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National Security Letters See Major Legal Challenge
Anonymous Carrier Fights Letters on Constitutional Grounds
by Karl Bode Thursday 19-Jul-2012 tags: legal · business · privacy
We've covered for several years the growing use (or in a significant number of proven cases, the abuse) of National Security Letters. NSLs allow the government to obtain records from broadband ISPs or other businesses, then invoke a gag order against the ISP with no judicial review. That's of course fairly open to abuse, given the FBI could obtain any records they want, nobody could talk about it, and nobody could review it. As such, a government investigation in 2010 found 60% of FBI’s NSLs failed to conform to Justice Department rules, and another 22% involved improper requests or unauthorized information collection.

The Wall Street Journal has an interesting read on how the government is facing their most serious challenge yet to the use of these letters, with an unidentified California telecom operator (which the WSJ thinks could be Credo, but which could also be Sonic.net) challenging their use on constitutional grounds. They've also been counter-sued by the DOJ:

In the challenge playing out in California, the company is fighting the letters on constitutional grounds. It is arguing, among other things, that the gag orders associated with most of these letters improperly restrain speech without a judge's authorization....The Justice Department's civil suit against the unnamed telecom company seeks a judge's order compelling the firm to give up the data. The government has agreed to a temporary stay of that lawsuit, a Justice Department spokesman said. But the government is still separately seeking the judge's order to compel release of the data.

The EFF is once again in the thick of things, and has been representing the unnamed telecom operator. Opposition to these letters has been focused mainly around smaller operators. Nicholas Merrill, who ran a WiMax operator and spent years fighting such letters, recently announced he'd soon be launching the country's first surveillance-proof ISP whose primary purpose (aside from providing broadband) will be to fight the government's relentless efforts to expand their surveillance authority with quite often a total disregard for law.

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camaro92
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA

No point

When you go against the feds especially about this program you will loose every time.

NSL's erased the constitution a long time ago (thank you Patriot Act) so we should just use it for a camp fire and be done with it.
ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

Re: No point

The tough fights are really the ones most worth fighting.

Twaddle

@sbcglobal.net
Claro!!! The Patriot Act was the sinle most damaging piece of unconstitutional legislation ever foisted on the American Public and our Judicial arm is nothing but a bunch of "castrated" sheep that allow for this total disregard of Constitutional law!

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

Nothing to see, move along

There hasn't been a repeat of 9/11 so obviously NSL and the Patriot Act are doing what they are intended. To challenge them would be unpatriotic. So are you a traitor, or just wanting to support terrorism?

And since this is DSLReports where a good number of people have absolutely no sense of sarcasm, the above is such an example and is not meant to be taken seriously. Maybe.

nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·Comcast

Re: Nothing to see, move along

said by cdru:

There hasn't been a repeat of 9/11 so obviously NSL and the Patriot Act are doing what they are intended. To challenge them would be unpatriotic. So are you a traitor, or just wanting to support terrorism?

And since this is DSLReports where a good number of people have absolutely no sense of sarcasm, the above is such an example and is not meant to be taken seriously. Maybe.

That is the very reason they named it patriot act. They roll tyranny up in the american flag, so the sheep go along with it. Keep moving and gives your rights up for false security, the government will have the tsa assault you to make sure your safe!

mmay149q
Premium
join:2009-03-05
Dallas, TX
kudos:48

1 edit
said by cdru:

There hasn't been a repeat of 9/11 so obviously NSL and the Patriot Act are doing what they are intended. To challenge them would be unpatriotic. So are you a traitor, or just wanting to support terrorism?

And since this is DSLReports where a good number of people have absolutely no sense of sarcasm, the above is such an example and is not meant to be taken seriously. Maybe.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9JFUqBKIRE


You need to learn history, and understand the Constitution, that is all.

Matt
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

Re: Nothing to see, move along

I think you just need to read his comment in a more sarcastic tone.

nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·Comcast

Re: Nothing to see, move along

said by vpoko:

I think you just need to read his comment in a more sarcastic tone.

I tryed to look at it that way myself, but couldn't take it that way.

tehGeo

@63.239.65.x

How can that be?

If "nobody could review it," how did "a government investigation in 2010 [find] 60%" to not conform to guidelines? That sounds like a form of review to me...

vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

Re: How can that be?

It's an after-the-fact audit, by the time it's done the improperly requested data has been long turned over.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Exactly how it should be

Take it to court and see what they say. There have been previous general suits filed by the ACLU and EFF that were decided against the plaintiffs. I think this is the first one brought by a carrier/ISP.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Re: Exactly how it should be

and the contents of the NSL made public at the same time. this no review with free gag order stuff goes against the whole purpose of this country.

its like Innocent until secretly proven guilty by way of evidence sealed in an NDA.

though one way around this stuff is to release the info to a whistle blowing site and fake some router and firewall logs and claim you got hacked.
--
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MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Exactly how it should be

Um, no. This is wrongheaded on three counts.

a) There is clearly security value in the contents of the NSLs. Why would you insist that they be made public, therefore warning the terrorists and others that they are trying to catch? Makes no sense. Plain old wiretap warrants are not made public for exactly the same reason. Kind of defeats the purpose, that you want to intercept communications that the target doesn't know are being intercepted.

b) This has absolutely zero to do with innocent until proven guilty. I have no idea what you are talking about here. The operators who receive the NSLs are not being accused of any crime, far from it.

c) Leak the info secretly and blame it on hackers. Yeah, that's the ticket. That way the terrorist/criminal groups they are targeting get warned about the government's interest in them and find out exactly how they are looking and what they are looking for, thus enabling them to simply change their communication methods. That seems like a good goal. Not.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Exactly how it should be

Your A and B arguments are just silly.

A.) Let them obtain a fully reviewed warrant to obtain the information as they should. Not a single organization or entity should have unaccountable and unreviewable access to anything. They should be accountable to the court system just like they are if they want a wiretap as you say.

B.) Your statement is simply dumb. Sure they (operators) are not accused of a crime, but one of their customers are suspected of it and they should not have to turn anything over until they get a valid warrant requesting it.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Exactly how it should be

A). The NSLs are reviewed by the FISA court and signed off by a judge. Do your homework. Don't believe all the crap "reported" here.

Also your point has absolutely nothing do do with the question, which was about making the NSLs public, not about the review process.

B). NSLs ARE valid warrants. And, a warrant is NOT an accusation of a crime. Much less the arrest and prosecution of a criminal charge, which is where innocent until proven guilty applies.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Exactly how it should be

Your assumption is that they are reviewed and valid, which you nor I can confirm nor deny. Especially when they want to do it super secret and put NDA's on everything.

However, being it is the US government I highly doubt they follow any procedures that interfere with what they want and skirt the requirements when they deem it necessary.

The government has very few things they do that should be secret and 99.9% of those things are military based. Justice, should not be one of those things EVER regardless of the good they or you claim it brings.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Exactly how it should be

They are reviewed and valid BY DEFINITION. The judge's signature makes it valid.

By starting off your arguments with words like "illegal, unconstitutional, unreviewed..." you are simply engaging in a rhetorical device of assuming the conclusion. The popularized version of this is the completely un-PC joke: "When did you stop beating your wife?"

If you want to argue that the review process is not working, go ahead. But don't spew dark conspiratorial phrases like "I doubt there's any review at all! Because this is the Government!". That is just lame.

Oh can't resist this one: this is the same Government you put your trust in to take over the ISPs because it's SO MUCH BETTER than those evil corporations.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Exactly how it should be

Correct me if I am wrong, but there have been "reviews" of their procedures that show they dont follow them or have bastardized them to their liking to make it more convenient for them.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Exactly how it should be

Sure, I'll do your research for you.

the Wikipedia article seems out of date, but has some information.

The only recent thing I find is this article from the Cato Institute which has some useful links to source material. It is chock full of the usual blustering otherwise.

This guy seems to be shocked, SHOCKED, that (by his conjecture) source data is collected and stored and THEN reduced and filtered before going to the NSL requester. (How the hell else are you supposed to do it? Pretty tough to do a real-time filter like that.)

Bottom line IMO is, yes there have been reviews, yes they have found problems, matter of opinion how severe, one can only assume that the judges on the court are aware of these issues and are dealing with them. That's what judges are for, to judge.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Exactly how it should be

Case in point of how they like to "bastardize" things to get what they want....

»arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012···dragnet/
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Exactly how it should be

Read the article twice and there's nothing in there related to your point. Care to amplify?

As far as I can tell all it says is that there are a lot of warrants for data from wireless carriers and ISPs, and that sometimes this data includes information about people who are not suspects, because it's for things like "need all cellphones near a certain tower at a certain time" so that the police/FBI can try to track suspected criminals/terrorists, or maybe to prove/disprove an alibi. Match up the records vs. the known cellphone IDs, and presto, you know where someone was (or wasn't) at a certain time.

Sounds like a valid investigative tool to me.

From a Constitutional point of view, the story affirms that data held by third parties is not subject to the 4th amendment against unreasonable search and seizure. Which makes sense to me.

The analogy would be, you're driving your car in public, someone happens to be shooting a video with their cellphone, or maybe a traffic camera or security camera catches you on tape, and later you rob a bank then claim you were elsewhere. Is it now prohibited to introduce this evidence from a third party that proves that you (or at least your car) was there at a certain time?

Same thing with cellphones. You're revealing your location to the wireless carrier all the time. This information is saved and subject to retrieval by the authorities given a warrant. It's not like they are searching your person or house. The data is held by the wireless carrier, not you.

Given all that... this has nothing to do with the question, which is are the NSLs being misused. In this case it's a perfectly valid use affirmed by the courts. There is no accusation in this story of misusing the process, only that they think the process is wrong.

ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

This statement was way off

"surveillance-proof ISP"

There's no such thing.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Who is this Anonymous Freedom-Fighting Carrier!

... and where did they come from!

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