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 |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
edit: July 28th, @06:32PM
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells regardless of which "side" one is on, the fact seems to remain that the simplest way to solve bandwidth problems (if there really are bandwidth problems) is TO ADD MORE BANDWIDTH.
but that's not sexy
and it cost money
and when you buy the DPI equipment, it lets you do all sorts of other stuff!
oh, by the way, McDowell is either ignorant of the facts or he chose to misrepresent what was actually found by Robb and the AP, because his description of what happened appears to be straight from Comcast press releases (I know, what a shock). | |
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 |  |  jaminus
join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells I, for one, would gladly download terabytes a month if my ISP allowed it. Do I need all that stuff? Not really. But if the bandwidth's there, I'll certainly use it. And so would many others as well.
Yes, capacity has got to increase, and that's why companies are investing in things like laying fiber, pair-bonding POTS lines, hybrid fiber-coax, DOCSIS 3.0, VDSL2, and the like.
Ultimately, though, there will ALWAYS be finite bandwidth and infinite demand for bandwidth. If you build it, they will come. That's why it's so important to manage a scarce resource in a manner that suits those who use the resource.
Is Sandvine the best way to manage a network? Probably not. But it's not entirely clear that "peak metering" is the best way, either -- after all, only 6% of Comcast's users were P2P users, and it's possible that far more users will be affected by the new metering system Comcast will soon implement.
Politicians should not be the ones who decide how ISPs deal with congestion. Competition among providers to give consumers the best possible service will benefit all of us in the long run. The fact that sometimes, some companies will make mistakes (i.e. Sandvine) is not a valid reason for abandoning the principles of freedom and private network ownership. | |
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 |  |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by jaminus :Politicians should not be the ones who decide how ISPs deal with congestion. Competition among providers to give consumers the best possible service will benefit all of us in the long run. Agreed, but politicians, unfortunately, are the only ones who ultimately make the decisions when it comes to the very competition that you refer to. | |
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 |  |  |   A_nano_mouse
@transbay.net
| All we need is FIBER. Copper is obsolete and wireless is "stupid" until we can really reform the FCC and open the spectrum properly.
FIBER is the way to go. if 10 gbps adapters are commodified by the time you deploy, then you'll start offering your users 10 gigabit connections. Otherwise you'll have to do with a paltry ONE GIGABIT per second - aw darn.
WE (the citizens) build it - WE (the citizens hiring locally) run it - and that will be the future to live in.
See »communityfiber.org | |
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 |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast
| said by nasadude :and when you buy the DPI equipment, it lets you do all sorts of other stuff! I think it was Bob Briscoe who said at the IETF P2P Working Group that for every $1 dollar spent on DPI the ISP saved $10 in infrastructure increases.
I guess that's good, if the only thing you worry about is controlling your costs. It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users want. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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 |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by funchords :It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users want. Rewrite: It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users music & movie thieves want. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by TK Junk Mail :.. and content that the users music & movie thieves want. TK, you are so predictable.
copyright infringement isn't theft, so they can't be thieves. Sometimes I think you're a caricature of a real person. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by nasadude :said by TK Junk Mail :.. and content that the users music & movie thieves want. Sometimes I think you're a caricature of a real person. A recent photo:
 TK Junk Mail at home :)
-- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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join:2005-12-09 49533
| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by Jovi :Can we ever have a debate about bandwidth that does not involve being thieves? Not as long as TK is still allowed to post. | |
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 |  |  |  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| The complaints about VPN or SSH being broken by DPI shoot a whole in your argument that DPI only affects "music & movie thieves". -- --- Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells holy crap!
So what's the bet, that they're not really going to do upstream channel bonding RSN? | |
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 |   tschmidt Premium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL
| I think that is a good point - what jurisdiction does the FCC have over Internet access?
It is too bad Congress has not had the will to develop a set of Network Neutrality guidelines. Social policy ought to be made by government and then private enterprise figures out how to play profitably in that arena.
Internet access will become more important over time. The rules governing access should be debated publicly. From past experience regulations that were often not in the best interest of short term profitability have turned out to be very positive for long term growth because they facilitate innovation whereas it is in a company's best interest to stifle competitive upstarts.
/tom | |
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 |   Teehee
@tds.net
| said by Mike :If the world was full of engineers we'd be in spaceships flying around the galaxy by now. Politicians like to get their hands on everything and dumb it up. Don't forget about corporate talking heads and marketeers getting in the way of their company engineers. THAT is the real problem. The engineer says what the maketeer wants to say and comes up with tech justifications. That doesn't sound too goo either. | |
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 |  |   TScheisskopf World News Trust
join:2005-02-13 Belvidere, NJ
·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: engineers have always had this problem Yup. Dave Haynie is a good friend of mine(Google is your friend here). It is quite entertaining to hear him get on a roll about marketing droids and clue-deprived management types. Most enlightening.
And no, the problem is not politicians. That's a common trope used by people who desperately want to believe corporations are their BFF. | |
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 |  |  |   jslik That just happened Premium join:2006-03-17 clubs:
| Re: engineers have always had this problem Yes, Dave Haynie is probably THE expert about clueless management killing superior technology...
I still fire up my old 2000 from time to time and wonder "what may have been..."  -- If they told you wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them? -"Planes, Trains & Automobiles" | |
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 |   Dogfather Altitude is your friend Premium join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA | And if the spaceships were controlled by Comcast you would be paying overage fees if you passed 10,000 ft. But damn, you would get to 10K ft really quick. | |
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 SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13 Seattle, WA | Expected This is why idiots shouldnt run the FCC. When politicians are in control of tech/communications stupid decisions will be made. | |
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 nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| geez Karl "...that would be quickly fixed if the government started hiring non-partisan, independent engineers and technologists as FCC Commissioners, and stopped staffing the agency with lobbyists."
I guess you'll want some flying pigs along with that? | |
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 bjbrock
join:2002-10-28 Mcalester, OK
| Two things need to be done. Start charging for the actual bandwidth used. And immediately start shoring up the broadband infrastructure.
Those who use more should pay more. All goods and services work this way.
At the same time, internet traffic is only going to get worse. If those in charge of the infrastructure don't start increasing it size these kind of problems will get out of hand. If they aren't already. | |
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 |  jaminus
join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA
| Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR McDowell's language was surely inflammatory, and probably unjustifiably so. But in the net neutrality debate, everybody--from the "public interest" groups like Free Press to the telcos themselves--is using powerful language to describe complicated concepts to the masses.
In a sense, McDowell does have a point, though. Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status.
Will the Internet "grind to a halt" if the FCC rules against Comcast? Not likely. But if providers lose the right to run their networks as they see fit, it's highly likely that investment will decrease and the expansion of networks will be slower than it would otherwise be. Why spend billions laying fiber across the nation if regulators are going to swoop in and tell you that your pricing model is "unfair??
Progress happens because firms develop and implement new products, new pricing models, and new ways of doing business. If you curtail experimentation on account of a single company's mistake, you just might lose "good" experimentation, too. | |
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 |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR said by jaminus :In a sense, McDowell does have a point, though. Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status. Do you even know what you're talking about - The Feds were the ones responsible for disassembling Ma Bell back in the 80s. Do you think for one microsecond that if that had not happened the Internet would have had a snowball's hope in hell of ever becoming what it is today? | |
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 |  |  |   nonuser
@comcast.net
| Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR Um, no. Ma Bell agreed to split up after fighting it for 14 years.
And exactly how did that have anything to do with the CABLE INDUSTRY coming in and basically creating the HSD industry in the US by providing people with affordable home HSD?
EVERY phone switch installed for the last 30 YEARS has been capable of ISDN, yet the phone companies REFUSED a general roll out of it, until it was to late and the cable companies made ISDN speeds look silly (and expensive). EVERY RBOC had ZERO plans to sell affordable HSD to consumers, until the cable companies jumped in.
Thank the CABLE COMPANIES for bringing competition and INNOVATION to HSD, without them you would still be paying $80 a month OR MORE for ISDN (if you could even get it).
Do you even know what you're talking about - The Feds were the ones responsible for disassembling Ma Bell back in the 80s. Do you think for one microsecond that if that had not happened the Internet would have had a snowball's hope in hell of ever becoming what it is today? | |
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 |  |  |  |   Iron Curtain
@verizon.net
| Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR Actually, if wikipedia is to be believed, Silver Surfer is right:
The rest of the telephone monopoly lasted until final settlement of a 1974 United States Department of Justice antitrust suit against AT&T on January 8, 1982, under which AT&T ("Ma Bell") agreed to divest its local exchange service operating companies, in return for a chance to go into the computer business (see AT&T Computer Systems). AT&T's local operations were split into seven independent Regional Bell Operating Companies known as "Baby Bells".
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Note: Bold mine. Source: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_T···elegraph
So the US government did disassemble AT&T. Unless Wikipedia is wrong (which it could be)...then it needs some editin'... | |
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 |  |   tschmidt Premium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by jaminus : Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status. The initial deal was in response to rivalry between competing phone companies that refused to interconnect with one another. During the early days you could only call subscribers if there were customers of your phone company.
Then in the 1980's when it became clear monopolist regulations were stifling innovation Telecom Divestiture occurred.
said by jaminus :Progress happens because firms develop and implement new products, new pricing models, and new ways of doing business. If you curtail experimentation on account of a single company's mistake, you just might lose "good" experimentation, too. There is always a trade-off. I'd argue there is little to no competition in first-mile access space. What little there is is not focused on maximizing social value it is, as it should be, focused on maximizing profitability. In some cases maximizing profitability is good social policy in other it is not.
The Net Neutrality debate is about how to strike that delicate balance.
/tom | |
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 garmst
join:2000-09-17 New York, NY
edit: July 28th, @05:47PM
| If Politicians ran the Internet 1. There would be minimum bandwidth allocations for minority use.
2. Black Internet users would have higher bandwidth caps to make up for past white people's rapacious usage.
3. All offensive speech would be banned.
4. Every web page has to have a non-smoking, non-sexist, non-gender, equal opportunity, decals.
5. Cigarette, Pharmaceutical and Oil companies will be banned from operating web sites.
6. NASCAR web sites will be put on probation.
7. All ISP's must have minority ownership and purchasing set asides.
8. All bits must be recycled! | |
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 |  SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13 Seattle, WA | Re: If Politicians ran the Internet It sounds like you pulled this out of your ass. | |
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 |  |  Shoreline Your Freedom Fries Are Stale
join:2003-09-29 Santa Clara, CA | Re: If Politicians ran the Internet I think it was, as usual, was passed down through the family. | |
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 |  cornelius785
join:2006-10-26 Worcester, MA | good points, but i think the internet's tubes would permanently clog up (obviously nothing would get done with politicians running the intarnetz) leading to a new underground internet. probably would be a direct result from most of those points. | |
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 |   tv_watcher
@comcast.net
| Well, I agree with 1 and 2, but 3 is a stretch because the 1st amendment would come into play.
4 and 5 are completely wrong because a large quantity of politicians (esp NeoCons) are sponsored by those corporations, and almost all politicians are racist/homophobic (to some extent).
It's just the way of the world (horribly enough)! | |
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 |  SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17 Laramie, WY
| McDowell sees through lobbyists One of McDowell's best traits is that, having once been a lobbyist, he recognizes their motivations and sees right through their falsehoods. While some of the other Commissioners seem to have been bamboozled by Free Press, Inc. and to have swallowed its lies hook, line and sinker, McDowell hasn't. He should be appointed Chairman. | |
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 |  |   Twilight23
@comcast.net | Re: McDowell sees through lobbyists lol
I really hope you're joking. McDowell used to be a lobbyist and that is where his loyalties still clearly lie.
Do you honestly think Free Press is telling remotely as many or as massive a lies as the telcos? | |
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  meh37
@verizon.net | Makes me wonder... regarding his "editorial"...
do lobbyists pay him by the word or by the vote? | |
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 radam
join:2004-02-13 Fairfax Station, VA edit: July 28th, @11:56PM
| FCC and cable regulations... FCC should promote competition.. It straightened out Cox's attitude towards customers in Northern VA once Verison FIOS came into town! Perhaps it would correct Comcast's behavior as well. | |
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 munky99999 Captain Munky
join:2004-04-10 canada clubs:
| Comcast should be punished |
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