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story category If ISPs Meter, Who Verifies Meter Accuracy?
The ISPs? No thanks...
(old news - 04:06PM Wednesday May 06 2009)
tags: legal · prices · business · bandwidth · Op/Ed · consumers
Despite the recent consumer victory over Time Warner Cable, the holy grail of metered broadband billing is something carriers simply aren't going to let go of. While there is absolutely no data to support the argument that billing by the byte is necessary given the dropping cost of providing broadband, the potential profit is simply too tempting. Todd Barnard of ZatzNotFunny raises a good question: if carriers are going to insist on meters, who verifies the meters are accurate? Notes Barnard:
The next time you are filling up your car at the gas station, look on the pump. There is a small sticker that says “Certified accurate”, or something to that effect, most likely from your state’s Weights & Measurements department. Laws dating back to the early 1900s were put into place to ensure Consumer protection from fraudulent dispensing of gasoline, and are still proving their worth to this day.
Click for full size
Despite some substantial differences, ISPs eager to bill by the byte love to compare broadband to electrical utilities, where meters are heavily regulated. Carriers that have spent millions in lobbying fees to remove regulation aren't going to be particularly keen on new government rules.

At the same time, consumers aren't going to want to pay for ad and malware bandwidth, and they're going to want ISP totals to match their routers. Something has to break in that equation. Barnard raises some interesting questions about how a regulated meter system would also impact network neutrality:
When electricity arrives at your home, after passing through the meter, the influence of your local power company ends. What devices and appliances you use is out of the of control of the utility provider. . . In a post metered bandwidth billing world, the ISPs will no longer have any right to dictate what physical devices are making use of the data after passing through the meter, as described in the FCC’s long delayed yet to be implemented “Plug and Play” law.
This may not be a conversation that incumbent ISPs are particularly interested in having, given their positions on net neutrality regulation, and the fact that at the moment they enjoy a significant amount of regulatory freedom under the classification of being "information services." Mega-carriers today by nature are terrified of being "dumb pipe" carriers who simply provide bandwidth. This metered billing push could ensure that's exactly what they become.

If ISPs want to bill by the byte (and again, there is no data to suggest this is necessary, and there are other ways to manage heavy users that don't involve charging 2000% markups on bandwidth), they should be ready to face new regulation confirming that their bandwidth measurements are accurate. They should also be prepared for regulation ensuring they aren't interfering with the quality of pure bandwidth they're delivering to each home.

Related:
  1. Why Are ISPs Still Advertising Limited Services As Unlimited?
  2. Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
  3. Verizon's New Wireless Pricing Is An Insult
  4. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  5. Per-Byte Broadband Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable
  6. AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
  7. FCC Study: Open Access Lowers Prices, Improves Competition
  8. Mandatory Smartphone Data Plans Seem Hypocritical
Forums » If ISPs Meter, Who Verifies Meter Accuracy?
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Easy

Nobody!

MalibuMaxx

join:2007-02-06
Chesterton, IN

my router

they'd have to match the bandwidth report on my ddwrt router...

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: my router

said by MalibuMaxx See Profile :

they'd have to match the bandwidth report on my ddwrt router...
It should technically end up being a bit lower, as they should only be polling the unicast octets in / octets out SNMP OIDs. Raw interface stats on a ddwrt/Tomato/etc device tend to include broadcast frames in their numbers.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Re: my router

said by espaeth See Profile :

It should technically end up being a bit lower, as they should only be polling the unicast octets in / octets out SNMP OIDs. Raw interface stats on a ddwrt/Tomato/etc device tend to include broadcast frames in their numbers.
But all those braodcast frames are tying up their valuable bandwidth! I full expect people will be charged for all bits that they consume, whether it's actual data, protocol/network overhead, and including corrupted packets.

maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

said by MalibuMaxx See Profile :

they'd have to match the bandwidth report on my ddwrt router...
And what makes DD-WRT correct? Don't get me wrong, I like DD-WRT, and use it myself, but ANY software can be buggy, including any releases of DD-WRT.

On top of that, it is possible to reset the counter easily, and if you honestly forgot you reset the counter on April 10th, and on May 12th you are getting your April bill.... you are going to have a fuss.

I don't know what the solution is.... but as a gesture of goodwill, they could round DOWN to the nearest 5 Gb mark, e.g. if you downloaded 48 Gb, you will round down to 45, and only get charged for 5, if the cap is 40.

Of course don't get me started on how rediculously LOW that cap is.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:

F this

and will they subtract all advertisements from my quota?

my year 2000 internet is starting to look better everyday
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20


1 edit

Re: F this

said by DataRiker See Profile :

and will they subtract all advertisements from my quota?
... why should they? Your computer pulled it in from a site that you requested. That's the same thing as saying you shouldn't have to pay for hold and call routing times when you call a company long distance on a metered service.

But, in the end, it doesn't matter becuase metered billing isn't needed.
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL


1 edit

Re: F this

While I agree generally with your comments about the ads, when the provider is involved, serving or otherwise has financial interest in the ad it gets a bit more complex. Not quite as extreme, but it would be like a cell phone carrier sending a SMS ad to you and then charging you for the SMS message.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

When you're talking about stuff coming from the provider's site, sure. I had a feeling that this one would come up.

The only thing I could counter that with is simply put, if you're logging onto a provider's site from their line, they direct you to a non-ad served site. Or, the other thing would be that you still have the option NOT to visit their site as well. But, I do agree with double dipping being wrong.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:


2 edits

Re: F this

said by fiberguy See Profile :

When you're talking about stuff coming from the provider's site, sure. I had a feeling that this one would come up.

The only thing I could counter that with is simply put, if you're logging onto a provider's site from their line, they direct you to a non-ad served site. Or, the other thing would be that you still have the option NOT to visit their site as well. But, I do agree with double dipping being wrong.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Whats to stop them from making bandwidth intensive ads? Or investing in companies that due?
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

Who knows.. and who cares... I already made my point and your post doesn't change it. .. if you go to a site that is sucking bandwidth, or serving ads you don't want to pay for, then don't go there.

Your post sounds a lot like nanny-ism at it's best. Again, let me be clear since the memory span on this site is small.. I don't support metered billing. However, no matter HOW you are being charged for the internet, it's still the user that is the cause for data to flow the direction of your modem. Metered billing isn't enough to change how you get your content. You click, you get what you get. You have NO idea if when you launch a site if you're going to get ads or not.. that's still your issue and no one else's.

Any other ad related issues regarding the provider, see my post above.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:


4 edits

Re: F this

The shills have gotten smarter on this site I must say, with sophisticated positions like "i don't support metered billing But........." or "i don't like what this company does But......"

Oh, and for the "who cares", i would assume anyone who pays an internet bill.

You still have yet to address the fact the more ads = a larger bill. You only counter is "who cares"

NSA_CIA

@charter.com


from:
fiberguy See Profile

Re: F this

said by DataRiker See Profile :

You still have yet to address the fact the more ads = a larger bill. You only counter is "who cares"
The counter is the ads aren't large enough to affect your bill.

Are you really getting GIGABYTES worth of ads? No, maybe a few hundred megabytes... How does the amount of data in the ads compare to the caps needed to be billed by the GB?

Your bitching is equivalent to complaining about being charged for the vapors and drips coming off the gas pump when you just put 20 gallons in your car. Or it's the amount of milk left coating the container when it's too empty to fill a glass. Yes it's measurable, no it doesn't make a difference in your bill.

If you think otherwise, show us your bandwidth logs JUST for ads you downloaded. Tell us how many GBs of ads you downloaded last month. What's the ratio of ad bandwidth to requested data? 1 to 99?

If it's that big of a problem, BLOCK the ads. There's LOTS of solutions for that, many of them free.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:


2 edits

Re: F this

your reply is block the ads its easy?

what a joke

and by the way an increasing number of sites are hosting more and more ads, which in many cases take up the majority of the pages bandwidth.

So it could be very reasonable that someone is paying say, 20 or 30 % of their bill just for ads.

The shills on this site are absolutely terrified of this point, and they will try very very hard to belittle and distort this as much as possible.

RR User

@rr.com


from:
fiberguy See Profile

Re: F this

said by DataRiker See Profile :

your reply is block the ads its easy?

what a joke

and by the way an increasing number of sites are hosting more and more ads, which in many cases take up the majority of the pages bandwidth.

So it could be very reasonable that someone is paying say, 20 or 30 % of their bill just for ads.

The shills on this site are absolutely terrified of this point, and they will try very very hard to belittle and distort this as much as possible.
Easy. AdBlock Plus and a hosts file catch 99% of the ads that may be on the sites I surf.

I download over 100GB of data a month, yet the ads might add up to 100 MB even without the ad blocking stuff.

If the limit is even TWCs low 40GB before metered billing starts, how do you get 20 or 30% of a bill going to ads? How much data do you think the AVERAGE user consumes?

If all you did was surf MySpace, then maybe you'd get percentage of ads you're thinking of, but you'd get nowhere near enough data use to pass the limit to hit billable data usage.

To get alot of data use you're downloading movies, music, disk images, games, updates, etc, not ad filled web surfing. Mass bandwidth usage (say 40GB and up) doesn't come with ads.

Prove otherwise or shutup.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20


1 edit
So.. "Shills".. in your view, those who don't see YOUR point of view.. I guess to me, using your own view, you're a "shill"..

Since when did ads on, say, Amazon.com or Ebay.com, become the problem of your ISP or your bill? Like it or not, ads are content of the site you visit. If you don't like the site you visit having ads, DON'T VISIT!

Your continual posting and ranting about "ads.. ads.. ads" is very clearly telling of how you think you have some kind of inherit right to not view an ad.. You also keep forgetting that the site you visit is supported by those ads. However, you wouldn't get it becuase while you're not a "shill".. you're someone with an entitlement attitude. You also are someone that wants their cake and eat it too..

I'm guessing you're one that wants the ISP to be a dumb pipe.. so, stop making it the dumb pipe's problem about the sites YOU CHOSE to visit.

Ads are a fact of the internet. Deal with it.. yes, I said it.. deal with it.. and get some cheese for that wine.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:


1 edit

Re: F this

Your solution is to stop using the internet. How clever.

Let's see so far we have

A.) Ads are way too small (not true, by the way)

AND

B.) you should be using an Ad blocker (silly me !)

Look at how terrified you shills are of this point. I must have hit a sore spot.

NSA_CIA

@charter.com


from:
fiberguy See Profile

Re: F this

said by DataRiker See Profile :

Let's see so far we have

A.) Ads are way too small (not true, by the way)

AND

B.) you should be using an Ad blocker (silly me !)
Prove either one is not true or won't work. Tell us how much ad bandwidth the average user or even JUST YOURSELF uses in a month compared to everything else.

Actually just tell us how much bandwidth overall you use.

If you can't do that, YOU ARE A TROLL with no facts, just FUD and scare mongering.

or is your only come back to say the contrary?
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

You're REALLY taking a LONG walk on a shorrrrrt pier here.

For one, stop putting words in my mouth. In case you forgot, this is a message board on the internet and what I said is clearly in plain view.. even after I posted it. (And now you're looking really silly)

I never said stop using the internet.. I said it your CHOICE of where you go. Stop being so damn thick skulled and stop trying to be the victim.. it's not attractive. Your attitude, next, is one of looking for a welfare line. Yes, I said it! You're really whining loud here.

I don't know how much more clear I can make this... ADS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM OF THE ISP! And, like there is no 'separation of church and state' as some people try to twist it, there is no 'separation of ads and content' on the internet.

Why don't you stop spinning there, cuz all you're getting is dizzy, and explain how the ads on Weather.com, amazon.com, ebay.com, net and even the ones on the bottom of Yahoo messenger, for example, are not your problem?

You got a problem with ads, among other things, we get it! But, just because the industry is screaming they are looking for ways to meter bill that ads some how are no longer allowed? The "sites" *you chose* to visit place those ads there to support their site so that people like you can go visit for free. And, um, last I checked, even BBR, for non-premium members, has.. (all together now).. "ADS!" I wonder why that is?

You're dancing all around the real issue... address that, or, politely shut up.. All you're saying is "I don't want to have to pay to download the ads on the internet".. well, explain why that would be the problem of the ISP in the first place, or quite honestly.. grow up.

And second, you keep calling me a shill.. you keep saying that I support metered billing. Um, again, grow up. You've been told many times already that I don't support metered billing. I've told you here, I've told you before, and it's been posted on this site MANY times that I don't support it. The fact you keep name calling and bringing the same flawed argument up just shows your diminished presumed age, Riker. It's really telling as to your foundation which is nothing more than ranting at this point.

My argument is based not on supporting billing per byte.. my argument is based PURELY on the argument that if meter billing went into affect that ads shouldn't be allowed or that you shouldn't pay for them. Um, you want the ISP to be neutral.. to them, ads would be just bytes.. what you down load is between YOU and the SITE that YOU CHOSE to visit.. get it yet? You don't want that counted against you, either block ads, or avoid those sites.. that's your choice. But, the fact that you have this issue of downloading so many megs and megs and megs of ads all the time tells me your habbits on the internet.. you seem to hit a lot of sites that offer you alot of something for nothing.. all they ask is for you to see ads so THEY can pay to GIVE you content for free.. and, here you come along and are bitching about getting something for free.

You've got some real character there. I assume, too, by no other choice than the way you are behaving right now, that:

1) you don't feel you need to pay your full share in life.
2) the government has it's own money and you're entitled to some of it forgetting that its yours and everyone else's money that pays the government. 3) you think that redistribution of the wealth is acceptable (and forget that redistribution also takes money from upper lower and middle class people, not just the rich)
3) Life owes you something or that entitlement is a good thing.

And one last though on the ads.. your internet experience is what YOU CHOSE to make of it. As it was stated before, many people go on the internet and rarely see ads. Many people can use the internet for simply sending email, chatting, and checking their bank accounts - yup! They still do as little as that!

No one here is "terrified".. just you saying it doesn't mean it's true. Because you mis-use the term "shill" doesn't mean that anyone other than you is one. (It's really getting old and you using it is only flame bating people which is against the TOS here, but you don't care about little things like that do you?) And a sore spot? no.. I just feel compelled right now to put someone like you in your place. We're all entitled to our opinions, however, by calling me and others "shills" and ignoring what the "other side" is saying makes you an extremist. You're so happy to rant about ads, you've forgotten or missed that I've got and stated positions that are on both sides of the argument..

But, enjoy yourself.. and the free ride in life you're looking for. And remember, just because you pay "something" for a service doesn't give you cart blanc right to control it.

.. or maybe I don't care becuase I get up every day, bust my a*s, work in the middle America, lower middle class world and earn EVERY penny I make with blisters on my hands (to which people like you assume I'm rich) while I know I can afford the internet even if it were metered.. I don't WANT it metered.. but if they did, it would not affect me. The value of the internet, and the money it's saved me from the past on so many other services, is worth upwards to the $100 a month that I had to pay back in the early 2000's for a 256K line.

Enjoy!

ScaredGuy1234

@covad.net

Re: F this

I don't believe the issue is so much with ads in general. Yes, they are content on the site. But what if said ad is supported by the Provider, and they get a kickback in some way. Or if provider decides to massively overhaul their website to use much more bandwidth. Linking the ad back to the provider would show that not only is the provider charging you access to the ad, but is profiting from the ad itself.

The provider could see potential profit in supporting companies that produce bandwidth intensive ads, or even starting their own. If they get to increase the amount of bandwidth the ad will use, they increase their own profit margins greatly. It is not so much how much it will cost 1 customer, but how much when you multiply that by the total number of customers.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

"what if"... taking this argument that you pose, on its own value, so what?

The only place that I have a problem with ads being placed by an ISP or provider of data transport billing by the bit, is on their own sites where you have to visit a portal or something to manage your account.

Ads are an INCREDIBLY small part of the internet. I don't dismiss what you say at all.. okay? so don't get me wrong.. however, I will say that this particular argument line goes into MAJOR dangerous ground. It is 100% impossible to patrol everything in life and no matter how ANYONE tries, you can't always get it right and make it "fair".. which is what this is all boiling down to.. "what's fair".. which, by the way, isn't a right.

I've already gone on record that ISP based ads should not be on their own sites where a consumer MUST go in order to maintain their account, get their email, look at meters, etc.

Today, ALL data consumed is one flat rate as we know.. no one has an issue with that. However, now that people have the thought planted that someone wants to turn on a meter, everyone wants to start picking apart what they are going to pay for.

Again, it's funny, becuase there is not going to be metered billing.. this is a smoke screen distraction to get people occupied on something else while they make changes in other ares under your nose. You're the kitten and metered billing is the ball of yarn dangling over you right now.

I will also add that in the last 5 years, here on BBR, all these major disruptions that people have been worried about.. caps, etc. .. I've so far been correct on everyone. I am willing to put my name on the fact that metered billing won't happen. Caps and tiers? sure.. meters? No.

But, what's really going on right now is an attempt to raise the price of the monthly internet to make up for the impending loss and bleed of video and phone. If you don't believe me.. look at this as your example:

Cablevision introduces $99 100 mb line service. Look at the price and the speed. The price is the typical $99 price point they all want, and the 100mb gives you a pipe out to do as you please. IF they get the $99 internet customer, they've got the price point and you have the speed,.. be well! If you get the $99 internet AND you keep video and land line.. they win! Eventually, people will warm up to paying a higher price for internet again, oh, and love the speeds too.

They're just too afraid to simply raise the price of internet as they should have years ago slowly.. the problem is they raised Video, because they had to, thanks Hhollywood, and now the internet is harming their very core. Same said with telco with their core phone service.

This is just a massive mental PR campaign to get people opened to price increases. They are basically saying "prices are going to go up".. they beat people down enough with the fight, that sooner or later, people will just accept it as they always do.

NSA_CIA

@charter.com

said by DataRiker See Profile :

YAds are way too small (not true, by the way)
Prove they are not too small. Give us examples and statistics to show otherwise.

What's the average ad byte size?
What's the average number of ads people see on a page?
What's the average number of pages people view in a month?
What's the average bandwidth consumed by ads by a person in a month?
What's the average person being billed per gigabyte past their "cap"?
Does the average bandwidth consumption by ads; 1) Pass the cap for the average person? 2) Add a sizable cost to the bill once the cap is passed?

Use your own favorite sites and habits to answer the questions, even if you aren't average, and show us how much it will cost YOU.

Pingmeister



said by DataRiker See Profile :

your reply is block the ads its easy?

what a joke

and by the way an increasing number of sites are hosting more and more ads, which in many cases take up the majority of the pages bandwidth.

So it could be very reasonable that someone is paying say, 20 or 30 % of their bill just for ads.

The shills on this site are absolutely terrified of this point, and they will try very very hard to belittle and distort this as much as possible.
Smoothwall = firewall + NAT + caching proxy + a lot more - »www.smoothwall.org/

Even if you don't block ad networks (I don't - people in my house want the ads), you save subsequent transfers of not just the ads, but also any cacheable static data. Over the past year or so, I have saved about %20 on overall data transfer, and web browsing in my house is phenomenal. When you see the level of very reliable performance you get, and the level of control you have, you may never go back to a home consumer type NAT router-firewall. My Sonicwall SOHO3 has been retired to emergency backup for some time now.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:

Re: F this

said by Pingmeister :

said by DataRiker See Profile :

your reply is block the ads its easy?

what a joke

and by the way an increasing number of sites are hosting more and more ads, which in many cases take up the majority of the pages bandwidth.

So it could be very reasonable that someone is paying say, 20 or 30 % of their bill just for ads.

The shills on this site are absolutely terrified of this point, and they will try very very hard to belittle and distort this as much as possible.
Smoothwall = firewall + NAT + caching proxy + a lot more - »www.smoothwall.org/

Even if you don't block ad networks (I don't - people in my house want the ads), you save subsequent transfers of not just the ads, but also any cacheable static data. Over the past year or so, I have saved about %20 on overall data transfer, and web browsing in my house is phenomenal. When you see the level of very reliable performance you get, and the level of control you have, you may never go back to a home consumer type NAT router-firewall. My Sonicwall SOHO3 has been retired to emergency backup for some time now.
This is so utterly ridiculous its retarded. Do you think even less than 1% of consumers have the know how to do this?

The fact that its even suggested proves my point.
djhexer

join:2002-10-07
Sparks, NV

said by fiberguy See Profile :

said by DataRiker See Profile :

and will they subtract all advertisements from my quota?
... why should they? Your computer pulled it in from a site that you requested. That's the same thing as saying you shouldn't have to pay for hold and call routing times when you call a company long distance on a metered service.

But, in the end, it doesn't matter becuase metered billing isn't needed.
But if you call long distance and "know" you have to hold a long period of time you have an option to hang up. if you are pulling an add you know you don't want example. video ads on web sites. you do not have a choice to stop/close the connection.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

but it.. but if.. bla.. seriously.. this is really stretching it. If you see an ad on a website, don't patronize or visit it again - there, you just hung up on the site like you would a call. Does that clear it up for you?

Again, metered billing doesn't change anything on what YOU pull down from the net. You could visit a site today and it has no ads. Visit tomorrow, they're there.. Ads are content just as anything else on the page and is part of what you get when you want to visit someone else's site.. seriously, time to get over that part.

On the other hand, with the so-called and current "un-metered" billing system, you see them nitpicking over ads?

HOW you pay for the data you get doesn't change how things come down your way.

I'm not going to respond on this anymore.. there are WAY too many ridiculous arguments going on here now about "ads" on websites.. The issue of ads goes back to the site itself. They allow you to often visit the site for free of charge. Would you rather pay for internet AND pay the sites you visit? .. are you advocating less choice for yourself on line? .. by all means.. continue on. Ads and internet connections are not related.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:

Re: F this

With metered billing Ads are connected to your internet connection, as with many sites the advertisements take up the lion's share of the bandwidth.

So, that means more ads equals a bigger bill. A contradiction on the point of advertising and a sneaky way of double dipping.
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

If you support metered billing, then you have to deal with the nitpickers. You cannot support that side of this argument, and then get all snooty when people don't like it and poke holes at it. You wanted the billing model, so sake the bitching that comes with it.

cw
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

Where did I ever support metered billing? Please show me one place where I said I supposed metered billing. And then edit your post.

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

Re: F this

Didn't you just say "I'm not going to respond on this anymore.. there are WAY too many ridiculous arguments going on here now about "ads" on websites.." a few minutes ago ?
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

B_te M_ .... fill in the blanks

See 19 replies to this post
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX


1 edit
Fiberguy, stop being such a jerk.

You do realize that as you read one web page the advertisement window could have uploaded multiple advertisements in the same banner ad space, right?

So basically if we go to metered billing that shit has to stop. If there is metered billing I have to be able to manage things myself. Lets say I pay for access to a site like Fark.com or something else like that. So I'm paying to be there yet I am not in control of the ad's that cycle through the top banner. It could be as innocuous as a single JPG or it could switch to a flash based ad 30 seconds later. Regardless, its out of my control.

Yes yes, close the page, but no, I can't I'm paying for access to that site.

See the dilemma?

I read you reply more as wanting to be "right" about your point (argument) than something you can really get behind as a practice you would implement if you were an ISP.

Don't you as a consumer want to be in control of the services you buy? If you don't, you're a shill.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: F this

I'm being a "jerk" becuase I don't agree with you and your whining? wow!

Long walk.. short pier.

I could care less about the meter billing argument becuase as I've said before, this is all a smoke screen to distract people like you from what's really going on behind the curtain.. You REALLY think that metered billing is going to happen? no.. it's not. It's like the H1N1 flu and it being some kind of Pandemic.. give me a break. The REGULAR flu kills thousands each year.. it's a freaking distraction, or are you too distracted to see it?

Either way, it doesn't matter. If you have metered billing, it still doesn't change a damn thing! YOU pull the content from the sites YOU visit.. if you're worried about what you use, then don't visit sites you're worried about - plain and simple!

Gas costs money and is metered. If you don't want to use so much, then don't drive as much. If you visit Amazon.com and you're being fed ads, that's not AT&T's fault.. before metered billing, you're pulling those same ads.. but are you bitching about the bandwidth now? Of course not.. becuase, well, as you say, you're being a jerk. (next time, find another way to start your post)

Further, you're sitting there, like an illiterate web surfer trying to be the one making the point that is right, make a point to be right, having missed that I've said not once, but 5 times, that I do not support metered billing... go read! It's fundamental!
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Re: F this

Pot... kettle.... black. I submit we both whined in there a great deal.

Have a good day.

jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ

I'm not paying

I'm not paying for traffic that doesn't go through my router.

What is the ISP going to do? Monitor the TCP connection to see what happened? How's that going to work for UDP or ICMP?

Good luck with that.

See 6 replies to this post

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

New business model starting up.

It won't be long for companies that pop up and offer remote monitoring via SNMP. Then you can match their counters and the telco's counters and see who is correct.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: New business model starting up.

said by battleop See Profile :

It won't be long for companies that pop up and offer remote monitoring via SNMP. Then you can match their counters and the telco's counters and see who is correct.
In a world where the ISPs use the TOS declare themselves the sole arbiter of what is fair, reasonable, or within policy, it doesn't matter what some 3rd-party meter says.

This is a terrific article. I'm glad Karl picked up on it!
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

Re: New business model starting up.

said by funchords See Profile :

said by battleop See Profile :

It won't be long for companies that pop up and offer remote monitoring via SNMP. Then you can match their counters and the telco's counters and see who is correct.
In a world where the ISPs use the TOS declare themselves the sole arbiter of what is fair, reasonable, or within policy, it doesn't matter what some 3rd-party meter says.
Wasn't it Comcast saying for users to use a third party meter to measure their bandwidth?

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: New business model starting up.

said by PapaMidnight See Profile :

Wasn't it Comcast saying for users to use a third party meter to measure their bandwidth?
Yes, it recommended that. Of course, Comcast doesn't care what that meter says.

(With Comcast, though, a user has to exceed 250 GB -and- be one of the top 1,000 users in that month to get cut off -- so any meter is only useful to a point. My concerns concerns are with broadband operators who are using metering as a way to jack up rates. That's not Comcast, I'm happy to say.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL

Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC

said by battleop See Profile :

It won't be long for companies that pop up and offer remote monitoring via SNMP. Then you can match their counters and the telco's counters and see who is correct.
I'm sure that their will be. But it will be an additional cost. And I for one am tired of additional costs. I shouldn't have to pay to prove that I'm not being ripped off be those I pay to provide me with service.
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill.

--Don't bother telling us that we're too loud. Cause there ain't no way that we'll ever turn down.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: New business model starting up.

I would expect an add driven site with maybe a premium subscription.

Dagda1175

join:2001-06-17
Goleta, CA

Already exists?

How about the same government mechanisms which oversee gas and water metering? Or that which goes after gas stations who have messed with their dials?
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
·VOIPo

Hmmmmm good point.

Who does!?

I hope the Government at least gives us an accurate meter so we know we are paying for more than we use. Which is from what I understand y the ISPs want this, because they say some r using more than they pay for.

Good article Karl.

avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Union, NJ

who watches....

... the watchmen...
kxrm

join:2002-07-18
Fort Worth, TX

Think Dedicated or Colo Connection

They have been metering for years. All the problems their customers face, the TWC's customers will face. Including being targeted for DDoS just to hurt them financially. It's funny I have a dedicated service provider who is lifting metered billing on some levels. Could we be entering a shift?

sousademiami

join:2003-02-04
Miami, FL

Speaking of...

Where is that Comcast meter we were supposed to see in January?
--
OASAASLLS

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

Re: Speaking of...

said by sousademiami See Profile :

Where is that Comcast meter we were supposed to see in January?
"Coming Real Soon Now" (tm)
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

If they do this, here is what I'll do.

First, change providers.

Second, prepare to pay final bill by writing separate checks, in the amount of one penny, for each penny billed. My normal bill is $89.95 so that would be 8995 checks for .01 (each). In the comment space write the account number above the line and "1 of 8995 for the greedy bastards" and so on. Record a video of the checks being placed and sealed in a honking huge envelope.

Third, actually pay the final bill by mailing the checks as registered with return receipt requested.

Forth, don't look back and enjoy life!
margaf77

join:2000-12-22
Bayonne, NJ
·Optimum Online
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: If they do this, here is what I'll do.

said by lesopp See Profile :

First, change providers.

Second, prepare to pay final bill by writing separate checks, in the amount of one penny, for each penny billed. My normal bill is $89.95 so that would be 8995 checks for .01 (each). In the comment space write the account number above the line and "1 of 8995 for the greedy bastards" and so on. Record a video of the checks being placed and sealed in a honking huge envelope.

Third, actually pay the final bill by mailing the checks as registered with return receipt requested.

Forth, don't look back and enjoy life!
Im sure the place you buy your checks from will be glad to hear it.

dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29
·ViaTalk

How do they know

How do they know what you asked for and what is garbage being sent to you. Hack attempts ddos attacks ect. If I am paying for it it better be something that I requested.

Even with everything unplugged except router my data light on the cable modem lights up like a Christmas tree. Could be running a torrent flashes just the same.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: How do they know

UDP flood could run up your bill.. you don't need to have a connection open.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: How do they know

said by en102 See Profile :

UDP flood could run up your bill.. you don't need to have a connection open.
You'd need a device up and online at your side responding to ARP requests. Once the ARP resolution times out no unicast traffic can hit your connection.

Seriously, these concerns come up all the time in the web hosting world where providers charge based on usage. DoS attacks are the rare exception, and are handled on a case-by-case basis. (with no charge being assigned to customers unless it becomes a frequently reoccurring problem)
kxrm

join:2002-07-18
Fort Worth, TX
Just a guess but I would imagine that they would work on a way to measure usage from the customer side of the modem to avoid unrequested traffic affecting your bill.

sousademiami

join:2003-02-04
Miami, FL

Re: How do they know

You go ahead and hold your breath on that, I'm still waiting for Comcast to release their usage meter they promised in January.
--
OASAASLLS

dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29
Most traffic doesn't get rejected until it hits my routers firewall.

Larry64

@xerox.com

Monthly statements

I would want a monthly statement documenting where every byte of data was sent to and from so I can verify it just to make it a pain for them.
kxrm

join:2002-07-18
Fort Worth, TX

Re: Monthly statements

Have you ever printed an ethereal log? Be ready for paper boxes to come in the mail.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Monthly statements

said by kxrm See Profile :

Have you ever printed an ethereal log? Be ready for paper boxes to come in the mail.
Imagine all the ARP traffic that would be listed. Alas, poor forest, we hardly knew ye!

We could probably just have the ISP's create a new job position: the Meter Made-up.
denden2002

join:2002-08-30

Re: Monthly statements

thats why you use Hemp paper Regenerates much faster than forest paper.

Everyone talks about how to measure... How about we do not get to the point where we have to measure... The internet is like air to most people in the western world, you cant put a meter on that..

As usual... the regulators will succumb to the lobbysts... what a great democracy this is..

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
Just don't ask for electronic billing. Talk about double dipping...
Cyron

join:2002-09-24
Charlotte, NC

Unsecured networks

It will be really interesting to see how they handle customers who have an unsecured network. Using your neighbors broadband used to be relatively harmless (at least to their wallets), but this could change everything. Download a blu-ray movie when they're already at cap and they're handing over some serious bucks.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI


1 edit

Re: Unsecured networks

I was just thinking about my wireless at home for internet service.
I still use WEP because my PDA, and two usb wireless receivers on home computers.
Granted the two wireless receivers are 802.11b.
They are slow but work for the kids computers.

Crap, now I will be forced to re-buy new equipment for equipment this is functioning perfectly fine.
The other option is to wire the house for internet.
But I chose wireless for a reason, I works everywhere in the house, and back yard.

I am not in favor of billing by the byte for home usage.
The reason is that I budget everything.
I am not rich.
I can't afford one month to be more expensive than another.
I have every thing on level / flat pay for a reason - I know exactly how much my bills are going to be month to month.

Other issues I have with billing by the byte are:
Web pages are now loaded with movie like ads.
Why should I be forced to load my computers with all sorts of ad blockers? What about the others who don't know about ad blockers? I am thinking about my relatives who are very smart, but not computer smart. They are just users.

Forget ever watching another utube or hulu video.

Forget netflix.

I guess I will be passing on MS huge service packs. For that matter any update - it is as stupid as it sounds.

Why should I be forced to use web mail so that I don't actually down load crap emails? I use to be able to download emails just fine yesterday?

What about flooding? Home users have dynamic IP's. I don't know what the previous person did to piss off so yahoo in a foreign country, by I sure as hell don't want to be punished for it. Oh and the comment about where customer service understands your problem......yea right.

As a regular every day simple home user, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops just so I don't get screwed on my bill. Every other service allows simple ways to control your usage, but not the internet.

To those who say "well this doesn't effect people like you, just the hard core users" I say BS. Somehow someway, I am sure I am going to get screwed in the deal. I am sure that in the end I will be paying more for less.

Wow, I didn't know I felt so passionately about a topic.
I guess it is time to shop around for internet service from other providers....cox currently, and only other provider qwest. Qwest sucks in my neighbor hood.... Not much of a choice then.

In all fairness Cox has great service in my area, but if they go billing by the byte, then they can bite me.

maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

said by Cyron See Profile :

It will be really interesting to see how they handle customers who have an unsecured network. Using your neighbors broadband used to be relatively harmless (at least to their wallets), but this could change everything. Download a blu-ray movie when they're already at cap and they're handing over some serious bucks.
That is indeed also an issue. When I sit on my couch at home, surrounded by both houses and apartments, I can see an average of 5 to 8 networks, I guess depending on the weather and whatever makes signals weaker/stronger from time to time.

Two of those are unsecured.

One is a Linksys 802.11b router that does no more then 11 Mbps, and at my distance I get a 2 Mbps connection with that router. It has been there for the entire 6 years I have lived here. Unsecured.

The other is a DLink 802.11g network, with better signal. I can connect at 22 Mbps to that.

Both of them are also Time Warner Cable.

Now, I have no reason to use those networks, my own router is closer, faster, and secure. But with a 40 Gb limit, some people may be tempted to just use up their neighbors internet as well.

No one is going to find out if you downloaded 30 gb of crap from a usenet server using your neighbors connection, and that neighbor is left with the bill unless he can specifically pinpoint someone else through logs. And even then, you'd have to get a search warrant to actually establish that the neighbors MAC address matches the one in your logs.

Of course you can make the argument that everyone is responsible for their own network and security, but as of right now, there is no law in MOST states that specifically states that you cannot use an open access point to access the internet. In SOME cases they got people fined for doing so I believe, but even there it was a long stretch I think.

There are laws in place for stealing cable, stealing water, gas electricity, etc.

The laws about wireless internet are almost non-existent, or very fuzzy at least.

Also, a customer that is affected by this, and is getting charged for the neighbor's internet habits, is going to leave as a customer and find another ISP.

And forget about the regular neighbors.... I stayed in a Motel once for a night with my laptop that didn't have wireless internet available, but it was dead smack right in between an apartment building on one side and an office building on the other, with about a dozen wireless networks detected and several buckwide open. And yeah, I used the internet for free that evening.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

The carriers have been billing by usage for decades

Companies have been paying for metered connections (mbps percentile utilization) since the Internet was opened for public attachment. Every company I've worked for since the mid-90s has had both full-rate unmetered (at full-rate cost) and 95th percentile billing as an option.

The network industry has had a couple decades to refine the process of measuring utilization. It's interesting that you don't hear businesses and hosting companies who are paying substantially bigger bills expressing concerns about accuracy in measurement.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

1 edit

Re: The carriers have been billing by usage for decades

Good point. But you're talking about accuracy in measurement on the carrier end, where large corporations face the legal departments of other large corporations if the business transaction at stake isn't perfectly fair.

It's quite a different animal on the consumer end, where I'm fairly sure you could jack up rates on consumers without anyone noticing.

Who'd ensure consumers were getting fair deals? Consumer advocates who in this culture have been relegated to crackpot status? The FCC? Who's so heavily lobbied they can't bother to do much more than act as professional cheerleaders for AT&T?

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: The carriers have been billing by usage for decades

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Good point. But you're talking about accuracy in measurement on the carrier end, where large corporations face the legal departments of other large corporations if the business transaction at stake isn't perfectly fair.
Everybody who rents / colos dedicated servers also has the same billing model in place. You should ask justin See Profile if he has his massive legal team holding NAC accountable for the amount of bandwidth they say he consumes operating this site.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

It's quite a different animal on the consumer end, where I'm fairly sure you could jack up rates on consumers without anyone noticing.
Let's be realistic here. How many people had ever heard of Beaumont, TX before news exploded over the Internet that TWC was going to be conducting a metered bandwidth trial there? People may not know what a gigabyte is, but they know what a dollar is, and they're going to notice if their bill goes up and complain loudly about it.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Who'd ensure consumers were getting fair deals? Consumer advocates who in this culture have been relegated to crackpot status?
It would help if the Consumer Advocates could assemble a coherent list of reasonable demands and didn't turn everything into a damn us vs them battle. Net Neutrality is a perfect example of this kind of blunder, as consumer advocates have spun that around to apply to whatever their issue of the week is so many times that nobody knows what the hell "Net Neutrality" even means anymore. (other than Net Neutrality is good, so anything that seems bad must be against Net Neutrality)

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

2 edits

Re: The carriers have been billing by usage for decades

You should ask justin See Profile if he has his massive legal team holding NAC accountable for the amount of bandwidth they say he consumes operating this site.
We have considerably more legal power and finances to pursue overbilling than a consumer would.
It would help if the Consumer Advocates could assemble a coherent list of reasonable demands and didn't turn everything into a damn us vs them battle.
They tend to only be "incoherent" to the people who don't agree with them. I would argue the fact you think they're "incoherent" says more about you than it does about them.

I also don't think it's the consumer advocates who are to blame for the "us versus them" battle, it's thanks to a culture that seems to embrace overly simplistic myopic partisanship and binary thinking. As for the network neutrality debate, it was muddied by organizations on both sides, but the core concept is not complicated.
People may not know what a gigabyte is, but they know what a dollar is, and they're going to notice if their bill goes up and complain loudly about it.
And no, I don't think a few people complaining about being overbilled one month is enough deterrent for ripping consumers off by jacking around with the meters. That's incredibly unrealistic. It certainly hasn't worked that way in the wireless industry; actual change quite often requires the involvement of State Attorney Generals, tough State level consumer protection laws, and lawsuits.

It also doesn't work that was in the gasoline and electrical industries, otherwise you wouldn't have meter regulation -- you'd just put your faith in the good graces of industry. Which, you know, we don't for very obvious reasons.
JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL

Who verifies your meter for electricity?

When was the last time you called the electric company and complained about kwh being off on your bill? Did they send out an independent auditor or just a tech from their company?
--
»www.seabee.navy.mil

roc5955
Premium
join:2005-11-26
Rosendale, NY

Re: Who verifies your meter for electricity?

Last time that happened to me, they just installed a new meter.
--
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Maynard G Krebs

@teksavvy.com

said by JSRoman See Profile :

When was the last time you called the electric company and complained about kwh being off on your bill? Did they send out an independent auditor or just a tech from their company?

Where I live, the local electric company pulls several thousand meters from the field each year and sends them to an independent lab for testing.

They pull meters randomly from pools after pooling by manufacturer, meter model, year of manufacture, and length of install.

Defective meters are replaced and billing adjustments are made as appropriate.
swbrains

join:2004-04-14
Wesley Chapel, FL

Metering internet usage...

Oddly, the ISPs like Verizon and the Cable Cos. are the ones now offering "unlimited" phone usage, whereas back in the day, phone service was always a pay-for-usage service. As competition increases, now even wireless providers are going to "unlimited" plans at reasonable prices as a competitive incentive to gain market share.

My guess is that over the years -- assuming they actually do start metering usage -- they'll begin to compete on price (cheaper $ per byte), and eventually the competition between the cablecos and Verizon (and whoever else enters the fray) will get really stiff, and some marketing genius sitting in a board room will have the bright idea... "Hey, I know how we can win huge market share... Let's offer "unlimited" usage for a fixed price!"

Everything old is new again...
jfriedman

join:2009-04-26
Brooklyn, NY

Meter Accuracy

Who verifies the electric company is metering accurately?

maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Meter Accuracy

said by jfriedman See Profile :

Who verifies the electric company is metering accurately?
All placed meters need to adhere to a government regulated standard. NEMA describes the 0.2 and 0.5 accuracy standards. What it precisely entails, I haven't researched.

There is no such standard in existence for internet meters.

Furthermore, the local governments regulate the electricity companies. In some cases they hire a 3d party company which has electricity meters FROM the electricity company, goes to a random house, and replaces the current electricity meter, then takes that one for testing. They shoot a predetermined amount of megawatts through it, and see how accurate it is.

It's different per state, per county, and even per city. In California there is some heavy regulation going on after the electricity companies really messed things up in the early 2000s thanks to our previous Governor who wanted to deregulate everything.

Also you have a lot of legal standing when it comes to excessive electricity bills. If you normally pay $100 a month, and all over sudden a $1200 bill comes and nothing has changed, a lawyer can pretty quickly get that bill washed away, get you reconnected, and at the very least (if it turns out it was one of your appliances going haywire) come up with an installment plan. If it was the neighbors tapping into the grid illegally, they can be charged with the costs.

You currently have NO legal standing with an ISP. If you just bought a new router, installed it, and forgot to secure the wireless.... and your neighbor goes and downloads 200 Gb of porn, you have no way of ever fighting it because you GAVE the neighbor the FREE access.

And quite frankly? From my couch I can surf on two unsecured networks, both of which - because I tried - give me a TWC IP address. If they come up with a 40 Gb plan, what keeps me from using up their data as well? In SOME states you could be convicted for it if they find out.... in MOST states you still can't, and you can easily blame Windows, which WILL, I repeat WILL automatically connect to the first OPEN network it can find, unless you specifically point it to your CLOSED router.

The whole capping debate is more complicated then simply setting an amount and call it a day. Especially with all the SPAM and unwanted ads I am downloading.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

Wireless and Wireline billing method screws customers.

Don't be to certain that you are being treated fairly by the wireless and wireline carriers. When I started to work for a local exchange carrier in the early 1980's the company sold measured Wide Area Telephone Service Lines (WATS Lines). One of the selling points for a measured WATS line was six second billing. That saved the customer about 20% over One Minute Billing each month. Where did the 20% come from? Rounding Error. Each call does not end in exact one minute intervals. The carriers round up even if the call is one second over an increment. If the company uses one minute billing, and you hang up One Second or 59 Seconds into the last minute of the call you are still billed for one minute.

Over a typical one month interval, it turns out that the cost for calls billed in one minute intervals are 20% higher than the quoted price. The wireless and wireline Carriers can bill in Six Second Increments but what better way to cheat the customer than using a billing method where the customer does not know they are being overcharged.

I am sure that the Cable ISP's will find a way to overcharge their customers like the wireless and wireline companies do, by not being honest with their customers.

The only way broadband customers will get protection is through government regulation of the ISP's. I do not think that is going to happen with the ISP's paying off our elected representatives to vote it their favor. By the way, while our government officials are regulating the ISP's they should force the wireline and wireless carriers to adopt billing in six second increments.

NickD
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Princeton Junction, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast

Meter fail

I have gotten a parking ticket from a meter that expired 5 minutes before it was supposed to because the meter was running fast. I then put a quarter in the meter and filmed the meter counting down next to a watch and proved to the judge that the meter was running fast. That's how I got out of that ticket. If I didn't do that, there wouldn't be a reasonable way to prove that the meter was fast. And I hope everyone else who got a ticket from that meter and didn't go to the court got a refund.

pokesph
It Is Almost Fast
Premium
join:2001-06-25
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·Comcast

Re: Meter fail

said by NickD See Profile :

I have gotten a parking ticket from a meter that expired 5 minutes before it was supposed to because the meter was running fast. I then put a quarter in the meter and filmed the meter counting down next to a watch and proved to the judge that the meter was running fast. That's how I got out of that ticket. If I didn't do that, there wouldn't be a reasonable way to prove that the meter was fast. And I hope everyone else who got a ticket from that meter and didn't go to the court got a refund.
We all KNOW they didn't get a refund.
Forums » If ISPs Meter, Who Verifies Meter Accuracy?page: 1 · 2


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