 gpancner
join:2001-09-27
Nine Mile Falls, WA | Freedom & Security Those who trade freedom for security will get neither.
Who was the guy who said this years ago? | |
|  | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Freedom & Security Benjamin Franklin
The quote reads like this.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs:
| Re: Freedom & Security In other news:
»sonic.net/augie/wpmu/dane/index.php
George Bush spoke at the annual Boy Scouts of American Jamboree, and announced the creation of the official “Republican Youth” - a new sub-branch of the army. Youth will be taught military skills and the conservative values of the Republican Party. As the war in Iraq progresses, and as freedom of movement, speech and thought here in the US is curtailed, the duties of the Republican Youth are expected to expand.
...
Wow, isn't that interesting?
-Dane | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
 ·Speakeasy
| Re: Freedom & Security said by DaneJasper  :Wow, isn't that interesting? Not really, and how is that link "news"?
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
1 edit | Re: Freedom & Security said by nixen :said by DaneJasper :Wow, isn't that interesting? Not really, and how is that link "news"? -tom How is that News? It's absolutely GASP, a horror of horrors for the burnt out liberal bastion left over from the Clinton regime to discover the Boy Scouts have more upright moral values than the left put together.
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Honk if you've never seen an uzi fired from a car window | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Freedom & Security said by guitarzan :How is that News? It's absolutely GASP, a horror of horrors for the burnt out liberal bastion left over from the Clinton regime to discover the Boy Scouts have more upright moral values than the left put together. Ok, I guess I should frame my prior question: how, in the literal sense, is a link to someone's agenda-laden blog "news".
As to the Boy Scouts' non-progressive social agenda, that's hardly news, either.
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| Re: Freedom & Security said by nixen :said by guitarzan :How is that News? It's absolutely GASP, a horror of horrors for the burnt out liberal bastion left over from the Clinton regime to discover the Boy Scouts have more upright moral values than the left put together. Ok, I guess I should frame my prior question: how, in the literal sense, is a link to someone's agenda-laden blog "news". As to the Boy Scouts' non-progressive social agenda, that's hardly news, either. -tom Someone's personal blog, I agree that's not news, that blog could be so far out in left field, it may not even resemble reality even faintly.
Thank God the boy scouts are not tree hugging liberals, tainted by socialistic nit wittery.
Guitarzan
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Honk if you've never seen an uzi fired from a car window | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
1 edit | said by DaneJasper :Youth will be taught military skills and the conservative values of the Republican Party. As the war in Iraq progresses, and as freedom of movement, speech and thought here in the US is curtailed, the duties of the Republican Youth are expected to expand. ... Wow, isn't that interesting? Dane This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever read from the kook left. The creation of what you describe as a Hitler Youth style Republican Youth organization, apparently you are reading the kook left wing blogs, you must be one of them to believe this crap. Here is the text of President Bush's speech to the Boy Scouts of America where in this speech does he mention the formation of a Republican Youth such as you describe above.
President Bush in a Video Speech to the Boy Scout Jamboree 30 July 2005
THE PRESIDENT: Hello, Boy Scouts, and thanks for this opportunity to send a word of greeting to your National Jamboree. Let me also thank General Colby Broadwater and the fine men and women of Fort A.P. Hill for hosting this event.
I'm so sorry the weather didn't allow me to join you in person, but I wanted to say a few words to the Scouts and Scoutmasters who have come to this Jamboree from all across the country.
You know, next month I'll be going to my ranch in Crawford, where I'll work and take a little time off. I think it is so important for a President to spend some time away from Washington, in the heartland of America. And whenever I go home to the heartland, I am reminded of the values that build strong families, strong communities and strong character, the values that make our people unique.
It is those values that are such an important part of Boy Scouts. And I want to thank the adults here who have shown good values, who have taken the responsibility upon yourself to build the wisdom and character of our young people. And the Scoutmasters of America accept this responsibility every day. I want to thank all the Scoutmasters who set a good example and help Scouts learn the values that give direction to their lives.
When you join a Scout troop and put on the Boy Scout uniform, you, too, make a statement. Like every uniform, yours is a symbol of commitment. It is a sign to all that you believe in high standards, and that you are trying to live up to them every single day. As you do that, you bring credit to the Scout uniform and credit to your country. And I want you to know your country is proud of you.
Many of you have been to Washington this past week, maybe for the first time. You know, it's interesting, one of my predecessors, President Gerald Ford, saw Washington for the first time a few years after he became an Eagle Scout. Back then, in the '30s, Scouts helped collect food and clothing for people suffering from the Great Depression.
In our own time, you all have taken the lead in the fight against drug abuse. In Texas, Boy Scouts were among the first to take up a reading challenge that I set. All across America, Boy Scouts are doing good turns daily. And every time you do a good turn, this becomes a better country. There are needs in every community, and those needs can be met one heart, one soul at a time.
You can make a difference for America by the life you lead and the lives you serve. Times and challenges change, yet the values of Scouting will never change. Scouts of any era would recognize every word that you live by today, because those words have always defined Scouting. The goodness of a person and of the society he or she lives in often comes down to very simple things, and words found in the Scout Law. Every society depends on trust and loyalty, on courtesy and kindness, on bravery and reverence. These are the values of Scouting and these are the values of America.
What you have learned in Scouting will see you through life. In good times and difficult ones, the Scout Motto will always help you: "Be prepared." And whatever you do, the Scout Oath will always guide you: On your honor, do your best.
I thank every Scout and Scoutmaster for being a part of this great organization, and for being a part of this successful Jamboree. May God bless you all, and may God bless the United States of America.
END
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Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you.
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Freedom & Security It's a flat out lie--as I suppose we are supposed to guess from the name of the "media outlet" on the linked page--"Bullpress". The URL hints that it's Dane's own website.
It's a malicious effort to get some people to fear and hate GWB even more than they do. Of course, when you are the liberal left, it's OK to do stuff like this because the conservative folks in the US are just despicable, right?
Dane, we deserve an apology here....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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JoeOnSunset
Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Ormond Beach, FL
| Hey crazy reactionists! Though the link to the blog was not useful or relevant, you're making fools out of yourselfs decrying its falsehood. The whole "Republican Youth" deal on the blog is a JOKE. I mean, you actually quote the whole speech to prove he never mentioned the "youth army." Are you kidding me? That's like screaming and yelling because Tiny Fey on Weekend Update quoted Gov. Arnold as saying he's excited about the mudslides and earthquarks because he likes action. No, the Governor never said that either, smart guys. That's why it's a joke.
By the way, the rest of the blog entry read: "Also announced, the firearms merit badge is now mandatory, and must be completed immediately after the knife and axe handling badge. New merit badges were also announced. These include a special badge for spying on one’s parents, and one for marching with stern looks on their young faces."
Someone post a press-release from the Boy Scouts saying there isn't going to be a special "spying badge". Then cry about how the blogger is making things up and is a left wing kook! Go on, it'll be fun to watch. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| Re: Freedom & Security The problem is there are left wing kooks that believe this kind of stuff. So we never know if these people are serious or not. With Harry "has been" Belafonte comparing The Bush with NAZI Germany, and calling all of the African Americans in his administration as "Black Tyrants", Senator "Pickled liver" Kennedy, comparing our Military as with to Saddam Hassin what are we supposed to think.
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Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you. | |
| | | SaBo7Ge
join:2003-03-12
US | Close... The actual quote reads,
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: Freedom & Security ...and I wonder which liberties Franklin deemed "essential"?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| said by SaBo7Ge :Close... The actual quote reads, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin You never know since we were not there. But the sentiment is the same.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | 
agoodideaforwiretaps
| That's a VERY good idea, you'd think people who DIDN"T want anyone listening to them, would use VOIP for illicit purposes when they could encrypt voice via broadband already... Hmmm, these guys missed the common sense train, long ago.  | |
| | t3freak
join:2004-04-11
New Port Richey, FL | Now I can sleep peacefully at night.:( | |
| 
Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
| Are we on a roll? It seems to me the FCC has been on a roll of mandating new costs for VoIP and ISPs (particularly smaller ISPs) while only increasing telco profits. (DSL deregulation, 911 compliance that hits only VoIPs, now this)
Looks like that lobby money is paying off.
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AMD A64 3200+/ MSI K8N Neo Platinum/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ PNY 6800GT/Gainward 5200PCI/ Antec 550 True Control/Custom water cooler | |
| | | GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| Wouldn't this be called packet-tap? Unless they plan to subject the new rules to continued tapping into the copper wiring of said POTS and coax lines, I see this as a software implementation opportunity that could easily be hacked for illegal tapping--especially is its Cisco based.  | |
| | gnexus
join:2005-06-24
1 edit | Re: Wouldn't this be called packet-tap? It's called packet scanning and/or interception and is already being done by hackers (and likely the DOJ). VoIP is not normally encrypted. It can easily be overheard. Almost as easily (or even easier. . .) than using an old cordless phone. Real criminals, however, will be smart enough to use encryption. . .unless they are stupid criminals.
The ruling legitimizes the activity for the DOJ and also requires router manufacturers to put backdoors in routers (See my post about VoIP SoHo routers). | |
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tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
·Comcast
| Re: FCC ruling expected and logical said by GOLFnSUN :Law enforcement, with a court order, has always had the right to tap telecommunications conversations. More worrisome, is that under the Patriot act, 'court order' no longer requires a judge, or court oversight.
everyone agrees (or should IMHO) that wiretaps are nessesary law enforcement tools, but even the best agency will eventually abuse the power without supervision. | |
| |
Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
| said by GOLFnSUN :Law enforcement, with a court order, has always had the right to tap telecommunications conversations. The change in technology doesn't change that. Whether that communications is POTS, VOIP, emails, chat sessions, etc. Law enforcement, with federal assistance(FCC) is just making sure that communications providers maintain the ability to follow those court orders. And while I agree with what you've said, I don't think this is to make sure providers comply, it's to force private industry to spend more money to make it EASIER to monitor under court order. Nothing in our current technology would prevent the FBI from planting a keystroke logger on my PC, a bug in my phone itself, etc. This just allows them to take the easy road and put the tap at the ISP rather than in my home. (which would be subject to greater scrutiny on the warrant to enter)
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AMD A64 3200+/ MSI K8N Neo Platinum/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ PNY 6800GT/Gainward 5200PCI/ Antec 550 True Control/Custom water cooler | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| CALEA + PATRIOT ACT = TYRANNY For those who aren't familiar with CALEA, it was forced out to the manufacturers of telecom equipment back in 1990, supposedly to allow the government to 'track organized crime'. Basically it does several things to the equipment, to allow taps, and more importantly, prevent a tap detection from working (i.e. on cell towers, the signal is 'overpowered' so when a tap is placed, normal detection methods (which measure levels) don't detect it. CALEA also requires that equipment can be configured to monitor and record any phone calls made to/from a phone number, etc. Basically, those people listening on phone calls you see in the movies have been completely automated.
This new act is just an expansion, as CALEA did not allow them to tap your cable modem, which was driving them nuts. Of course, 'accommodating' a data connection is a fundamentally different process than accommodating a POTS line tap. The average end user today has the ability to nullify the contents of the conversation (via encryption) right from their desktop. My prediction, terrifying as it is, is that crypto will be outlawed for the home user, in the interest of 'preventing terrorism'.
My question is.. who watches the watchers? Why are we giving up 200+ years of freedom from search and seizure and allowing a police state to form? Why are we giving the government unprecedented powers to monitor us? Are we so terrified of terrorism that we will give up all those things that made this country what it is? If so, the terrorist have already won. We have lost our freedoms, which is what they wanted in the first place.
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Grand Poobah | |
| | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: CALEA + PATRIOT ACT = TYRANNY I would guess that this will be nothing more than a "user-friendly" glorified packet sniffer. I don't see this as a big deal and honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner. A court order will still be required. And if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
As far as outlawing crypto...I seriously doubt that happens. No more 128 bit encryption for my webpage? Not likely. Not that it really matters anyway. Haven't you heard the that there's no encryption out there that the NSA hasn't already broken? | |
| | | gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL
| Re: CALEA + PATRIOT ACT = TYRANNY said by openbox9 :...if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.... Maybe you should read the book "The Hacker Crackdown" by Bruce Sterling. He made a copy of his book available online at
»www.chriswaltrip.com/sterling/hackcrck.html
This book is a non-fiction book that investigated the collateral damage caused by the hacker crackdown that followed after AT&T had a meltdown of their long-distance network (which turned out to be a bug in their code, not due to hackers). Sure, many of the hackers out there got what they deserved, but in addition, other innocent people's lives were ruined due to the reckless actions of our government. Oddly enough, during all the evidence gathering, no AT&T server was ever seized, yet most of the activity (and records) took place on AT&T servers.
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$100 placed at 7 percent interest compounded quarterlyfor 200 years will increase to more than $100,000,000 --by which time it will be worth nothing.- Lazarus Long | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| said by G_Poobah :My question is.. who watches the watchers? Why are we giving up 200+ years of freedom from search and seizure and allowing a police state to form? Why are we giving the government unprecedented powers to monitor us? Are we so terrified of terrorism that we will give up all those things that made this country what it is? If so, the terrorist have already won. We have lost our freedoms, which is what they wanted in the first place. Amen! Couldn't have said it better. | |
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zoom314
Superman
Premium
join:2001-04-30
Yermo, CA
| Re: CALEA + PATRIOT ACT = TYRANNY said by pokesph :said by G_Poobah :My question is.. who watches the watchers? Why are we giving up 200+ years of freedom from search and seizure and allowing a police state to form? Why are we giving the government unprecedented powers to monitor us? Are we so terrified of terrorism that we will give up all those things that made this country what it is? If so, the terrorist have already won. We have lost our freedoms, which is what they wanted in the first place. AMEN!! I hear ya there, we have (slowly, over many years) given up or have had taken many of our personal rights that this country's forefathers fought and died for. We, as a society tend to let the little things go with the excuse of "oh this will help the police do this, or that will allow the government to do that' when in fact all it's doing (over time and some master government plan) is taking our right to privacy and freedom from unwarranted search and seizure, Et al. Question is: Have You done anything to warrant being investigated? Or more importantly to be worth someones time? If not I'd carry on with Your life, I do, The Patriot Act exists, Big Deal, It isn't Judge, Jury and Executioner in this country and It will never be (Unless You're Paranoid;)) and for some to call the President and Congress a Tyrant is loopy in the Extreme as both are doing their Constitutional duties, A President signs Bills into Law or can Veto them as the President so wishes. Congress can vote to over ride a Veto with a vote of 66% or better If It wishes or It can do nothing.
A tyrant (from Greek τυραννος tyrannos) is a usurper of rightful power, possessing absolute power and ruling by tyranny.
In the original Greek meaning "tyrant" carried no ethical censure; a tyrant was anyone who overturned the established government of a city-state, usually through the use of popular support, to establish himself as dictator, or the heir of such a person. Cypselus was the first tyrant of Corinth in the 7th century BC, and managed to bequeath his position to his son, Periander. Succession was seldom untroubled among the tyrants. In Athens, the title was first given to Pisistratus of Athens in 560 BC, followed by his sons, and with the subsequent growth of Athenian democracy, the title "Tyrant" took on its familiar censurious connotations. The Thirty Tyrants installed at defeated Athens in 404 BC by the Spartans were not tyrants in the usual sense.
The heyday of the tyrants was the early 6th century BC, when Cleisthenes ruled Sicyon in the Peloponnesus, and Polycrates ruled Samos. During this time, many governments in the Aegean world were overthrown. It was during this time that Persia first made inroads into Greece, as many tyrants sought Persian help against forces seeking to remove them.
Greek tyranny was in the main an outgrowth of the struggle of the popular classes against the aristocracy or priest-kings whose right to rule was sanctioned by archaic traditions and mythology. Tyrants were generally installed by popular coups, and were often popular rulers, at least in the early part of their reigns. For instance, Pisistratus was remembered for an episode (related by Aristotle but possibly fictional) in which he exempted a farmer from taxation because of the particular barrenness of his plot. Pisistratus' sons Hippias and Hipparchus, on the other hand, were overthrown, and Hipparchus was assassinated.
The tyrants of Sicily were the products of similar causes, but tyranny was prolonged by the threat of Carthaginian attack, which facilitated the rise of military leaders with the people united behind them. Such Sicilian tyrants as Gelon, Hiero I, Hiero II, Dionysius the Elder, and Dionysius the Younger maintained lavish courts and were patrons of culture.
Later ancient Greeks, as well as the Roman Republicans, were generally quite wary of anyone seeking to implement a popular coup. The struggle of one such Roman, Marcus Junius Brutus, is portrayed by Shakespeare in his play Julius Caesar.
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Firefox forever!
»zoom314.blogspot.com/
»mysite.verizon.net/zoom314/ | |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| pure coincidence, but still interesting said by zoom314 :...a tyrant was anyone who overturned the established government of a city-state, usually through the use of popular support, to establish himself as dictator, or the heir of such a person. Cypselus was the first tyrant of Corinth in the 7th century BC, and managed to bequeath his position to his son, Periander. #41 - George Herbert Walker Bush, 1989-1993
#42 - William Jefferson Clinton, 1993-2001
#43 - George Walker Bush, 2001-
(Then again, you could say that John and John Q. Adams were tyrants too. Jenna for prez in 2020? )
Tyrants were generally installed by popular coups, and were often popular rulers, at least in the early part of their reigns.
"A recent Field Poll put Schwarzenegger's job approval rating at a lofty 56 percent, and he took the political magic that got him to Sacramento and put it to use in the referendum campaign."(March 2004)
"Only 34 percent of adult Californians approve of the job Schwarzenegger is doing as governor, compared with 51 percent who disapprove, according to a survey by the Public Policy Institute of California."(June 2004)
The tyrants of Sicily were the products of similar causes, but tyranny was prolonged by the threat of Carthaginian attack, which facilitated the rise of military leaders with the people united behind them. "President-elect George W. Bush today named former U.S. Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell as the nation's next secretary of state, making Powell the first person to formally accept a Cabinet post in the Bush administration."(Dec. 2000)
Vis-a-vis the War on Terror, of course.
As Arsenio would say..."things that make you go 'hmmmmm.'"
You might want to take a few of these upon reading the above post. 
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Copyright infringement is illegal. Murder is illegal. Therefore, file sharing is murder. | |
|
Usama Bin Laden
@mindspring.com | phone taps when VOIP is illegal only good muslins will have VOIP. | |
| | gnexus
join:2005-06-24
| Re: phone taps said by Usama Bin Laden:
when VOIP is illegal only good muslins will have VOIP.
Ok, you unregistered terrorist shirt 
Go back to religious school and learn some manners and how to spell!
One entry found for muslin.
Main Entry: mus·lin
Pronunciation: 'm&z-l&n
Function: noun
Etymology: French mousseline, from Italian mussolina, from Arabic mawsilIy of Mosul, from al-Mawsil Mosul, Iraq
definition: a plain-woven sheer to coarse cotton fabric
. . . at least we know this particular terrorist won't be able to use encryption
Thank God the FCC and the DOJ are protecting us so well 
Boy the site sure is slow in responding for this post. . .I wonder if they are routing it through the FBI? | |
| 
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA | Oh well... So I guess the dreaded 'terrorists' will have to use some other means to communicate.
BTW I seriously doubt they would ever use Vonage anyway because if they did India would have been their #1 target by now... | |
| 
JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | FCC "promotes" encryption Their little "order" will just give rise to more encryption used in such communications. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
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Mtav80
Premium
join:2002-12-28
Loveland, CO
| Re: Two types of politicians.... US Government now available to the highest bidder. Please contact your local lobbyist headquarters to have laws made how you see fit...
That is just a generalisation not really about wiretaps. I am all for wiretaps on individuals that are breaking the law. I just don't like the way the US Government has went about making such laws.
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Those who have not asked the question are not ready to accept the answer. | |
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FTCXtreme
join:2005-03-14
New Braintree, MA |  Can't they already wiretap VoIP?
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| | | | gnexus
join:2005-06-24
1 edit | said by FTCXtreme :I already know VoIP can be wiretapped You don't need to "wiretap" VoIP. Unless the RTP stream is encrypted anyone can listen in!
VoIP currently has no security. You might as well use a CB. . .
If the stream IS encrypted, which is what any major criminal or terrorist would do, "wiretapping" is useless anyway. Even with a supercomputer by the time the info was decrypted it would be usless since the statute of limitations would have run out. Unless, of course, a encryption algorithm with a DOJ backdoor is used. Again, any major criminal or terrorist would be aware of that and use a secure algorithm.
The situation will be similar to speeders on the freeway. It is only unsuspecting consumers and fools who will have problems with the enforcement.
edit: spelling | |
|
zoom314
Superman
Premium
join:2001-04-30
Yermo, CA
| the Patriot Act Well now that the Patriot Act is in place, The FBI I think can go after Organized Crime, Terrorists and other such types like Gang Members/Urban Terrorists. Me I don't have anything to hide from the US Government, So I don't fear It. Hopefully the parts of It that need to be made permanent are soon made permanent.
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Firefox forever!
»zoom314.blogspot.com/
»mysite.verizon.net/zoom314/ | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
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FCC Orders Wiretap Compliance
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FCC ruling expected and logical
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Two types of politicians....
