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  Tzale Ron Paul - No Bailout Conservative Premium join:2004-01-06 NJ, USA | . What else is new... Screw the customer... Taxes are wrong.
-Tzale | |
|  |   tschmidt Premium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: . said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services?
/tom | |
|  |  |  MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09 Hammonton, NJ
edit: June 22nd, @12:41PM
| Re: . said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few. Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding. Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all. | |
|  |  |  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| Re: . said by MrSpock29 :When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few. Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding. Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all. This is a state tax... -- --- Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
|  |  |  |  |  MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09 Hammonton, NJ
| Re: . said by NetAdmin :said by MrSpock29 :When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few. Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding. Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all. This is a state tax... Yes, of course it is. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| Re: . said by MrSpock29 :said by NetAdmin :This is a state tax... Yes, of course it is. The only reason I mentioned it was because you were talking about the federal government and federal taxes... -- --- Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   jgkolt Premium join:2004-02-21 Lakewood, OH clubs:
| Re: . plus how prominent was telephones when the country was formed ehhhhh. maybe thats why you didnt see them mentioning telephone with mail and national defense. -- Learning how to invest? Sign up to get 3 free trades for you and for me each. PM me | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09 Hammonton, NJ
| said by NetAdmin :said by MrSpock29 :said by NetAdmin :This is a state tax... Yes, of course it is. The only reason I mentioned it was because you were talking about the federal government and federal taxes... I know, but I took the comment I was responding too as a generalization, and not really just about this tax. In fact, I took both comments that way. But I think there is a point made there in either instance. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  bicker
join:2007-05-10 Burlington, MA | The point is that our Founding Fathers limited the extent to which the federal government could tax, so as to leave the rest of context for the states. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   alanhdsl Premium join:1999-10-09 Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net
edit: June 22nd, @08:55PM
| said by MrSpock29 :
Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all. This is a myth. The Whiskey Rebellion in 1794 was over federal taxes on liquor.
If you're talking about the federal income tax specifically, it was first passed in 1861, 55 years before the 16th Amendment -- 3% of income over $800.
Contrary to popular belief, income taxes have always been legal. The 16th Amendment was in response to a Supreme Court ruling that income derived from rents and royalties was actually a property tax. The 16th overruled this by saying that income from "any source" could be taxed. Income from wages was still taxable during this time.
This of course has nothing to do with tax policy -- how much taxes and on what. That's a valid debate. But you should really understand the history correctly.
And it also has nothing to do with this tax, which is a state tax. Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there? | |
|  |  |  |  |   amarryat Verizon FiOS
join:2005-05-02 Marshfield, MA
| Re: . said by alanhdsl :Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there? Adjusted for general population growth of this country, and for illegal immigration, what does that number look like? The weather is probably a big factor, but you can probably find other states expecting more growth. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   alanhdsl Premium join:1999-10-09 Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net
| Re: . #1 in percentage growth is Nevada, they rank #39 overall in state taxes. Although they don't have an income tax, they have high sales and property taxes, along with business taxes (gambling).
Alaska has the lowest personal state taxes, but they take in a lot in business (oil) taxes. Next lowest taxes are Mississippi, Montana, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and South Dakota.
On the other hand, biggest growth is in Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and Oregon.
Population figures: »www.census.gov/population/www/pr···sex.html Tax figures: »www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/387.html
Montana has its charm, but all said I'd rather live in California or New York (#1 and #2 in taxes). | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  nozzer
join:2004-06-25 Waltham, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: . said by alanhdsl :Alaska has the lowest personal state taxes, but they take in a lot in business (oil) taxes. Next lowest taxes are Mississippi, Montana, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and South Dakota. That list reads like a who's who of dirt poor states. I'd like to see far less of my FEDERAL taxes going to support these places, that on the whole take far more back than they give. MS takes 2.80 from Washington for every 1.00 it collects. Here in MA we get back .60 for every dollar. The rest goes to support those places that dont raise enough local tax to pay for essentials. We'd be better off seceding | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  EngineerDave
join:2001-08-27 Hattiesburg, MS | Re: . Where did you get this data? | |
|  |  |  |  |   Anon1
@seic.com
| Its the apportionment clause that is the real killer in the 16th amendment: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Before this, the USCon stated, "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States..."
"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken." | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   alanhdsl Premium join:1999-10-09 Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net
| Re: . said by Anon1 :
Its the apportionment clause that is the real killer in the 16th amendment: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Before this, the USCon stated, "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States..."
"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken." That's correct, though I think the scope isn't the "killer" you say it is, as it's restricted to taxes on income. The Supreme Court said that that taxes on income derived from property, like rents and royalties, were actually direct taxes and thus subject to apportionment. The 16th moved those back into the class of income rather than direct taxes and thus not subject to apportionment. Taxes on other forms of income, such as wages, were unaffected by the whole thing. | |
|  |  |  |  |   pog Premium join:2004-06-03 Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| said by alanhdsl :... Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there? I wonder what proportion of those 12.5 million people go to CA with the express purpose of living off of social programs supported by those tax dollars.
IOW, it wouldn't surprise me if CA is attracting more than their share of welfare cases, illegal aliens, etc. -- My Site | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   alanhdsl Premium join:1999-10-09 Phoenix, AZ | Re: . California is #12 in median household income, New York is #19. This is the median, so a few Michael Eisners can't skew it high. Lowest is our low-tax nirvana, Mississippi. Alaska is the only low-tax state that ranked high. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   Tsume BOBBARR2008 .COM
join:2004-02-23 Winter Park, FL
·ViaTalk
·Cox HSI
| Re: . But it really should be #1 to scale properly with the taxes =/
I think that data helps the argument of the moochers flocking over to Cali since it's so easy to hop on the welfare/foodstamp/WIC/low income housing/etc train.
I worked with this mexican dude who had 2 kids. He was living off of food stamps, had a low income housing place in a very nice development in San Marcos (which he all got by not listing his wife's income on the app), but made 12/hr full time with overtime. He was able to afford a brand new civic SI with all the insurance very easily, with much money left over for booze.
The system really needs fixing. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  wierdo
join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| Re: . said by Tsume :The system really needs fixing. The system is fine, aside from the liars. Somehow I doubt your coworker would have done so well were it not for the second income from his wife.
Besides, a Civic SI does not cost nearly as much as you think it does..it's only a $20,000 car, which on a 60 month loan is only about $350 a month.
What I find disturbing is that you think that $12/hr is enough to get by with two children. Well, that and you felt the need to mention he was Mexican, which really has no bearing on your story. I've seen plenty of poor white folk who game the system, as well as plenty who refuse to accept assistance, even when they're in dire need. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: . When food and rent are subsidized by others, $12 is obviously enough to get by on, and even thrive. The "poor" today in America are better off than anywhere else in the world at any time. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pog Premium join:2004-06-03 Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| Re: . I'm sure it varies around the country but it's too hard to sum up the "user experience" into one neat little package. Too many holes where certain classes of people are left out... as well as a LOT (I mean a LOT!) of benefits that overlap or do not take anything else into account.
Here in Hawaii, we have QUEST that provides gov sponsored health coverage to those that meet income/asset limits. Comparable dependent coverage is between $150-$600 depending on one's employer, number of dependents and the employer's available plan.
HUD provides housing vouchers based on family size charging no more than 1/3 of ones income for rent but approving suitable housing based on family size. A single mom with children of both sexes is likely to get approved for a 3 or more bedroom house... going rate for that is easily $1400 and up (and up). If mom pulls in $900 a month, she's charged $300.
Certain welfare programs also provide vehicle insurance, bus passes, food stamps, free after school programs, baby sitting, day care, school tuition, free school lunches, local utility bill relief, medical co-payments reduced or eliminated, etc.
The point is that if all these benefits are added up, many recipients would need to earn $60k-$75k+ in gross wages to actually pay everything for themselves.
The people who get left out are usually homeless (mental illness, drug abuse) or are those who try to get off the system one step at a time only to find that their benefits dry up with just a tiny increase in income. I literally have had employees refuse extra work just because it would jeopardize their benefits.
I don't have a problem with the fact that these services are available for people in need... I would just like a more cohesive accounting system AND some realistic goals/understandings in terms of self-sufficiency. -- My Site | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  wierdo
join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| Re: . Wow, they got some programs there in Hawaii. The best we can do is Medicaid for the young and destitute, a few subsidized apartment complexes, and food stamps. Oh, and they have free lunch at school and occasional "free clinic" days at the health department.
BTW, "disconnected," you're quite wrong in your central thesis. Man has always lived in somewhat collective societies. Loners are idolized, but practically nonexistent throughout history. We have been tribal since we left the trees. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
|  |  |  |  |   TechieZero Tools Are Using Me Premium join:2002-01-25 Wesley Chapel, FL
| said by alanhdsl :And it also has nothing to do with this tax, which is a state tax. Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there? Being surrounded by ex-Cali folk right now, I think you got this wrong. In fact I am noticing you don't live there as well. Even the movie companies are migrating. | |
|  |  |  |   disconnected
@snet.net
| Morally speaking, the only just purpose and scope of government is to protect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. That is implemented by a military to protect from foreign invasion, a police force to protect individuals from initiation of force by other individuals, and a court system to settle contract disputes among individuals and corporations. All other forms of government are improper, and are responsible for the widening noose of collectivism on individual rights and freedoms. Man was never meant to be a collective being. Collectivism is counter to man's nature, hence in ever society where it is force, there is conflict, violence and war. | |
|  |  |  |  |  bicker
join:2007-05-10 Burlington, MA
| Scope of Government said by disconnected :
Morally speaking, the only just purpose and scope of government is to protect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. That's incorrect. The purpose and scope of government is to foster and protect society as a whole. Individual rights are respected within that context. Remember that the Bill of Rights was an add-on to the US Constitution. It is a credit to the United States that it does place so much emphasis on individual rights, but it is NOT the sole purpose and scope of government. | |
|  |  |  just_4_fun Premium join:2000-10-18 Trenton, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
| said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom Hes from NJ, he knows if Massachusetts is anything like NJ they will only waste it anyway. Its very simple if they dont get it they cant waste it. NJ got casino gaming and the lottery very early on and even with those key assets every year at this time the state cries broke only to raise taxes on the middle class. A few years ago it was the added shore/motel tax, then the 1% sales tax increase plus additional tax increases. This year they proposed toll tax increase which is perfect with the gas prices. With any luck this year we will have another State shutdown and never reopen
. | |
|  |  |  |  MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09 Hammonton, NJ
| Re: . said by just_4_fun :said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom Hes from NJ, he knows if Massachusetts is anything like NJ they will only waste it anyway. Its very simple if they dont get it they cant waste it. NJ got casino gaming and the lottery very early on and even with those key assets every year at this time the state cries broke only to raise taxes on the middle class. A few years ago it was the added shore/motel tax, then the 1% sales tax increase plus additional tax increases. This year they proposed toll tax increase which is perfect with the gas prices. With any luck this year we will have another State shutdown and never reopen
. Yeah, don't you love how they raised one tax (sales) to use part of that revenue for tax relief elsewhere? (property)
Only in NJ is it considered good policy to raise one tax to cut another......... | |
|  |  |  |  |  just_4_fun Premium join:2000-10-18 Trenton, NJ | Re: . Since Brendan Byrne going forward its been all down hill however Cozine & McGreedy have to be the worst | |
|  |  |  |   MrMoody Beleaguered Middle Class
join:2002-09-03 Smithfield, NC
·Embarq
| said by just_4_fun :It's very simple if they don't get it they can't waste it. Wrong! Just ask GW. Of course states don't have unlimited borrowing power though ... -- The public is a poor business manager. | |
|  |  |  |  |  just_4_fun Premium join:2000-10-18 Trenton, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
edit: June 22nd, @04:48PM
| Re: . said by MrMoody :said by just_4_fun :It's very simple if they don't get it they can't waste it. Wrong! Just ask GW. Of course states don't have unlimited borrowing power though ... Obviously you dont know anything about NJ, once Trenton gets it they will waste it. That's why many NJ folks move once they retire, they can't afford to live here on a fixed income.
EDIT: For your perusal »www.nj.com/corruption/stories/in···ery.html | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   MrMoody Beleaguered Middle Class
join:2002-09-03 Smithfield, NC | Re: . My point was, they don't need to actually get it in order to waste it ... borrow and spend! -- The public is a poor business manager. | |
|  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | By cutting services.
The problem is gov't spends like a bunch of drunken sailors. If they would at least make a small effort to control their spending, they wouldn't need to endlessly raise taxes. | |
|  |  |  Ulmo
join:2005-09-22 San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET
| said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom I say reduce the government services to a point that the taxation is reasonable.
Start with welfare and schools. | |
|  |  |   jbob Reach Out and Touch Someone Premium join:2004-04-26 Little Rock, AR
·Comcast
·AT&T Southwest
| said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom Taxing by the government should be for government services. The public utility structures were put in place and paid for by the public utilities to support business. They are not provided by government services. This would be like taxation without representation. Similar to what NY does by taxing telecommuters who do not live in NY. | |
|  |  |   n2jtx
join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom The income tax works well. All Massachusetts is doing is taxing the people in a roundabout (I know they call them Rotaries) way. -- I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
|  |  |  lets456
join:2008-01-21 Hainesport, NJ
| said by tschmidt :said by Tzale :Taxes are wrong. So how do you propose funding government services? /tom By cutting back on all the FAT and illegal use of tax payers money!!!
If I ran my business like the state of NJ or MA I'd be out of business in 6 months!!! | |
|  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| said by Tzale :What else is new... Screw the customer... Excessive, unneeded Taxes are wrong. Tweaked it for you...
The big problem with this is that the poles have already been "taxed" in the form of the fees required for the ROW that are paid by these companies. In essence, this is a double dip. -- --- Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
|  |  |   morbo Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22 00000 clubs: | Re: . consider it retaliation for "un-fees" | |
|  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| this is more of a Double Screw on the customer. the taxes get mixed into the phone bill, on top of the existing taxes the customer is already charged for their services and the unfees. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  TBC1
join:2002-05-31 Ft Mitchell, KY
·Insight Communicat..
| said by Tzale :What else is new... Screw the customer... Taxes are wrong. -Tzale But why should telcos be exempt where other utilities are not from these taxes? Besides, it isn't saying they're raising the tax on the customers, just the companies. If the company tries to raise its rates to offset the cost, the customer has a choice (usually) another telco that may be less expensive. | |
|  |  |   major marco Res Firma Mitescere Nescit Premium join:2003-02-13 Mission Viejo, CA clubs: | In Other News A sparrow farted this morning while sitting on a wire attached to a telephone pole owned by the telephone company. The telephone company has indicated that it plans to pass along the costs to customers. | |
|  |   CarterStClai X-Out The W
join:2002-04-17 Sugar Land, TX | Re: In Other News They should challenge the assesed value of the pole now that the smell is lingering. | |
|  George Kidd
join:2001-08-09 Vancouver, BC
| VRADs etc. Wait a minute... If you have a VRAD or the such like sitting on your property then why shouldn't you be allowed to collect a "Tax".  | |
|  |  james1
join:2001-02-26 antarctica
| Re: VRADs etc. Because that would make too much sense. | |
|  |   pog Premium join:2004-06-03 Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| What's worse than not collecting? Being forced to pay this new tax, passed on to you by the telco, for equipment/poles that sit on your property!
Sadly, I think this is exactly what will happen. -- My Site | |
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