Embarq, WOW Bury Snooping In Terms Of ServiceUsers not being clearly alerted to use of behavioral advertising systems... ( old news - 11:36AM Monday Apr 07 2008) tags: business · privacy · Embarq · CenturyTel Inc. · WOW Internet and CableA debate is raging in the UK over ISPs' use of deep packet inspection hardware to watch consumer surfing habits and sell them targeted ads. The conversation here in the States remains muted, largely because the biggest ISPs haven't implemented such systems yet (given the ceaseless need to please investors, they will). The handful of ISPs that have implemented these systems ( WOW, Embarq, Centurytel) haven't exactly been shouting it from the hilltops.  By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you. -Embarq's privacy policy on company's use of NebuAD |
Last February we spoke with NebuAD, one of the leading players in the behavioral advertising space. NebuAD CEO Bob Dykes told us that "multiple tens of ISPs" have signed off to use their system, which places deep packet inspection hardware on the ISP network to track which sites you visit, and how long you visit them. ISPs get paid a monthly check, and your supposedly anonymous browsing data is used to feed you interest-tailored advertising. At the time, Dykes told us that part of NebuAD's contract language with ISPs requires they clearly inform customers they've started using the technology, giving them ample opportunity to opt-out. ISPs clearly have a different definition of "clearly" than the rest of us. Wide Open West began using NebuAD services earlier this year, but the only way a customer would know was if they read the terms of service and FAQ closely. Embarq also "announced" their use of the system via fine print last fall, something discussed by a Washington Post article on behavioral advertising over the weekend. Some service providers, such as Embarq and Wide Open West, or WOW, have altered their customer-service agreements to permit the monitoring. Embarq describes the monitoring as a "preference advertising service." Wide Open West tells customers it is working with a third-party advertising network and names NebuAd as its partner. Officials at WOW and Embarq declined to talk about any monitoring that has been done. The pertinent paragraph from Embarq's privacy policy: EMBARQ may use information such as the websites you visit or online searches that you conduct to deliver or facilitate the delivery of targeted advertisements. The delivery of these advertisements will be based on anonymous surfing behavior and will not include users' names, email addresses, telephone numbers, or any other Personally Identifiable Information. You may choose to opt out of this preference advertising service. By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you. If you would like to opt out, click here. As with all implementations of NebuAD, opting out simply deposits a cookie on your system, so you'll need to opt-out again should you delete your cookies. "Opting out" only also prevents you from receiving targeted ads, it doesn't keep your information from being tracked and resold. We've seen only one ISP (UK ISP TalkTalk) address user privacy concerns by making the system opt in. Don't expect that from most providers, who'd be sabotaging a profitable revenue stream by caring about user privacy. We'd ask all broadband users to take a close look at the advertising related portion of their ISP's privacy policy, and fire us an e-mail if you find any reference to behavioral advertising technology. If these ISPs are not going to clearly announce their use of such services via e-mail or press release, surely customers won't mind doing it for them.
Related:- After Charter's Decision To Drop NebuAD, Will Other ISPs Follow?
- Embarq Rejected Higher Offer
- ISPs Play Dumb In NebuAD Lawsuit
- CenturyTel Plans To Use LTE For Rural Deployment
- Embarq/CenturyTel Union Getting Closer
- Embarq & Centurytel = CenturyLink
- 'New' FCC, Same Regulatory Rubber Stamp For CenturyLink
- FCC Greenlights Centurytel/Embarq With Wimpy Conditions
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MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC | Snooping ALL ISPs snoop and keep logs of your activity, don't kid yourself otherwise.
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The public is a poor business manager. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
 ·Embarq
| Re: Snooping said by MrMoody  :ALL ISPs snoop and keep logs of your activity, don't kid yourself otherwise. Not all ISPs use this data to inject ads in to your web browsing. There's a big difference. | |
| | 
Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| Hmmm... It really stinks that ISP's are doing this and hiding it in obscure wording (in some cases) in a lengthy TOS. I bet if they just came out and told everyone, most mom and pop users probably wouldnt care, and the rest of us use adblock anyway.
I can see it causing problems for houses that only have one pc that everyone uses. Dad stays up friday night looking at porn while evryones asleep. Saturday morning junior goes to look at the Cartoon Network site and is greeted by butt plug ads. And thats one reason why this whole "targeted advertising" thing wont work as well as they think it will. Because its targetting the pc doing the web browsing, not the user in front of the pc. So unless they are using user accounts, Mom going to baking sites is getting tool ads, Dad going to sports sites is getting feminine hygene ads, Sis going to myspace is getting DragonBallZ ads and lil Brother going to Cartton Network is getting ads for Brittany's new album.
In all honesty though, I think they should figure out how much using my browsing behavior makes them a month, and then discount a percentage of that off the monthly bill for opting IN. Even if its only like $5, it seems a fair trade that way. Lose a little bit of perceived privacy for a discount on your bill. | |
| | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Hmmm... If you're actually doing something on your PC you don't want your kids to see, get your own PC and put a password lock on it, or if you must share a PC, at least set up separate accounts for family members. That way each user will have their own sets of cookies. You should do these things regardless of what your ISP is doing about tracking, it's just good practice.
There will never be a "ad revenue" discount on your bill. Does your cable TV service give you a discount for the ads they sell on your channels? Do magazines give you a discount on subscriptions for the ads they run? No.
It would just confuse subscribers and be another thing for customer service to deal with. The ad revenue just gets flowed back into the company as another source of income besides subscriber fees. | |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| Re: Hmmm... Its well established that most BBR users know that user accounts and passwords are good ideas. But I'm talking about Joe Average. Its been my experience that even when average users set up user accounts, they are rarely used correctly. While visiting family a while back, I went to use my grandfathers pc and he just old me his account password. My aunt and 2 cousins also had thier own accounts, but everyone knew my grandfathers (admin) password and whenever thier account wouldnt let them do something, they logged into his and did it. The same situation goes on at my brothers house (who isnt related to the other family). I know its not everyone, but its been more common in my experience than the people who use them correctly.
I know they probably wont ever give an ad revenue discount, but my point was that if they did, it would give them a huge PR boost and make many people WANT to opt in to the service. It wouldnt even need to be monetary discount. For the people who actually use thier ISP email/webspace, a bump in storage would be enough for a lot of people to want to opt in. See, if they bundled it with something users wanted, most everyday users would opt in if they judged the pro to be better than the con. | |
| | | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
1 edit | Re: Hmmm... said by Boogeyman :Its well established that most BBR users know that user accounts and passwords are good ideas. But I'm talking about Joe Average. Its been my experience that even when average users set up user accounts, they are rarely used correctly. While visiting family a while back, I went to use my grandfathers pc and he just old me his account password. My aunt and 2 cousins also had thier own accounts, but everyone knew my grandfathers (admin) password and whenever thier account wouldnt let them do something, they logged into his and did it. The same situation goes on at my brothers house (who isnt related to the other family). I know its not everyone, but its been more common in my experience than the people who use them correctly. Yep, I've seen exactly the same thing. IMHO personal computers were a huge mistake. Making consumers the bit-level sysadmins of the most complex piece of gear in their house is really a terrible idea. See what we ended up with? Piracy, spam, phishing, botnets, DOS attacks, identity theft, fraud, exposing kids to porn, and the ability to abuse people anonymously. Great stuff, there.
We seem to be moving back towards a much more reasonable "cloud computing" architecture, where the PCs are really just nice powerful user interface boxes, and all the logic and data is outside of the PC, in "the cloud". See Google Apps for example. Now if they could just get away from the idea that users manage their own PCs, and start selling "cloud appliance" computers that are non-configurable by the consumer, maybe we'll see less of this.
I know they probably wont ever give an ad revenue discount, but my point was that if they did, it would give them a huge PR boost and make many people WANT to opt in to the service. It wouldnt even need to be monetary discount. For the people who actually use thier ISP email/webspace, a bump in storage would be enough for a lot of people to want to opt in. See, if they bundled it with something users wanted, most everyday users would opt in if they judged the pro to be better than the con.
Well, I suppose this might be attractive to you, and maybe a small circle of people. But I think the average person would say "huh? you want me to do what for what?" The customer service calls cost alone would probably piss away any revenue or good will this might create.
People are used to the reduced-cost-stuff-for-advertising business model. See radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, and even Google. A new business model that says "we'll give you XYZ for accepting advertising" I just can't see taking hold. | |
| | | | | kiamsiamdala
join:2001-11-05
Utica, MI | Re: Hmmm... You can keep your cloud appliance, thank you very much. I like the complexity of my machines.
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'void planets roll regardless of desolation' | |
| MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about I mean, so I get a few targeted ads. So what? I can deal with that, I'm good at ignoring ads. And maybe they'll come up with something more relevant to me, who knows?
And it's not like they're keeping any personal information about me, just some aggregrated statistics on the kinds of sites I visit. I don't see the privacy concerns.
I really don't get why this is a front-page-news on BroadbandReports.com level issue. | |
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justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
·AT&T Yahoo
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about This is a big privacy concern. This would be similar to someone spying on you, noticing that you visit certain stores, keeping track of the general category of things you buy and you suddenly getting junk mail and TV advertisements related to the stuff you're already buying or looking at. | |
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GlenQuagmire
Giggidy Giggidy Giggidy Goo
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Grand Rapids, MI
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about said by justbits :This is a big privacy concern. This would be similar to someone spying on you, noticing that you visit certain stores, keeping track of the general category of things you buy and you suddenly getting junk mail and TV advertisements related to the stuff you're already buying or looking at. Stores and Credit car companies already do that. Once you swipe your credit card stores keep that info on file. Then when they can track all of your purchases no matter where in the country you shop.
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Yes, its stuck in a windows this time. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about If you ever purchased a home... take a guess at how many companies know about it.
- Mortgage companies
- House hold interior (carpet, paint, plumbing, electrical)
- Insurance
They all send you more cr@p ads (mortgage companies are bold enough to add in how much you have left on your mortgage!).
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
| | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
1 edit | said by justbits :This is a big privacy concern. This would be similar to someone spying on you, noticing that you visit certain stores, keeping track of the general category of things you buy and you suddenly getting junk mail and TV advertisements related to the stuff you're already buying or looking at. Ummm.. that happens now. And it's not "spying", that would be illegal. Credit card companies sell this information. If you have a supermarket discount card, they sell that information. Marketing companies take all kinds of demographic and public-record information and sell it. You get targeted ads all the time unless you're paranoid about it and put yourself off the grid on purpose.
This is another example of the delusion people here seem to have. I call it "Web sites are special, magic places." People here seem to think that because something is happening on the Web, normal rules and considerations don't apply. Well, they do. If people are doing business on the Web, it'll be like business outside the Web. They'll look to gather consumer information to do targeted advertising. This has been going on ever since direct mail advertising, long, long before the Web or TV or even radio existed.
Maybe I'm just not of the mindset of people here. I really don't have a problem with my generic product and market preference information being out there, in trade for me getting lower-cost access to many things I want to participate in. Advertising revenue is what makes a whole lot of content businesses fly. And that revenue increases the better targeted the advertising market is.
These people really don't care about your personally identifiable information (PII). They care about your demographic, your buying tendencies, your response to different kinds of advertising. So there really is little cause for privacy concerns, unless you think "privacy" includes "the ability to observe behavior of consumers in a market".
And what is the big deal about ads? Why are ads such an affont to people? You pay attention to them or you don't. Big freaking deal. I have no problem clicking close on a window, or hanging up the phone, or recycling junk mail, or deleting spam e-mail. All those things take up maybe 10 minutes a day, total. I spend more time shaving and brushing my teeth. | |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about I agree with you for the most part. I do feel uneasy having targeted ads, but it wouldnt bother me if in exchange for that, I get added features/reduced cost for my service.
On the other hand, ads DO bother me. For example: Theres one on NHL.com that fills the screen with a huge noisy flash overlay if you mouse over the banner (which is located at the top of the page between the articles and the links to get to other pages on the site).
Yes, it is rather trivial to just close it, ignore the ad, delete the spam, etc. But its still annoying and consumes time. | |
| | | | kiamsiamdala
join:2001-11-05
Utica, MI
| Well you seem pretty accepting of the ads/tracking, which is fine. To assume that others should be ok with it is a little off, methinks. If it weren't so damn inconvenient, I'd live off the grid.
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'void planets roll regardless of desolation' | |
| | 
Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| said by MyDogHsFleas :I mean, so I get a few targeted ads. So what? I really don't get why this is a front-page-news on BroadbandReports.com level issue. Because experience teaches us that this is always how it starts. Privacy for profit first; privacy for nefarious purposes second. Think about the adage "give an inch, take a mile" for a few minutes, and then think about your government for a few minutes afterward.
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| | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about said by Titus Pullo :said by MyDogHsFleas :I mean, so I get a few targeted ads. So what? I really don't get why this is a front-page-news on BroadbandReports.com level issue. Because experience teaches us that this is always how it starts. Privacy for profit first; privacy for nefarious purposes second. Think about the adage "give an inch, take a mile" for a few minutes, and then think about your government for a few minutes afterward. These are two completely different things that you have related together because of conspiracy fever.
Businesses want buying and ad-response information about people, so they can be more effective with their advertising spend. That has nothing to do with what the government may or may not want. The government could care less about your market behavior. | |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about said by MyDogHsFleas :said by Titus Pullo :said by MyDogHsFleas :I mean, so I get a few targeted ads. So what? I really don't get why this is a front-page-news on BroadbandReports.com level issue. Because experience teaches us that this is always how it starts. Privacy for profit first; privacy for nefarious purposes second. Think about the adage "give an inch, take a mile" for a few minutes, and then think about your government for a few minutes afterward. These are two completely different things that you have related together because of conspiracy fever. Businesses want buying and ad-response information about people, so they can be more effective with their advertising spend. That has nothing to do with what the government may or may not want. The government could care less about your market behavior. Well, unless you're suddenly ordering guns online  ...
And you know, turning anything resembling mistrust or being wary into "conspiracy fever" won't fly because enough people have learned how hard others work to turn words that convey simple concepts into a pejorative -- like the word "liberal" for example.
No one is claiming - at least I hope not - that these ISPs are in cahoots w/the Illuminati, only that it's another avenue of ingress for *possible* abuses of privacy, if you're so inclined to believe such abuses exist. I do.
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| | | | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about said by Titus Pullo :Well, unless you're suddenly ordering guns online ... You raise an excellent point. The Government IS interested in illegal buying activity over the Internet. Illegal weapons, child porn, mail fraud, etc. So I should have said "the government could care less about your LEGAL market behavior".
And sorry if I hit a sore spot with the "conspiracy fever" comment. I'm all about mistrust and being wary. My point is, I just don't think tracking consumer behavior for ad targeting is something that deserves much wariness. | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs: | Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about I think it does need some wariness. The definition of what's legal can change in a heartbeat. It may not be illegal to search for Vegetarian Aliens now, but do you want the gov't to know you used to search for them before it was made illegal?
KM | |
| | | | | | | | | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: This is like 253rd on the list of things I'm concerned about said by MrMoody :Personal predictions, you saw 'em here first: Obama will be nominated and win the election by a landslide and the biggest Democratic victory since LBJ in 1964 if not bigger. 2009 will see the beginning of double-digit inflation and unemployment. Only heroic efforts will avert a depression. Gasoline will be $4 a gallon even in low-priced areas by next March and $6 a gallon within 3 years. Obama will not win a second term. I've been telling people for a while that he completely reminds me of Jimmy Carter. He speaks in nice-sounding platitudes of "solutions" to "problems". The solutions are all simplistic, even arrogant in their assumption that the previous administration were stupid concrete-heads not to understand the brilliance of the "solution". He also acts like he's better, more moral, more pure than everyone else -- not a politician but a spiritual leader, almost. And, his policies are all about having government intervene for the people.
I was in my 20s in the 70s. It really, really stunk. You couldn't buy a house or a car because interest rates were almost 20%. Taxes were sky-high. Our enemies were laughing at us, taking hostages, pushing us around. The Soviets decided it was OK to invade Afghanistan, knowing we wouldn't do anything (therefore laying the seeds, ironically, for 9/11). He screwed up the military so bad that they couldn't even fly helicopters through the desert to rescue POWs. Then the stupid attacks on oil companies and the ham-handed attempts to fix gas prices caused incredible shortages -- it was a lot of work and time just to get enough gas to go to work. Jimmy's response was to put on a sweater (to show how we should bundle up to save on heating costs), go on national TV, and tell us the only thing wrong was that we had a "crisis of confidence" and if we would just pick up our chins and smile confidently everything would be OK.
Out goes Jimmy, in comes Ronnie, kicks the Arabs around, sets the oil free, lowers taxes, frees the hostages, fixes the interest rates, and kicks off one of the greates booms in history. Not to mention ends the Cold War and crushes the Soviet Union, after helping the Afghani kick them out of their country (which, also ironically, also led to 9/11). Ahhhhhhhh... sweet relief. | |
| 
sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Rogers Canadian Cable ISP Rogers has started injecting its own messages into HTTP data packets to bring up windows showing usage information. Just like the picture shown on this site a few months agow with an injected item onto a Google page.
While it's harmless enough for now, but what if Rogers decides it wants to inject its own advertising next, or inject other companies advertising to make more lucrative money.
The portal service is proving to be not very money making (after all @home tried with Excite and overspent itself into the explosion!) but this is better than portals, since you can inject this into ANY page! | |
| 
Killler Maxxx
@rr.com
| What cookie from where ? I'm curious to know how they can get their cookie into your computer. Cookies are put on your computer by the web pages you open in your browser. If they are forging cookies and injecting them into into the traffic stream from the pages you visit, I can see where there are real problems. If not, then what is the big stink about ? If the web pages that you visit are co-operating with these advertisers, then guess what, you are already being tracked anyway. Nothing new going on here. | |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| Re: What cookie from where ? The issue is that the sites are NOT in collusion with the ISP, the ISP is looking at your data before it gets to its destination, and then looking at it again before it comes back to you.
And you get the opt out cookie by visiting the opt out site from the ISP (as far as I understand). | |
| | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| I'm going out on a limb here because I don't really know 100%, so if anyone actually knows how this works, please chime in.
That given, I think that how it works is not with cookies at all. It looks at your traffic and deduces in some way what kinds of things you are interested in buying, what web sites you frequent, and what your demographic is. This information (stripped of anything that could identify you personally) is then sold to advertisers, who use it to target you with advertising that you will (presumably) respond to more often than if they picked you randomly.
The cookies only come in if you opt out. The opt-out decision is captured in a cookie, so the system can remove you from tracking (or at least from reporting information). | |
| hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| Op-in could be a good thing This program could be a good thing if they allowed opt-in or a service plan of slower speeds maybe their "lite" packages. Allow this on those plans and get the service at that price. or a faster speed with these ads. It could be a good thing to gain more market share. | |
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DR333
@fastwebserver.de
| There is no Opt-Out. There is no way to opt-out period. The Opt-Out procedure just sets a cookie. Your traffic still passes through the spy-box, and code is still injected. The only way to opt out if all of your traffic completely bypasses the 'box' that is doing the snooping. That could only be done by the ISP you use. Don't be fooled by the 'opt-out' lies. | |
| | MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: There is no Opt-Out. said by DR333 :
There is no way to opt-out period. The Opt-Out procedure just sets a cookie. Your traffic still passes through the spy-box, and code is still injected. The only way to opt out if all of your traffic completely bypasses the 'box' that is doing the snooping. That could only be done by the ISP you use. Don't be fooled by the 'opt-out' lies.
So what does the cookie do, then? | |
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DR333
@fh-reutlingen.de
| Re: There is no Opt-Out. The cookie that is set tells the NebuAd servers, which are at faireagle.com, that you "opted out". Even after you have "opted out", when you visit a site that gets modified by NebuAd (like a search engine) it still adds code to the page, connects to the off site ad-server, and then reads the cookie. So even though at that point it's not delivering 'targeted' ads anymore, it is still monitoring your traffic, modifying the web page and inserting code, and a horrible invasion of privacy. For sites where it's not inserting code, it still is passing your traffic through the NebuAd monitoring box. That is why I say there is no Opt Out.
If you clear your cookies, guess what...you are 'opted' back in!
The lies that NebuAd has told about it not even seeing the IP address also need to stop. Of course they see that. Their box is placed at a location at the ISP where all traffic goes through it, and the IP addresses are easily seen. And since it inserts content which is hosted on their server off site, they can see which IP address is grabbing that content (just like any webserver can). And even if they did not track a person based on the IP address, the web bugs that get inserted by the nebuad script for 3rd party advertising "partners" of nebuad certainly do see your IP address and record it.
Nebuad is being deliberately misleading, and I trust that once this becomes a bigger thing out here in the US, it will blow up much like Phorm did in Europe, and make a lot of people who use ISPs who have partnered with Nebuad Very unhappy. | |
| CableDaddy3
join:2005-03-23
Grayling, MI | It isn't gonna change so do something about it If it's a big deal change DNS servers. Or use software like Tor to hide your location and browsing habits. The information they get from you would be useless and couldn't be targeted back to you because they couldn't trace you. | |
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DR333
@newcastleone.net
| Re: It isn't gonna change so do something about it said by CableDaddy3 :If it's a big deal change DNS servers. Or use software like Tor to hide your location and browsing habits. The information they get from you would be useless and couldn't be targeted back to you because they couldn't trace you. Tor is definitely a good idea, but the problem still exists that all of your traffic is going through the NebuAd box. Keep that in mind..while they say they do not look at any traffic other than port 80, it ALL goes through that box. Do you really want to trust a company who has execs who used to work for the Gator Advertising Information Network? In addition to all of the traffic passing through that box, any web forms that you fill out that are submitted would over port 80, which they do admit to monitoring. If any of those had personal information in them.... well you get the idea. | |
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