 
rudnicke
Premium
join:2004-10-23
Rantoul, IL
clubs: | And more freedom disappears "We wouldn't want to sacrifice national security for the sake of privacy"
Someone should remember that line. It's all downhill from here. | |
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KevinMartin
@rcn.com
 from:
TScheisskopf 
thumbs down from:
TK Junk Mail
| Re: And more freedom disappears As an American Citizen who had his rights violated, Kevin Martin is now culpable for legal action against me. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by KevinMartin :
As an American Citizen who had his rights violated, Kevin Martin is now culpable for legal action against me.
And you know you were wiretapped how?? Were you arrested for terrorism or spying?
NO?? Then your rights weren't violated.
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John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by TK Junk Mail :NO?? Then your rights weren't violated. That is an absurd conclusion.
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
 ·Sprint Broadband D..
| So, what are your views on the recent statement by Jack Goldsmith, whose job it was to polish the administrations wiretapping turd and somehow make it palatable, in a legal sense? Seems that worthy has pretty well damned the whole program and the process and motivations behind it.
This old saw of "Do you know anyone harmed/were you harmed by " is a false argument. In a healthy democracy, where the body politic is engaged, active and aware, questions and dismay over these actions are vital. It would be far more worrisome if people were not outraged.
You sir, have much better things to do with your life then being a knee-jerk apologist, without portfolio, for this sort of stuff. Assuming you do not, in fact, hold a portfolio. Of course, that assumption has been the source of no small amount of comment and debate in these parts. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by TScheisskopf :So, what are your views on the recent statement by Jack Goldsmith, whose job it was to polish the administrations wiretapping turd and somehow make it palatable, in a legal sense? Seems that worthy has pretty well damned the whole program and the process and motivations behind it. This old saw of "Do you know anyone harmed/were you harmed by " is a false argument. In a healthy democracy, where the body politic is engaged, active and aware, questions and dismay over these actions are vital. It would be far more worrisome if people were not outraged. You sir, have much better things to do with your life then being a knee-jerk apologist, without portfolio, for this sort of stuff. Assuming you do not, in fact, hold a portfolio. Of course, that assumption has been the source of no small amount of comment and debate in these parts. Debate away. I get a small measure of amusement from those who seek to divine some hidden motives and affiliations from my opinions. It says more about the paranoia of some posters than about my motives.
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oolguy
@optonline.net
from:
packetscan
| Re: And more freedom disappears It's not about paranoia but preserving liberty. In a free society everyone has to stand up for the rights of the one person who had their's violated. Remember that the Constitution does not grant us our rights because we have them no matter what. The Constitution is just a contract between the people and the government and it has been breached by warrantless wiretapping. | |
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govspy
@myvzw.com
from:
TK Junk Mail
| Re: And more freedom disappears Whatever.....I feel better that are goverment is being proactive and watching /listening to potential threats to our country.
Freedom? You have freedom everyday. The only people bothered by this are people who have something to hide. Get over it! | |
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| | | | | | | ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA
 ·AT&T Southeast
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by govspy :
Whatever.....I feel better that are goverment is being proactive and watching /listening to potential threats to our country.
Freedom? You have freedom everyday. The only people bothered by this are people who have something to hide. Get over it!
Wow, another FauxNews droid is in our midst...Hey, what do you think of Britney's latest dilemma? Or how about the latest in the Aruba chick's disappearance? And hey, what do you think of all those nukes in Iran pointed right toward New York? We better go get 'em before they get us here, right?
We have to protect those who will be wrongly accused, and who may not have a way to challenge the accusations. | |
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superht1
join:2001-02-22
Kennesaw, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by ackman :said by govspy :
Whatever.....I feel better that are goverment is being proactive and watching /listening to potential threats to our country.
Freedom? You have freedom everyday. The only people bothered by this are people who have something to hide. Get over it!
Wow, another FauxNews droid is in our midst...Hey, what do you think of Britney's latest dilemma? Or how about the latest in the Aruba chick's disappearance? And hey, what do you think of all those nukes in Iran pointed right toward New York? We better go get 'em before they get us here, right? We have to protect those who will be wrongly accused, and who may not have a way to challenge the accusations. Our privacy needs to be respected
Invading someone is as bad as breaking and entering someone's home while they are asleep! | |
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| | | | | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| All your postings show the same underlying theme. You are scared. You are afraid of the evil muslims, and the 'terrist' who are trying to kill you. You support the administration and the megacorps, because, you (falsely) believe they will 'protect you'. Guess what, they won't. Power corrupts, that human nature. The gestapo tactics of the current administration are proof of that.
The solution, of course, is to stand by the constitution. We are GUARANTEED certain rights, and have other rights by proxy. I WANT the right to privacy. I DON'T want the police to keep track of where I go, when I go. They have no RIGHT to that information, but you are so scared, you are willing to give up 200+ years of a working system, just to feel 'safe'.
If a terrorist WANTS to kill people, they will. There IS NO SOLUTION for people who are willing to kill themselves for a cause. The BIGGEST CAUSE of human suffering is of course, the fallacy of religion. The sooner we erase religion from the human consciousness, the better off we will all be.
You hide behind your support of the current regime, but by doing so, you give up all that made this country great. It's amusing to read you defend the actions of an administration which has made the US the most hated country on the planet. It's amusing to see you support the megacorps which are outsourcing our jobs to slave labor in china and india. You don't have a clue about the human condition, and what it means to be a human being. You are a mindless drone supporting false beliefs in the hope that you will be 'safe'.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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join:2005-06-24
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by karlmarx : The BIGGEST CAUSE of human suffering is of course, the fallacy of religion. The sooner we erase religion from the human consciousness, the better off we will all be. Spoken like a True Communist...whatever happened to your beloved Constitution that you so highly tout. I believe it states we also have freedom of religion. Your rights END where MINE begin. So please take your communist crap back to China and quite trying to pollute our Country with your ideologies... | |
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| | | mdd
join:2004-09-28
Los Angeles, CA
| "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Sound familiar? It should, it's the 4th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and it supersedes ALL statutory law. It is "the supreme law of the land".
-R | |
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montana3087
Say hello to my little friend
Premium
join:2001-05-03
Santa Clara, CA
clubs:
edit:
October 7th, @04:51AM
| We are all wiretapped in some way. With this administration it's "who cares if it is for terrorism or not, everybody is guilty of something." The simple fact is that if you are an American citizen, you are guilty of something.
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You know what? I have a ball. Perhaps you'd like to bounce it? | |
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yock
Eschew the False Dichotomy
Premium
join:2000-11-21
Fairfield, OH
| said by TK Junk Mail :said by KevinMartin :
As an American Citizen who had his rights violated, Kevin Martin is now culpable for legal action against me.
And you know you were wiretapped how?? Were you arrested for terrorism or spying? NO?? Then your rights weren't violated. Well that's just it isn't it? We'll never know who was tapped and who was not. You just have to trust the government to be telling the truth and that no harm was done to anyone.
Our government was founded on the principle of least trust. Transparency, checks and balances, and accountability were all sacred to the Founding Fathers, and the current government has decided that those principles conflict with keeping us safe.
You don't see just the slightest problem with that nonsense? | |
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Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
edit:
October 7th, @07:30AM
| said by TK Junk Mail :said by KevinMartin :
As an American Citizen who had his rights violated, Kevin Martin is now culpable for legal action against me.
And you know you were wiretapped how?? Were you arrested for terrorism or spying? NO?? Then your rights weren't violated. It never ceases to amaze me how much of a shill you are. s there a reason you changed your forum Identity yet again TKJunkmail?
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»davescustompc.com | |
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| | | moschops
Premium
join:2003-12-20
Oakland, CA
| Exactly - you'll know "how?" - you wont! They will cite "national security" as a reason for you to never know. I hope they investigate you some day and give you cause to complain - because you wont be able to. In space no one can hear you scream, ditto for Guantanamo. | |
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Doci
Toothless Fairy
join:2003-02-01
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: And more freedom disappears said by tc1uscg :This means the bad guys have won. They hat our freedom, our western way of life. The sooner you get that out of your head the better you will be. They don't hate your freedom nor your western way of life. What they despise is you meddling in their affairs. Please, don't cry foul should some Iraqis decide to avenge their country for what you have done to them. | |
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| | | gdj50
join:2001-02-01
Spokane, WA
| Re: And more freedom disappears According to 1/3 of my family in Saudi it is our western life style that they hate. They believe that our ways are contrary to Gods wishes and that we as a nation should renounce the path we are on and if we do not we should be destroyed. Now if I was to go there and preach my beliefs,they would feel bad about me be killed, but they would not stop them from killing me. The divide between us and Arab world is not going to be resolved in our life time and if you do not want to get on board with them you better be prepared to meddle. | |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
edit:
October 7th, @06:51AM
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Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
edit:
October 7th, @07:39AM
| said by Doci :said by tc1uscg :This means the bad guys have won. They hat our freedom, our western way of life. The sooner you get that out of your head the better you will be. They don't hate your freedom nor your western way of life. What they despise is you meddling in their affairs. Please, don't cry foul should some Iraqis decide to avenge their country for what you have done to them. That is the stupidest thing I read all week..of course they hate our way of life..they hate EVERYTHING about us..Remember what they found in the wreckage of the "Brothers Huessin"s" hideout? ERVERTHING out lawed by the taliban..they are hippoctrits they think their way of life is the only way and death to those who disagree we should arm ourselves here in the US and meet any any suspicious activity with a 9 mil tunnel through the skull
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Yogibear227
@spcsdns.net
thumbs down from:
TK Junk Mail
| They were ALL appointed to their positions by a sitting Republican President.
More BUSHit.. Rumsfeld, Gonzales,Wolfowitz , how many dummies have to go before you recognize the pattern of tripe they have been serving? | |
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richdelb
2008 Calder Cup CHAMPS
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Algonquin, IL
| Indictment While the Telcos may be granted immunity, could this some day lead to Mr. Martin's indictment? IF he has knowledge that the Telcos co-operated with the government and violated the constitution, could his refusal to move forward be considered collaboration? If he has knowledge that the government violated the law isn't his duty to move forward?
(Yea, I know my fantasy world is very nice indeed.....) | |
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| lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL | Re: Indictment Following that same thought process, shouldn't the NSA employees, the CIA employees, the foreign intelligence service employees that shared this information also be indicted and the captured bad guys be released? | |
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richdelb
2008 Calder Cup CHAMPS
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Algonquin, IL
| Re: Indictment said by lesopp :Following that same thought process, shouldn't the NSA employees, the CIA employees, the foreign intelligence service employees that shared this information also be indicted and the captured bad guys be released? Are you implying that Chairman Martin is a member of the intelligence community? | |
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| | | ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| Re: Indictment said by richdelb :said by lesopp :Following that same thought process, shouldn't the NSA employees, the CIA employees, the foreign intelligence service employees that shared this information also be indicted and the captured bad guys be released? Are you implying that Chairman Martin is a member of the intelligence community? Chairman Martin has no association with intelligence of any kind whatsoever... | |
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| | | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL | No. | |
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No to ESPN
@sbcglobal.net | Time for Honest Federal Grand Jury Actually a run away Federal grand jury could create the right atmosphere for cleaning up this mess. | |
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stufried
Premium
join:2003-10-13
·Verizon BroadbandA..
| I Hope the Next Administration Hangs These Guys My first cousin by marriage was born in the Manzinar detention center. His family was a loyal Japanese-American family which was detained there simply because the Western Military Commander for California had decided that these individuals posed a threat. The Government clammed up and claimed national secrecy for the justification of the internment program. That was the 1940s and Pearl Harbor had just been bombed. Pearl Harbor was my parents "9-11."
Fast forward to the 1980s when the stuff got disclassified and we discovered that they didn't have anything. They violated civil rights, detained innocent people, and were operating with no facts tying these individuals to the Empire of Japan other than their race.
There were a number of court decisions slamming the war time precedent, the players that were still alive duly apologized, but apparently no lesson was learned.
In routine criminal prosecutions, I'm hearing the prosecutors claim national security and it is like no one will review the claims.
Someone once said that each generation has to relearn the mistakes of the past. This seems to be a classic example. My concern is that if the abuses of this administration are not addressed soon, then the folks like ATT, etc. will take the message that it is better to illegally cooperate now and send an apology note (sans check) 50 years from now. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: I Hope the Next Administration Hangs These Guys So has a whole group of innocent US citizens who share a common race been interred illegally?
We should free them immediately.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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disc
join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC
| Congress seems ready to interogate w/o FCC anyway said by From the link :
The Energy and Commerce Committee also asked AT&T, Verizon Communications and Qwest Communications International on Tuesday to describe how U.S. government agencies sought to obtain information about customer telephone and Internet use.
That still seems kind of toothless. This article made Congress sound more threatening, House committee calls for further investigation into telecom wiretapping, but I'm guessing that while Congress is seeking culpability on the part of the US government agencies, it's not really seeking culpability on the part of the Telcos. | |
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MarkyD
Premium
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:
·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T FTTP
·AT&T DSL Service
| The constitution will hang by a thread... we're getting so close to that. I hope the American people will pull their heads out and become informed on the candidates for the next election. I hope people will vote in the primaries and the actual election. Unfortunately, the people who complain the most are often the same people who won't vote. There are exceptions to the rule (myself included...)
I hate the direction this country is headed. State law is all but null and void. Our constitution is being torn to shreds because "times are changing." Bull. The fundamentals that used to write the constitution are still relevant today. This administration and the mockery they have made of our civil rights makes me sick to my stomach, literally.
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MarkyD, Paper Tiger
MCSA 2K3, SCNP, MCDST, MCITP, ACHDS, ACDT, ACPT, ACTC, A+, Network+ Security+, Server+, Certified Ethical Hacker | |
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See 8 replies to this post |
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MSauk
MSauk
Premium
join:2002-01-17
Sandy, UT | A tool Kevin Martin is a tool, plain and simple | |
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RichNice
join:2003-01-09
Columbia, MD | Oh really Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.
Benjamin Franklin | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Oh really said by RichNice :Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security. Benjamin Franklin "The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."
Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bill_o···mulation
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| | mdd
join:2004-09-28
Los Angeles, CA
| Re: Oh really Sorry, I must have missed the part in the Bill of Rights that says that it was optional. Unless you are arguing that the Constitution no longer is valid, it must be followed. Oh, and BTW, Jackson wrote that in a DISSENTING opinion, which means the majority of the court at the time did not side with him.
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superht1
join:2001-02-22
Kennesaw, GA | Re: national security It's paranoid security | |
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jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Lakewood, OH
clubs: | not suprising considering the auction of the whitespace coming up and how they are in bed with the telco's | |
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mdd
join:2004-09-28
Los Angeles, CA | One more thing The real criminals here are not the telcos, it is the agents in the government who COMPELLED them to comply with an illegal wiretapping program. Save most of your indignation for them.
-R | |
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MacWin
join:2003-06-26
Imperial, MO
| Re: One more thing said by mdd :The real criminals here are not the telcos, it is the agents in the government who COMPELLED them to comply with an illegal wiretapping program. Save most of your indignation for them. -R I'm sure that AT&T had to have their arm twisted on this one. They used this to get their BellSouth meger approved on the quick. | |
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| ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| said by mdd :The real criminals here are not the telcos, it is the agents in the government who COMPELLED them to comply with an illegal wiretapping program. Save most of your indignation for them. -R Horseshit! The Telcos had a fiduciary duty to protect their customers from the illegal, unwarranted requests and actions of the White House. It is clear that one cannot be lawfully compelled to break the law. And further, in the instance of illegal wiretapping and wholesale eavesdropping on voice telecommunications, internet traffic/e-mail and standard mail, the administration operated well beyond the constraints of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the authority granted the Executive thereby. In fact, they operated outside the bounds of all law in the United States of America. The Telcos, and all others, who cooperated with the megalomaniacal dementia manifested in the White House are legally liable for their actions. This point was decided at Nurhenburg. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | riiiight. so now deflect the blame away from telcos and to some mysterious person that forced them to spit on the constitution? they had a choice. they made the wrong choice. they should be sued into non-existance. | |
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ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17 | ... Edward R. Murrow: We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. Is it really that hard to get a warrant? I want a paper trail at least | |
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| lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
edit:
October 6th, @07:53PM
| Re: ... How about we accommodate all those that seem to have forgotten the lessons of 9/11 by changing the constitution to read "Liberty, Life and the Pursuit of Happiness" | |
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vv1r3d
join:2005-12-05
Columbia, MO | Definition of the word terrorism- TO ME A blown out of proportion whim of the government to try to scare Americans into "behaving".... Terrorists just simply don't exist, because if they did our government would be classified as the largest terrorist group!
--Just my two cents-- | |
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kerriskandie
join:2001-10-09
Coram, NY
·Optimum Online
| Re: Definition of the word terrorism- TO ME We had (IRA) Terrorists operating (bombing innocent women/children) for over 20 years in the UK, yet to my knowledge didn't give up as many rights as you guys are now, because of the (scaremongering) threat of Terrorism, ( we are giving them up now, due to European Common market, but that's another story!)
I think this IS teh " thin end of the wedge" over here........ | |
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Diaboyos
join:2007-08-21
·Comcast
·RoadRunner Cable
| Not Surprising So the telcos assisted the government in breaking the law with warrantless wiretapping. Then they stood to be sued for breaking the law so they pleaded with the government for help. The government said "Don't be afraid we are the law." And immunity was granted upon them.
Sounds like a bedtime story in some warped version of the future. Oh wait, it's already here. The people breaking the law are the same people that grant immunity for the laws they break. Absolutely ludicrous.
I wonder how many pockets fattened before immunity was granted? This is sickening. Way to do your job Mr. Martin. You should be replaced immediately by someone not bought off and someone who actually has a pair. | |
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arnoldc
Premium
join:2002-08-07
Kodak, TN
| fcc I believe that all officials who work for the government for the benefit of it's citizens sign an oath to the "Constitution" not the current administration (i.e. who administers the law and regulations of the U.S.) Our current three branches of government are all failing to abide by their oath of office. The current FCC Chairman cannot be faulted for caving in to "National Security/State Secrets" and mega monopolies, does this not sound like the former USSR. However, I do fault him for not doing his job and letting the special interest (AT&T, Verizon) and the administration override the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, US laws, and FCC regulations. | |
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KraziJoe
join:2006-09-08
Alexandria, VA
·Comcast
edit:
October 7th, @07:53PM
| ! I find it funny how many conservatives love the wire tapping and letting it infringe on the 4th amendment and yet want to crucify the Government every time there is talk of Gun Control...
Gun Control is proactive. It Bans the guns so potential killers cannot kill people with guns.
That sounds a lot like, "I feel better that are goverment is being proactive and watching /listening to potential threats to our country." | |
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FCC Refuses to Investigate Telcos in Wiretapping Issue
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