.

This really is not about bandwidth consumption it is driven by ISP fears of becoming commodity bandwidth provider. They want to offer "content" (how I hate that word) so most of what customer is buying is access to content rather then raw bandwidth.

Personally I think that approach is doomed to failure. As technology improves there will be more and more creators rather then the few media giants we have today. Network Neutrality is about keeping the Internet open so new entrepreneurs are able to set up shop without having to modify the network or get network owners permission to operate.

/tom
fixed several of typos

gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
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Winterville, NC
clubs:
·Suddenlink
·Cirtex Hosting
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by dr3yec See Profile :

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.
And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
The real question is, why haven't these companies been investing all this time? Why do they all of a sudden need "massive investment"?

These companies picked their own business models. They are the ones who have been sucking on the bandwidth tit, and not making investments. We should feel sorry for them now?

Get real..

And to your $140 a month quip, prices should be going down over time, or service levels should be going up. So far the prices are going up, and for most of us, the level of service is the same, or close to it, and not going up.

If you live in a market like I do, speeds are dismal and prices high, and there isn't much one can do about it.

Bleh is my final word.
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240

Mr Kentucky

@windstream.net

Re: Crazy

said by gatorkram See Profile :

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :
The real question is, why haven't these companies been investing all this time? Why do they all of a sudden need "massive investment"?

These companies picked their own business models. They are the ones who have been sucking on the bandwidth tit, and not making investments. We should feel sorry for them now?
I believe that you bring up a good point. In there business model, with the amount they charge customers monthly I would believe that they would have it set up so they gain profit as well as money to re-invest in there infrastructure. More people would equal more income to invest. At least you would think this.

I think you have a good question.


kamm

join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8

said by gatorkram See Profile :

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by dr3yec See Profile :

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.
And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
The real question is, why haven't these companies been investing all this time? Why do they all of a sudden need "massive investment"?

These companies picked their own business models. They are the ones who have been sucking on the bandwidth tit, and not making investments. We should feel sorry for them now?

Get real..

And to your $140 a month quip, prices should be going down over time, or service levels should be going up. So far the prices are going up, and for most of us, the level of service is the same, or close to it, and not going up.

If you live in a market like I do, speeds are dismal and prices high, and there isn't much one can do about it.

Bleh is my final word.
EXCELLENT POST!
--
Warez_Zealot
Mr. Misanthrope

join:2006-04-19
St Catharines, ON


edit:
April 4th, @08:13PM

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by dr3yec See Profile :

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.
And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
You're thinking the wrong way. North America is an LME market. As a result companies tend to think in the short term. If they acted like a CME they would think of the long term. They would upgrade their networks, not freak out when the stocks *possibly* drop a little, and give it a few years o recover.

Anyhow, look at Verizon. Are they charging $140/mo?

»fp.tm.tue.nl/ecis/papers/Los,%20···aper.pdf

Read this and maybe you will get a different perspective.

To be honest, I think it's time the Governments tax every ISP who ever received a dime of subsidies and use that money to develop better back bones and last km to the customer. Once that is rolled out, they can lease that network to various 3rd party startup who would to customer connections and provide the internet /w their own head end. In Canada we need this since there is literally 1-2 real ISP's in each city (if that).

TScheisskopf
World News Trust

join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

Re: Crazy

Oh, he just throws that FUD out every time this story comes up. It's just part of the scare tactics that are supposed to keep the one-fodder-units shut up.
grandpinaple

join:2006-01-03
New York, NY

Let me illustrate the cycle for you:

Early 20th century government intervention -> Telco wiring monopoly

Late 20th century government intervention in the form of franchise agreements and exclusive MDU deals -> cable monopoly

Telco + fiber + cable = duopoly, which means it isn't hard for the industries to collude on a psychological level and keep prices stable and churn low

Recently there has been some more turbulence between cable and telco, but this is in part due to Martin who is a Telco shill.

Duopoly that provides internet and TV = conflict of interest as TV can go directly through the internet.

Lack of more than 2 competitors in market = easy for internet providers who also have lucrative TV monopolies/duopoly can screw with 3rd party TV traffic over the internet.

Solution = 1) more government intervention to force net neutrality (doomed to failure eventually unless legislation is temporary oh say 20 years until the internet providers are comfortable as being dumb pipes and will be reluctant to go back to the old content provider business model)

Solution = 2) Cable companies and telcos or in other words the EXACT same thing since they both use high bandwidth medium to deliver media services realize that if they push their one way content cartel on the consumer it will backfire either in the form of net neutrality legislation or if they choose not to screw with traffic they will simply be destroyed (as TV providers) by the free market as 3rd party companies start deals with channels like ESPN to offer IP streamed content. I'm not sure how viable this will be as cable companies are still the largest in terms of Voip holdings, but partly because it is difficult to get things fixed when you have multiple companies as each points the finger on the other.

Internet service companies can still make big profits if they just move the charge of cable over to internet and offer tiered services.

Say 400/100 at 140 dollars per month for those who want TV from a 3rd party company (channels will cost next to nothing in this scenario because of vicious competition by IPTV upstarts).

You would still be able to buy cable TV from your cable company.

I think the problem right now might be that cable companies work on the over subscription model and gouge customers, they wouldn't like it if the tables were turned.

kamm

join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by dr3yec See Profile :

Totally agree! It is time that these isp's start upgrading or get out of the business. It the isp's fault for any bandwidth problems. Stop worrying about the shareholder and start worrying about the customer.
And will you be a customer if the monthly cost goes from $40/mo to $140/mo because of all the video flowing thru the system and requiring massive investment in new infrastructure?
Jesus, WTF are you saying here? The markup is already 1000%-1500% on bandwidth!

Stop spreading false BS, ISPs made a LOAD OF MONEY in the last decade, without EVER UNDERTAKING A BIG UPGRADE, they always kept postponing and postponing it, only doing the very essential steps onlyk, solely to please their greed.
--
jc100

join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable

Well since the BBC should subsidize the ISP for a service it is PAID to provide, I have another idea. The ISP should subsidize its users with new computers. After all, since we're paying to use their pipes, we must have adequate hardware to do so. Therefore, it's the ISPS job to ensure (since the BBC and others are paying them similarly), that all users are properly connected. So when will my new pc arrive?
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

Re: Crazy

Or how about ISP's pay content providers for creating the value they collect in their user connections. If there were only ISP content on the internet, how many of you would be subscribers? Really.
jc100

join:2002-04-10

Re: Crazy

Yep. Plus it'd be pretty bias and crappy internet if the ISP was the only one creating places to visit.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·magicjack.com
·Cox HSI
·Skype
·AT&T Southeast

I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

Because in the USA, wouldn't that be violating free speech? Eventually, HSI access will be free or cost little. That is where the Telcos are going due to cellphones. Now, that doesn't mean free license to pirates. I don't think the ISPs are being particularly smart since anyone can knock off anyone eventually. WalMart won't be around forever. A better biz plan will come along and knock them out.

In fact, I think all HSI should be regulated like the Phone companies. Nobody complains when you use your unlimited minutes so the false ads about HSI are the ISPs fault.
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl

RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

You may need a better example. Cellphones = telcos. But I get your point.

What we really need is common carrier status for all Internet connections. Content neutral, take-all-comers, no proprietary or parochial funny business.

As a matter of Constitutional law, an ISP throttling traffic is not a speech issue unless the government is the ISP.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·magicjack.com
·Cox HSI
·Skype
·AT&T Southeast

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

said by RadioDoc See Profile :

As a matter of Constitutional law, an ISP throttling traffic is not a speech issue unless the government is the ISP.
Actually, you're wrong. Cases can be made that access to news, regardless of whom, and information is a Constitutional 1st Amendment issue. It could also be a violation of Interstate Commerce laws, which derive from the Constitution as all Federal Law does.
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl

RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

Wrong. Throttling is not a speech issue. Maybe an interstate commerce issue but not restraint of free speech. But who cares. Certainly nobody here.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

The 1st Amendment only protect you from the government. Any private establishment, or network, can tell you to shut up on their property.

Of course, since networks are built in public land, that begs the question of maybe you're right.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·magicjack.com
·Cox HSI
·Skype
·AT&T Southeast

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

said by Ahrenl See Profile :

The 1st Amendment only protect you from the government. Any private establishment, or network, can tell you to shut up on their property.

Of course, since networks are built in public land, that begs the question of maybe you're right.
Kudos! Someone got it!
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl

RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL

Re: I think Net Neutrality should stick around...

I'd love to see your law degree.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast

Why do those customers continue to subscribe to our service?

The Broadband Internet Service Providers are only interested increasing profits without improving capacity. This is another example of the ISP's take it all philosophy, like only providing service in neighborhoods that will have maximum market penetration in there service area. The ISP's think that if their profits do not continue to increase exponentially someone else should pick up the tab for infrastructure costs that are really the ISP's responsibility. Remember that the broadband business was never the primary purpose of the Telephone or Cable TV industry. It was viewed as an added cash flow source to their basic business plan, that required no new wires. Unless the ISP's begin to treat Broadband Service as a separate business they will never be satisfied with profitability.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

just looking for a handout

when they were phone companies, they accepted regulation, monopoly status, use of public rights of way and probably tax breaks to build out the system.

In return for building out the telephone infrastructure, they were guaranteed a tasty rate of return that made their operators and investors happy. They did not have to risk their own or investors money in the hope of making a profit, they were guaranteed a profit and were allowed to raise rates in some cases (all cases?) to pay for improvements.

now they are deregulated, still monopolies in most cases and still using public rights of way, but they still want customers to take the risk and pay the freight for improvements.

old habits are hard to break and corrupt politicians are a boon to the aggressive business - what else is new?

Ex_Bell_Tech

join:2008-03-16
Trois-Rivieres, QC

Time time time

Only time can change the way all this evolve. In the next few years you'll see a lot of changes.. Please people be patient the future is for us ^^
chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..


edit:
April 5th, @08:58AM

Re: When democracy becomes Democracy

When i was in high school we had a history teacher who taught us some very interesting ideas.
They were as follows and i believe they hold true.
True Communisim cannot succeed nor can true Capitalism.
Both are an extreme and do not look after enough of the peoples needs to be something that can be sustained.
With the more or less death of Soviet style Communism, did you notice that before that , corporations gave us more rights, more freedoms and once that the soviets communist govt was gone , union power was gone, and we have steadily lost rights under capitalistic regimes.
What now strikes me is that i believe that they are reching that peak of sustainability of control , that will now begin its reverse. The generation that feuled this ages and passes on. Now more liberal ideals must take root and the idea of an internet that isnt controled could even be argued as a national security issue on grounds that if BELL 100% controls things if BELL were controled then you lose the communications ability.
People such as myself will if they do this just tune out of the network.
what does that lose you. Well i was and am designing a game i want myself to enjoy. Making it opensource means others can help and even enjoy it. It feels good to give back doesn't it. When did bell give back considering we funded its rise.
And if you htink the of the republican nominee is 70ish and one of the recent bi-elections had a 25% voter turnout , does that mean that MP can represent that riding?
there should be a law that says 66% of a ridings voters must vote or no seat can be had, when that happens these noob politicians might have to do something to get us out to vote.

ive kinda been rolling numbers about on the SAC 5$ proposal for a counter proposal
and i htink ive got something
24.75 million Canadian internet accounts
MUSIC:3$/month -approx 75 mill/month 900millper year
-to be apportioned to song writers,and musicans that have a certian level of downlaods form a central tracker or p2p system.
-donate section like radio head had ( got them 2.5 times what label would have gotten them per unit avg)

MOVIES:5$/month - approx 125 mill/month = 1.5 bill
( to be given like above based on available data regarding
downloading , sales of dvdrs, sales of other venues, thus they get, also you can eliminate distribution costs , and any advertising comes form your own share )
NOTE a portion of this would and could be given directly to canuck films and in fact a certain percent MUST be given.
SOFTWARE:
NON COMMERCIAL USE: FREE
when you commercially use a software you are right now legally supposed to liscense it or face a fine or possible imprisonment.
Think of this way. Person dls the 7000$ autocad, learns how to use it. He/She then buys a liscnese and can use it making his money back.
Why this model for software, because if you have a monthly fee for it you would have to include ALL the opensource softwares and a donation from this monthly to all those and i know the software (proprietary end anyhow) would not wish that. if they do tack 2$ a month
so we have 10$ a month to legalise p2p by a liscensing schema
add 2$ a month for ISP to building netowrk bandwidth capacity that if they take it MUST be used and verified to be on INTERNET FOR END USERS BANDWIDTH. NOT SHAREHOLDERS.
THUS the idea that ISPS have to pay crazy sums to upgrade is now given about 50 mill/month to upgrade or 600MILL/year
and beleive me 6BILL in ten years for a 33 million population country is MASSIVE.
NOW
the next thing to deal with is the price gouging of wireless and cell phones.
ALso while other govts get in gear wiht linux our govt would rather pay MS a 100$ per unit tax
12$ a month
i pay 34 now that would mean 48$ a month for a 200GB 5 megabit account with completely legal use of p2p.
uploading format modding and downlaoding, could even try ones hand at setting up trackers, or p2p systems ( that would generate even more revenues for isps)
this brings a total of 3.5billion max in.

-dont want to legally use p2p
A) traffic shaped , protocol and bandwidth shaped heavily restricted account.
:legal free stuff you have to get via http
:note dont whine about linux you can get all the top linux iso's via http
:increase fines and penalties if you get caught not having the liscnese account.
B) make it mandatory that grama accounts be advertised as well so that people that JUST want to surf webpages and check email can do that ( 1 megabit should suffice)

if we push hard enough we can have a definate differant path then the americans, even warner brothers has looked at my idea and thinks that world wide the idea would get them 20 billion.
If this is done right it might truly end the so called scene
i also beleive that fully 75% of p2p users would be ok with say one commerical in a tv ep
do it right in middle and know we can edit it out so dont get happy that way.
i for one would rather get form the cbc then some nameless person i do not know......
play on that.
get into h264/x264 recoding of xvid's and dvdrs.
a dvdr is usually 3-4gb
a h264 at same res can be about 700meg
xvids are never same res dvdrs

recoding xvid tv is wicked if isps are worried about network bandwidth
get people into this tech
7.5 gb (1 full tv season ) becomes 2 gb
so in that sector you decreased bandwidth of your network a full 66% OH MY, go ahead with xvids and its a 50% decrease
with dvdrs its even bigger 77% decrease in size
the HD dvdrs go from 30+GB to about 8-12GB
as you can see the compression tech is the key

so if htey were serious sneak people around or ask people about it.
release it that way
do versions for ipods and psp's and pcs
music do flac versions and aac

trust me do this and you over night end a feud and war and begin to rake in the cash to everyone and once again entertainment can be about fun ......

ONE other note
the 2$ for isps would also mean that 3rd aprty isps would directly get funds to BUILD up there networks.
and remember x264/h264.avc.aac is the future

Ex_Bell_Tech

join:2008-03-16
Trois-Rivieres, QC

Re: When democracy becomes Democracy

I Like your idea.

If WB takes your Idea, it could be nice to you to have some rewards no ? =)

I like your post =)

gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall

join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet

In 1860

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_ne···#History
History

"In 1860, a US federal law subsidizing a coast-to-coast telegraph line stated that

...messages received from any individual, company, or corporation, or from any telegraph lines connecting with this line at either of its termini, shall be impartially transmitted in the order of their reception, excepting that the dispatches of the government shall have priority.

—An act to facilitate communication between the Atlantic and Pacific states by electric telegraph, June 16, 1860
In 1888, the automatic telephone exchange was created by Almon Brown Strowger who is said to have created it to bypass biased telephone operators who diverted unsuspecting customers to his competitors. This automating created a "neutral" environment that was free from unseen tampering to telephone users."

I don't remember it since I wasn't born yet, but I have read it
--
There is no greater sign of a general decay of virtue in a nation, than a want of zeal in its inhabitants for the good of their country. ~ Joseph Addison
Forums » Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began

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