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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
 ·Comcast
| You may have the right... ... to request a subpeona, but not barge into my house. And as long as BPL is on the table, they would have a very weak case 
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: You may have the right... But when they go to ask the judge for punitive fines, wouldn't they be better served asking for a subpeona? The judge, having never heard of me or my supposed crime, would not feel obligated to fine or punish me to the fullest extent as he is probably just as surprised as I was at the intrusion I'm a half full kinda guy hehe and the few dealings with judges Ive had suggests they are usually on the right side of the judgement.. whether it's the determination or punitive phase.
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
»www.memphispcguy.com | |
| | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| They'd barge in my house my roommate would shoot them LoL. She'd claim breaking and entering which gave her the right to shoot them.
The FCC is not a law enforcment agency and does not have the right to barge in any house or anything.
If they want in they need to go and get a warrant just like the police have to.
But i agree with you! | |
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
·Comcast
3 edits | Re: You may have the right... Not sure, but the whole Bang Bang Bang "Open up this is the FCC..." may make that a shakey defense at best .. especially if her Microwave is unshielded.
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
»www.memphispcguy.com | |
| | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: You may have the right... It would fall under Breaking and Entering and defending your property here.
If you break in someone's house and they shoot you when you are in their house, the person that shot is at fault. That would include the FCC due they would not be invited and they are not a law enforcement agency. They do not have any powers to enter any house with out a warrant regardless. If they would apply for a warrant and would have it granted to them. They could not serve that on their own. They would have to seek an agency to serve the warrant with them. | |
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Guy Hones
@rcn.com
| Re: You may have the right... Actually, a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force to defend himself or others in his own home against the threat of imminent force. Technically, the homeowner is defending his person, not property, but, regardless of intent, the line is blurred in such scenarios, and most juries are sympathetic to the homeowner and willing to give him or her the benefit of the doubt, assuming a prosecution arises out of the incident, which is generally unlikely. | |
| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| There are only 3 recognized categories of law enforcement with power of the search warrent...
Federal, State, and County... they all have officers that are of the court.. Police don't even execute search warrant... just the sheriff and higher.
I have to agree with hotboi on this one.. the constitution, unless you ask Bush, requires a warrant to enter. Simply knocking on the door and flashing a badge just not count either.. In that case, it would be illegal search and seizure, easily.
However, why we're discussing a blog in the first place in beyond me. | |
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: You may have the right... If I were a betting man... they would show up in that cool truck/van and knock on the door and discuss it. Chances are good its the knockee and not the knocker that gets buck wild in the large scheme of things. See My Point ------^
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
»www.memphispcguy.com | |
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN | But they can flash a badge and ASK to come in correct? If you grant access what rights have you waived ?
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
»www.memphispcguy.com | |
| | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: You may have the right... I agree with your point.. my message was in the spirit of the topic.. if they come to my door, for example, and are civilized about it, not just flipping their badge and pushing weight with out a warrant and demanding, then yea, I'm going to talk to them at the door.
If they come demanding and pushing me around like I don't matter, and force their way in.. the tax payers will be paying me a buck or two.. however, you're right.. they're usually going to come and explain what's going on... not "barge in".. I said it before earlier, why are we worked up about some blogger anyway?? | |
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
·Comcast
3 edits | Re: You may have the right... I have yet to be approched by a civil servant in that manner. Its easy to conjure up stormtroppers. But mindless stormtroopers are somewhat far and few between thank goodness. There is evidence they exist i.e;" Iraqi Torture" but when I was in the Military it was stressed upon me that following orders does not include breaking laws. Not that cut and dry but there is an underlying philosophy to our Military ... we can all lead if placed in that position .. "there is no head on the battlefield, just a tale"
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| My place is posted, all twentycouple acres of it. No Trespassing! In my driveway I have strategically placed a reflective sign that reads, "This property protected by Smith&Wesson three days a week, you guess which three."
If a cop gets close enough to me to flash a badge, he's breaking the law., and may well pay for it with his life. It's quiet around here and a gunshot or two isn't even noticed by the neighbors. Backhoes bury cruisers easily and they say cops make good chum slicks, too.
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"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom." -- Greek Proverb | |
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MemphisPCGuy
Senior Systems Engineer
Premium
join:2004-05-09
Memphis, TN
·Comcast
3 edits | Re: You may have the right... If they have the warrant - flashing the badge is a courtesy. I assume you are like the several million other responsible NRA members and will ask first, shoot twice?
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Onsite Computer Support in Memphis
»www.memphispcguy.com | |
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD | Re: You may have the right... I believe the topic is, "Exploring FCC Warrantless Home Searches."
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"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom." -- Greek Proverb | |
| | | | | | | ang_mor
join:2009-05-02
Mont-Royal, QC
| quoting luster: If a cop gets close enough to me to flash a badge, he's breaking the law., and may well pay for it with his life. OK, one question, one comment:
1. Question: For "posted"/Ohio properties how does a duly authorized officer (read: Federal, State. or County) serve/execute a duly authorized (judge signed) warrant without getting their head shot off ?
2. Comment: police ARE authorized to enter a property/building/apartment if a 911 call is received, and there are certain "signs" during the call (request for help/screams/hangup/etc.). VoIP has caused problems with this aspect with spoofed origin/fake calls leading to Swatting. | |
| | | | | | | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| a sticky place for the FCC would be states with "Make my Day" laws. however im sure event he FCC would be smarter then to just walk into a house for that reason.
that said they also cannot fine someone if their Linksys is kicking off too much power and is stock from the factory.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: You may have the right... said by Kearnstd  :that said they also cannot fine someone if their Linksys is kicking off too much power and is stock from the factory. IF you deny the FCC access to your property to examine the device, they can fine you for that. The Court upheld that very ruling.
»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/fcc-raid/
But refusing the FCC admittance can carry a harsh financial penalty. In a 2007 case, a Corpus Christi, Texas, man got a visit from the FCC’s direction-finders after rebroadcasting an AM radio station through a CB radio in his home. An FCC agent tracked the signal to his house and asked to see the equipment; Donald Winton refused to let him in, but did turn off the radio. Winton was later fined $7,000 for refusing entry to the officer.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
| | | K Patterson
Premium,MVM
join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by Kearnstd :that said they also cannot fine someone if their Linksys is kicking off too much power and is stock from the factory. Sure they can. Part 15 is not a license, it is an approval system and the use of a part 15 devices that you not cause interference to other licensed services,
No "make my day" law in any jurisdiction authorizes anyone to use deadly force for any misdemeanor such as simple trespass. | |
|
hihjkhjkhjk
@comcast.net | This is the government....... and they can do whatever they want brother. It's no skin off their nose except maybe for a few thousand in fines. Then they ge slapped on the wrist, shrug their shoulders and ... "okay". | |
| | whiteyonenh
join:2004-08-09
Keene, NH
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: This is the government....... said by hihjkhjkhjk :
and they can do whatever they want brother. It's no skin off their nose except maybe for a few thousand in fines. Then they ge slapped on the wrist, shrug their shoulders and ... "okay".
The gubmint fining the gubmint? how does that work? | |
| | | dks7
join:2004-05-31 | Re: This is the government....... The government has NO rights, We the people have rights, them douche bags have privileges, granted to them by we the people, and I say its high time their revoked. | |
| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY | Re: This is the government....... Straight to Gitmo you go. | |
| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Crudely put.. but pretty much correct.
It's funny how people forget, or mistake the purpose of the constitution, however, it's not there to give us as people rights.. it LARGELY restricts the reach of the powers the government wants and tries to take over the people.. it's the one thing that stands between us and the few shreds of liberty we have left these days. | |
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| I agree w/dks7.., how much longer are we going to take this? I don't think I'm the one to organize an attention getter but, I will certainly work my butt off for whomever does.
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"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom." -- Greek Proverb | |
| BPLSUCKS
join:2006-04-26
Grand Ledge, MI | Better not come into my home I shoot any intruder into my home...I hope they have good insurance. | |
| | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: Better not come into my home Take out a Federal agent and your insurance company will suddenly forget you...while you rot in prison. | |
| | | 
old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."
join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD
| Re: Better not come into my home said by RadioDoc :Take out a Federal agent and your insurance company will suddenly forget you...while you rot in prison. Just ask Janet Reno/the ATF & the FBI if they'd bother to knock, warrant ?, we don't need no steekin' warrant.
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"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..." | |
| | Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL | And I hope you have a good defense team. | |
| | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Better not come into my home Its funny how people fear the government...
If someone, even a fed, comes barging in my home with out a warrant and claims authority.. I'm shooting them too.. no badge allows them the right to violate the constitution.. I'd just make sure I got them in the chest, not the back.
In this day and age, or era if you will, of Bondage, if this happens and was challenged, I"m siding on the side of the citizen.. people are getting tired of the over reach of the "law".. and the pressure of the public is growing strong.. it's hard for the govt to pull stunts anymore.. the people are getting too angry, and the know it. | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs: | Re: Better not come into my home Never knew the FCC had law enforcement officers... | |
| | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Better not come into my home I agree with you. I believe they don't. They're "power" does not give them to enter any house or anything and "inspect" anything they wish.
They'd find their ass shot in my house or thrown out the damn door they walked in. Hell try walking in anyhouse in my city like that and you have a 99% chance of being shot on the spot and maybe then tied to the front porch for the police to come get you. | |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Better not come into my home said by hottboiinnc :try walking in anyhouse in my city like that and you have a 99% chance of being shot on the spot and maybe then tied to the front porch for the police to come get you. Wow. A whole city, clinging to their God and their guns.
NV
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I call it the Crapture. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by ropeguru :Never knew the FCC had law enforcement officers... They have enforcement employees but not law enforcement officers per se. Read the enforcement letters that occasionally come up in the FCC Daily Digest. They'll call other in agencies. I've never seen it in a synopsis where they have just entered a building. Usually they take measurements outside the premise, give several notices, make several phones calls, and when the law breaker continues to act like a dork, they issue a Notice of Apparent Liability for $10K or $20K or more. The defendant then usually writes a letter saying they can't pay, and then the FCC knocks a couple thousand off the fine. Send the check in and have a nice day, or get your attorney geared up, or buy some soap on a rope for prison.
So all the amateur lawyers here can put away their ammo. | |
| | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | This thread is a hoot. One phone call and all these cowboys are planted, unmarked, in the desert while the government merrily hums along.. | |
| RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| WiFi is a stretch... Anyone using WiFi frequencies and generating enough power to cause interference to licensed services would also be baking their snarglies. The least of your worries then is the FCC.
Pirate broadcast operations are totally different. Operating in the broadcast band with higher than Part 15 power levels without a license is already illegal and once the FCC has proof of such operation Federal Marshals are brought along for muscle. In Florida, it is a state felony to operate without a license so once such an operation is confirmed the state can take over enforcement and prosecution. Then there is the potential for significant interference to air navigation and communications frequencies which lie just above the FM band which will get you forcibly shut down if your shitty transmitter is hindering airspace operations.
While the administrative inspection angle generates blog hits and speculation, the FCC is so understaffed that it is a safe bet they won't be going door-to-door to look at your Bluetooth mouse or cantenna-equipped access point. | |
| 
Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs: | fail just sue them
that is all you got to do because it all ready has the FCC stamp on it | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Torrance, CA
clubs: | Nothing new.... They're just following the well-established plans of the BATFE.
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One man's Magic is another man's Engineering. | |
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chpalmer
join:2002-11-18
Belfair, WA
·wavebroadband
 ·VOIPo
| Re: FCC using a law used to seize unlicensed transmitters.
Yes and meanwhile the poor guy that just made an unscheduled landing on a hillside and is clinging to life with the knowledge that his e.l.t. is doing its job leading help to him is out of luck because the people who are monitoring are instead hearing your television and have no idea the crash victim is in trouble.
Its a catch 22 unfortunately...
But truthfully. The agents Ive worked with have always called for help from law enforcement before entering any property, citing liability... Most people dont know they have interfering equipment and are all to happy to turn it off immediately. | |
| | 
Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
1 edit | If they believe someone is committing a crime, then them show probable cause to a judge and obtain a warrant.
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POKE 65495,1 | |
| sneumann55
join:2002-07-27
Yonkers, NY
| WOW Yes i believe a court challenge may go in the offenders corner, however all that would do is add a step to the searching of your property, being that the FCC would apply for a search warrant based upon there measurements and observations. And at that point they would get local law or us marshals involved, who would like to bust you for anything illeagal they may find.
I cannot see the FCC busting your door down, i believe they would more than likely ask to come in and explain the issue. You could refuse or request to call a lawyer. Or if your totally unaware of the issue, maybe just accept their advice.
Pirate radio stations on the other hand, if the fail to respond to the Violation Notice, would more than likely be the first one to be involved the warrant-less search issue. We have rights and the way to clarify our rights is to bring it before the courts. Just My thoughts, please forgive the spelling, no glasses on
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SNeumann, Southern NYS,Fios 20/20,,Sprint Mobile Broadband.Via Talk, MagicJack | |
| craigmc
join:2000-06-04
Redwood City, CA
·AT&T Yahoo
| This is normal for all licensed users I am a radio amateur and have worked at a number of commercial radio stations, both broadcast and utility during my career. A condition of the license grant for all stations is that an FCC inspector has the right to enter the premises - without prior notice - at any time. For an amateur that means, of course, my home is open to the FCC.
I think it is only fair that my neighbors' homes should also be open to the FCC if they choose to use any Part 15 devices. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: This is largely overblown. I agree. People have been FCC licensees for decades and just haven't realized it. Anytime you buy a device that has Part 15 emissions, you're technically an FCC licensee. Just about every electronic device has Part 15 emissions.
It's quite funny that their main focus in the article is a pirate radio station. Of course they have a reason to be paranoid. This is like cocaine dealers worried about the DEA busting down their doors. The DEA could bust down your door for misusing that eight year old leftover bottle of Vicodin in your medicine cabinet, but probably won't.
As an aside, pirate radio stations have been doing remote and distributed operations for many, many years. This Wired article is just lousy journalism. | |
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Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | Yeah, 'cause the gov't is so trustworthy.
No thanks, they can get a warrant.
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POKE 65495,1 | |
| | Mce Saint
join:2007-10-03
Saint Louis, MO
·AT&T Midwest
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Point totally missed, however.
Assume that your device IS certified under part 15. Assume further that your device is unmodified.
The question is: does the FCC have the right to *make sure* that you device is REALLY compliant/unmodified by entering your property without a warrant?
The FCC says yes.
Afterall, it's not unheard of for a device - even one certified as compliant and not modified by the end user - to be defectively manufactured or to malfunction (see the example of the television above). Perhaps the quality control guy at Linksys had a bad case of the flu that day and a few routers went out with "a problem."
And, once inside your house to check to see whether your certified compliant, unmodified router really isn't misbehaving, the FCC inspectors could report (to other law enforcement officers) any other crimes it sees while inside - ya know, like that kilo of crack cocaine on your kitchen table.
But, I have to agree that the "problem" is largely hypothetical. As noted above, it's very unlikely that the FCC is just going to bust down your door. 99.9% of the time it plays out as described by others: you get a letter asking you to stop or a knock on the door explaining the issue and that they think you have a problem.
But that 0.1% of the time is still out there. And, in theory, could materialize.
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| Austinloop
join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX | New boss, same as old boss Well, obama's FCC isn't markedly differently that the previous administration. | |
| | ElJay
join:2004-03-17
·Great Works Internet
| Re: New boss, same as old boss The FCC is shutting down unlicensed FM and AM stations. This is what they're supposed to do. They are not going to bust into your house and tell you to stop using a wireless router on 2.4ghz. The analysis by Wired is ridiculous, and it's even worse when people don't read the article to find out for themselves that the author is paranoid to the extreme. | |
| |
rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by Austinloop :Well, obama's FCC isn't markedly differently that the previous administration. Correct, except this administration actually has the gumption to do something about the lack of broadband, has an interim Chairman who isn't promoting an environment of distrust that the FCC rank and file can respect, has a nominated permanent Chairman who actually has a clue, and doesn't have a presidential administration hell-bent on corporatism. But other than that it's just like the old FCC... | |
| 
FunnyBones
Premium
join:2004-01-22
usa
·Vonage
1 edit | Communications Act of 1934 Section 303(n) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, (Act) gives the Federal Communications Commission the "authority to inspect all radio installations associated with stations required to be licensed by any Act, or which the Commission by rule has authorized to operate without a license under section 307(e)(1), or which are subject to the provisions of any Act, treaty, or convention binding on the United States . . ." 47 U.S.C. 303(n) Both Section 303(n) of the Act, and the Rules which implement the Act, grant the right to inspect most radio operations to the Commission, and by delegated authority to the Commission's Bureaus and agents. The Enforcement Bureau conducts inspections of radio installations as part of the Bureau's function to "[e]nforce the Commission's Rules and Regulations." 47 CFR 0.111(a).
Both licensees and non-licensees must allow an FCC Agent to inspect their radio equipment. Along with the privilege of possessing a license come responsibilities such as knowing the applicable rules, including allowing the station to be inspected. Licensees should be aware of the Commission's right to inspect. Equally important, FCC Agents are allowed to inspect the radio equipment of non-licensees. Non-licensees include those individuals or entities operating in accordance with Part 15 of the Rules. Non-licensees also include those who should have a license to operate their equipment but have not obtained a license and are operating without authority.
Here is the full text of the communications act of 1934.
»www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003···8A1.html
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Fb:2009 Take the quintessence and all will be reveled. | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
PrezBOsFCC
@charter.com | FCC Certification ? Wait a minute? Ain't everything sold (entering) in US "certified" by FCC. Even my GPS dog collar is FCC certified...Either that certification ain't worth the paper is written on, or this is another socialist gimmick. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: FCC Certification ? said by PrezBOsFCC :
Wait a minute? Ain't everything sold (entering) in US "certified" by FCC. Even my GPS dog collar is FCC certified...Either that certification ain't worth the paper is written on, or this is another socialist gimmick.
Certified equipment meets Part 15 emissions limits (assuming we're talking about unlicensed equipment for the moment - there are certifications for other parts in CFR47). Even if the equipment meets the emissions limit, it can still interfere with other equipment and licensed services. If that happens, the equipment needs to be adjusted to not interfere or it must cease operation. The emission limits were set to eliminate most interference but not all. The limits are not tighter in order to make the cost of unlicensed consumer grade equipment reasonable.
Regulation and socialism are two different things, and the certification process, emissions limits, and unlicensed operation rules have been around for eons. | |
| 
NickD
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Princeton Junction, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Pirate stations There are pirate stations on every unused FM frequency in Newark, NJ. Many of those have been on the air for years and have a 30 mile range that includes New York City. Most of them play Caribbean music or rap. The FCC doesn't do anything to them. So even if you build a pirate station and play your tunes for the world to hear, the FCC won't barge into your home. | |
| 
BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Night-Owl
join:2007-01-11
| Put down the router, and slowly back away! »www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycVTXtm0U0
Wonder if FCC would come calling if they heard you watched "Max-Headroom" over your Wi-Fi.  | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA | Re: Put down the router, and slowly back away! They should have caught the guy that jammed that cool Max Headroom show with that boring British video | |
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Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
·VOIPo
·Cox HSI
1 edit | Uh, no Constitution of the United States > Communicatons Act of 1934.
If they believe a crime is being committed, let them show probably cause to a judge and obtain a search warrant as required by the Constitution of the United States.
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POKE 65495,1 | |
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | The Second Amendment vs. The Fourth Amendment "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Where does it say except for? I truly don't see how ANY local, state or federal agency can misread or fail to comprehend what our forefathers' intent was here. They can dance around words and legaleeze all they want to but, the words don't change.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
This gives me the right to have guns.., it doesn't even say I have to keep them home. It simply says "I have the right to bear arms", it doesn't say where. This, Second Amendment, is law and as Federal law it trumps state law. I read, I can carry a gun anytime anywhere.
Now, my point, I'll blow their fuqn heads off before they get into my house w/o a warrent. Don't pick a fight w/an old man., he'll just kill you. We've lived a long fruitful life, what's a few years in prison to us?
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"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom." -- Greek Proverb | |
| | 
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: The Second Amendment vs. The Fourth Amendment said by luster :Where does it say except for? It's called "probable cause." If a cop sees a suspected bank robber run into a house, he doesn't have to wait for a warrant. Same thing if a cop smells pot when coming to your home for an entirely different reason.
I suppose if the FCC identifies interference emitting from your property, that too is "probable cause."
I'm not saying it rises to the level of a "dynamic entry" (flash-bang grenades, and ninja guys repelling in through the window). But, it's retarded to claim the 4th amendment is absolute.
Mark | |
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: The Second Amendment vs. The Fourth Amendment Mark, you forgot to continue to the end. Why is it that cops and the like keep forgetting the rest of that line? It goes...
...but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Why, oh why is it never completed?
Ureeka, I've got it.., it's because it takes on a whole different meaning then!!! One that doesn't fit their agenda., methinks.
edit add:
Were I home, that cop chasing the "supposed" bank robber.., would NOT come barging into my house no matter what he thought he saw!
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"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom." -- Greek Proverb | |
| | | | Mce Saint
join:2007-10-03
Saint Louis, MO
·AT&T Midwest
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: The Second Amendment vs. The Fourth Amendment The actual text of the Fourth Amendment is :
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures , shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Consequently, the 4th amendment protects ONLY against UNREASONABLE searches and seizures.
In some cases it is unreasonable to conduct a search without a warrant; in other cases it is NOT unreasonable to conduct a search without a warrant.
When a warrant is required to avoid having an unreasonable search, then the warrant must be based on probable cause supported by oath and affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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luster
join:2009-03-28
Berlin, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: The Second Amendment vs. The Fourth Amendment Mark,
Perhaps in some other day, well within our past, when cops were lawmen and not of the 'holier then thou' caliber that most are today, I could have at least agreed with you on 'sufficient *evidence*' and entering a home.
However, in this day and time a cop doesn't deserve an even break.., particularly when it comes to entering someone's home. I think of it this way, when they start to show me some wiggle room and begin to see themselves for who and what they really are, when they begin to tell the cyclist, "Hey, no riding on the sidewalk, pal," instead of arresting them and lying about procedures as they lock them up, or maybe when cops realizes that, "Yeah, seatbelts are a great idea but, a law that requires them isn't really necessary, it's just taking away some more of our freedom and really shouldn't be a law at all..." When cops realize they are in a unique position to interpret laws and they begin to look at people as more then just an underling, perhaps then I will be able to see the gray in between the black & white. Until then, I'll steadfastly hold my ground.
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"Homeland Security: A warm fuzzy way of saying Police State." | |
| K Patterson
Premium,MVM
join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| Get the rules right! Most of the posts in this thread are inaccurate.
The FCC is an administrative agency. As such, it has no police powers whatsoever. They do have the right by law to inspect any transmitting equipment, licensed or not. If you deny them entry to your home or business they will go away, but see below.
As an administrative agency, they have the power to levy fines, and use the Justice Department to collect them. They do this without any court action because their enforcement actions are administrative, not criminal.
So, what happens goes as follows:
They get a report of interference. They go out and measure the level of the signal, and locate its source. They knock on the door and ask to see the equipment. If you tell them to go away, they will, but they will warn you that you will be fined.
You will get a "Notice of Apparent Liability". It will list the amount of the proposed fine (see »www.fcc.gov/eb/otherinfo/fcc97218.html, at the very end, for a table of the fines). You can contest this and plead indingency. The will eventually issue a forfeiture order and turn it over to Justice if it is not paid?
Want your day in court after you've been cited? You will have to bring an action against the FCC. it is rarely done, the infamous televised boob slip being a notable exception.
For folks that insist that the fourth amendment requires a warrant for every government intrusion on your land, guess again. Health and building inspectors, game wardens, etc are just a couple of the many exceptions. Moreover, in no part of this country do you have a right to use deadly force against a trespasser (yes, I know about the laws in some states that don't require you to retreat from a person intending you harm). | |
| ThereYouAre
join:2003-11-17
| Already been there A few years ago a local ham repeater was causing harmful interference to a federal service. The FCC determined the source of the interference and asked the local police to contact the person officially listed in the FCC records as the trustee for the callsign of the repeater.
The local police showed up at his door, explained that they were there for the FCC and explained what the FCC had told them. The police basically said "we don't understand the technical details, but they said you would, so can you please resolve this?" The fellow immediately got to the site and turned off the repeater.
He was then contacted by the FCC directly to discuss the problem. Since it was an equipment malfunction and not a deliberate attempt to cause interference, there were no consequences except that he had to report the problem was fixed before turning on the repeater again.
This was about 5 years ago. There were no doors being broken down, and the local police were asked to intervene. If the ham refused to cooperate, then maybe it would have gotten ugly, but everyone worked quickly and efficiently to solve the problem so there were no problems. This particular incident could have involved FAR more serious consequences than a simple WiFi device could have, yet everyone was civil. | |
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SpuriousOne
@qwest.net
| Warrantless entry IS legal There IS a circumstance where law enforcement personnel have the right to enter your home without a warrant.... and that is if they believe a crime is being committed within the home. With a bit of a stretch, I can see the FCC enforcement staff using that same guideline. | |
| | K Patterson
Premium,MVM
join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH | Re: Warrantless entry IS legal You are confusing the actions of a police force with those of an admiinistrative agency. Law enforcement officers may indeed pursue a felon onto and into your property. The FCC has no police powers. | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Warrantless entry IS legal said by K Patterson :You are confusing the actions of a police force with those of an admiinistrative agency. Law enforcement officers may indeed pursue a felon onto and into your property. The FCC has no police powers. I agree with you. However, the story doesn't seem to be about the FCC forcing its way into your home. Just that FCC rules provide for fines if you deny them entry based upon their claims of probable cause.
Mark | |
| | | | K Patterson
Premium,MVM
join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH | Re: Warrantless entry IS legal My response was not to the story but to one poster's remarks.
Probable cause is an issue having to do with criminal law. There is no criminal law involved here. They do not need probable cause. | |
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Exploring FCC Warrantless Home Searches
FCC using a law used to seize unlicensed transmitters.
The the FCC is citing is a law which is used to locate and shut down unlicensed radio stations. Each year the FCC tracks down and seizes the transmitters of several unlicensed radio stations. Usually the FCC investigation begins when a licensed radio station files a complaint against an interfering radio station.