 |  | keyboard5684
join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
 ·WestPAnet Inc.
 ·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type EXACTLY! Customers do not care how there television, phone, internet, water, gas or any other service... gets delivered to there home. Some people may be a little curios, and those in the field like myself or the geeky ones may care, but most just do not care how the company does it.
Deliver RELIABLE service. That is the main thing.
Fast internet, well, not really. Most people just care it is fast enough things do not take forever.
Phone... just be reliable and cheap.
Television... provide the channels people want and CHEAP.
Cheap, reliable, fast services. If it is not reliable then they have to call in and ALL customer service sucks, Americans have come to accept that. In many cases people would rather switch then call in more than a few times, if there is an option.
So Fios means squat. It means the same as hybrid fiber coax systems or BPON or any other words that mean nothing to them.
Just provide good reliable services at a comparable cost that the person can afford. | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type said by keyboard5684  :So Fios means squat. It means the same as hybrid fiber coax systems or BPON or any other words that mean nothing to them. Just provide good reliable services at a comparable cost that the person can afford. FIOS is near Circuit Switched like DSL (max 1:32 share ratio, assuming all housing subscribe to FIOS, and 1 out of every 3 houses has 2 ONTs). Cable will have more like 1:100 to 1:400 ratio. So Cable is more likely to run into VOD or internet capacity and therefore reliability issues. FIOS is less likely to suffer from water infiltration problems than cable. A cable tech once showed me a rusted out tap that he was swapping out. Surprisingly it didn't affect my service, until he disconnected the hardline serving the block. 
So yeah, FIOS is more reliable than Cable. | |
| | | | keyboard5684
join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type Just like Fios it depends. If someone runs into a telephone pole with your fiber on it and it breaks, it goes down. Same with cable, fiber could break as well.
There are so many factors that make up statistics on reliability. Passive splitters, they have the same exact failure rate as a cable tap. If a cable plant is put together correctly that failure rate is even less. A tap should never be full of water but it happens when sloppy cable maintenance happens, seals are not... sealed!
I do not think there is enough data to say which one is more reliable. I have never, ever, had an outage of my fiber run (I have a fiber run to my house). I also have never had an outage of the cable internet connection. I designed the cable internet system so I got a fiber drop AND a coax drop independent of each other, fiber goes straight out and coax goes to headend (who would not take that option if they could). So in my experience, if it is well designed and maintained, it will not fail.
The coax plants are very forgiving. There is a lot of room for attenuation (like the water would certainly cause) and other problems. Fiber, there is no room for error. Since fiber is new, it will just be a matter of time before we see what will fail and where. My guess is the passive splitters but it could be anything really.
An ONT is an ONT. Fios has a 1 to 32 ratio per strand. I simply do not understand your other comparisons of ratios.
A tap can be repaired without taking out everyone else. It should have just taken out maybe the 8 subs on the tap. Who knows, maybe you polled the entire block to see if there services was out? | |
| | | | | 
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type Removing a tap from the hardline certainly will take out everyone else downstream from that since the cable is physically disconnected. The last time Comcast came through here replacing all the taps the cable was up and down all day long and into the next day. Not sure you really understand how this all works, or you're just being coy.
FiOS is 1 to 32 just like patcat88 said, and cable hangs anywhere from 100 to 500 or more houses on a single HFC 'node'. That topology is bandwidth limited due to the severely asymmetrical nature of the HFC network. Fiber does not suffer from that limitation. Coming back to your statement above, one failed tap can indeed affect every customer downstream, which could number in the hundreds, because in most cases the hardline passes through the tap. A passive fiber splitter failure would take out a much smaller number of customers.
As for coaxial cable being "forgiving", well, you're entitled to your opinion. But I've never seen a fiber network cited for leakage or failing due to signal ingress from nearby transmitters. Yes, it depends on how well the maintenance is handled, but cable companies are notoriously bad at that. | |
| | | | | | keyboard5684
join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
November 9th, @10:11PM
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type I agree cable companies are horrible at maintaining their plant, and that is generally because of the attitude/pride the employees have of the network.
I guess it is the design of the cable network too. We can pull a tap and there is a secondary bypass, hard to explain, more like a main that goes around that tap. We can pull a tap, like a module, and plug in a new one. If the thing is completely corroded or damaged then it would need to be pulled off but like I said usually the bypass will keep the rest up. Also, if it is that bad, everything downstream of that tap already had problems to begin with.
Generally I have never seen more than 200 on a node. As far as how many are beyond a tap, maybe 30 max.
It is all about design. Unfortunately what the big guys end up with is a bunch of old crap mixed in with new crap and a lot of un-caring employees doing what they have to just to make it "work". Well this is not the norm of a small network which is what I am dealing with.
| |
| | | | | | | 
VideoGuy
@verizon.net
 from:
TK Junk Mail
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type You'd be surprised. I've seen (first hand) nodes as small as 100 and as large as 1200. As someone mentioned, the designs and the actual builds run the gamut. Good operators are splitting nodes (physically and logically) like crazy right now getting everything tightened up and ready for FiOS and U-Verse. When they get to 200 homes/node, DOCSIS 3.0, Switched Digital Video and they get analog down to 70 channels, life will be very good indeed. Competition is a wonderful thing. | |
| | | | | |
VideoGuy
@verizon.net | As a general rule, taps are not daisy chained like that. | |
| | | | | | |
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Most users could care less about infrastructure type said by VideoGuy :
As a general rule, taps are not daisy chained like that.
As a general rule, they are here on this system. Which may go a long way to explain why it positively sucks.
Too bad cable didn't feel it was necessary to properly maintain outside plant and provide quality service until the competitive bite was put on their asses. | |
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Oh, I hate to say this. Tk has a point on this one. Even I do not care what method HSI(etc) gets delivered and I am a long term fan of fiber. As long as it is cheap, fast, and reliable (all in relative terms) people will be happy.
Elsewhere in the thread someone mentions greater loss of subs in Q308 than Q307, I think that MAY be due to the economy. The vast majority of the public (at least here) has been trying to cut costs(in a serious way) for the last 6 months. Some becuase they had to right then but many more becuase they are concerned about the future. | |
| | 
en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
·DSL EXTREME
| I agree. Its typically:
1. Is it available (duh) and competitve on price
2. Do I have any service issues (i.e. bad picture, outages, billing)
3. Does it have what I want I.e. HD channels that 'I' want. Do I have to have an STB/TV or just plain cable for my 'other' sets? Triple play ?
When I originally had the ability to sign up where I am, Comcast did not offer VoIP, and their Internet was $42+$3 (with $60 TV) or $ $57 standalone. AT&T was $29, but required POTS (which I needed anyways).
Now its the other way.
TWC offers $45 HSI standalone, and offers VoIP bundles
AT&T charges $40 for 3Mbps standalone... AT&T does not offer VoIP in most of California.
AT&T makes ordering a consistent package a chore.
Eg. DSL, DSL+POTS, DSL+POTS+Satellite, UverseTV+VDSL, UverseTV+VDSL+POTS
--
Canada = Hollywood North | |
| | 
dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by TK Junk Mail :FTTH & Fios are magic words to the technically sophisticated here at BBR, but it means nothing to the large majority of broadband and TV users. Until they discover they're not getting what they're paying for due to HFC limitations/loaded nodes.
fios has much more bandwidth on a node and a much smaller pool of people to share among. even on DOCSIS 3.0 the total bandwidth pool is smaller than whats available on fios' BPON technology and some are GPON which cable will NEVER be able to compete with(64 users on a cable node would be considered EMPTY and thats max on GPON!)
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
| | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
edit:
November 9th, @07:03PM
| Considering Im personally unhooking dozens of cablevision STB's and cable modems every week, and Im just one technician, I tend to disagree with the title of this thread.
FiOS IS HURTING Cablevision, even if its one lost customer, its still a loss. Now in reality, its not one, its thousands upon thousands of video customers migrating to Fios. These companies are ALL adding TV customers right now only because of the digital transition coming this February. After that, FiOS is going to start rocking the cable companies in adding video customers, especially in NY.
Whoever has stock in Scientific Atlanta, SELL SELL SELL lol Cablevision is not making any big orders anytime soon, refurbished STB's for ALL new customers for the next 10 years  | |
| 
NY Tel
"Please Wait For Dial Tone"
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY | FiOS versus CV This battle will keep my rates low for FiOS so that is a good thing, keep up the good work Cablevision. | |
| 
obeythelaw
Premium
join:2003-04-16
New Jersey | it's probably because FIOS hasn't penetrated much of cablevision's territory! i've been waiting for fios to get to me and it looks like it never will. for me, if fios arrives, i will be dumping cablevision.
--
Lets go Giants!! | |
| UofMiamiGrad
Premium
join:2001-02-03
Great Neck, NY
| 19K Video Subs Lost They lost 19K basic video subs, yet Cablevision claims they are seasonal subs. Does one think Cablevision is going to say, yeah FIOS took x amount? Please, they'll just say they are seasonal. Last year they lost approx 16K basic video subs in the 3rd quarter. So an increase of 3K basic video subs lost compared to the 3rd quarter last year. Something is going on. FIOS is not in a lot of Cablevisions footprint, but there are some effects from it, just not what a lot of people thought would be a much bigger effect. As long as prices are held in check from the competition, we the consumers benefit. | |
| | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Fredericksburg, TX
·Comcast
·Qwest.net
 ·magicjack.com
·BeeCreek Communica..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: 19K Video Subs Lost Cablevision is the only cableco I can think of who actually competes with FiOS on internet speed relative to price. They have had DOCSIS 2 for quite some time and their 30+/5 tier, so long as those speeds are maintained, should fend off FioS' speed offerings. For people who want to pay less, 15/2 is available on CV for the price of 10/2 (maybe slightly more, but not much more) on FiOS.
Of course, if service quality is poor and\or FiOS service quality is phenomenal (TV picture quality comes to mind) FiOS will win customers. Otherwise, Cablevision has a nice position, and with the DOCSIS 3 rollout could pump their $60 tier up to 50/10, and their lower-end tier to 20/5, and force FiOS to really go crazy with their GPON offering. I'll bet that by the end of next year FiOS will have a 100 Mbps tier in CV areas, which will e DOCSIS 3. If not, maybe Verizon will give significantly discounted LTE services for FiOS customers. Either way, sounds good to me. | |
| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by UofMiamiGrad :They lost 19K basic video subs, yet Cablevision claims they are seasonal subs. WTF is a seasonal subscriber? Unless this is for a Vacation house (and then the disconnect/reconnect fees make it worthless), how can there be a seasonal subscriber? Its like a seasonal residential electrical user. What do you do the other months of the year, use a candle? | |
| | | majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY | Re: 19K Video Subs Lost Well long island does have the hamptons and fire island with a lot of rental houses. | |
| | |
VideoGuy
@verizon.net
| Seasonal = Snowbirds, college kids, folks who own homes in several places and live in them for some part of the year. College towns and resort areas face this, not gigantic metro areas like NYC. Lame argument. They should have done like AT&T and blamed the economy. | |
| chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23 | piracy increases during recessions as people look for deals you mean like ok i cant afford hollywood dvdrs and blueray so ill save money and pirate?
ya that's what the real message is | |
| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: piracy increases during recessions as people look for deals said by chronoss2009 :you mean like ok i cant afford hollywood dvdrs and blueray so ill save money and pirate? ya that's what the real message is Cable piracy is dead AFAIK. Unless someone starts a service through TOR to distribute decryption keys in real time for the mpeg2. | |
| 
Jmartz
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ | Triple Play Wait until the triple play deals expire for all the cablevision "new" subscribers. Then they will probably give FIOS a try. | |
| | 
SSidlov
Other Things On My Mind
Premium
join:2000-03-03
Pompton Lakes, NJ | Re: Triple Play triple play works both ways... though I hear that CV has started being very generous and extended triple play. I know several friends who have had triple play extended for the second time in the last couple years. | |
| 
Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
|  FIOS vs CV
-Tzale
--
Neoconservatives (G.W.B) are not true conservatives. A conservative believes in defending the Constitution. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - RON PAUL 2008 | |
| 
IM1811
join:2001-08-20
Haverstraw, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| The Word on the Street..... 1. The word on the street is that there are many local governments in the Cablevision footprint that have still not allowed Fios TV franchises in yet.
2. The word on the street is that Opt. Voice is 'terrible' compared to the 'old' phone company voice service and many current Opt. Voice customers can't wait to switch back.
3. The word on the street at this point says that Fios TV, along with free multi-room DVR's, is what EVERYONE wants for Christmas. Cable DVR's are 10 bucks plus each room a month.
Bonus word on the street: Fios HD just looks better.
4. The word on the street is that many major landlords have begun to arrange for Fios installs in their buildings, and when that happens, watch out.
5. The word on the street is that NYC has had only 400,000 installs so far and 8 million people live there.
6. The word on the street is that that OOnline still has major dropouts in service in places like Brooklyn and Queens, and those subscribers all plan on the switch.
7. The word on the street is don't believe a word Moffett says. The recession started in NY on September 14.........
--
»www.bartgordon.net | |
| | | | majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
| Word is on the street that verizon copper voice stinks and WORD on the street is that I had to switch to Optimum voice because WORD on the Street is that verizon told me that they refuse to switch.
So WORD on the street says Optimum voice is much better qauality. | |
| | | | | | | | | 
La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online
| said by IM1811 :1. The word on the street is that there are many local governments in the Cablevision footprint that have still not allowed Fios TV franchises in yet. 2. The word on the street is that Opt. Voice is 'terrible' compared to the 'old' phone company voice service and many current Opt. Voice customers can't wait to switch back. 3. The word on the street at this point says that Fios TV, along with free multi-room DVR's, is what EVERYONE wants for Christmas. Cable DVR's are 10 bucks plus each room a month. Bonus word on the street: Fios HD just looks better. 4. The word on the street is that many major landlords have begun to arrange for Fios installs in their buildings, and when that happens, watch out. 5. The word on the street is that NYC has had only 400,000 installs so far and 8 million people live there. 6. The word on the street is that that OOnline still has major dropouts in service in places like Brooklyn and Queens, and those subscribers all plan on the switch. 7. The word on the street is don't believe a word Moffett says. The recession started in NY on September 14......... At least half of those "word on the street" anecdotes aren't true, not to mention they don't apply to the majority. What makes you think everyone in CV land lives in some giant apt complex that would be affected by anything some landlord does?
Also, got any proof, such as links, to the validity of your statements for your "word on the street" pearls of wisdom, other than your opinion? 
--
12,202 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11~~SARAH BRIGHTMAN SYMPHONY WORLD TOUR | |
| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| fios is more costly.. price for some is king... and Verizon ain't the cheapest service on the block... but the internet is pretty good.
I can't imagine Verizon, or Time Warner sticking to a $29.95 price tag for 10 years, let alone customer by customer basis in really competitive areas.
Yes, Cablevision's service probably does suck in some parts of it's footprint... and for that, they may pay for it in small chunks of the footprint switching. As for a mass exodus... that's all speculation.
From my perspective.. I had OV(optimum voice) back 4-5 years ago... and it DID suck, bigtime. I think they've improved it around the margins (and there still is room for improvement, such as that hideous voicemail system)... newer battery backed cablemodems and somewhat improved sound quality (QOS) is now there where it had not been before. As for it's being better/more reliable than FIOS/POT$ ... is moot at this point.. fans of both providers can find something they like and hate about both companies. Go where you get the best service and the best deal... and if you sign a contract.. say with Verizon... make sure you add in some caveats of your own... such as:
1. Don't screw up my billing.
2. Dont' overcharge.
3. Don't nickel and dime for extras (the FCC will have to $uck real hard to try and get $6+ from my voip access)
4. Have an exit-clause, or pro-rated ETF should service on any of the FIOS products degrade or a competitor offers a sweet deal (think docsis 3.0)
Cable companies are more flexible in their offerings and will waive, reduce or not have ETFs, installation fees now. This is how they compete in the era of Uverse and Fios. Expanded docsis 3 in 2009... | |
| | majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY | Re: fios is more costly.. Cablevision was using a different telephone system 4-5 years ago which wasnt voice over ip . Now its voip which is different. | |
| | | | | 
n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| One thing to add is that FiOS adds additional fees and taxes for voice and internet that CV does not, such as the $6.50 FCC Line Charge. CV has its own nuisance fees but those are for the video services which is to be expected since they are the incumbent provider. Your best deal, assuming you are not on triple play, would be to get video through FiOS and voice and internet through CV.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
| | | UofMiamiGrad
Premium
join:2001-02-03
Great Neck, NY
| Re: fios is more costly.. said by n2jtx :One thing to add is that FiOS adds additional fees and taxes for voice and internet that CV does not, such as the $6.50 FCC Line Charge. There is no additional charge for Internet, what you are priced at is what you pay. Voice is where the taxes and fees get you. I pay an addition $14/month on taxes and fees for my freedom essentials ($25/month) under the double play bundle. My 20/20 is $54.99 and there is not a single fee or tax added to it. | |
| | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
| quote:
Cable companies are more flexible in their offerings and will waive, reduce or not have ETFs, installation fees now. This is how they compete in the era of Uverse and Fios. Expanded docsis 3 in 2009...
Cable doesnt lock customers in ONLY because their installations are much cheaper for the company. Theres a lot of manpower and hardware that goes into FiOS installations so it absolutley must be done. Its almost the same as getting a free cellphone BUT you must sign up for X amount of time so they can make the money back.
If you want the best product out there, and god, Cablevision is SO 1990's, you gotta be a FiOS customer for a while. Most like it, and stay. | |
| njcellfreak
join:2006-12-28
Union City, NJ
edit:
November 9th, @06:15PM
| Well of course it's not hurting Cablevision yet... It's NOT f*cking available anywhere!!! HELLOOOOOO??? Deployment? CV could care less if Fios is currently available to little houses in West Bubble F*ck, Connecticut. Deploy it where it matters like in Brooklyn and the Bronx. BUILDINGS NOT HOUSES, BUILDINGS I SAID, you know the ones with 20 or more floors, etc. Then that'll scare the $hit out of CV. They aint gonna care about houses. It's 1 god damn customer per house. Deploy the f*cking buildings, multiple dwellings, etc. I'd take Verizon seriously if they had the balls to deploy Co-Op City up in the Bronx right now. Not wait a few years, NOW! Then I'd actually take them a little more seriously.
Once Verizon gets on the ball, stops the redlining cherry picking bull$hit (and please dont tell me they dont cause you know damn well they still do) and deploys fios where it matters, CV won't give a f*ck. And CV probably won't give a f*ck for a good 10-15 years. By then no one will probably give a f*ck because the novelty will be over.
The geeks will be bitching about the caps, the slowdowns due to the increase of new subs and the deteriorating picture quality due to overcompression of channels and higher bills. But on a positive note, competition is always nice. | |
| brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Miami, FL | FIOS Come to Miami : ) | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
PX Eliezer
join:2008-08-09
Wickatunk, NJ
·voip.ms
·Optimum Voice
·Callcentric
| Verizon hurts itself. Elsewhere on this forum, and all over the web, you can find stories of the horrid customer service from Verizon FiOS. Yes, cable has problems too, but nothing like the awful billing problems that seem so common with FiOS.
---------------------------------------
And yes, people do not care about the technology. In my job, I have to ask homeowners if they have oil heat (common in the northeast) or gas heat. Most can't tell me!! I then have to say, "Does an oil truck come to your house?" If not, and if they have a gas stove, then we figure they have gas heat.
Cyril M. Kornbluth in his 1951 story "The Marching Morons" predicted that people would get dumber as the technology got smarter. | |
| | nitrous9200
join:2007-11-29
Rye, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Verizon hurts itself. Perhaps they're common, but the subscriber will usually get a credit towards their bill, gift card or some other remediation. The FiOS that I've had for over a year now has been rock solid, one dropout of video caused by another company cutting the cable (which was fixed in about 4 hours) and that's it. And no billing issues to speak of either, but a free TV worth a few hundred dollars? That was nice. And the CS reps I've spoken to were very friendly and knowledgeable. It depends on who you get...
P.S. Many people I know are getting FiOS simply because the service is better and usually will end up paying less per month. And a lot of the computers coming through my shop have FiOS Service Summary icons on their desktops; you know what that means. | |
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FiOS Not Hurting Cablevision...Yet
Most users could care less about infrastructure type
