 wentlanc You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30 Maineville, OH
| Non profit networking.... Remove the transport from greedy corporations, and let them really compete for access. This would be revolutionary for the American consumer. It would also erode the pockets of the ISP's who rely on milking their infrastructure to make their profits. That's why they want closed networks. That's why they want full control. And that's why the want to avoid neutrality. | |
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 |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Non profit networking.... 1984 deregulation (or reregulation if you want to call it that) worked very well. No player can offer the functions/services that its competitor offers. IE, ILEC can only offer copper loop, only ISP can offer DSL, only local exchange CLEC can offer intra-LATA, and only long distence can offer inter-LATA. When no players can control more than 1 part of the service, there will be competition | |
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 |  |   ajkvndgtsdreyegs
@omcastbusiness.net
| Re: Non profit networking.... Wrong! If you want competition and the best possible service for the lowest price. totally deregulate everything. any ISP has the right to come into any town so long as the citizens of the town have a chance to vote the ok that so called applying provider is allowed to run lines into the town to provide a service. It is called free market capitalism. as long as each provider applies to the town and the town votes to allow another ISP to come in then you will have the best possible rates. for those that vote no then no lines can or will be run through their premises for a said period of time. so they either have a choice to not get the service and vote no ro they get the service possibilities and say yay. to hell with regulation in all shapes and form this is what hurts the consumer in price economics. | |
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 |  |  |  joker5656
join:2006-06-23 Greenville, SC
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Non profit networking.... you make since but since there is never a vote for the people to decide i see this a moot point. the company's go to the top level of gov in that town and sign exclusive deals. there is no vote. Only politicians that think they know what there doing is the only vote. that's why most cities/town don't have two or more companies competing in the same area. imagine if you could choose between two or more cable company's, its a dream waiting to be had. a choice between cable, dsl, wireless, and satellite Internet is not competition since there speeds differ greatly in a given area. very few cities/towns get any competition between the 4 and usually there in huge cities. | |
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 |  |  |  |   batageek Slave To The Duopoly Premium join:2003-01-25 Batavia, IL
| Re: Non profit networking.... I CALL B.S.
The only thing stopping multiple builds is the lack of payback in the private sector business model to do so.
The "crooked politician" arguments don't hold weight. Blocking a cable build by an "exclusive" agreement is against the law.
See: »www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscod···00-.html -- »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   hjkjshjkhkashk
@verizon.net
| Re: Non profit networking.... really. I have personally tried to get fiber from another cable company 10 miles away for a great price because a cable company (suscom) was going to allow this however suscom was bought out by comcast and comcast will not allow mediacom to run fiber to our buisness. whether its against the law or not i dont know but i do know that we are not going to pay a bunch of lawyers to find out. but this is the exact statement given to me from mediacom and they are and were very serious about getting our buisness for the next three years by running fiber to 6 different sites but no, freemarket ISP doesnt exist in my neighborhood | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  jaminus
join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA
| That law you cite does ban exclusive franchises, but in practice it does nothing to stop them. Sure, in *theory* the startup can get a franchise. But only if they hand over 5 percent of revenue to the city, promise to offer service in low-income areas with low adoption rates, and in the case of TV grant a channel devoted to city council meetings that barely anyone actually watches.
Yes, in some cases private investment payoff is too low to justify building a network if there's already one in place. But if you really think the huge burdens of franchise agreements do not discourage broadband choice, then I advise you to search DSLReports news about the obstacles FiOS and U-Verse have dealt with for the past couple years. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   batageek Slave To The Duopoly Premium join:2003-01-25 Batavia, IL
| Re: Non profit networking.... it's a level playing field argument. You can't expect one provider to get one deal and another provider a different one.
From the city's point of view, it would dump them into a legal quagmire. The city, as it should, is looking to serve all its citizens with the same service and should be looking to get something out of the deal for its citizens.
As to the huge burdens, it's no different than what the cable cos are existing under presently. Cable cos have (in most places) universal buildout clauses for a franchise area (where local franchising has not been replaced with statewide franchising). Cities are typically trying to require the same of the bells when they begin offering video services. -- »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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 |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY | Deregulation = allowing anti-competitive practices | |
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 |  |
 |  |   elios
join:2005-11-15 Springfield, MO | Re: Non profit networking.... really? seems to working well in UT UTOPIA seems to be doing well and this is pretty much what the OP is saying
and imo id take UTOPIA over FiOS any day | |
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 |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Non profit networking.... said by elios :really? seems to working well in UT UTOPIA seems to be doing well and this is pretty much what the OP is saying Last we checked, UTOPIA was $98 million in the hole. The taxpayers are on the hook for this. At least if a private company wasted that kind of cash, the general public would not be on the hook for anything. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |   jhboricua ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-06 Minneapolis, MN clubs:
| Re: Non profit networking.... said by pnh102 :At least if a private company wasted that kind of cash, the general public would not be on the hook for anything. Really? I call bs on that statement. Northwest Airlines has been bailed twice by MN taxpayers with little to show for it. The Savings & Loans crisis of the 80's and 90's cost the US taxpayers $124.6 billion. The current subprime mortgage crisis IS costing taxpayers everywhere. These are just a few examples. -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Non profit networking.... said by jhboricua :Northwest Airlines has been bailed twice by MN taxpayers with little to show for it. The Savings & Loans crisis of the 80's and 90's cost the US taxpayers $124.6 billion. The current subprime mortgage crisis IS costing taxpayers everywhere. These are just a few examples. So you are proving that government bailouts are bad. Why should we allow for more to occur? -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   jhboricua ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-06 Minneapolis, MN clubs: edit: March 6th, @11:56AM
| Re: Non profit networking.... Nice way of trying to twist my response. I expected nothing less from a shill. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Non profit networking.... said by jhboricua :Nice way of trying to twist my response. Glad you see my point. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI
| I'm always interested in how they are doing, I think its up to taxpayers if they want to go forward with these things. I think they will keep voting for it, even if it costs money in the short term.
Can you provide a link with their financial status that isn't a message-board post? | |
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 |  |  |  |  Skippy25
join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO
| Did you expect them to be way ahead in less then 5 years?
Over time, UTOPIA will prove to be the way EVERY community should go. Futher more, I think UTOPIA will show this nation needs 1 fiber network to every person/business that any provider can provide any service to any customer anywhere in the nation that wants that service.
I strongely disagree that every business that wants to provide service should have to build their own network throughout my neighborhood/city. That is not in the best interest of the consumer's nor the citizens. It is only in the best interest of the companies that continue to try to monopolies the industry. | |
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 |  |  |  viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| UTOPIA would be considered an overbuild. Other infrastructure already exists (twisted pair copper (Qwest) and coax (whoever the cable provider is)). While it is a municipal build, it's still an overbuild. Anyone can do that if they can figure out how to pay for it. | |
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 |  |  wentlanc You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30 Maineville, OH
| Whatever works.....
Paint the picture of doom and gloom, and fear monger as much as you like. If it makes the broadband landscape in the US better, I'm for it. I don't have any allegiance to any corporations pocketbook, so I'm actually open to suggestions. | |
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 |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
edit: March 6th, @12:57PM
| Whenever people suggest to me that the government take over something because it'd be run better/more fairly/more cheaply/whatever, I always ask them if they enjoyed their last visit to the Motor Vehicle Department, Post Office, Courthouse, Tax Assessor's Office, Social Security Office, etc. Not to mention TSA at the airport.
These are perfect example of government-run services. They very obviously could care less about their customers. It's all about their employees, their rules, and their convenience. They literally have zero incentive to satisfy your particular needs.
Do big companies suck? Yes, in many ways. But, to me, big government takes suck to a whole new level. And, there are no checks and balances to stop them, really. At least with big corporations you have SOME level of choice (let the bitching about "there's no real competition" begin... but it's better than literally none except the Government). | |
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 |  |  axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC | Re: Non profit networking.... Heh I usually have a good time at the Post Office, it is not government run. I have had poor mail carriers. | |
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 |  |  |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
edit: March 6th, @07:06PM
| Re: Non profit networking.... said by axus :Heh I usually have a good time at the Post Office, it is not government run. I have had poor mail carriers. It's true they are not literally government-run, but they certainly have that legacy and mindset. And they are (mostly) a monopoly, so they don't have the incentive to improve, really.
You are lucky. I'm in Austin, TX. All the post offices around here are severely understaffed, or should I say "under-worked". They build these beautiful new post office buildings, set up like 8 counters, and you never see more than 2 or 3 of them manned. The rest of the workers are on break or wandering around doing whatever. 30-minute waits for service are not uncommon. I avoid them like the plague. I use package services like DHL/FedEx whenever I can. | |
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 |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | The Post Office has been getting better and better. More services, online automation, good service.
Course it's a quasi-government operation. | |
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  pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Nothing Stopping Private Citizens While local governments can and should be banned from rolling their own networks, there is nothing stopping private citizens from investing their own resources and setting up their own network, even as a non-profit venture.
Whatever happened to that "can-do" spirit? -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |   gaforces United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA | Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens Successful broadband deployment has been a combination of private and public resources teaming up. THAT is can-do spirit! -- Vista ~ Less functional every day! | |
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 |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by gaforces :Successful broadband deployment has been a combination of private and public resources teaming up. THAT is can-do spirit! "I'm from the government and I am here to help."
*shudder*
If what you say is true, then why is it always the government holding back private broadband deployments? We see examples shown on this website everyday. A company like Verizon wants to run FIOS to some town somewhere, but the town won't let them because some local politician wants a new pool or some BS like that. Lather, rinse and repeat. The same story is repeated all over the country. Government, especially local government, has done more to hobble private broadband deployment than any "market forces." -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |   gaforces United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens Maybe because the private entity's are cherry picking, leaving huge swaths of the country unserved. Let there be CAKE, but only to those they consider profitable of course!
The only way unserved area's will be deployed to is to have private and public cooperation, or twisting of arms like for instance, Boston. If they want to deploy in the profitable areas they should have to also deploy in the rest of the state where the ROI is lower.
Private entity's are holding up deployment squabbling and holding back deployment with all kinds of excuses and bribing till they get to cherry pick what they wish and screw the rest. -- Vista ~ Less functional every day! | |
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 |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by gaforces :Maybe because the private entity's are cherry picking, leaving huge swaths of the country unserved. So what if they are cherry picking? Last I checked companies like Verizon, Comcast and AT&T are not charities. They have an obligation to their shareholders to be profitable.
said by gaforces :If they want to deploy in the profitable areas they should have to also deploy in the rest of the state where the ROI is lower. We've seen this before. The end result of this is everyone does get equal service. That is, none whatsoever. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   gaforces United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by pnh102 :said by gaforces :Maybe because the private entity's are cherry picking, leaving huge swaths of the country unserved. So what if they are cherry picking? Last I checked companies like Verizon, Comcast and AT&T are not charities. They have an obligation to their shareholders to be profitable. said by gaforces :If they want to deploy in the profitable areas they should have to also deploy in the rest of the state where the ROI is lower. We've seen this before. The end result of this is everyone does get equal service. That is, none whatsoever. Lies from the ILEC's and their stockholders. -- Vista ~ Less functional every day! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by gaforces : Lies from the ILEC's and their stockholders. How is it a lie?
I am not sure how you can disprove that companies like Verizon, AT&T and Comcast are in the business to make money.
As for companies not providing service due to objections by the local government, this is true. How can a company offer service when a local government doesn't allow them to operate? -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   jhboricua ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-06 Minneapolis, MN clubs:
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens The local government are not preventing them to operate. That is a lie too. The problem is that companies such as Verizon, AT&T and Comcast want to have their cake and eat it.
There's nothing to stop them from providing services. -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by jhboricua :The local government are not preventing them to operate. How? When the local government explicitly tells an ISP that it cannot make a deployment, that is pretty cut and dried to me. I don't see how you can spin this. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jaminus
join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA
| Cherry-Picking is a good thing. Wealthy areas get new stuff first, because they're more likely to subscribe. Initial deployments are typically more expensive than later ones, so it makes sense that ISPs pick the places with high adoption rates for the newest tech. Then, as costs go down, middle class and eventually lower class areas get service too.
If your goal for everybody to have equally mediocre service, then regulate the hell out of broadband companies. But if you want broadband to constantly evolve like it has in the US over the past 10 year, then companies need to have an incentive to invest in long-term capital projects like FiOS, DOCSIS 3.0, or VDSL. Who want to spend billions on big projects if you have to cover poor areas where not many people even subscribe to $50/month internet? Profit is what drives technology forward, and profit is why mobile broadband, computer processors, and flash memory are so affordable and advanced nowadays. | |
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 |  |  |  Talis
join:2001-06-21 Houston, TX
| said by pnh102 :A company like Verizon wants to run FIOS to some town somewhere, but the town won't let them because some local politician wants a new pool or some BS like that. Lather, rinse and repeat. The same story is repeated all over the country. Government, especially local government, has done more to hobble private broadband deployment than any "market forces." I totally disagree with this statement. It's corporate greed that has done more to hobble broadband deployment.
Isn't it the business of local government to look out for the interests of the citizens? If a corporation comes into any town asking for special access (monopoly right-of-way privileges) in order to offer a service, it SHOULD be the governments job to make sure that ALL citizens will benefit from that transaction. Your attempts to spin this into some sort of corruption scam is truly shudder-worthy.
Local government should be free to say "go away" to anyone that can't or won't provide universal service, and should then be free to provide the service themselves if they so choose. | |
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 |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by Talis :It's corporate greed that has done more to hobble broadband deployment. If that was true we'd have no private broadband anywhere. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| Small clarification. Government shouldn't be allowed to roll their own network to unfairly compete with private industry. There is nothing wrong with govt rolling their own network for govt use, e.g. municipality network to support municipal government, state wide network to support state government, etc. | |
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 |  Nuts
join:2006-04-27 Forest, OH | Should they be banned from building and maintaining roads also. | |
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 |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by Nuts :Should they be banned from building and maintaining roads also. No. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  Nuts
join:2006-04-27 Forest, OH
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens Then whats the difference with building a fiber and or copper infrastructure, and then turn around and let anyone that wants to use it to provide service to use those lines.
I agree with you that the government should not be an ISP, cable provider, telco. | |
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 |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens said by Nuts :Then whats the difference with building a fiber and or copper infrastructure, and then turn around and let anyone that wants to use it to provide service to use those lines. The difference is that no one is forced to pay for roads. People who do not drive do not pay gas taxes, car registration fees, tolls, or other fees that are used for highway maintenance.
In every single government-provided broadband boondoggle project, either taxpayer money is used, or money is siphoned off from some other government-provided service to pay for the costs of broadband. This not only confirms the un-profitability argument, but further screws taxpayers and ratepayers for unrelated services. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Nothing Stopping Private Citizens Many that live in the southwest do not pay car registration fees, have a license or insurance either... but they still drive the roads -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
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 |  |  |   AnonGuy
| said by pnh102 :said by Nuts :Should they be banned from building and maintaining roads also. No. Why? | |
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 |  See 12 replies to this post |
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  Cerabus12 Dial-up 4 Life
join:2005-08-09 Brooker, FL edit: March 6th, @10:13AM
| I'm Done I'm Done I"m going to Canada where I can get some broadband later | |
|
 lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17 Eureka Springs, AR
| In the big picture it effects the urban areas phone co.'s The cable co.'s have built there profits on what they built and have now, and really have nothing to lose. The phone co.'s on the other hand a good portion of there profits come from rural phone customers. With cell phone becoming more affordable and more competitive it is just a matter of time before more and more revenue is lost from rural phone lines. Guess what the big phone co.'s don't want to make less money. So, as they lose more and more rural phone customers where are they going to recoup that revenue from? Existing customers in urban areas. So, either way the urban areas are going to pay. Either they pay for nothing or they pay and then they can communicate with family and friends in rural areas and have access to broadband when they travel to other parts of the country. I really don't see what all the fussing and arguing is about. Either come together and pay for something, or stay divided and pay for nothing, but either way there will be paying involved. | |
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 |  See 9 replies to this post |
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  Transmaster Onward Through The Fog
join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY
| I will say it yet one more time What is needed in this country is something like the REA, The Rural Electric Association. The REA brought electricity to the country side and this investment has paid off in a big way. An RBA, Rural Broadband Association could mean the same thing to rural areas, and I have no doubt the economic boost would be just as large. -- Send a prayer to Allah, eat Beans. | |
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 MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| So where's the actual refutation of the paper? All I see are sarcastic remarks and the usual "let's just give everything to the government and let them run it because corporations are evil" threads.
If you read the paper, it actually draws some conclusions based on data.
I think the paper wins so far. | |
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 |   powerhog Stinkin' up the joint Premium join:2000-12-14 Talala, OK
| Re: So where's the actual refutation of the paper? You think that report is good?
It starts off by slamming contrary reports for not "normalizing" data and making comparisons to population density, etc. then it goes on to give broad statistics like miles of fibre in Montana without giving any information on WHERE those miles are being deployed. And where (and what kind) of deployments are being planned for the other locations? Are they RURAL locations or are the ISPs just upgrading (aka deploying) existing systems?
Sorry, that report fails on every level. | |
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