 
Loker
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Fargo, ND
clubs:
edit:
March 23rd, @03:44PM
| NEVER! This is a lie the government would never do this to us!
Karl do you always have to spread the lies?  we all know the government is the most trustworthy entity in existence. | |
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TigerLord
Resident Pentaxian
Premium,Mod
join:2002-06-09
Chicoutimi | Re: NEVER! you forgot to add [sarcasm] brackets... | |
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TigerLord
Resident Pentaxian
Premium,Mod
join:2002-06-09
Chicoutimi | Re: NEVER! I'd prefer avoiding answering that question... | |
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| | | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH | Re: NEVER! Hehe, we all know what right wing whack job would actually AGREE with your first statement (*cough* retire *cough*) | |
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| | | | biochemistry
join:2003-05-09
92361 | Re: NEVER! Actually "right-wingers" have traditionally been opposed to big government while "left-wingers" do their best to increase it. It's only a modern phenomenon that they're both trying to outdo the other by increasing the size of government. | |
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| | NYC Girl
Premium
join:2007-02-04
New York, NY |  | |
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Cyber2lz
join:2001-11-15
Odessa, FL | Right Wing Politically speaking, I am just to right of Genghis Khan!
But, ..................This is just Bush Sh!t.
I used to be a W fanboy, but this kind of Naziesque crap has got to stop !!
Just a thought, | |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Right Wing said by Cyber2lz  :Politically speaking, I am just to right of Genghis Khan! This really is not a Left/Right issue. It is a Constitutional question of balance. What power should government have to protect its citizens while respecting their civil liberties?
This is not a new phenomenon. Whenever the country faces a crisis we overreact giving too much power to the State and reducing oversight. Abuses happen, everyone is aghast, and tighter controls are put in place.
McCarthyism during the Cold War
Japanese internment during WWII
Anarchist hysteria during the '30s
Alien and Sedition act during WWI
If would be nice if in times of crisis we not forget errors of the past.
/Tom | |
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| brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Miami, FL | Re: Lock him up for breaking the law FBI and CIA never bend the rules. This guy must of been on something when this happened to him. | |
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| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Cox HSI
| It won't be the law for long. A judge overturned the provision for the gag orders because its prior restraint on free speech. The gov didn't finish their appeal yet, when they do a higher court can officially overturn the law. And if they don't appeal, the law isn't being enforced.
This guy already went to court over it, he's revealing facts from years ago. He's anonymous, and he didn't reveal anything that would harm national security. Or are you saying that revealing secret laws is a crime? Because its in the patriot act, its not a secret law. | |
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texans20
Johama McBama 08
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:
| said by TK Junk Mail :Lock him up for discussing it, even if he is hiding his identity. He is breaking the law. He should have waited until his court case. The FBI know who he is. Just wondering, what exact law was broken? Besides, there should always be a way to contest anything. Never should the government have the right to say "this is it, period". The FBI can't say "give me this info, don't ask questions, don't talk about it". It should be "give me this information, here is the warrant signed by a judge, the judge also orders a gag. If you have any problems, bring them to the court". I don't trust the FBI or any other government organization with that much power. | |
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| | footballdude
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
| Re: Lock him up for breaking the law said by texans20 :Never should the government have the right to say "this is it, period". Apparently you've never dealt one on one with the IRS. | |
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| quatrix
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL
edit:
March 23rd, @04:48PM
| I'm sick of all the news articles quoting officials "on the condition of anonymity" because they're leaking confidential information. Since when is it okay to break the law as long as you do it anonymously? | |
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| Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | he didnt break the law, unless it is a publicly known law it cant really be broken.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Lock him up for breaking the law said by Kearnstd :he didnt break the law, unless it is a publicly known law it cant really be broken. They are PUBLICLY known laws:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S···y_Letter
The oldest NSL provisions were created in 1978 as a little-used method of circumventing the Right to Financial Privacy Act. Used in terrorism and espionage investigations, it was limited to foreign powers or persons who the FBI had reasonable cause to believe were agents of a foreign power. Compliance was voluntary, and states' consumer privacy laws often allowed institutions to decline these requests.
In 1986, the Act was amended to compel disclosure, and the Electronic Communication Privacy Act was created with similar provisions in place. Still, neither act identified any penalties for failing to comply with the letter.
A 1993 amendment relaxed the restriction regarding "foreign powers" and allowed the use of an NSL to obtain information on persons not under direct investigation.
USA Patriot Act
Once passed in 2001, section 505 of the USA PATRIOT Act greatly expanded the use of the NSL, allowing their use in scrutiny of US residents or visitors who are not suspects in any criminal investigation. It also granted the privilege to other federal agencies, presumably to allow the department of Homeland Security the same ability to use NSLs. The USA PATRIOT Act reauthorization statutes passed during the 109th Congress added specific penalties for non-compliance or disclosure.
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Lock him up for breaking the law Gee, but there is an act that supercedes even THAT. It's that 'pesky document' called the US Constitution. You should read it some time. In fact, I'll even point out one of those pesky rules you republicans hate so much, called the 6th Amendment.
I'll give you a little quote from it..
"the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him."
Hmmm.. It seems that so called 'law' isn't really very good. The accused has every right to know the charges against him, AND he has the right to a PUBLIC TRIAL. Hmm.. I guess that pesky document you hate so much is going to be a major sticking point for your argument.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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AnonymousCoward
@verizon.net
| Re: Lock him up for breaking the law said by karlmarx :Gee, but there is an act that supercedes even THAT. It's that 'pesky document' called the US Constitution. You should read it some time. In fact, I'll even point out one of those pesky rules you republicans hate so much, called the 6th Amendment. I'll give you a little quote from it.. "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him." Hmmm.. It seems that so called 'law' isn't really very good. The accused has every right to know the charges against him, AND he has the right to a PUBLIC TRIAL. Hmm.. I guess that pesky document you hate so much is going to be a major sticking point for your argument. said by karlmarx :Gee, but there is an act that supercedes even THAT. It's that 'pesky document' called the US Constitution. You should read it some time. In fact, I'll even point out one of those pesky rules you republicans hate so much, called the 6th Amendment. I'll give you a little quote from it.. "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him." Hmmm.. It seems that so called 'law' isn't really very good. The accused has every right to know the charges against him, AND he has the right to a PUBLIC TRIAL. Hmm.. I guess that pesky document you hate so much is going to be a major sticking point for your argument. How do you feel about the right to keep and bear, Mr. Marx? | |
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| russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA | They can't yet press a criminal case against him without revealing his identity and the charges against him, which blows their whole secrecy thing. | |
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| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Lock him up for breaking the law said by russotto :They can't yet press a criminal case against him without revealing his identity and the charges against him, which blows their whole secrecy thing. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordin···endition or Gitmo. | |
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| Desdinova
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD | "He is breaking the law."
I agree! Lock up the FBI agent who wrote the letter and broke the law in the first place!! Oh wait, you meant the other guy... | |
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odreian615
join:2006-01-18
Chicago, IL | I trust the FBI Just as much as I trust FEMA, MPAA, RIAA, ATT, and other big group with 3-4 letters | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: I trust the FBI said by odreian615 :Just as much as I trust FEMA, MPAA, RIAA, ATT, and other big group with 3-4 letters And the ACLU, EFF, BBR ??
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: I trust the FBI said by TK Junk Mail :And the ACLU, EFF, BBR ?? I have yet to see any of those three impeding upon my rights, thanks.
...and BBR as an "evil agency"? Please. Every news outlet has their own slant, but none so controlling as to prevent changing the damn channel or surfing a different site. | |
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PolarBear
The asshole formerly known as aaron8301
join:2005-01-03
Riverside, WA
·CableOne
| I agree with the ISP... I agree with the ISP for not turning over the info.
If I were the ISP, I'd give the Feds a  !
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A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequilla. -- Mitch Ratcliffe | |
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pokesph
It Is Almost Fast
join:2001-06-25
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: I agree with the ISP... said by PolarBear :I agree with the ISP for not turning over the info. If I were the ISP, I'd give the Feds a ! well said..
as an small isp myself, i'd not have complied unless it was a legal and verifiable warrant from a court of law.
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Webmaster - Steve
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| | a1_Andy
Premium
join:2005-12-29
Campbellford, ON | Re: I agree with the ISP... agreed, come with warrant you get what the judge says you get. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |  Yawn....
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs:
| Re: Yawn.... said by pnh102 :As if the FBI only started "abusing its powers" in 2003... True, however, in recent memory, they haven't been as conspicuous about it and it hasn't been as widespread and endemic. This ain't your father's McCarthy years' FBI, J. Edgar.
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The Toll
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Yawn.... said by major marco :True, however, in recent memory, they haven't been as conspicuous about it and it hasn't been as widespread and endemic. This ain't your father's McCarthy years' FBI, J. Edgar. Uhh... J. Edgar Hoover had numerous FBI files on many, many, many people. He was literally untouchable, and even after his death one of his subordinates was still able to bring down a sitting president. That is abuse of power. Even if anything comes of these abuses, the worst that will happen are a few resignations in DoJ and maybe some prison time for those involved. At least, there is the possibility of accountability, when, contrasted to J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, there was none.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs:
| Re: Yawn.... said by pnh102 : Even if anything comes of these abuses, the worst that will happen are a few resignations in DoJ and maybe some prison time for those involved. I seriously doubt that. At the rate Big Boots Little Brain is going, Heckuva a job Torquemada Gonzales will end up with the Medal of Honor, and, the Feebs will get even more power to abuse.
If you don't think the widespread electronic surveillance of our telephone calls and emails is tantamount to abuse greater than J. Edgar perpetrated, then you haven't been paying very close attention. Well, either that or you just blindly worship totalitarian authority.
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The Toll
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Yawn.... said by major marco :I seriously doubt that. Doubt all you want. It's still 100% true. A single man can collect a lot of dirt on quite a few people in 50 years.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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| Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | more like prison time to people they designate as the fall guys. the real offenders usually never get caught unless someone really squeals.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
·Cox HSI
| surprise surprise.. ..."sought information to which the FBI was not entitled,"
How come that statement just doesn't surprise me one bit?
Who watches the watchers anyway?
How about we just stop using the internet entirely for one day? ...Seriously. A boycott of the internet for just one day. Then what would the watchers watch the watcher watch the watchers watch Big Brother do?
...Besides, if everyone unplugged completely from the 'net for even one day, think of how much power that'd save...
March 31st should be no internet day, then on April fools day everyone could get silly... | |
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MASantangelo
Premium
join:2004-07-19
Pittstown, NJ
| A thought. All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Good to see there are still some good people out there.
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Don't Let Them Take Your Rights! | |
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fatness
subtle
Janitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing
Host:
Earthlink DSL
TekSavvy
Forum Feature Requ..
Need Site Help?
Rants, Raves, & Pr..
edit:
March 23rd, @07:00PM
| quotes from the article quote:
The Justice Department's inspector general revealed on March 9 that the FBI has been systematically abusing one of the most controversial provisions of the USA Patriot Act: the expanded power to issue "national security letters." It no doubt surprised most Americans to learn that between 2003 and 2005 the FBI issued more than 140,000 specific demands under this provision -- demands issued without a showing of probable cause or prior judicial approval -- to obtain potentially sensitive information about U.S. citizens and residents.
quote:
I never released the information the FBI sought, and last November the FBI decided that it no longer needs the information anyway. But the FBI still hasn't abandoned the gag order that prevents me from disclosing my experience and concerns with the law or the national security letter that was served on my company. In fact, the government will return to court in the next few weeks to defend the gag orders that are imposed on recipients of these letters.
quote:
Without the gag orders issued on recipients of the letters, it is doubtful that the FBI would have been able to abuse the NSL power the way that it did. Some recipients would have spoken out about perceived abuses, and the FBI's actions would have been subject to some degree of public scrutiny.
Gag orders to hide illegal behavior.
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| FAQFixer
Premium
join:2004-06-28
Powder Springs, GA
edit:
March 23rd, @10:49PM
| Re: quotes from the article said by fatness : quote:
The Justice Department's inspector general revealed on March 9 that the FBI has been systematically abusing one of the most controversial provisions of the USA Patriot Act: the expanded power to issue "national security letters." It no doubt surprised most Americans to learn that between 2003 and 2005 the FBI issued more than 140,000 specific demands under this provision -- demands issued without a showing of probable cause or prior judicial approval -- to obtain potentially sensitive information about U.S. citizens and residents.
quote:
I never released the information the FBI sought, and last November the FBI decided that it no longer needs the information anyway. But the FBI still hasn't abandoned the gag order that prevents me from disclosing my experience and concerns with the law or the national security letter that was served on my company. In fact, the government will return to court in the next few weeks to defend the gag orders that are imposed on recipients of these letters.
quote:
Without the gag orders issued on recipients of the letters, it is doubtful that the FBI would have been able to abuse the NSL power the way that it did. Some recipients would have spoken out about perceived abuses, and the FBI's actions would have been subject to some degree of public scrutiny.
Gag orders to hide illegal behavior. Pure bovine scatology propaganda!
Some idiot with a specific agenda speaks and you lap it up as the truth. | |
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DownTheShore
Doing A Happy Dance
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Edison, NJ
clubs:
| I Think That In Hindsight... ...the things that have occurred during this presidency are going to be viewed on par with the McCarthy era regarding the erosion of personal rights and freedoms. The abuse of power that is occurring under the guise of fighting terrorism is appalling. There is no longer any presumption of innocence. Civil rights are being disregarded and the populance is urged by spin-doctors to think that is a good thing. The definition of "probable cause" is now laughable. It is a national disgrace, and I truly worry for this country, and what the legacy will be for our children and grandchildren.
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Life is simply one damned thing after another. | |
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signmeuptoo
President Obama A new age has arrived
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Tardis in TN
clubs:
·EarthLink
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
 ·Packet8
·AT&T Southeast
| I screwed up voting for Bush Ok, I admit it: Bush is downright evil now. I thought he was going to be a great guy because he seemed popular as a Governor in Texas, my former home. I also respected his dad and met some of his dad's compatriots during my time working in Houston.
But W. listens to Rove and all, and that guy is nothing short of flat out pure evil, I wouldn't be surprised if Rove is actually a demon working for the devil, I kid you not.
I am very worried that Bush will try and force himself into "reelection" by using the war as an excuse to steal yet another term, unlawfully, and then declare martial law on the citizens. He honestly scares me.
It is clear we are rapidly losing our freedoms and privacy and it is happening in a very scary way. If some leaders don't rise up to fight this, it may go so far it will become too late for us to stop it and we will turn into a police state like Germany before WWII.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
I am a conservative so disgusted I am changing parties.
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You know your life has gotten "DICEY" when it turns into an episode of LOST, like my ex wife, who I swear is one of "The Others"... !!!Save Lives: Join Team Discovery AND Team Helix, it is easy and painless to do!!! | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD | Just one of the costs ... of spreading freedom and democracy in the middle east.  | |
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| macaholic
Premium
join:2003-08-31
Jackson Heights, NY
edit:
March 23rd, @09:51PM
| Re: Just one of the costs ... said by cbrain :of spreading freedom and democracy in the middle east. please buy a vowel... the plan in Iraq is not working. Democracy has to be accepted not forced down someones throat like Catholicism during the missionary days... lots of folks got killed back then by the locals.
Ben
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"You don't subject minority rights to a referendum." Justice Minister Irwin Cotler of Canada | |
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AnonymousCoward
@verizon.net
| That is such bullshit ... ...
Living under the gag order has been stressful and surreal. Under the threat of criminal prosecution, I must hide all aspects of my involvement in the case -- including the mere fact that I received an NSL -- from my colleagues, my family and my friends. When I meet with my attorneys I cannot tell my girlfriend where I am going or where I have been. I hide any papers related to the case in a place where she will not look. When clients and friends ask me whether I am the one challenging the constitutionality of the NSL statute, I have no choice but to look them in the eye and lie.
...
The only thing the gag order does is tell this moron that he can not discuss the NSL, it's contents, or it's target. Other than that he can say that he is going to see his lawyer. He can say that he is filing against the FBI.
This hysterical stupid excess is damaging to his position, it looks like the poor fool never actually read the gag order to me. | |
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| FAQFixer
Premium
join:2004-06-28
Powder Springs, GA
| Re: That is such bullshit ... said by AnonymousCoward :
...
The only thing the gag order does is tell this moron that he can not discuss the NSL, it's contents, or it's target. Other than that he can say that he is going to see his lawyer. He can say that he is filing against the FBI.
This hysterical stupid excess is damaging to his position, it looks like the poor fool never actually read the gag order to me.
You are correct. However he is not stating this out of foolishness. He is specifically trying to make it look and sound outrageous simply to support his agenda. BTW, there no such thing as a "gag order" on the NSL, it is called a sealed order. | |
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ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17 | well duh ... who didn't see this | |
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Gag Order Prevents ISPs From Questioning FBI
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Lock him up for breaking the law