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 |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast And then they lose their house if they get hacked? | |
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 |  |  |   jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast Well, if the wireless industry is any indication of how these scenarios would be handled, they only get smoothed-over once the media makes a big stink out of the situation and it becomes a public relations disaster. | |
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 |  |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 USA
1 edit | If the reports of cell phone users accidentally incurring huge roaming charges are any indication, the ISPs will reduce the user's $100,000 one month bill to a more affordable $10,000.
EDIT: I should really read existing replies before I reply. jmn1207 said essentially the same thing.
-- -Jason Levine Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar and/or a photo book. Shooting For A Cause | |
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 |  |  |  |   jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast My lawyers will be contacting you.  | |
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join:2005-09-28 00000 | Yea, because the customer should never be held liable anything. | |
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 |  |  |  |  backness
join:2005-07-08 K2P OW2 | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast cmon
Do you really think a Home Cable modem connection could be worth any more than an absolute MAXIMUM of say $300 per month?
(not that I agree with any over charges) | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by backness :cmon Do you really think a Home Cable modem connection could be worth any more than an absolute MAXIMUM of say $300 per month? (not that I agree with any over charges) Pretty much. See a month is a finite period of time. So with a 15mbit connection, at an overestimate of 10 cents a gigabyte, you would pay a max of 475 dollars a month. If you use a more reasonable cost of 1 cent a gigabyte it only costs a max of $47.50.
But ISPs don't buy metered bandwidth from anyone. They just buy bulk symmetric connections. So there is no real cost per gigabyte anywhere in the system. It's just invented. There is no real cost per usage.
That is why fixed cost lines make sense. As bandwidth has nothing to do with the cost. The cost is the wires and the equipment connecting the wires and the maintenance. These are the same for everyone no matter how much they use. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  backness
join:2005-07-08 K2P OW2 1 edit | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast well in canada, they charge 1 dollar per gigabyte so your 10cents is way off
Edit:speelin | |
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 |  |  |   nonanonymous
@verizon.net | Absolving the consumer of responsibility (once again) for maintaining their systems securely. Great. | |
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 |   baineschile 2600 Premium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI | I think per-byte billing is inevitable; but most companies will offer an unlimited option | |
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 |  |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast No way. The issue with it will be cost. Companies will only move to it if it ensures them more money.
If you are paying 40 bucks a month right now for unlimited and they cap that at 10gb and charge 1 dollar for each additional GB, your bill is going to go up. No one would save anything.
The fact that there are stock based companies makes it illegal for them to change their billing in any way that involves the customers paying less money.
I would hope customers will continue to oppose metered billing for these obvious reasons. | |
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 |  |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County
| If they price it right - unlimited can be a top tier for those folks wanting it and they can do metered below. If they can price it that they make more money while customers are willing to pay for it (kinda like cell service now) then yes - it will happen and the companies will make more money. -- Brian
"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast quote: The only benefit for paying per byte is the company makes more money. There is no benefit to customers who now have to pay more for usage.
Of course the only benefit to per byte is more money for the company - kinda the reason it is in business.
If they price unlimited high enough to make a good amount more while people perceive the value is worth it - then it will be done.
So far - I have yet to see a company have all, or even a majority, of its customers leave when per byte billing has been implemented. As such - it won't be going away soon. Prices are very rarely solely up to the customer. -- Brian
"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   r81984 Thread is Premium join:2001-11-14 St John'S, NL | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast Customers can't leave because most ISPs are monopolies and they work together with competitors to be able to charge more. -- Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by CylonRed :So far - I have yet to see a company have all, or even a majority, of its customers leave when per byte billing has been implemented. As such - it won't be going away soon. Prices are very rarely solely up to the customer. How long you been using the internet?
Back in the mid 90s, most ISPs were charging for connect time (not bytes). Any time one or more ISPs in the area offered an unlimited connect time, people BAILED on the connect time chargers.
Then again, people used to have quite a few choices of providers in many markets. Now? There's mostly, at best, duopolies. People *can't* bail. And, even if they can, it makes no sense to do so because the two "competitors" have pretty much the same rate structures in place.
So, yeah, with the markets the way they are, now, you won't see much migration when a company does something egregious. Doesn't mean customers wouldn't leave if they had other, real options. -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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@att.net
| Bingo thank you!
Also these are "regulated" utilities granted local licenses for the privilege to operate as such. If these companies could charge $10,000 per person they would. These companies are of course for profit for their owners.
The local governments also has right and obligation to keep the companies in check from pillaging the people who live in that community. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County
| Been using for quite a long time - I stand by my statements and have yet to see users bail big time for those ISPs for broadband - till then... -- Brian
"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   espaeth Digital Plumber Premium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| said by r81984 :The problem is the cell phone companies build the network, they do not pay per byte so it makes no sense to charge customers per byte. This is one of the reasons that broadband and wireless data is lagging behind backbone infrastructure. At the carrier level you pay by commit level and 95th percentile utilization, or you pay full circuit unmetered rates. Usage-based pricing at the carrier level created a system by which escalating usage created increasing levels of cash flow which provided the necessary funding to rapidly build to meet demand.
Flat, fixed-rate pricing provides you with consistent income, but your upgrade cycles are fixed -- you don't have a rapid inflow of cash should demand outpace predicted growth, and the opportunity to fall short is ever present.
said by r81984 :Also, do not forget that per byte billing is crazy since you have no control over the size of the websites you go to and then you can't use any streaming services like radio (xm), tv (hulu), or streaming movies (netflix). That's a scare tactic that's frequently thrown out, but it's not true at all. People are using these services today and ISPs are paying their upstream network providers based on usage. The cost of electricity didn't stop people from buying more electrical appliances; if a technology has merit it will still be used. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   r81984 Thread is Premium join:2001-11-14 St John'S, NL
·magicjack.com
·Cox HSI
·Insight Communicat..
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by espaeth :said by r81984 :The problem is the cell phone companies build the network, they do not pay per byte so it makes no sense to charge customers per byte. This is one of the reasons that broadband and wireless data is lagging behind backbone infrastructure. At the carrier level you pay by commit level and 95th percentile utilization, or you pay full circuit unmetered rates. Usage-based pricing at the carrier level created a system by which escalating usage created increasing levels of cash flow which provided the necessary funding to rapidly build to meet demand. Flat, fixed-rate pricing provides you with consistent income, but your upgrade cycles are fixed -- you don't have a rapid inflow of cash should demand outpace predicted growth, and the opportunity to fall short is ever present. said by r81984 :Also, do not forget that per byte billing is crazy since you have no control over the size of the websites you go to and then you can't use any streaming services like radio (xm), tv (hulu), or streaming movies (netflix). That's a scare tactic that's frequently thrown out, but it's not true at all. People are using these services today and ISPs are paying their upstream network providers based on usage. The cost of electricity didn't stop people from buying more electrical appliances; if a technology has merit it will still be used. That makes no sense. You are getting usage and customers mixed up. With a flat rate when they get an influx of new customers and they will make more money right away from the flat rate fees. Also, electricity rates are regulated, the cost of a byte is not. Consumable electricity generation cost is also variable based on how much electricity is generated. The cost of building a network is fixed and electricity usage is basically fixed (since its price is regulated). Regardless if you are only using half the bandwidth of a strand of fiber or all of it, the cost does not change.
Everything with an ISP is a fixed cost. They pay for the internet connection, they pay for equipment, they pay for tech support, etc. It makes no sense to have a variable pricing when all the costs you have is fixed based on the number of customers you have. They have to pay the full network costs regardless if customers use their full connections or not.
All these companies will do with pay per byte is set a high per byte price that at least give them the same amount of money they get with the fixed pricing so they can still pay all their fixed costs. Then what happens is the customers that actually use their internet connections get gouged with higher fees while very few people who barely use their internet connections actually save some money. If they actually had a fair realistic pay per byte fee where they divided up the fixed costs by how much bandwidth they have available then we would all be paying less and they would lose money.
Why would you want customers to pay higher fees? -- Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   espaeth Digital Plumber Premium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by r81984 :With a flat rate when they get an influx of new customers and they will make more money right away from the flat rate fees. That only works until you saturate a market to the point that new subscriber sign-up rates drop off. Of course, the barrier for entry is huge for new providers; the cost of broadband is artificially low because existing cable plant is being leveraged in the majority of installations. Telcos and MSOs were able to leverage a vast copper cable plant already in the ground paid for by the high profit margins of other services deployed on those lines for decades. Nobody can complete to just come in and offer a data-only service offering, which is why you are seeing even in the case of muni deployments that they need to supply the triple play of phone, TV, and Internet to make the cost structure work.
said by r81984 :Also, electricity rates are regulated, the cost of a byte is not. Consumable electricity generation cost is also variable based on how much electricity is generated. Electric utility rates are not regulated in every state, and the cost is not per byte -- it's in the percentage of infrastructure consumed by utilization. That's why it's a sliding scale at various points along the network and there isn't a fixed "per byte" cost universally.
said by r81984 :The cost of building a network is fixed and electricity usage is basically fixed (since its price is regulated). Regardless if you are only using half the bandwidth of a strand of fiber or all of it, the cost does not change. Once you reach the capacity of your infrastructure it's forklift upgrades to provide expansion. Capacity upgrades are not linear, it's a step function. You want to improve DOCSIS cable rates, you have to replace your CMTS with one that supports DOCSIS 3.0. You want to upgrade to ADSL2+, you need to replace all of your field DSLAMs to units that support the new protocol.
said by r81984 :Everything with an ISP is a fixed cost. They pay for the internet connection, they pay for equipment, they pay for tech support, etc. It makes no sense to have a variable pricing when all the costs you have is fixed based on the number of customers you have. They have to pay the full network costs regardless if customers use their full connections or not. You're leaving out one massive variable: oversubscription. The sum total of all of the subscriber access connections is greater than the capacity of the ISP's network. As usage at the edge increases, elements of the network must be upgraded to support the greater capacity demand. If the network were provisioned at 1:1 even throughput you would never be able to afford your broadband connection. (look at the pricing for T1, DS3 services as a start to index on pricing)
said by r81984 :Why would you want customers to pay higher fees? I want a model that supports growth. If I want to consume 1500GB/mo at home, I want a system in place that would both allow me to do that and provide a financial incentive for companies to grow their network to be able to sell me more bandwidth. That model has delivered massive gains to the web hosting market space over the last few years, there is no reason that it couldn't deliver the same possibilities for end-user access. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system.
By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely.
It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   r81984 Thread is Premium join:2001-11-14 St John'S, NL
·magicjack.com
·Cox HSI
·Insight Communicat..
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by jmn1207 :Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system. By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely. It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit. Per byte takes the control away from ISPs and makes it harder for them to make the profit they want because monthly usage can change drastically. Since all the costs are fixed regardless of usage if usage is low one month they are screwed.
It is simple since the costs are fixed and do not increase or decrease with usage it makes no sense to charge by usage. -- Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by r81984 :said by jmn1207 :Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system. By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely. It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit. Per byte takes the control away from ISPs and makes it harder for them to make the profit they want because monthly usage can change drastically. Since all the costs are fixed regardless of usage if usage is low one month they are screwed. It is simple since the costs are fixed and do not increase or decrease with usage it makes no sense to charge by usage. If history is any indication of how the pricing would work, the ISP's are not going to create a situation that would cause them to lose money per subscriber. Nobody would be getting a price break with per-byte billing. The entry tier would be no less than your current, coveted fixed rate billing. The only difference would be the drastic change in the amount you would be able to download before incurring expensive overage charges, and they would probably create a "complimentary" tier that cost quite a bit more for those wishing to increase their monthly limits.
A per-byte format would never allow for 75% of the current internet subscribers to save a few dollars because of their limited amount of usage. That is not what this is about. It's all about making it impossible for anybody to use a bandwidth intensive product without either paying an outrageous amount of money, or by using something provided solely by the ISP, on their terms, and at their cost, with no legitimate competition. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   JKM
join:2009-06-08 Seymour, MO
| How do you figure an ISP's bandwidth is a fixed cost? And there bandwidth transportation? And their electric costs which rise with usage? And their maintenance which rises with usage? And on and on. Rent, Leases and such are fixed costs. Not most other costs. Truck rolls increase with usage and do support costs. What is your business experience? -- Begin with the end in mind! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Lazlow
join:2006-08-07 Saint Louis, MO
1 edit | Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast JKM
Their bandwidth costs (both hardware and transit) are based on peak Mbps not GBs per month. The equipment has to be running 24/7 and the electricity use difference between fully loaded and idle is really minuscule. A fiber/coax/etc will require the same maintenance no matter what the load is on that transport media. How do you figure the number of truck rolls increase with usage? The two greatest enemies of this type of equipment is time and exposure(both of which are essentially a fixed cost). | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   JKM
join:2009-06-08 Seymour, MO
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast The ISP I speak of is a WISP, so the load on the radios does change the equation. The more use increases the more the customers have problems, more truck rolls. Usage does affect costs on the last mile infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong.......I don't support caps. Caps are merely the way the monopolies and duopolies, who control the middle mile infrastructure, discourage use. -- Begin with the end in mind! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  Lazlow
join:2006-08-07 Saint Louis, MO | espaeth
You know very well that ISPs do NOT pay by the gigabyte. Both their transit costs and hardware cost are solely based upon peak Mbps. So ANY GBs downloaded during off peak hours incur no additional costs (as in zero) for the ISP. | |
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 |  |  |  ominae
join:2003-05-11 Columbus, OH
| More money is exactly why they would move to it.
If metered billing was necessary for their survival, all an ISP would have to do is show numbers proving it. They could put out details showing how they spend so much for bandwidth, so much for network maintenance, so much on labor costs and so on. No one has done so because it isn't true. The numbers on their 10-K forms prove it.
It's greed at it's worst. It's not enough to make a reasonable profit anymore, everyone is trying to impress the shareholders by showing a bigger gain quarter after quarter. They try to monetize everything. It's why they sell your personal info and browsing habits. Like I want you to "share" my info with "select" (read: anyone who can write a check) partners to offer me new and exciting products and services?
It's why ISP's have an illogical fear of being just an ISP. It's a sick cycle. You get a company who does one thing well and makes a decent profit doing it. Then they get greedy and decide they want to "diversify" and buy into different businesses which they think makes sense. This continues until they start losing money quarter after quarter. They eventually spin off or sell the failed businesses, putting out a press release saying it will allow them to "focus on our core business", which is where the focus should have been from day one. Meanwhile the customer has to pay for their mistakes in the form of higher bills (special thanks to Time Warner for allowing me to subsidize the money pit known as AOL). | |
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 |  |   AlfredNewman
@bankone.com
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forecast I can understand where you're coming from baineschile but as the title states, its neither necessary nor inevitable. If anything history, other countries, and consumers has taught us is that flat-rate is the way of broadband. It always comes back full-circle to it. It's simpler and cheaper and that is what the average American is looking for. Not to mention all of the internet-able devices out there that thrive on the ability to use that broadband connection for streaming movies, medical information, downloading/playing video games, ,VoIP, video conferencing, VPN for work at home users, etc... I believe not only do you stifle innovation but you also say you're willing to financially rape consumers for something that an ISP pays pennies on a dollar for during a recession but if you're killing to do teired services you better be prepared to either deduct the amount owed for what I didn't use or let me carry over what amount I did not use to the next month with no cut-off dates. | |
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 |  |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast said by baineschile :I think per-byte billing is inevitable; but most companies will offer an unlimited option Yes, but as we've seen, over and over, "unlimited" is rarely unlimited in the sense that most people understand the term to mean. -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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  Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ | Either - or, neither - nor So per-byte broadband billing is neither necessary nor inevitable. | |
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 |   DataDoc My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D. Premium join:2000-05-14 Greenville, NC | Re: Either - or, neither - nor Thank you, Miss Crabtree. | |
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  jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Keep the Dream Alive Unfortunately, per-byte-billing, as will certainly be implemented by the industry, offers higher profits while stifling innovation. These are 2 important bonuses for the corporations. The necessary money and control may not be available to make this happen now, but they are getting there. | |
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 |  See 15 replies to this post |
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 chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| who gets most affected by per byte disabled low income low min wage workers
unaffected: rich spoiled brats
--------------- effect: when you remove all the above the excuse to NOT buy what is there is gone aka you had to be wealthy enough for internet after all. This is the next phase of these moves. | |
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 |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: who gets most affected by per byte said by chronoss2009 :disabled ???
said by chronoss2009 :low income low min wage workers Isn't that kind of redundant? I know you need to try to come up with a "long enough" list, but still...
At any rate... I know that I would be effected and I don't fall into the "low income"/"low min wage workers" group. Why? Because I telecommute. There's quite a bit of bandwidth such activities chew up. If doing so becomes too expensive, then I'll just switch back to driving to work.
Hmm... Perhaps the HSI services could be blocked on this based on environmental impact...
said by chronoss2009 :unaffected: rich spoiled brats Not, *quite* accurate. You assume that the "rich spoiled brats" are heavy enough users to be effected. Seems a dubious supposition at best.
Of those that actually do use enough, they'll still be effected, it's just that it will have a lower relative impact.
said by chronoss2009 :--------------- effect: when you remove all the above the excuse to NOT buy what is there is gone aka you had to be wealthy enough for internet after all. This is the next phase of these moves. Care to be more incoherent? -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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  birdfeedr Premium,MVM join:2001-08-11 Warwick, RI | Funny thing... is that the same companies who want to impose per-byte billing are opposed to a la carte video.
I'd accept the one as long as it was accompanied by the other. *And* I had an option to choose a different vendor. | |
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 |  |   birdfeedr Premium,MVM join:2001-08-11 Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Funny thing... said by espaeth :The MSOs and Telcos are just middle men when it comes to TV -- whether it's delivered through traditional QAM channel delivery or delivered via IP packets, these companies are just transporting content from producers to end users. The MSOs are stuck buying the groupings that the content producers are willing to sell -- that's why every PayTV provider's channel package is almost identical. Good point. Thanks. | |
|
  IceCreamHead
@xo.net | But using less of the network WAS Slate's point. AT&T's networks ARE congested, so the company DOES want people to use less bandwidth. It might not make sense for Verizon (my provider), but their network isn't as bogged down by traffic. | |
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 |   bender Bite my shiny metal ass Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL clubs: | Re: But using less of the network WAS Slate's point. are you talking about their wireless network or their dsl/uverse networks? I have never had my dsl connection get bogged down by anyone but myself. I always have at least 85% of the advertised speed and my latency is great. | |
|
 Network Guy
join:2000-08-25 New York
·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
·Verizon Online DSL
| We need pro-people lobbyists We need someone powerful to tell the ISPs to STFU.
It's bullshit how per-byte billing is inevitable when all the TV commercials rave about downloading files and video in seconds. It's becoming bait-and-switch.. Why sell a "value" that to a customer who's bound to get fucked by it?
ISPs will get what they're not looking for.. Less capital investment on infrastructure... and less customer revenue.. 'cause anyone with a brain can't be an idiot enough to keep paying for something as Draconian as what they're suggesting to do. | |
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 |  jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04 USA | Re: We need pro-people lobbyists The govt is supposed to be out "pro-people" advocate. Basically our lobbyist. They've kind of failed on that. | |
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 |  |  Network Guy
join:2000-08-25 New York | Re: We need pro-people lobbyists I should have said we need to buy pro-people lobbyists. | |
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 chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | yea we need pro people lobbysits prob is what happens is they get bogged down in more and more moral "save the kids crap" well we are the fraking kids and we are sick and tired of the BULLSHIT
lawyers are also sadly needed and they cost money and support the very system we are in fact fighting. one idea is that if you get enough of those people together you can threaten that YOU WILL DO your own networks and who cares id rather give 5$ a month to sme org fighting for that then isps that just use it to buy the next mansion and enslave us further.
IF citizen groups acorss all the planet starting suing to open up access to and for last mile areas YOU'D SEE CHANGE RIGHT DAMN FAST as they panic large.
LOOK at the costs in BC at that one isp offering wicked deal and how shaw deals with it.... Still do not bite do not eat there deals do not buy into there ocntinued existance. THat would take time , money and effort but a few years form now would clean up a lot a crap idiot CEOS that do not realize its US PEOPLE THAT FEED YOUR ROLLS ROYCES | |
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 nonymous
join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ
| Who is looking out for the telcos. They have CEOs and investors that need their golden parachutes. I really thing it needs to be per bit. Plus when the telcos are poor they could just dos you thus raising your bill for their needed extra cash. Its for the telcos. Is everyone here heartless. Anyone checking more than a few emails a month is a heavy user. Think the olden days. This is a luxury item so I know you can afford to pay so the CEO gets his well deserved raise. When Gore invented the net I bet even he foresaw the need to charge per bit. If all you need is bandwidth go carrier pidgeon. It is slower but like I read just strap a large USB on them and send on their way. Work for pidgeon feed. Plus bandwidth limited only to what they can carry. | |
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 |  See 6 replies to this post |
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 yt Premium join:2008-06-03 1 edit | "talking to industry vendors who don't see ..." Are those the same industry vendors who make more money the larger the networks grow?
Will Craig supply the carriers more Arbor boxes to measure the traffic (without incremental spend) | |
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 old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03 Bedford, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| A side effect... would be greatly increased use and effectiveness of adblocking software for web browsers, be it Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari, or Opera. No one wants to pay extra to see stupid ads. The advertisers would not like that, but if we have to specifically pay for advertising on a per bit basis, I'd do everything I could to avoid getting ads in the first place. People that make adons that block ads would get a big increase in business. | |
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 jimbopalmer Tsar of all the Rushers
join:2008-06-02 Greenwood, MS
·Windjammer Cable
| Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate. -- I tried to remain child-like, all I achieved was childish. | |
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 |   RARPSL
join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY
| Re: Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable said by jimbopalmer :I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate. This is not a logical method. There needs to be be a minimal flat rate for your connection and a metered rate for the USE of the connection. No matter how much or little you use, there is still a cost for the ability to use the connection that you need to pay. When the metered (or capped) plans are talked about, the fixed and variable costs are commingled to mess up the analysis. The poster up-thread who asked for a rebate or roll-over for under use has the right idea in the commingled method. You are paying the fixed fee and a lump sum for the first x units of use. Thus if you do not use all of your paid for usage it SHOULD be rolled over to the next period (with periodic rebates that wipe out the rolled-over credits but charging you just the base fixed fee for the month).
If you look at the prices for having both Cable TV and Internet you will find that you are giving a $5-10 discount for having both. This means that by their own prices the fixed cost of that connection (with no use) is the $5-10. Thus you should be required to pay this amount JUST TO be able to use the internet and then get billed extra for your usage.
To use an analogy look at your car. You pay a registration fee (Fixed Cost) on the car for having a car to drive. You then pay a variable fee (based on how far you drive it and your cars MPG) when you buy gas for the car. | |
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 |  |  jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04 USA
1 edit | Re: Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable ISP shouldn't charge for this. They want us as a customer. That is simply the cost of doing business. Next thing you know we will all have to start paying every company in our area because there is a wire or pipe to our homes. I mean, someone needs to maintain those pipes and wires....
All of this should be in the price of the service... Remember, customers care about the bottom line... | |
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 |  |  Lazlow
join:2006-08-07 Saint Louis, MO
| While I agree that a fixed base charge is reasonable and correct, charging based upon GBs downloaded is not related to the ISPs costs( so the car analogy fails here). Both transit costs and hardware costs are entirely based upon peak Mbps. Any GBs downloaded during non peak hours incurs no additional costs for the ISP, yet they want to charge for them. Since their costs are related to peak Mbps and their (current) tiers are priced by Mbps, the current situation(flat rate) is fair. IF they temporarily need to handle traffic issues during peak hours they can implement proticol agnostic throttling such as what Comcast uses(again temporarily, during peak hours, until capacity can be upgraded). Just look at the ISP's filings, they are not even close to loosing money on the internet side. | |
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 |  |  jimbopalmer Tsar of all the Rushers
join:2008-06-02 Greenwood, MS
·Windjammer Cable
| said by RARPSL :said by jimbopalmer :I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate. This is not a logical method. There needs to be be a minimal flat rate for your connection and a metered rate for the USE of the connection. No matter how much or little you use, there is still a cost for the ability to use the connection that you need to pay. I assure you that both my electricity bill and water bill are 100% based on usage. If I use electricity or water I pay for it, if I don't I don't. The ISPs want HUGE flat rates AND per byte billing. I am happy with flat rate OR per byte billing, but not both. -- I tried to remain child-like, all I achieved was childish. | |
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  jaa Premium,MVM join:2000-06-13
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| Metering is not the way to restrict usage... bandwidth limits is. That is the way the ISPs are going - multiple tiers with different bandwidth limits.
Simple, and provides additional income from higher level users while being affordable to lower level users. -- NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists. | |
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 rick89
join:2003-12-10 Franklin, NC | What about packet loss? hes another issue. What if the ISP has a crappy network, so your dropping packets that count toward your per/byte and then you have to retransmit the same info, doubling your usage for that packet | |
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 |  |  Lazlow
join:2006-08-07 Saint Louis, MO | Re: What about packet loss? Not really an option in a lot of markets. | |
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 |  |  |   espaeth Digital Plumber Premium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN | Re: What about packet loss? Then move. People move all the time for access to better schools, jobs, transit access, parks, etc. Why should broadband access be any different? | |
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 |  |  |  |  Lazlow
join:2006-08-07 Saint Louis, MO
| Re: What about packet loss? espaeth
Get real. While people do often move for better jobs, only an extremely few move (as in the distance to a market with more ISP options) for the other reasons you listed. All the other reasons you listed you can usually just move to a different section of a town to improve. In most towns one cannot move to another area within the same town(or metro) and change the ISPs one has access to, for the most part each town(or metro) has just one set of choices for ISP. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   Duramax08 Oh rly?
join:2008-08-03 San Antonio, TX | Re: What about packet loss? +1 | |
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 SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17 Laramie, WY
1 edit | The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable by imposing "network neutrality" rules which prevent ISPs from shaping traffic and holding back bandwidth hogs. The only way for ISPs to prevent users from consuming more than they are paying for under such a regime -- and meet payroll-- will be to deter them with higher bills. | |
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 |   huntml
join:2002-01-23 Mullica Hill, NJ
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable said by SuperWISP :The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable by imposing "network neutrality" rules which prevent ISPs from shaping traffic and holding back bandwidth hogs. The only way for ISPs to prevent users from consuming more than they are paying for under such a regime -- and meet payroll-- will be to deter them with higher bills. I disagree with this.
From the standpoint of the network operator, the issue of concern isn't total metered throughput at any given node, it's capacity-hogging at a given node, isn't it? So how's metered billing going to help?
I could run something file-sharing app configured to limit its bandwidth to low levels 24/7/365 and trade many many gigabytes of data and it wouldn't cause my operator any issues at all; OTOH, a guy who runs the same app wide open during peak hours just a couple hours a day could be trading a lot less packets than I do overall, but he could be the one degrading service for the other users sharing his upstream node(s).
I don't see how charging by the byte is going to fix the problem and make the network work better for all users, which is what ISPs are saying is their goal in introducing per-byte billing schemes.
And this being the case, it seems pretty clear to me that calls for metered billing are just a money grab.
Capping users based on some metric getting at the percentage of time they are using really high levels of capacity would seem to make more sense, or even just managing total bandwidth on some sort of equitable, protocol-agnostic basis.
And there is nothing about these sorts of approaches that violates network neutrality principles as far as I can see. | |
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