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story category FCC Looks Down Under For Broadband Inspiration
Hints of possible national fiber build?
08:54AM Thursday Oct 29 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: fcc · coverage · world
According to Australia's Computer World, the FCC's Susan Crawford has been meeting with Australia's phone industry lobbyists to closer examine that country's plan to build a national fiber network. Back in April, Australia announced plans to build a A$43 billion ($31 billion) network under the banner of a new private/public company -- with the government selling their stake after five years. Such a plan would obviously be considerably more expensive here in the States, and would face relentless opposition from the biggest carriers. Hopefully the FCC won't be following Australia's expensive and likely futile effort to clean the Internet of all its naughty bits. The FCC's broadband plan is scheduled to drop in 111 days.

Related:
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  3. Tuesday Morning Links
  4. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  5. Will Canada Pass Network Neutrality Rules Too?
  6. FCC: We're Halfway Done With National Broadband Plan
  7. 'Data Driven' FCC Still Using Ancient Data?
  8. Spain Declares Broadband A Legal Right
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Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

Australia has censors too

I think that the FCC should not be looking at Australia because they have that famous internet censor that blocks even legitimate sites too.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: Australia has censors too

I am glad they are at least looking at how others are/have done. As far as the censorship thing, do not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Eat Me

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Re: Australia has censors too

said by Lazlow See Profile :

I am glad they are at least looking at how others are/have done. As far as the censorship thing, do not throw out the baby with the bath water.
With the entertainment industry and overzealous "for the children" crowd, I really don't want them getting any ideas.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: Australia has censors too

If you mean ideas about censorship, they already have them. Just look at what New York did with newservers, which essentially spread nation wide.

If you mean in general, I strongly disagree. We need all the ideas we can get.

Eat Me

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Re: Australia has censors too

said by Lazlow See Profile :

If you mean ideas about censorship, they already have them. Just look at what New York did with newservers, which essentially spread nation wide.

If you mean in general, I strongly disagree. We need all the ideas we can get.
Actually we need to innovate and give the world ideas, not the other way around.

It's a sad state of affairs when the US has to look to the world for innovation. They're supposed to look to us.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: Australia has censors too

We have been out of the innovation business for a while. Between other countries doing it and us having to import the talent to do things, we really have not done much in the last decade(more?).

KrK
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They should go talk to South Korea.

Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
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join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL

Might as well consult with China..

Australia and their overzealous firewall - we might as well just consult with China on their broadband plan and setup.
Selenia

join:2006-09-22
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Re: Might as well consult with China..

said by Rob See Profile :

Australia and their overzealous firewall - we might as well just consult with China on their broadband plan and setup.
Agreed-and that is not even including the fact that Australia has some of the world's slowest speeds(some areas can only get around 1 mbit with 128kbit) up. They also cap to death, just like Canada and soon the US. Consulting Australia about broadband is like consulting my granny about Linux
PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD
Not to mention their ridiculous usage caps and allowances as well as shaping for extortionist cost.

Are we really sure AUS is the best place to consult for internet? Think you'd do better looking at Japan.
iansltx

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Re: Might as well consult with China..

Australia is more rural than maybe even the US, so it's a better comparison for what might work and what doesn't on broadband deployment than Japan. Granted, plenty of large US cities are sitting under the thumb of a cable-telco duopoly (neither of which offer fiber) but if you compare us to Japan you're comparing the US to something with a population density that's crazy in comparison, plus a government that has poured heavy subsidies into their equivalent of AT&T.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
Lets look at all the other countries (including China) and see what works/fails. Then use the good for our system. Japan and Korea (as well as many others) would be a great place to start.

caffeinator
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Re: Might as well consult with China..

Pretty unrelated as you could fit most of the EU and Japan/Korea in the boundaries of the USA and still have room left.

Plus, our geography and population density is immensely different on a national scale.
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PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
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Re: Might as well consult with China..

Ah, the classic "Population Density" argument.
iansltx

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Re: Might as well consult with China..

Fiber costs money per foot. A fair amount of money, actually. So if fiber must be laid it costs more money to far-out subscribers than to those closer in. So large cities present economies of scale and less infrastruture costs per subscriber than rural areas. That's why City Telecom (?) in Hong Kong has wired their areas so heavily; their costs per subscriber are about $200 due to short cable lengths needed as a result of high population density.
bombadill
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Hey PapMidnight - well y'know there is a point there about population density vis-a-vis distance.

Sydney to Perth (cross continent) is the same as London England to Cairo in Egypt.

In Aus. 30-50 miles along the eastern seaboard between towns of 5000-10000 is about right.

Go west 150 miles and 80-100 miles between small country towns with 1200-3000 population is the norm on the Western side of the Great Dividing Range.

Go further inland by 150-200 miles and zilch. 150-200 miles bewteen any population aggregation at all with farm houses 20-40 miles apart.

I think it's called "sparse" settlement.

Still I can get 1500 down, 30 GB quota and absolutely ROCK solid connection 24/7 in my town of 1200 with a creaky old copper network for about $40 US a month. So I'm capped but it's a good deal.

caffeinator
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Re: Might as well consult with China..

I think AU has done pretty well in the last decade.

In late '98, early '99, I knew a woman from Melbourne who payed like $50/month for severely capped and congested DIALUP where some days she couldn't even stay connected at all.

Here, we had cable broadband for just a bit more at that time.

I now know many people all around AU who have great connections and they don't seem to mind the price.

I won't get into talking about Telstra though...that's a minefield.
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Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
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caffeinator

It is related becuase the capacity limits in the US are not an backbone issue (there is plenty of that) it is a last mile issue. Last mile issues are pretty much the same in any country in the world. So how far it is from LA to NY is pretty much irrelevant. What is relevant is how to get the connection between peoples homes and the backbone.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Regardless...

One nationwide fiber optic network connecting every business and home is EXACTLY how it should be.

We should not be limited to choice because of the extreme barriers of entry, nor should we expect every provide to have to dig up our yards, roads, or neighbors yards to give us a service we want because we change providers.
iansltx

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Re: Regardless...

Yep. If I was a public entity in favor of open access I'd create a gigabit point to point fiber network and have ISPs interconnect to it as needed to provide service.

Though if I was a private entity I'd just wait for 10GPON to come out and deploy that. Open access is harder on the physical level, though you can still sell ISP service on top of the physical layer if you do your routing right, though it adds some complexities to the equation. All that said, 10 Gbits of capacity per node generates the same effect as comparing DOCSIS 3 cable to ADSL2+. DSL is a point to point connection but significantly slower per subscriber than the combined speed of bonded channels. The result: you can get 50 Mbps DOCSIS 3 service and can't do that with ADSL2+.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: Regardless...

The problem with waiting on technology is that it is a trap. By the time 10GPON(or whatever tech) comes out and is cheap 100GPON(or whatever in next) will be where 10GPON is right now. It is an essentially endless cycle.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO

Re: Regardless...

Not really. 10GPON is pretty much out already. No use deploying GPON (2.5 Gbps) equipment now.

milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H2Z

Re: Regardless...

And being a fibre based network, doesn't a network upgrade simply involve upgrading the equipment at the endpoints? The fibre itself shouldn't need to be replaced.

ZappaF

@myvzw.com

Susan Crawford Doesn't Work for the FCC

... she works for the National Economic Council, an office in the White House. A job that she is only doing while on sabattical from her regular gig as a law professor.

TKJunkMail
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Commentary knocks FCC's Net Neutrality plans

»news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-103858···35_3-0-5
Let me save you the trouble of reading the 185 numbered paragraphs, 310 footnotes, and three appendices, including separate statements from each of the five commissioners: there's nothing to see here, folks.

If the FCC has any authority to regulate broadband access, it comes from what Genachowski calls the agency's "ancillary jurisdiction." But Comcast has already challenged that jurisdiction, in a lawsuit pending in a federal court of appeals. If the FCC loses that case, the proposed rules may come to a quick demise. In arguing against ancillary jurisdiction, Comcast has found a surprising ally: the Electronic Frontier Foundation. The advocacy group--strong supporters of the principles of neutrality--believes that the commission has no authority to issue these rules without sweeping new authority from Congress. Regulating neutrality under ancillary jurisdiction, the EFF worries, is a cure far worse than the disease; a "power grab that would leave the Internet subject to the regulatory whims of the FCC long after Chairman Genachowski leaves his post."

EFF isn't the only surprising voice calling for caution. Microsoft and Yahoo, leading application providers, have both pulled out of a coalition formed to advance Net neutrality, with Microsoft issuing a statement last year that "Network neutrality is a policy avenue the company is no longer pursuing."

Even if the FCC has the power to issue new rules, there are enough exceptions to render them toothless. All the rules are subject to "reasonable network management" by broadband providers, a sensible limitation that is mentioned (though not yet defined) 66 times in the document. Harvard professor and open-network supporter Lawrence Lessig, who told the press that he was "thrilled" with the FCC proposal, has always believed that "broadband providers should be free...to price consumer access to the Internet differently--setting a higher price, for example, for faster or greater access."

Regulating ahead of a market failure makes little sense when, as everyone acknowledges, the underlying technology for access is evolving rapidly and models for making money in Internet provisioning are still in the early stages of development. The risk of non-neutral behavior is significant, but the cost of regulation and the potential for unintended consequences may be higher.
In other words the FCC should keep it's regulatory fingers out of net neutrality until and IF they are needed. And even then they need Congress to approve laws giving them the authority to do so.
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ZappaF

@myvzw.com

Re: Commentary knocks FCC's Net Neutrality plans

Was this an open thread? Hold your powder until there is the inevitable network neutrality post of the day.

But that aside, this article deserves to be mocked, because it ends with the conclusion that the FCC could have solved all these concerns had it just done more to promote broadband over powerline!

What a joke.

TKJunkMail
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1 edit

Re: Commentary knocks FCC's Net Neutrality plans

said by ZappaF

But that aside, this article deserves to be mocked, because it ends with the conclusion that the FCC could have solved all these concerns had it just done more to promote broadband over powerline!

Another article saying the same things from network engineers. But hey, what dio they know.

»tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/2009···ityrules
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tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

non-last mile network

this is all about the non-last mile nework...
though, which company to partner with?
the big 3 are at&t, comcast and verizon. the logical position to take would be that it would have to be a partership between all 3... 20% comcast, 20% at&t, 10% verizon. the obvious goal is to make non-last mile bandwidth as plentiful & SATURATED as in the northeast. this means laying NEW FIBER with the fastest switches (multi-terabit over single fiber switching probably is on the cusp of being ready for mass market already--fully automated and non-power/resource consuming when not utilized). still, i'm not sure the US government (with all its current problems) would be onboard with a 50% ownership of this network and giving the companies the option to buy back up to 5% of it's geographical footprint's worth every year (**once it's built AND begins serving customers in the last mile**). what will be exciting is when these new 14-25tbit switches enter the picture instead of 40-100gige switches. that will enable 100/100+ mbit connections across a wider geography than once possible than just 8 years ago with fewer actual cables needing to be deployed.

sdfgsbgrgffg

@insightbb.com

???

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't congress pass a bill in the early 90's that allowed carriers to tax consumers for the purpose of deploying a fiber optic network across America. And didn't a congressional committee determine in 2008 that we have already paid 250% of the estimated cost of that network? I oppose anything other than ending that tax and forcing the carriers to build the entire network we already paid for and nothing less.
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