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story category Powerline Broadband Just Won't Die
IBM and IBEC fuel BPL interest in Wisconsin...
(old news - 04:43PM Monday Apr 27 2009)
tags: competition · business · alternatives · BPL
Last fall, as it appeared that broadband over powerline (BPL) technology was going to die off completely, IBM announced a new partnership with a small outfit called International Broadband Electric Communications, aimed at exploring the use of BPL in rural markets. The announcement came just as two of BPL's highest profile deployments fizzled, and many BPL hardware vendors begin focusing their attention on smart electrical networks instead of broadband delivery.

IBM's sudden interest in BPL came on the heels of largely fruitless investments in the sector by Earthlink and DirecTV, both of whom were hoping for a magic pipe to help them circumnavigate the telco and cable duopoly. Instead of pretending that BPL is a major broadband pipe, IBM and IBEC seem willing to accept that if BPL ever succeeds, it will be a slower speed, niche player in rural markets with the help of smaller, electrical cooperatives.

IBEC currently only serves about 1,400 customers with broadband (if you call symmetrical 256kbps broadband), but with a $9.6 million cash infusion from IBM and $70 million in loans from the government, the company believes they can build a network in two years that will serve 340,000 homes in Alabama, Indiana, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Texas, Virginia, and Wisconsin. IBM has been ramping up their efforts to grab some broadband stimulus funds (who isn't?) and as such, Wisconsin locals are excited, if not entirely clued in on BPL's rocky history:
(IBM) noted that small electric cooperatives such as the Washington Island co-op serve 12 percent of the nation's population but hold 45 percent of its power lines, making them natural partners for a broadband service. It's a way to provide what used to be "nice to have" Internet service to parts of rural Wisconsin where such connections might now be in the "got to have" category for economic development.
Of course the reality has been that many utilities didn't want to jump into the broadband business, where they'd have to do battle with an entrenched duopoly with a vice-like lobbyist grip on U.S. regulators. There's been no shortage of rosy promises on the BPL front, but like the countless outfits before them that have failed, IBEC and IBM need to prove the technology works, that it's profitable, and that it doesn't interfere with ham and emergency radio. Good luck.

Related:
  1. FCC To Nudge BPL Deployment
  2. 2008: The Year Broadband Over Powerline Died
  3. IBM Didn't Get Memo That BPL Is Dead
  4. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  5. Cable Industry: Shucks, Guess Nobody Wants CableCARDs
  6. FCC To Investigate Special Access Pricing
  7. Comcast Internet Video Launching Before Year End
  8. TDS Telecom Launches 50 Mbps Fiber
Forums » Powerline Broadband Just Won't Die
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Post a:
xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast

It would be nice, but...

While I can appreciate the intent and would welcome a third player. Powerlines are not designed for this, and the service does not appear to be able to deliver the necessary speeds to compete.
If rural broadband is the issue why not simply invest this money into some kind of point to point wireless or 3g network.
--
Retaking our country one election at a time.
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

Re: It would be nice, but...

I agree. it would be nice to have and it is a nice idea, but its starting feel like a 'me too!!' and missing the last bus type of technology. I'd rather see the money being used in deploying proven technologies (dsl, cable, fiber, wimax, etc.) or improving existing technologies (no more broadcasting of all channel for CATV which would free an enormous about of , making fiber cheaper/easier to deploy/faster, even dsl, etc.).

with some luck (which i don't see happening), i could easily see BPL bringing much faster speeds to rural markets sooner than later.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

Why try to do broadband on the cheap!

The power companies have the right of way, the poles, the trucks and the personnel to install fiber. Rather than trying to do broadband on the cheap, the government could provide some stimulus money to the power cooperatives to install the necessary equipment and deliver real broadband to rural subscribers. Many years ago I watched the telephone company install about a mile of 200 pair aerial cable a week. The project was part of a project to convert from ten party service to one and two party service. I believe that fiber can be installed much faster.

mrkevin
Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.
Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
clubs:

Re: Why try to do broadband on the cheap!

The power companies don't have the personnel. splicing fiber is not like splicing power lines.
You're right about one thing...It wouldn't be cheap.

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

Re: Why try to do broadband on the cheap!

Is deploying expensive repeaters that use lossy powerlines any cheaper?
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

said by mrkevin See Profile :

The power companies don't have the personnel. splicing fiber is not like splicing power lines.
You're right about one thing...It wouldn't be cheap.
Same style of specialized work/trade, same amount of training, same salary. Being a power company lineman isn't a training video and a 1 week "trial"/intern period, neither is a fiber splicer.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

said by mrkevin See Profile :

The power companies don't have the personnel. splicing fiber is not like splicing power lines.
You're right about one thing...It wouldn't be cheap.
Actually when I started working for a local exchange carrier in the early 80's, most of their technicians did not know how to splice fiber. When the company had a need for fiber splicers, they allowed their technicians to bid for the job, and then go through an assessment to make sure they had the aptitude to be trained do the job. Management then selected the most qualified technicians to send to training.

Power company linemen that have the skill to deal with high voltage lines can be trained to splice fiber and can deal with nodes located in sub stations.

At least with non conductive fiber, the power company will not have to install neutralizing transformers to eliminate sneak currents entering their nodes on copper communication lines.

mrkevin
Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.
Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
clubs:

Re: Why try to do broadband on the cheap!

I'm not saying power linemen cannot be trained to splice fiber.
I'm just saying (as a lineman for a telco) "I wouldn't want the power company around here splicing fiber" they have a hard enough time with the three phase they maintain now.

mrkevin
Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.
Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
clubs:
·US Cellular
·Dish Network
·magicjack.com
·Rivah.net

electrical stimulation

Why not? everyone else is.

Telephone companies: a provider of voice grade communications now offer internet.

Cable companies: a provider of premium television service now offer internet

cellular companies: a provider of cellular voice communications now offer internet

Why not the power companies?
then they will qualify for some of the Obama Bucks.

hands will be out everywhere.

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage

Re: electrical stimulation

Powerlines weren't designed for communications. They were designed to carry electricity.

Anything above a certain frequency would cause lots of interference.

Sending data over powerlines is like trying to send water through a pipe made of rolled up paper. Lots of messy leakage everywhere

Simba7

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

Re: electrical stimulation

Don't you mean paper towl tubes?

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

Re: electrical stimulation

It's a bit worse than that I'm afraid.

jadebangle
Premium
join:2007-05-22
Olathe, KS
using gas or water pipeline for internet are much more effective
cost effective and much safer then electric
/sarcasm
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: electrical stimulation

Its not sarcasm, your right

»www.google.com/tisp/
zed260

join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

Re: electrical stimulation

lol that was last years april fools joke from google fyi

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

said by Eat Me See Profile :

Powerlines weren't designed for communications. They were designed to carry electricity.
The phone lines were not designed to carry digital data, but now they do.

The Cable TV system was not designed to carry digital data, but now it does.

Sending data over powerlines is like trying to send water through a pipe made of rolled up paper. Lots of messy leakage everywhere
I can't speak to that directly, but it probably has to be bad before it can become good. That's the way progress works.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL

RR User

@rr.com

Re: electrical stimulation

HAMs are just the one's most in-tune with the possible problems of BPL.

Would your really want to see the effects of the RF interference from MILES OF UNSHIELDED ELECTRICAL CABLE BEING USED FOR DATA TRANSFER JUST FEET AWAY FROM THE MAJORITY OF PHONE AND CABLE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS that are carrying the residential data traffic now?

RR User

@rr.com

Re: electrical stimulation

»www.arrl.org/news/stories/2008/1···49/?nc=1


Notice where alot of shortwave spectrum is compared to the return spectrum used by cable.




Do you really want this product in wide deployment? They say not MANY have complained but then again they've only recently reached 1400 customers served, most of those in the last 18 months.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Like we don't have that today with powerline adapters?

I've been waiting to see real data about real problems. So far, there hasn't been much. My take on this whole BPL vs. the Hams is "proceed, with caution."

I became a ham because our inventiveness and innovations translate into real-world usage. This is a real-world usage. The ham bands are very important, but the Internet is the most important thing that has happened to the world since the invention of the printing press. We should do everything we can to support it, and if it affects the ham bands, it doesn't mean that BPL necessarily be sacrificed, it may mean that work needs to go into minimizing that interference.

My 2c.

Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL

NSA_CIA

@charter.com

Re: electrical stimulation

said by funchords See Profile :

My take on this whole BPL vs. the Hams is "proceed, with caution."
I think you misunderstood RR User. The post wasn't about HAMs, it was about cable interference.

IBEC's BPL equipment has been shown to interfere with communications in the shortwave spectrum, that's according to the first link and pic posted. That also happens to be a big chunk of the return RF spectrum for cable systems, that's shown by the second pic.

In other words, using IBEC's BPL equipment will more than likely interfere with cable modem communications in the area. Is it worth trashing one data service to launch another?

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: electrical stimulation

If it actually does ingress into Cable's supposed-to-be-closed system, if it does inhibit intended HF communication in ways that can't be mitigated, then it's a non-starter.

That it might have problems is not a reason to try.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: electrical stimulation

said by funchords See Profile :

If it actually does ingress into Cable's supposed-to-be-closed system, if it does inhibit intended HF communication in ways that can't be mitigated, then it's a non-starter.

That it might have problems is not a reason to try.
It's only a non-starter if the "contributions" have not been paid to the local politicos that really run everything.

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage

said by funchords See Profile :

Like we don't have that today with powerline adapters?

I've been waiting to see real data about real problems. So far, there hasn't been much. My take on this whole BPL vs. the Hams is "proceed, with caution."

I became a ham because our inventiveness and innovations translate into real-world usage. This is a real-world usage. The ham bands are very important, but the Internet is the most important thing that has happened to the world since the invention of the printing press. We should do everything we can to support it, and if it affects the ham bands, it doesn't mean that BPL necessarily be sacrificed, it may mean that work needs to go into minimizing that interference.

My 2c.

Robb
I have experienced the interference from the BPL in westchester county NY when I operate mobile from there sometimes.

The noise literally wipes out all of HF.
DoubleK
Doublek

join:2003-03-04
Beloit, WI
clubs:
·AT&T Midwest
·Charter Pipeline

Die! Die! Die!









In other words, DIE ALREADY BPL!

maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

It could have some potential.

I don't see BPL competing against FIOS and DOCSIS 3.0, but it may actually be able to deliver 1.5 Mbps DSL-like speeds to people who now only have dialup.

I don't know much about the technology behind it, but if it is less distance-sensitive then DSL, this could be used to connect Kansas farms to the internet.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net

I though you Staked it's heart


Scaaa reeeem it is the BPL Vampire out to suck cash.
And BPL moves through the night looking for virgin $Obama Bucks$ It never dies it floats on the night like a cow fart.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL

Leave BPL alone!

Maybe this is what Barack means by "Smart Grid"?

Seriously, if it can be deployed at rates competitive with WISP service, why not let the power companies go for it, so long as public money is not involved?

DSLR forum elites may poo-poo 256K symmetrical, but it IS broadband, and it is sufficient for any justified application, so long as it reliable and "always on".

Power companies are going to be more apt to raise and risk capital chasing elusive rural profits than locals are to form a WISP coop, and the last-mile infrastructure is mostly already in place.

I don't hold out much hope for BPL - every piece of gear I've evaluated in the past 20 years that attempts to mate power and data burned out in less than a year; X10 gear (no, not broadband!) typically burns up within 5 years.
It will probably always be a weak niche, but so what?

Why wish it dead?
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Leave BPL alone!

said by elray See Profile :

DSLR forum elites may poo-poo 256K symmetrical, but it IS broadband, and it is sufficient for any justified application, so long as it reliable and "always on".
Might as well get 2 ISDN pairs. Always on, and reliable under PSC rules.
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
·VOIPo

You are right. 256k may not be much, but it is better than dial-up, ISDN, and if it has pings like WISPs/DSL/cable it is better than SISP. Most likely would have no cap ether as it would be a bit of a conflict of interests. If powercos want to do it, let them. If it takes off it would really go somewhere. If it can get speeds up to 2m and a lot of powercos did it, it would put America higher on the wired list. There are a lot of rural areas here and if my local powerco(who serves them all along with the city of KC and the surrounding areas) did BPL at 1m+ they would have a LOT of costumers IF they advertised. We do have a WISP here that serves the same areas but if BPL was good enough and advertised it could still do very well.

256k would be enough for most things, for youtube all you need is 500k, so if you don't mind waiting it would be enough for that, and they have shows now so they could watch ALF/married with children/SMA/NTAS/Adams family/ect, and 256k is enough for VoIP too so that would cut down on the cost of phone. Around here one land line is $70 or $75(I forget how much it went up since I left for VOIPo)-$100 if it is that much in other rural areas BPL and VoIP could really help with the phone bill.
jay_rm

join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk


1 edit

Hola Amigo_Boy

Paging Amigo_Boy...

Time to jump in and pump your favorite broadband delivery method. Oh, and trash talk amateur radio...
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !'

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:

One way to look at it

Its not so much that BPL wont die but rather traditional broadband fails to live up to expectations.
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
·VOIPo

Re: One way to look at it

said by DataRiker See Profile :

Its not so much that BPL wont die but rather traditional broadband fails to live up to expectations.
^This!
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL

I hope they work something out

America has a lot of open space. Fast internet service is becoming more and more important. If we don't find a way to do consumer broadband at long distances, a lot of America's potential will not be met.

I hope BPL doesn't turn into another farm welfare program, though.

Failmanzy

@telus.net

Massive con/money sink

The whole concept was a cheap trick done by enron to inflate value of the company....
DoubleK
Doublek

join:2003-03-04
Beloit, WI
clubs:
·AT&T Midwest
·Charter Pipeline

LaLaLand

quote:
DSLR forum elites may poo-poo 256K symmetrical, but it IS broadband, and it is sufficient for any justified application, so long as it reliable and "always on".
Holy Cow what internet utopia do you surf? Most of America is clueless when it comes to their computers being hijacked by applications, advertisements and malware therfore 256/256 is not by any definition broadband.

The real internet is content rich and addicted to the bandwidth glut.

Possibly if Windows 7 includes a much more bandwidth sensitive browser. :O) Good Luck.
SlyLoK

join:2007-10-19
Sugar Grove, VA

BPL

Wouldnt be a bad idea if they can get by all the problems and make it reliable but it seems that it isnt going happen.
Forums » Powerline Broadband Just Won't Die


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