Municipal Report$25 broadband, $30 phone ( old news - 02:05PM Monday Jan 12 2004) tags: prices · competition · alternativesThe 16,000 residents of Newnan, Georgia can purchase broadband, cable television, and phone service from their local municipality. Those residents pay $25 a month for a broadband connection, and $30 a month for phone service (with features like callerID and voicemail at no extra cost). An additional $30, and those users can sign up for 74 channel cable. The shift we've been discussing for several years takes center stage in this Los Angeles Times article (free registration required, but worth it). 357 municipalities now offer service in the United States, with the number of cities offering their own service growing fifty-four percent in the last two years. In just the time we've been writing this report, the push has shifted from scattered communities considering the idea, to massive 18-city fiber deployment municipal plans, potentially offering service to nearly a million users (giving network equipment vendors a much needed boost in the process). It's no longer a question of whether or not it's a trend. "This is like the history of electrification all over again and communities realize that if they don't roll their sleeves up and get involved, they are not going to get broadband and other advanced communication services," says Muni-lawyer Jim Baller to the times. Baller clarified much of the mystery surrounding municipal broadband when we interviewed him last summer. A must read for those who want to learn more about the issue. Newnan joined the municipal push about seven years ago after failing to get BellSouth to upgrade deteriorating lines in the region. As Newman got into the broadband business, local competitors like Charter and BellSouth began to finally pay attention. Charter filed a lawsuit to prevent Newnan from offering cable, and according to the Times, eventually wound up offering Newman residents as much as $300 to switch to Charter service. Charter and BellSouth argue they shouldn't be competing with the same organizations that often wind up regulating them. They also suggest that the munis have an unfair advantage, sometimes drawing from taxpayer funds to help fund operations. In a majority of the municipal regions, incumbents have responded with lawsuits, discounts, or anti-muni PR campaigns. "This is not about us being against competition," insists BellSouth Georgia president of operations Phil Jacobs. "We just want competition to take place on a level playing field."The munis generally respond that they were born out of a lack of action to begin with, and if the communities vote for service, then they should be allowed to provide it without facing state-level bans, often backed by the incumbents. Related:- Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes
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  Masque
join:2001-12-04 Auburn, MI | Wish Our Local Muni's Would Do The Same! All they ever do is re-sign Charter to exclusive deals....selling their constituents out. | |
|  |   marigolds Gainfully employed, finally Premium,MVM join:2002-05-13 Saint Louis, MO | Re: Wish Our Local Muni's Would Do The Same! They shouldn't be able to sign exclusive deals. Though normally the problem is that even without exclusivity no other companies will overbuild. | |
|   woody7 Premium join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA | Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... I wonder if this will catch on and not infuriate the cablecos and telcos.............just joking........and it seems to be paying its way.........let the misinformation begin........:-0 -- BlooMe | |
|  russotto
join:2000-10-05 Collegeville, PA | So what? I pay less than $17/month for phone service (from Verizon), so I don't see the great bargain there. | |
|  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting | Re: So what? I pay $50 a month for basic local service with CallerID (which accounts for a big chunk of that) only through Verizon. | |
|  |  |  vic102482 Premium join:2002-04-30 Upper Marlboro, MD
| Re: So what? said by Minister : I pay $50 a month for basic local service with CallerID (which accounts for a big chunk of that) only through Verizon.
Ditto.
For 17 dollars a month you get what? a styrofoam cup and a peice of string?:) -- I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
|  |  |  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting | Re: So what? Not even; the styrofoam would come with a "400% inflation fee" and the string would come with a mandatory surcharge of some kind. | |
|  |  |  |  |  vic102482 Premium join:2002-04-30 Upper Marlboro, MD
1 edit | Re: So what? said by Minister : Not even; the styrofoam would come with a "400% inflation fee" and the string would come with a mandatory surcharge of some kind.
I wonder if you can get DSL on that contraption....;)
Haha, seriously, 17 bucks a month. I wonder how in the fook he managed to work that out. -- I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  hottboiinnnc
join:2003-08-27 Fremont, OH | Re: So what? I have phone service at my other house with Verizon and their phone service for basic dial tone is only $15 in Ohio. But thats just the unlimited local calling...its less than that if you want to get charged by the minute. | |
|  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
2 edits | You must be on the lifeline program.
Here in FLA it is $12.10 for residential service (no bells & whistles), plus $6.50 subscriber line charge, plus the 9.5% to reimburse Verizon for what they paid into the USF (it varies), plus all the taxes. By the time your done being nickle and dimed to death it runs around $25.00 just for basic phone service. Not sure of the exact price since my addons rachet it up to $38.00 without long distance. | |
|  |  |  nshulga
join:2002-06-06 Morrisville, PA | Re: So what? My Verizon bill is $23. No caller id, unlisted, long-distance is separate. $30 for the same + caller id sounds reasonable, but not a bargain. | |
|  |  |  russotto
join:2000-10-05 Collegeville, PA
| $2.60 -- Local calling with allowance $5.28 -- Dial Tone Line - Residence - Touchtone $6.10 -- Federal Line Cost Charge $0.23 -- Local Number Portability Surcharge $0.59 -- Federal Universal Service Fund Surcharge $0.08 -- PA Relay Surcharge $1.00 -- Public Safety Emergency Telephone Act (9-1-1) Fee $0.45 -- Federal Tax -------- $16.33 | |
|  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
4 edits | Cry baby monopolists I agree with Charter and Bell South when they cry they shouldn't be competing with the same organizations that often wind up regulating them.
In areas where a municipal system is operated, all regulation except rules against "at less than cost" pricing should be removed.
The day that happens we will hear a collective "does anyone know how to compete" ring throughout the corporate halls of the whole telephone and cable industry.
Perhaps the communities with muni systems should tell the cable and telephone companies they are outsourcing their TV, internet and phone needs to the people of the community....:) | |
|  |   LegoPower77 Abecedarian Premium join:2002-08-03 Arlington, VA
| Re: Cry baby monopolists You make a good point, regulations are nothing more than barriers to entry. However, I disagree that so-called "less than cost" pricing should be illegal: people should be able to freely bargain in the open market. Besides, predatory pricing is a chimera, anyway. -- "Lunches don't get free just because you don't see the prices on the menu. And economists don't get popular by reminding people of that." --Thomas Sowell | |
|  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
1 edit | Re: Cry baby monopolists Without fair pricing protection an RBOC could use its vast monopoly generated financial power to undercut a muni and drive it out of business.
They have already claimed to numerous utility commissions what their costs are, and what their minimum prices should be to realize a profit. To go any lower than their claimed costs would only prove they had lied all along. | |
|  |  |  DonLibes Premium,ExMod 2001 join:2003-01-19
| said by LegoPower77 : You make a good point, regulations are nothing more than barriers to entry. However, I disagree that so-called "less than cost" pricing should be illegal: people should be able to freely bargain in the open market. Besides, predatory pricing is a chimera, anyway.
Then how do you prevent companies (and munis) with plenty of cash from taking short-term losses (due to temporary low rates) in order to drive out competition? | |
|  |  |  |   LegoPower77 Abecedarian Premium join:2002-08-03 Arlington, VA | Re: Cry baby monopolists Market contestability.
And the way to make markets contestable is to keep the government's greasy mitts out of business. | |
|  |  |  |  |  DonLibes Premium,ExMod 2001 join:2003-01-19
| Re: Cry baby monopolists said by LegoPower77 : Market contestability.
And the way to make markets contestable is to keep the government's greasy mitts out of business.
I don't see how that stops the scenario I brought up: two companies, one of which has the cash to drive the other out of business simply by dropping its rates long enough. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   LegoPower77 Abecedarian Premium join:2002-08-03 Arlington, VA
| Re: Cry baby monopolists That is simply not a feasible business practice. It's been tried before and those who do it end up getting their nose bloodied by it.
One reason is that say, company A drops its price to where it's taking a loss on production, company B can just stop production (economists can draw out the supply and demand curves where this takes place) and shut down until company A exhausts itself and it is forced to raise prices back up to "normal" rates.
Another reason is arbitrage. Product A is produced at output that incurs a loss, company B can simply buy product A and store it until again, company A is exhausted.
If company A is somehow miraculously able to drive company B out of bid'ness, the losing company's assets just don't disappear into thin air so they are still available for competitive use. (A bankrupt airline's airplanes don't self destruct just because the company files cpt 11.)
Now many will say that's all well and good, but telephone and sundry utilities are a different case. That's true as far as regulations and other artificial barriers to entry exist, but even in high-sunk cost markets (such as say, a gas pipeline or a broadband network), if there is not a lot of red tape, contestability is enough to keep it competitive.
That all being said, your whole premise is off because of the inherent problems of going to some regulatory board to enact by fiat a return on investment profit (ROI) output level. The problem with ROI pricing is that setting up a protected company (for the sake of stability) often stifles innovation and raises prices. (Nobel prize winning Vernon Smith writes an article on such regulation here.)
In reading that article, it's easy to see how the same analysis extends to telephone, broadband, basically any public utility. Also, as it was written in '96, it predicts the dire outcome of such ahem, "deregulation" as was attempted by California a few years ago. -- "Lunches don't get free just because you don't see the prices on the menu. And economists don't get popular by reminding people of that." --Thomas Sowell | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
| Re: Cry baby monopolists I would agree if you were talking to large companies like Verizon competing with Bell South for the same customer base. Your theory becomes flawed when a small muni serving an area with say 20,000 potential subscribers is competing against a Verizon sized company. The large corporation will have greater cash reserves and a significantly larger credit facility than the muni. There is simply no way a small muni could stop production and since we're talking no regulation line sharing would cease to exist, thus buying the competitors product is not an option. Forcing the muni out by under pricing would be a real threat in a completely unregulated environment. Imagine if the RBOC and Cable CO colluded to fix pricing, the muni would die even faster.
Isn't this pricing issue something that is already addressed in Anti Trust laws? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15 Everett, MA clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Cry baby monopolists said by lesopp : I would agree if you were talking to large companies like Verizon competing with Bell South for the same customer base. Your theory becomes flawed when a small muni serving an area with say 20,000 potential subscribers is competing against a Verizon sized company. The large corporation will have greater cash reserves and a significantly larger credit facility than the muni. There is simply no way a small muni could stop production and since we're talking no regulation line sharing would cease to exist, thus buying the competitors product is not an option. Forcing the muni out by under pricing would be a real threat in a completely unregulated environment. Imagine if the RBOC and Cable CO colluded to fix pricing, the muni would die even faster.
Isn't this pricing issue something that is already addressed in Anti Trust laws?
Kind of what your seeing now in the cable vs dsl debates cable pumps the bandwidth up and dsl lowers the prices. They are competing for 2 separate entities. I'd imagine the same would happen on the muni side as well. -- This package does not contain a winner... | |
|  |   marigolds Gainfully employed, finally Premium,MVM join:2002-05-13 Saint Louis, MO
| I would have to disagree with this... regulation is what insures that the phone and cable companies service all neighborhoods in a city, provide uniform pricing throughout the city, provide the same service options throughout a city, and actually carry public access signals. -- ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet telnet://whip.isca.uiowa.edu Member: American Association of Geographers, American Geophysical Union, American Water Resources Association | |
|  |   dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ
| said by lesopp : I agree with Charter and Bell South when they cry they shouldn't be competing with the same organizations that often wind up regulating them.
Charter and Bell South wouldnt have to worry about these 'muni' things if they gave decent service at fair prices and didnt nickel and dime you to death all along the way. -- You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
|  |   VWSpeedRacer
join:2002-10-06 Essex Junction, VT clubs:
| I agree that they shouldn't have to compete with their regulators, but maybe if they were there in the first place, instead of forcing the regulators to come up with their own service, they wouldn't have to deal with it. :P
Funny argument from these companies... sounds similar to the argument "we shouldn't have to compete with the companies that own the fiber." But wait - Charter and BS never had that complaint. Wonder who did... -- Daniel Gwozdz (VW Speed Racer)The Online Reader's Society --- Water-cooled Volkswagen World | |
|  CrazyJr
join:2003-02-27 Oakland, CA
| Bottom line. Newman joined the municipal push about seven years ago after failing to get BellSouth to upgrade deteriorating lines in the region. As Newman got into the broadband business, local competitors like Charter and BellSouth began to finally pay attention. Charter filed a lawsuit to prevent Newman from offering cable, and according to the Times, eventually wound up offering Newman residents as much as $300 to switch to Charter service.
It just never ceases to amaze me how these companies operate. Anything that threatens their bottom line is when they will go into action.
Charter and BellSouth argue they shouldn't be competing with the same organizations that often wind up regulating them. They also suggest that the munis have an unfair advantage, sometimes drawing from taxpayer funds to help fund operations.
If these companies would've done their job in the first place, then none of this would've happen. Charter, BellSouth, et al. need to wake up and smell the coffee. The times for sitting back and getting fat is probably over. | |
|  shadow520
join:2002-04-03 Warren, MI
1 edit | cash cow But then what happens when the muni starts to have budget deficits? Look for these low-prices utils to start to be a cash cow for the muni. The utility will start to subsidize the budget of the community because it won't be billed as a tax hike (usually known as political suicide).
However, I cannot blame them for starting their own utility. It is usually a lack of concern/improvements from the incumbent provider that got that ball rolling in the first place. If the service was already available (at a reasonable price), the community wouldn't have had any incentive to get involved.
Kinda a catch-22. However, anything that gets cable and telecom companies to compete is a good thing, at lease for now. | |
|   damonlab Premium join:2001-05-02 Detroit, MI clubs: 
| SBC/Ameritech offers this to Michigan residents: These are the basic prices for SBC/Ameritech phone and DSL packages for Michigan residents. Not much of a difference from the municipalities.
***ALL DISTANCE® Connections --- $43.95 All the nationwide direct-dialed long distance you want. Includes Call Plan Unlimited with unlimited local calling for $43.95 per month. In addition you will have our most popular calling features, Call Waiting, Caller ID with Name, and LINE BACKER Basic inside wire maintenance and Voicemail Plus.
***Call Plan Unlimited --------------- $12.31 - $14.31 Unlimited local calling for $12.31 - $14.31, plus great pricing on Discounted Packages.
***Call Plan 50 ---------------------- 50 calls for up to $11.24, 6.6¢ each addl call Place 50 local calls per month for up to $11.24, and pay 6.6¢ for each additional local call over the 50. Note that unlike the Flat Rate Service Calling Plan, the Call Plan 50 does not have a maximum monthly local phone charge, and so you should be aware of your monthly usage before making this selection.
***SBC Yahoo! DSL for Home ------- $26.95 | |
|  |  |  |  dsless
join:2001-05-16 Pittsburgh, PA | That type of package in West Virginia from Verizon is $72.00. Not that much of a bargin. I to far for DSL and the copper in our lines sucks. The only BB choice we have is Adelphia. The service is good but very pricey. | |
|  |  hottboiinnnc
join:2003-08-27 Fremont, OH
| those plans are with contract plans as well.. with the Long Distance connection you have to keep the service for 1 year which is a virable agreement. Which they usually dont tell you.. but its printed on their site. and the DSL service is limited due to when SBC started buying shares in Yahoo! they put a limit on the DSL feet/miles it will travel.. I was able to get it when it was just SBC-Ameritech but when it went SBC-Yahoo DSL i couldnt get it. now you have to live with in roughly 9,000 feet of the CO to get it and you MUST be an SBC customer.
Dont know about anyone else.. But after their bull shit they pull I couldn't keep them for a year for services! | |
|   themew
@24.197.x.x | Correction >> NEWNAN, GA ... not Newman. OP -- the town is Newnan, GA not Newman.
It's a large suburb south of Atlanta where all the Delta pilots live.
tHeMeW | |
|  |   NotAtAllHere
@bellsouth.net
| Re: Correction >> NEWNAN, GA ... not Newman. Being from GA,I second that its NEWNAN, NOT Newman. Plus it is more SW from ATL than South, along I-85. It is a town that was to be one of the points on the 2nd perimeter arc around Atlanta at one time. A friend of mine has had the I-485 proposal maps since the late 80's. This is from back when it was a small nowhere town and not yet considered a suburb.
But the Atlanta Metro Area is such a sprawling place these days, its no wonder that areas like that, and mine, are so behind in their communications infrastructure. During the 90's places like that had their population explode at an exponential rate, and companies like Comcast and Bellsouth are just now getting around to thinking about starting to update their lines and services there. Way to go guys.
Btw, if you live in another state, don't be absurd and reply that your services are "OH SO MUCH CHEAPER". You just don't damn apply. Right now in Georgia, thru Bellsouth, having phone service with the extras and DSL will run you right around the $100 mark, that doesn't include Comcast which will dump another 80 bucks on top of that bill. This is based on a family of 4 with at least 3 T.V's in the house wired and boxed for cable.
Newnan just made itself a more attractive place to live by doing this. | |
|  |  |   zabes63
join:2003-04-05 Batavia, IL | Re: Why isn't there a "Municipal" forum at BBR? There are some discussions about Muni Broadband on the Broadband Politics and Legislation forum. | |
|  djrobsd
join:2002-01-24 San Diego, CA
| Cox already offers similar value Compare The Savings Cox Services "A la carte" Cox Services (any 2 Cox services) Cox Combo Cox Combo Savings
Cox Standard Cable TV $39.95 $39.95 $39.95 Cox Digital Cable ($12 Package) $12.00 $12.00 $12.00 Digital Box w/Remote $3.00 $3.00 $3.00 Cox High Speed Internet $49.95 $39.95 $29.95 $20.00 Cable Modem Rental* $10.00 $10.00 $10.00 Cox Digital Telephone $10.69 $9.99 $9.99 $0.70 (primary line w/Cox Long Dist.)
TOTAL (w/modem rental) $125.89 $114.89 $104.89 $20.70
TOTAL (w/out modem rental) $115.59 $104.89 $94.89 $20.70
$94.89 for cable, phone, and internet, not bad eh? | |
|   Penguins Have You Played Atari Today?
join:2001-12-01 Cleveland, OH | Thats UNAMERICAN! Who will pay the CEO, the CFO, the Jr executives?
Who will pay for the ice sculptures that urinate vodka?
People banding together to meet thier own needs?
My god. -- Pure magic in 2k of 6502. | |
|   zabes63
join:2003-04-05 Batavia, IL | What Coulda Been The electorate in the Tri Cities looks dumber and dumber each month. | |
|  rid0617
join:2003-07-20 Greer, SC
| failed to provide I think the key to this is that Bellsouth & Charter failed to provide the service to begin with. All Newnan did was decide they would get these servics when its citizens wanted them, not when the utilities decided to offer them. Sounds to me like the utilities are just crying because they didn't get to make their killing on their timetable. | |
|   viperpa33s Why Me? Premium join:2002-12-20 Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| taxpayers end up footing the bill either way On one hand I don't agree what this town did. The government shouldn't be in the telecommunications business. On the other hand I have to agree with it. People are getting tired of being without. The companies get tax breaks at taxpayers expense and the taxpayers are the ones that get screwed as we seen in Pennsylvania.
If it takes a muni utility to get the cable companies and tele companies off there high horse than so be it. I understand that it costs money to run cable, and the man hours. I mean lets be real here, it takes money to make money. I know a guy who lives less than a mile from the center of town and he can't get cable or DSL.
What it has come down to is since the cable and tele companies didn't live up to there contract obligations the taxpayers are taking matters into there own hands. | |
|  |  hottboiinnnc
join:2003-08-27 Fremont, OH
| Re: taxpayers end up footing the bill either way If you dont believe Cities should be in the telecommunications business..then why should cable companies offer telephone services? Cox, ComCast and Time Warner Cable plus many more offer the service nation wide. and TWC just started offering it. Or why should Telco's become cable companies? AT&T was one with stock in TWC's Roadrunner, which is now part of ComCast and they are trying to sell the stock. and Ameritech also tried to offer cable services under the Ameritech Digital Cable name throughout their region in the Midwest which later sold the systems cause of the money they claimed to be losing. | |
|   FiftyEggs
@216.104.x.x
| Coup in Macon My community, Macon GA, just purchased a Nortel switch to begin providing phone service and DSL to the area. Sounds good and well until there was nearly a coup de tat with the mayor almost run out of town. This is the kind of resident angst that local govt interference calls forth. | |
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