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story category Massachusetts Begins Taxing Phone Company Poles
Verizon is fighting the charges in court and customers could pay the cost
12:08PM Sunday Jun 22 2008 by KathrynV
tags: legal · business · wireless · Verizon Online DSL
Communities throughout the state of Massachusetts are working to find ways to increase their revenue and one of those ways is to begin taxing phone companies for the poles and equipment that they place on public property. Previously telephone companies had been exempt from this tax despite the fact that other businesses, such as electric companies, have had to pay it. Earlier this year, a ruling found that there was no reason the phone companies couldn’t be taxed as well. Verizon has argued that the tax exemption is necessary to encourage network expansion and is appealing this ruling to the State Supreme Court. The cities are allowed to begin taxing the equipment but must hold the money in escrow until the court case is complete. The phone companies have indicated that they plan to pass the cost of these taxes on to customers.

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Tzale
Ron Paul - No Bailout Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA

.

What else is new... Screw the customer... Taxes are wrong.

-Tzale

tschmidt
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Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: .

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
MrSpock29

join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ


edit:
June 22nd, @12:41PM

Re: .

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few.
Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding.
Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all.

NetAdmin

join:2008-05-22

Re: .

said by MrSpock29 See Profile :

When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few.
Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding.
Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all.
This is a state tax...
--
---
Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat...
MrSpock29

join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ

Re: .

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by MrSpock29 See Profile :

When the country was founded, the Fed. gov't was supposed to provide basic fundamental services, like delivering the mail, national defense, and the Treasury, to name a few.
Maybe there are just too many gov't services that require funding.
Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all.
This is a state tax...
Yes, of course it is.

NetAdmin

join:2008-05-22

Re: .

said by MrSpock29 See Profile :

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

This is a state tax...
Yes, of course it is.
The only reason I mentioned it was because you were talking about the federal government and federal taxes...
--
---
Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat...

jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Lakewood, OH
clubs:

Re: .

plus how prominent was telephones when the country was formed ehhhhh. maybe thats why you didnt see them mentioning telephone with mail and national defense.
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MrSpock29

join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by MrSpock29 See Profile :

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

This is a state tax...
Yes, of course it is.
The only reason I mentioned it was because you were talking about the federal government and federal taxes...
I know, but I took the comment I was responding too as a generalization, and not really just about this tax. In fact, I took both comments that way. But I think there is a point made there in either instance.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
The point is that our Founding Fathers limited the extent to which the federal government could tax, so as to leave the rest of context for the states.
degauss1

join:2001-07-02
Hillsboro, OR
·Axvoice
·Comcast
·ViaTalk

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

This is a state tax...
No, it appears it's a bunch of cities levying taxes.

Isn't this type of payment usually part of a franchise agreement in order to use the ROW on those poles?

Sounds like cities getting greedy to me.

alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net


edit:
June 22nd, @08:55PM

said by MrSpock29 :

Before the 16th amendment, there were no Fed. taxes. When they were implemented, it was 1% for all.
This is a myth. The Whiskey Rebellion in 1794 was over federal taxes on liquor.

If you're talking about the federal income tax specifically, it was first passed in 1861, 55 years before the 16th Amendment -- 3% of income over $800.

Contrary to popular belief, income taxes have always been legal. The 16th Amendment was in response to a Supreme Court ruling that income derived from rents and royalties was actually a property tax. The 16th overruled this by saying that income from "any source" could be taxed. Income from wages was still taxable during this time.

This of course has nothing to do with tax policy -- how much taxes and on what. That's a valid debate. But you should really understand the history correctly.

And it also has nothing to do with this tax, which is a state tax. Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there?

amarryat
Verizon FiOS

join:2005-05-02
Marshfield, MA

Re: .

said by alanhdsl See Profile :

Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there?
Adjusted for general population growth of this country, and for illegal immigration, what does that number look like? The weather is probably a big factor, but you can probably find other states expecting more growth.

alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net

Re: .

#1 in percentage growth is Nevada, they rank #39 overall in state taxes. Although they don't have an income tax, they have high sales and property taxes, along with business taxes (gambling).

Alaska has the lowest personal state taxes, but they take in a lot in business (oil) taxes. Next lowest taxes are Mississippi, Montana, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and South Dakota.

On the other hand, biggest growth is in Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and Oregon.

Population figures: »www.census.gov/population/www/pr···sex.html
Tax figures: »www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/387.html

Montana has its charm, but all said I'd rather live in California or New York (#1 and #2 in taxes).
nozzer

join:2004-06-25
Waltham, MA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: .

said by alanhdsl See Profile :

Alaska has the lowest personal state taxes, but they take in a lot in business (oil) taxes. Next lowest taxes are Mississippi, Montana, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and South Dakota.

That list reads like a who's who of dirt poor states. I'd like to see far less of my FEDERAL taxes going to support these places, that on the whole take far more back than they give. MS takes 2.80 from Washington for every 1.00 it collects. Here in MA we get back .60 for every dollar. The rest goes to support those places that dont raise enough local tax to pay for essentials. We'd be better off seceding
EngineerDave

join:2001-08-27
Hattiesburg, MS

Re: .

Where did you get this data?

Anon1

@seic.com

Its the apportionment clause that is the real killer in the 16th amendment:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Before this, the USCon stated,
"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States..."

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net

Re: .

said by Anon1 :

Its the apportionment clause that is the real killer in the 16th amendment:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Before this, the USCon stated,
"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States..."

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."
That's correct, though I think the scope isn't the "killer" you say it is, as it's restricted to taxes on income. The Supreme Court said that that taxes on income derived from property, like rents and royalties, were actually direct taxes and thus subject to apportionment. The 16th moved those back into the class of income rather than direct taxes and thus not subject to apportionment. Taxes on other forms of income, such as wages, were unaffected by the whole thing.

pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom

said by alanhdsl See Profile :

... Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there?
I wonder what proportion of those 12.5 million people go to CA with the express purpose of living off of social programs supported by those tax dollars.

IOW, it wouldn't surprise me if CA is attracting more than their share of welfare cases, illegal aliens, etc.
--
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alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ

Re: .

California is #12 in median household income, New York is #19. This is the median, so a few Michael Eisners can't skew it high. Lowest is our low-tax nirvana, Mississippi. Alaska is the only low-tax state that ranked high.

Tsume
BOBBARR2008 .COM

join:2004-02-23
Winter Park, FL
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Re: .

But it really should be #1 to scale properly with the taxes =/

I think that data helps the argument of the moochers flocking over to Cali since it's so easy to hop on the welfare/foodstamp/WIC/low income housing/etc train.

I worked with this mexican dude who had 2 kids. He was living off of food stamps, had a low income housing place in a very nice development in San Marcos (which he all got by not listing his wife's income on the app), but made 12/hr full time with overtime. He was able to afford a brand new civic SI with all the insurance very easily, with much money left over for booze.

The system really needs fixing.
wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
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Re: .

said by Tsume See Profile :

The system really needs fixing.
The system is fine, aside from the liars. Somehow I doubt your coworker would have done so well were it not for the second income from his wife.

Besides, a Civic SI does not cost nearly as much as you think it does..it's only a $20,000 car, which on a 60 month loan is only about $350 a month.

What I find disturbing is that you think that $12/hr is enough to get by with two children. Well, that and you felt the need to mention he was Mexican, which really has no bearing on your story. I've seen plenty of poor white folk who game the system, as well as plenty who refuse to accept assistance, even when they're in dire need.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

Re: .

When food and rent are subsidized by others, $12 is obviously enough to get by on, and even thrive. The "poor" today in America are better off than anywhere else in the world at any time.
wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
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edit:
June 23rd, @04:33PM

Re: .

said by jester121 See Profile :

When food and rent are subsidized by others, $12 is obviously enough to get by on, and even thrive. The "poor" today in America are better off than anywhere else in the world at any time.
Even subsidized housing isn't that cheap, and you're not thinking of the two children. Children are expensive, in many more ways than just food. Can one "get by?" Sure. Can one afford things like health care? No.

$12 an hour today is like making $9 an hour in 1998. I would not say that any of the people I know who were making $9 an hour in 1998 were more than just scraping by.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom

Re: .

I'm sure it varies around the country but it's too hard to sum up the "user experience" into one neat little package. Too many holes where certain classes of people are left out... as well as a LOT (I mean a LOT!) of benefits that overlap or do not take anything else into account.

Here in Hawaii, we have QUEST that provides gov sponsored health coverage to those that meet income/asset limits. Comparable dependent coverage is between $150-$600 depending on one's employer, number of dependents and the employer's available plan.

HUD provides housing vouchers based on family size charging no more than 1/3 of ones income for rent but approving suitable housing based on family size. A single mom with children of both sexes is likely to get approved for a 3 or more bedroom house... going rate for that is easily $1400 and up (and up). If mom pulls in $900 a month, she's charged $300.

Certain welfare programs also provide vehicle insurance, bus passes, food stamps, free after school programs, baby sitting, day care, school tuition, free school lunches, local utility bill relief, medical co-payments reduced or eliminated, etc.

The point is that if all these benefits are added up, many recipients would need to earn $60k-$75k+ in gross wages to actually pay everything for themselves.

The people who get left out are usually homeless (mental illness, drug abuse) or are those who try to get off the system one step at a time only to find that their benefits dry up with just a tiny increase in income. I literally have had employees refuse extra work just because it would jeopardize their benefits.

I don't have a problem with the fact that these services are available for people in need... I would just like a more cohesive accounting system AND some realistic goals/understandings in terms of self-sufficiency.
--
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wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
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Re: .

Wow, they got some programs there in Hawaii. The best we can do is Medicaid for the young and destitute, a few subsidized apartment complexes, and food stamps. Oh, and they have free lunch at school and occasional "free clinic" days at the health department.

BTW, "disconnected," you're quite wrong in your central thesis. Man has always lived in somewhat collective societies. Loners are idolized, but practically nonexistent throughout history. We have been tribal since we left the trees.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

TechieZero
Tools Are Using Me
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join:2002-01-25
Wesley Chapel, FL

said by alanhdsl See Profile :

And it also has nothing to do with this tax, which is a state tax. Despite having some of the highest taxes in the country, California's population is expected to increase by 12.5 million by 2030. If it's so terrible, why does everyone want to move there?
Being surrounded by ex-Cali folk right now, I think you got this wrong. In fact I am noticing you don't live there as well. Even the movie companies are migrating.

disconnected

@snet.net

Morally speaking, the only just purpose and scope of government is to protect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. That is implemented by a military to protect from foreign invasion, a police force to protect individuals from initiation of force by other individuals, and a court system to settle contract disputes among individuals and corporations. All other forms of government are improper, and are responsible for the widening noose of collectivism on individual rights and freedoms. Man was never meant to be a collective being. Collectivism is counter to man's nature, hence in ever society where it is force, there is conflict, violence and war.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Scope of Government

said by disconnected :

Morally speaking, the only just purpose and scope of government is to protect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.
That's incorrect. The purpose and scope of government is to foster and protect society as a whole. Individual rights are respected within that context. Remember that the Bill of Rights was an add-on to the US Constitution. It is a credit to the United States that it does place so much emphasis on individual rights, but it is NOT the sole purpose and scope of government.
just_4_fun
Premium
join:2000-10-18
Trenton, NJ
·Verizon FIOS

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
He’s from NJ, he knows if Massachusetts is anything like NJ they will only waste it anyway. It’s very simple if they don’t get it they can’t waste it. NJ got casino gaming and the lottery very early on and even with those key assets every year at this time the state cries broke only to raise taxes on the middle class. A few years ago it was the added shore/motel tax, then the 1% sales tax increase plus additional tax increases. This year they proposed toll tax increase which is perfect with the gas prices. With any luck this year we will have another State shutdown and never reopen….
MrSpock29

join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ

Re: .

said by just_4_fun See Profile :

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
He’s from NJ, he knows if Massachusetts is anything like NJ they will only waste it anyway. It’s very simple if they don’t get it they can’t waste it. NJ got casino gaming and the lottery very early on and even with those key assets every year at this time the state cries broke only to raise taxes on the middle class. A few years ago it was the added shore/motel tax, then the 1% sales tax increase plus additional tax increases. This year they proposed toll tax increase which is perfect with the gas prices. With any luck this year we will have another State shutdown and never reopen….
Yeah, don't you love how they raised one tax (sales) to use part of that revenue for tax relief elsewhere? (property)

Only in NJ is it considered good policy to raise one tax to cut another.........
just_4_fun
Premium
join:2000-10-18
Trenton, NJ

Re: .

Since Brendan Byrne going forward it’s been all down hill however Cozine & McGreedy have to be the worst

MrMoody
Beleaguered Middle Class

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
·Embarq

said by just_4_fun See Profile :

It's very simple if they don't get it they can't waste it.
Wrong! Just ask GW. Of course states don't have unlimited borrowing power though ...
--
The public is a poor business manager.
just_4_fun
Premium
join:2000-10-18
Trenton, NJ
·Verizon FIOS


edit:
June 22nd, @04:48PM

Re: .

said by MrMoody See Profile :

said by just_4_fun See Profile :

It's very simple if they don't get it they can't waste it.
Wrong! Just ask GW. Of course states don't have unlimited borrowing power though ...
Obviously you don’t know anything about NJ, once Trenton gets it they will waste it. That's why many NJ folks move once they retire, they can't afford to live here on a fixed income.

EDIT:
For your perusal
»www.nj.com/corruption/stories/in···ery.html

MrMoody
Beleaguered Middle Class

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC

Re: .

My point was, they don't need to actually get it in order to waste it ... borrow and spend!
--
The public is a poor business manager.

Skeedatl
Ah, push it - push it real good
Premium
join:2007-12-26
The Cloud
By cutting services.

The problem is gov't spends like a bunch of drunken sailors. If they would at least make a small effort to control their spending, they wouldn't need to endlessly raise taxes.
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
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said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
I say reduce the government services to a point that the taxation is reasonable.

Start with welfare and schools.

jbob
Reach Out and Touch Someone
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Little Rock, AR
·Comcast
·AT&T Southwest

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
Taxing by the government should be for government services. The public utility structures were put in place and paid for by the public utilities to support business. They are not provided by government services. This would be like taxation without representation. Similar to what NY does by taxing telecommuters who do not live in NY.

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
The income tax works well. All Massachusetts is doing is taxing the people in a roundabout (I know they call them Rotaries) way.
--
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lets456

join:2008-01-21
Hainesport, NJ

said by tschmidt See Profile :

said by Tzale See Profile :

Taxes are wrong.
So how do you propose funding government services?

/tom
By cutting back on all the FAT and illegal use of tax payers money!!!

If I ran my business like the state of NJ or MA I'd be out of business in 6 months!!!

NetAdmin

join:2008-05-22

said by Tzale See Profile :

What else is new... Screw the customer... Excessive, unneeded Taxes are wrong.
Tweaked it for you...

The big problem with this is that the poles have already been "taxed" in the form of the fees required for the ROW that are paid by these companies. In essence, this is a double dip.
--
---
Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat...

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

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00000
clubs:

Re: .

consider it retaliation for "un-fees"
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard

join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

this is more of a Double Screw on the customer. the taxes get mixed into the phone bill, on top of the existing taxes the customer is already charged for their services and the unfees.
--
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TBC1

join:2002-05-31
Ft Mitchell, KY
·Insight Communicat..

said by Tzale See Profile :

What else is new... Screw the customer... Taxes are wrong.

-Tzale
But why should telcos be exempt where other utilities are not from these taxes? Besides, it isn't saying they're raising the tax on the customers, just the companies. If the company tries to raise its rates to offset the cost, the customer has a choice (usually) another telco that may be less expensive.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

Companies dont want to pay ANY of the costs of running THEIR business anymore
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
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join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs:

In Other News

A sparrow farted this morning while sitting on a wire attached to a telephone pole owned by the telephone company. The telephone company has indicated that it plans to pass along the costs to customers.

CarterStClai
X-Out The W

join:2002-04-17
Sugar Land, TX

Re: In Other News

They should challenge the assesed value of the pole now that the smell is lingering.
George Kidd

join:2001-08-09
Vancouver, BC

VRADs etc.

Wait a minute... If you have a VRAD or the such like sitting on your property then why shouldn't you be allowed to collect a "Tax".
james1

join:2001-02-26
antarctica

Re: VRADs etc.

said by George Kidd See Profile :

Wait a minute... If you have a VRAD or the such like sitting on your property then why shouldn't you be allowed to collect a "Tax".
Because that would make too much sense.

pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom

What's worse than not collecting? Being forced to pay this new tax, passed on to you by the telco, for equipment/poles that sit on your property!

Sadly, I think this is exactly what will happen.
--
My Site
wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
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said by George Kidd See Profile :

Wait a minute... If you have a VRAD or the such like sitting on your property then why shouldn't you be allowed to collect a "Tax".
If it's not in the utility easement, and you don't take service from the company who placed it, you can. It'