 
Maggs
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY | NYC will have a lot more problems The soft cutoff will make people think the TV is broken and they'll go out and buy a new one.
--
NIL ILLEGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM! | |
|  | 
Flummoxed
Premium
join:2002-01-24
Saint Peters, MO | Re: NYC will have a lot more problems Nice little economy boost if 100’s of people all go out at buy new lcd/plasma tv all of a sudden lol. | |
| 
guypd
join:2008-05-08
Silver Springs, NY | Rural loses out In our area, we live slightly closer to Rochester, than Buffalo. We watch the analog stations from Rochester.
However, we can not receive any of the digital stations from Rochester, only Buffalo. | |
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Rural loses out guypd
Have you checked over at tvfool to see if they are going to turn up the power after the switchover? Many stations are now only putting out a low power DT signal but will turn it up after the switch over. Here one station will be going from 100 to 800. Which I am assuming will greatly effect the range of the digital signal.
Personally, if they are going to do additional tests, I hope they do it here in St. Louis. It is a larger market and I would suspect that there is significant portion of the market that is OTA. Besides, I want that power increase on the one station that I do not get in digital. | |
| | | | | | 
BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by Lazlow  :guypd Have you checked over at tvfool to see if they are going to turn up the power after the switchover? Many stations are now only putting out a low power DT signal but will turn it up after the switch over. Here one station will be going from 100 to 800. Which I am assuming will greatly effect the range of the digital signal. Most people don't get this point. They assume because they aren't getting in good signals NOW that in Feb they will contimue to get poor signal strrength. The reason for the poor signals is that the stations are having to carry both digital AND analog signals. | |
| | | | | | oztambo
join:2007-12-08
Chula Vista, CA | hey, guypd
There ain't much in Rochester, so that means ya work for Xerox or Kodak, but I guess ya like snow...
I think ya in trouble but I have family in Rome and they are way worse off........ | |
| | | | | | 
Mactron
el camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv
| Re: Too late to delay transistion To far down the Digital path to turn the ship now. Some of your/my channels will run aground. Other will appear with the sub channels. Full steam ahead. Bye-bye ABC. 
--
If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well.  | |
| | 
TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| said by tschmidt :This has been in the works for years. I say full speed ahead. Best thing to do is go ahead with analog phaseout. Once broadcasters are on their post transition channels evaluate coverage areas and interference levels. If change is needed some may be accommodated with antenna redesign in other cases by increase in transmit power or locating low power translators. Problems are only going to be dealt with once there is no other choice. Not going to know full impact of digital conversion will have until millions of people involved in different areas of the country. Calculating radio wave propagation is part science part black magic. As someone dependant on over the air TV I hope it works. Living in a fringe area I've done a lot of research and am spending a fair amount of money to upgrade our roof top antenna. If it doesn't work out our family will either watch less TV or opt for paying monthly fee to Satellite or Cable provider. No matter what happens it is not the end of the world. /tom I agree with your take. Adelstein is right that more education MAY help. But, ultimately, he has been lobbying for a delay in the cutover. And I disagree with that. It is way past time to do this and more delays won't change 1 damn thing.
After the cut, then go in and clean up what failed. And there always those who will never be prepared no matter what. You can't help those people.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
| | | vinnie97
join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX
1 edit | Re: Too late to delay transistion aye, to hell with the poor and elderly, let them pound sand.  | |
| | goalieskates
join:2004-09-12
Knoxville, TN
·Knology
·Comcast
| If businesses operated that way, they wouldn't still be in business.
I can't tell you the times we've rolled out new systems, conversions, etc. You test, test, test, adjust and test some more. You do NOT throw the company and/or users into total chaos and promise development "later."
It's easy to say it's only tv, but an awful lot of people in those fringe areas are also the people for whom there are no real broadband options. This is infrastructure and needs to be taken seriously.
Whoever is running this show needs some real project managers and to hit this thing hard. | |
| | | 
Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
join:2003-09-16
Warren, OH
clubs: 
| Re: Once again! I'm sorry, but what? You do realize that the actual transmission format doesn't make one bit of difference to how the signal propagates from the transmitter to your antenna? Doesn't care whether it's analog, digital, FM, AM, HD, Betamax, or the next best format to come out.
What the signal DOES care about though is what frequency is broadcasted and at what power. The higher the frequency, the more power required and the less the signal can go through certain obstacles (like buildings or trees). The lower the frequency, less power is required and it has a batter time making it through said obstacles.
Now for the unwashed masses here, OTA digital broadcasts use the same general block of frequencies utilized by existing OTA analog broadcasts for AGES.
The difference here is that PRE-transition, these digital broadcasts are utilizing much less power than their analog counterparts. But as of the final transition in february, many of these stations WILL be increasing their transmission power by quite a bit and while it still probably won't be anywhere near the transmission power held by their analog counterparts, it'll be more than enough to get a stable signal lock. Digital tuners don't need nearly as clear of a signal to get a watchable broadcast compared to the signal needed to get a crystal clear analog broadcast.
--
I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz | |
| | | qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Vonage
4 edits | Wrong! If the FCC had done their modelling and allocating of DTV channels correctly (hint: they didn't!), they would have put all UHF DTV channels in the cities, and then put mostly High Band VHF channels in the suburbs and rural areas. They would have not allowed Low Band DTV channels at all. Why? High band VHF travels MUCH further then UHF, while UHF offers far better building penetration, which is needed in cities.
In other words, exploit the physics of each band for best results.
Low Band VHF is unsuitable for DTV due to 'skip'-and the idiot TV stations who plan to use it will quickly be looking for relief come next summer when their station is essentially 'off air' most every night....
Instead we have a MESS of all three bands mixed, and most of us that can now use rabbit ears in the city will have to either subscribe to cable or put up an outdoor antenna to receive DTV.
The irony is that the FCC originally WANTED to do things this way, but the TV broadcasters lobbied for the piss poor allotment system we have today-and got it!
Finally, don't get me started about us choosing 8-VSB for our DTV system while the rest of the world went with COFDM (which works FAR better in multipath prone areas like cities!).
How much better? The TV stations use it for their ENG live news pickups and studio to transmitter links! THEY don't even use the system we picked themselves.
It's REALLY going to be fun next Feb. in cities like Los Angeles and New York, when most network affiliates move to their VHF channels for DTV only to find that most off air viewers can't see them any more. Why? Most indoor DTV antennas are UHF only, and work like CRAP receiving VHF! | |
| | | 
cornelius785_nli
@verizon.net
| Re: Once again! you clearly don't understand communication systems at all. you really should look into multipath, which was brought up by qworster. you also should looking into peak-to-average power ratio, spectral efficiency, and the how to realize a transmitter and receiver, nevermind the land of RF (LNAs, mixers, filters, antennaes) | |
| |
BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by qworster :Once again, the USA shoots themselves in the foot! The HDTV system adopted in this country is so piss poor that I am going to have to either subscribe to DirecTv HD service (at 15 dollars more a month over what I pay now, plus 200 dollars for a new receiver and dish) or put up an outdoor antenna (assuming my landlord will let me) at the cost of a couple hundred dollars just to get the LOCAL CHANNELS from right in the middle of Los Angeles! But I guess I'm lucky-I at least have OPTIONS to pick the signals up! Many in the boonies will be LOSING their TV! See, UHF was never designed to go long distances-it's an urban/suburban medium. I know, I know..it's what we have and we have to live with it...BUT can't we ONCE learn our lesson and do something right?? Or at least get it right the next time? We didn't learn with color TV..we didn't learn with UHF and now we didn't learn with HDTV. We didn't learn with AM stereo, and now we haven't learned with digital (HD) radio. Can we please learn sometime?Please? Um this transition has NOTHING to do with HDTV. | |
| | 
tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| said by qworster : The HDTV system adopted in this country is so piss poor that I am going to have to either subscribe to DirecTv HD service (at 15 dollars more a month over what I pay now, plus 200 dollars for a new receiver and dish) or put up an outdoor antenna (assuming my landlord will let me) at the cost of a couple hundred dollars.
The pros and cons of 8-VSB vs COFDM are much subtler trade-off they you make out. said by qworster :UHF was never designed to go long distances-it's an urban/suburban medium. That is nothing about the transition that mandates use of UHF. Post transition stations have the option of migrating to VHF. VHF low is plagued by noise interference so not many stations are moving back. Here in southern NH Both stations and Channel 7 out of Boston are moving back to VHF High. said by qworster :We didn't learn with color TV..we didn't learn with UHF and now we didn't learn with HDTV. What Color TV issue are you referring to? I think it was a engineering marvel making it backward compatible with black and white. Quite an accomplishment with 1950's vacuum tube technology. It is true UHF has much higher path loss then VHF. But there is not enough capacity for TV at lower frequencies. What service would you remove to make space for more TV channels? As BF69 posted this has nothing to do with HDTV. This is a transition from analog to digital broadcast. Digital is much more efficient allowing stations to broadcast multiple programs in same bandwidth that only allows a single analog program. It also takes less energy to cover the same area - reducing energy costs. said by qworster : We didn't learn with AM stereo, and now we haven't learned with digital (HD) radio. I don't listen to AM and have no problems with FM audio quality so have not paid any attention to either. What is the problem and what is the solution? /tom | |
| | 
rolande
Certifiable
Premium,Mod
join:2002-05-24
Powell, OH
clubs:
Host:
Linksys
AT&T Midwest
| said by qworster :See, UHF was never designed to go long distances-it's an urban/suburban medium. I'm not so sure that is as big a problem as you might suggest. But I guess it does depend on the type of antenna that is being used.
When I lived in the far western Chicago suburbs 3 years ago (~37 miles from the station transmitters) I was able to pick up all the digital channels at or very near full strength, aside from CBS Channel 2. But that is another story. CBS is transmitted off the John Hancock building and has many other issues to deal with that cause the signal to continually pixelate. I have a Channel Master antenna that is rated for deep fringe. I have it mounted in my attic and it works beautifully.
--
Scott, CCIE #14618 Routing & Switching
Too bad those that know it all can't do it all.
»www.thewaystation.com/techref/tech.shtml
»blog.thewaystation.com/ | |
| | 
rec9140
Provoice just DO it
join:2003-07-29
Mulberry, FL
| said by qworster :
Once again, the USA shoots themselves in the foot!The HDTV system adopted in this country is so piss poor
DVB-T.Europe did this right, for a change.
ATSC is just as screwed up as NTSC has been since the addition of color.
said by qworster :
or put up an outdoor antenna (assuming my landlord will let me)
He doesn't get a say:
»www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
said by qworster :
We didn't learn with AM stereo, and now we haven't learned with digital (HD) radio.
AM Stereo was screwed from the fact that instead of choosing a standard between Motorola (CQAM) and Harris, Maganvox and Kahn..Ok, so the FCC set a standard and atypical the corp slease bring out the lawyers......
By the time the market place and the FCC decide that CQAM (Motorola) should be the standard its too late...
AM Stereo really never had a chance with the public and the standard debacle didn't help. AM has been dead in the mind of the public for years. The fact they never took the AM band out of the radios is probably simply it was cheaper to leave it in.
As for HD aka ibquity well can't say that I really care.....commercial radio is dead.... Sirrus is where its at, although XM could wither up and die as far as I am concerned (so I guess you get my opinion of the merger! Listen up don't screw up those surveys and screw up MY MUSIC!  Sirrus 5,6 & 75 RULE!)
HD/ibquity is just like NTSC..... a huge compromise......Digital with backward compatbilty towards current analog FM.
Just like the transition from analog to digital TV, FM should have been switched to pure digital and dump the analog....yep..... that radio in the old Studebaker would be dead too! (Ok, so its unlikely that the old Studebaker had an FM radio...)
DAB v. HD/ibquity ??? Theres been criticism a plenty for both systems... Honestly I think that the 88-108MHz area is ripe to be turned over to other uses ie public safety and wireless data and transition everyone to Sirrus.
said by qworster :
Can we please learn sometime?Please?
As soon as the geeks, nerds, and engineers are in charge and the corporate slease and sleawyers are slain and put back in their coffins we might have a chance. Till then.... welcome to the corporate greed state.
--
Ban all copyright, trademarks, and IP laws!//Lorem ipsum ei pro stet equidem labores, at enim animal expetenda nec. Ea vix argumentum dissentiunt, usu esse ridens ex. | |
| |
Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
join:2003-09-16
Warren, OH
clubs:
1 edit | Why not allow full power digital alongside analog? I think the biggest gripe that has been had so far is the requirement of the broadcasters to use such low transmitting power on the digital carriers while keeping up analog service and the majority of the public have seen the lack of range on these channels as a carved-in-stone expectation of what's to come in february. This is certainly not the case, but many people seem to think it is.
My question is why the FCC has not allowed these broadcasters to use full power for the digital transmission alongside analog? Aside from some possible long range interference to distant channels on the same frequency, I haven't seen much of a REAL explanation why this can't happen.
Perfect example: Analog here I can pull in about 6 stations that are watchable. Digital I can only pick up 2 (not counting sub-channels). But I have done my homework and know that 3 of those stations I can't receive are barely pushing 50kW now but will be increasing that ten-fold come the transition date to where I CAN pick them up no problem. I'm not complaining to the broadcasters for this oversight. It's not their problem and I'm certain their engineers would love to push more power NOW to attain better range. But it's not their call, it's the FCC's.
--
I swear, some people should have pace-makers installed to free up the resources. Breathing and heart beat taxes their whole system, all of their brain cells wasted on life support.-two bit brains, and the second bit is wasted on parity! ~head_spaz | |
| | Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL | Re: Why not allow full power digital alongside analog? Channel 2 digital in Chicago needs to boost it's power as a lot of people have a hard time getting it. | |
| | |
conundrum7
@ameritech.net
| Re: Why not allow full power digital alongside analog? > Channel 2 digital in Chicago needs to boost it's power as a lot of people have a hard time getting it.
"hard" is an understatement. I'm about 20 miles out and get nothing on their digital channel (RF3). A few others I've talked to get the same results. I'm hoping when they bump power up and move to RF12 that things improve. | |
| | | | 
quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
| The stations are allowed to request a temporary license to broadcast their digital at full power. They usually have to give up full power of their analog when they run full at digital. Many of the stations in the Lansing, MI market switched to full digital power, half analog power around July of this year.
It is fully up to the stations. | |
| | afiggatt
join:2007-07-12
Sterling, VA
| said by Vchat20 :I think the biggest gripe that has been had so far is the requirement of the broadcasters to use such low transmitting power on the digital carriers while keeping up analog service and the majority of the public have seen the lack of range on these channels as a carved-in-stone expectation of what's to come in february. This is certainly not the case, but many people seem to think it is. My question is why the FCC has not allowed these broadcasters to use full power for the digital transmission alongside analog? Most full power stations ARE putting out a digital signal that effectively matches, if not exceeds, the analog coverage area. The analog ERP (effective Radiated Power) and digital ERP are calculated differently - average vs peal power for starters. For UHF, approx 350-400 kW ERP digital is equivalent to 5000 kW analog. The FCC established 1000 kW as the maximum ERP for UHF to help the low VHF analog stations come closer to replicate their coverage area with a UHF signal. The typical digital ERP for the 316 kW analog stations will be around 20 kW for digital on the same channel.
Over 1000 full power stations are on their final digital channel and power level. They will simply turn off the analog broadcast next February. Over 600 stations will be changing their digital channel by next February, many of which will get improved digital coverage. The process of assigning interim digital channel allotments and the post-transition allotments has been a very complicated one. The had to balance off interference concerns and costs for over 1800 full power stations with 2 broadcast channels each and for 1000s of translators and low power stations. | |
| rdmiller
join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA | Snowy analog Let me get this strait. Folks who live between two markets, and are happy to get snowy analog from both, are complaining that they can't get snowy analog over digital.
I don't think snowy analog was ever on the list of digital "features". | |
| | | | | rdmiller
join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA | Re: Snowy analog or satellite. or cable. Digital receivers have a lower tolerance for weak signals than analog receivers. Some people by definition are going to be out of range. | |
| | | | | 
ARGONAUT
got ping?
join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN | The Pacifying Box Less TV (social engineering) is always better.  | |
| scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
| Get it over with already So we can start fixing the problems...
Personally - I'm fine and ready for the cutover tomorrow. I realize there are going to be people who won't be. There are people that you could give them 5 years notice and they still wouldn't be ready. You can't help them until they want help. | |
| |
quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
| If they weren't able to get it right in NC.... We are in a heap of trouble if the NC test didn't go well. There was such a concentrated effort in the area, far above what has been going on in the rest of the nation, that every person, mom, dad, grandpa, and dog should have known was was going on.
In our market (Lansing, MI), there has been limited, confusing advertising that has happened, and that's about it. In fact, Comcast has had more advertising on the OTA channels about "If you are a Comcast customer, you have nothing to worry about". The transition commericials that are played in this area have some retired baseball announcer who can't articulate the real issue. That coupled with the poor audio and video it makes it very hard to understand. People are only getting the Comcast message, of "you have nothing to worry about". | |
| | scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC | Re: If they weren't able to get it right in NC.... Actually - I thought the Wilmington test went pretty well ! Pretty much expected results.
One item they need to take away from it is that people MAY need to augment / replace their current antennas and they need to advertise that. | |
| | | | | | I pos rep
join:2008-08-22
| Nobody cares about morons....seriously! How many times must we go over this? I am sick and tired of getting warnings on a TV. If you have yet to see one you are mentally retarded. Even if you skip commercials with TIVO or something, it is all over the web. It is impossible to miss the warning unless you do not watch ANY television whatsoever. Retarded chimps have already gotten their DTV boxes. People that can't read or understand English have already gotten their boxes. WHO IS MISSING EXCEPT SERIOUSLY RETARDED PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST FOR BEING SO DUMB?
You cannot even try to argue with me that people that are old or ignorant about technology are missing their box. I have already stated that my grandfather who is old as can be, who has poor English skills, got a box before I even warned him of this. He can barely figure out how to press popcorn on his microwave to make popcorn and has his box. Nobody cares about these severe retards who have yet to take proper action. Let them figure it out later which I doubt they will since they are retarded. Just hopeless morons left. The solution is to ignore them. | |
| |
tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Nobody cares about morons....seriously! said by I pos rep : How many times must we go over this? I am sick and tired of getting warnings on a TV. WHO IS MISSING EXCEPT SERIOUSLY RETARDED PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST FOR BEING SO DUMB? I think you misunderstand the entire issue being discussed in this thread. While there is a lot of confusion about digital transition that is not what we are talking about.
Digital transmission is very different then analog. In some cases folks will get fewer digital stations then they get with analog even if they invest in a high quality outdoor antenna.
Reception of digital TV goes from being perfect to unviewable if the signal drops below a critical threshold. With analog picture becomes snowie but still viewable.
We are in a fringe area in southern NH, even after investing in high quality outdoor antenna it is likely we will be receive fewer stations then today. Once there is more experience with Digital TV stations may make adjustments to modify coverage area, but those decisions are technical, economic and regulatory.
/tom | |
| | | mythology
join:2002-10-16
Seneca, SC | Re: Nobody cares about morons....seriously! BREAKING NEWS. RIOTS BREAK OUT IN ATLANTA DUE TO MASSIVE TV OUTAGE DURING DANCING WITH THE STARS. | |
| jfoj
join:2005-05-06
Mclean, VA
| It's All About Multipath Crack me up, the "set and forget" mindset of the analog folks are in for a rude awakening.
8VSB is crap, nobody will ever have a stable TV signal again. TX power or antenna design will not resolve the multipath issue. Yea 8VSB is more power friendly for the rural flatlands of the central US, however, with digital it ain't all about the power!
The OTA stations will loose out to cable and satellite very quickly. I know a lot of folks that just threw in the towel and moved away from OTA because of HOA issues with antennas and the lack of wanting to deal with boxes and antennas by themselves as there are few knowledgeable and reliable contractors still dealing with OTA installs. But even the best installer cannot overcome multipath problems, so there you just wasted a bunch of time and money to then move to cable or satellite in the end to have a stable picture.
Too bad nobody with any real experience was ever involved with the standard the US choose.
Long live the pixel!
jfoj | |
| techygeek
join:2008-04-30
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
2 edits | no white space auction, future HD may need it & boost areas to avoid duplicate posting, please see the post I put here...
»Keep the white spaces-2160p will need poss 4x the bandwidth.
here is a sample of a 2160p TV just on the market last year..
»gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-enterta···9013.php
Grant it, its thousands now but didn't 1080p LCD HDTV cost 1000's in the mid 90's. In 10-15 years, broadcasters will likely need more bandwidth to transmit free channels in 2160p and the airwaves will have to remain clean in these frequency ranges. A reasonable amount of free HD channels & 2160p down the road could make this well worth the viewer buying a better antenna & the broadcasters investing in additional amplifiers in key spots. Maybe they can make a deal with the telco or cable companies to get their signal to a near re-transmission tower.
On the flip side, introduce use of in-between channel white spaces for wireless and I feel we will have a reception mess to which no one can figure out the fixes to. | |
| 
RR Conductor
RailRoadDude
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
4 edits |  How will this affect rural areas served by translators?
They even say on their web site
"Important - About Digital TV!
DO NOT WORRY! You will not be affected by digital TV changes right away. We will still transmit in analog.
However, you should still purchase a DTV conterter box using the DTV coupons ($40) from the government because eventually we will transmit DTV signals. If you wait until next year, the coupons may no longer be available. And note: you must buy a DTV converter that has analog pass-through in order to receive all TIA stations! It's not as hard as it sounds... read DTV on TV Translators to find out more.
It has yet to be determined how many stations we will be able to receive once the switch has been made to DTV."
»www.tiaukiah.org
After hearing the problems with distance in this NC test market, I wonder if OTA TV simply go dead here on the Febuary date, due to the digital distance limits causing the translator to no longer be able to get signals. Many here do have cable and satellite (like us, Directv), but there are still quite a few here who watch OTA, especially people like my sister who can't afford cable or satellite, what will happen to them?
--
»www.amtrak.com
»www.amtrakcalifornia.com
»www.metrolinktrains.com
»www.narprail.org
»www.freighrailworks.org
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»www.bnsf.com
»www.northcoastrailroad.org
»www.sonomamarintrain.org | |
| | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
1 edit | Re: How will this affect rural areas served by translators? said by RR Conductor :What I wonder is how will it affect areas like mine, we are served by a tranlator deleted by poster - sorry didn't read your ENTIRE message. | |
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FCC's Adelstein Wants More DTV Testing
·