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 | mlundin
join:2001-03-27
Mishawaka, IN | Filibusters - our last remaining hope I wish the Senate would filibuster more so that fewer stupid ideas like this one get mindlessly pushed after a bunch of corporate donations. | |
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| | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Re: Filibusters - our last remaining hope The problem is that the Senate has their hands in the cookie jar with everyone else. They're bought and paid for. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Filibusters - our last remaining hope Time to get rid of the cookie jar.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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| | lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21
Everett, WA
| Agreed. It allows a bit of sanity to return to a government largely run by corporations with millions of dollars to give away in "campaign contributions".
"You too can own your own US senator for the low, low price of 1.7 million dollars a year!" | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
| Re: Filibusters - our last remaining hope said by lordofwhee  :Agreed. It allows a bit of sanity to return to a government largely run by corporations with millions of dollars to give away in "campaign contributions". "You too can own your own US senator for the low, low price of 1.7 million dollars a year!" are you speaking of the telcos...or dodd himself who received sweetheart deals from countrywide.
»www.portfolio.com/news-markets/t···-Scandal | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness You're ignoring that the Senate was meant to be a slower, more deliberative body than the populist House. They're different for a good reason. | |
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sanfranson
Norm, The Enourmous Basset
Premium
join:2001-02-08
San Francisco, CA
 ·SONIC.NET
·AT&T Yahoo
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Dear vpoko,
Folks forget that until 1913, U.S. senators were elected by the legislatures of each state. The 17th Amendment changed that. The reason for the amendment was that most of the senators were millionaires. They had simply bought their office from the legislatures. That has changed in that now most senators owe their office to their campaign contributors. Since the richest folks in the United States are the corporations, (constructive persons), they owe them to corporate boards of directors.
However, the effect of corporate election of senators is obvious in corporations' current activity. They do as they please without fear of government sanction. The "class action" was born of government's failure to protect citizens from corporate avarice.
So, since corporations control the senate, if one is not a corporation, its a good thing that the filibuster still exists.
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Cordially,
SANFRANSON | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness I agree, but did you mean to direct that to me? I was stating my support for filibusters. | |
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| deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA
 ·Cox HSI
| Why is the Administration and the Telecos pushing so hard for this "Immunity"? If neither did anything wrong why worry?
Money? I don't seriously believe that it would be a problem ESPECIALLY if they have done nothing wrong.
The way they are acting though - it almost seems like they are trying to cover something up... almost as if, they did something wrong and don't want it to become public. Weird that. | |
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| | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Immunity equals dollars.
Friends saving friends from huge losses. | |
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jt45
@comcast.net | they did do something wrong. they were wire tapping without a warrent. | |
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| | | deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA
·Cox HSI
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Hey, I was trying to be ironic and sassy! 
Plain and simple though, as you said - they (meaning the current administration and the telecoms) did something wrong by doing wiretaps without warrants. They BROKE THE LAW basically.
As it has already been mentioned - the way that Congress seems to vote depends mostly on who is paying them at the time. | |
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| | | | ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness and the point most often left out is that they may have been doing it prior to 9/11/01, which defeats the argument that it was done to keep us safe after the attack. If big corporations didn't wield so much power these days, then I would probably lean toward letting them off the hook. To hold them liable is like going after the drug user instead of the pusher. But with corporate power and abuse the way it is today, and the clear shift into fascism, I have less problem with leaving the complicit telecoms on the hook. Qwest said "no", the others could have also. But, then again, their CEOs would have also ended up in federal prison if they didn't cave, so what are you gonna do? | |
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idjk
@embarqhsd.net
 from:
TK Junk Mail
| When the guys in black suits showed up and said tap that line -we did, I don't know what went on at exec lvl of company but in the trenches you don't ask questions with those guys.
NO worries if you did nothing wrong ?? that won't stop a John Edwards want-t-be from bring suit in the hope of a big settlement. | |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness When the guys in black suits show up saying "tap that line" you're supposed to say "wheres your warrant?" You didn't, and now your bosses are in deep shit.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
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| | | | | FAQFixer
Premium
join:2004-06-28
Powder Springs, GA | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Warrants are never used to tap any communications. Warrantless Wiretaps" is a silly buzz phrase created by the press that works well on the uneducated masses. It obviously worked as intended. | |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs: | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Care to expound? | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | What is a "John Edwards want-t-be"? | |
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| | | amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
 ·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
| said by jt45 :
they did do something wrong. they were wire tapping without a warrent.
You need to stop listening to the mind-numbing chants from EFF. The law provides for telcos to hand over data to the government with very minimal requirements. 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) permits it merely if the AG certifies that a warrant isn't necessary. U.S.C. 2702(a)(3) & (c) also allows it, and was amended in 2006 to reduce "reasonable belief" of "imminent danger" to merely "good faith belief" of "danger" (not imminent).
The only thing this "compromise" does is restate 2511. If you guys don't like the law, get it changed.
See: »www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html···00-.html
»www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html···00-.html
Mark | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
·Speakeasy
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness Your claim has been refuted a few times on this site yet you constantly repeat it. Learning much from this administration!
However, I'm not as upset with this bill as I was with past ones. I agree, in principle, that any entity will have a tough time refuting the FedGov's request in such situations. If they have a signed statement for the administration saying they "won't get in trouble", maybe they get a pass.
BUT that means that this administration DAMN WELL better sit for their crimes. They do not have the authority, IMO, to give any entity such a waiver.
KM | |
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| | | | | amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by KoolMoe :They do not have the authority, IMO, to give any entity such a waiver. Sure, if you keep ignoring 18 USC 2511.
Mark | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
·Comcast
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness 18 USC 2511 shields the carriers from criminal prosecution for disclosing a private communication. It doesn't shield the phone companies in civil court from their contractual obligations with their customers to protect information unless disclosure is required by a court order. | |
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| | | | | | | amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by vpoko :18 USC 2511 shields the carriers from criminal prosecution for disclosing a private communication. Did you even bother reading it?
No cause of action shall lie in any court against any provider of wire or electronic communication service, its officers, employees, or agents, landlord, custodian, or other specified person for providing information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with the terms of a court order or certification under this chapter Mark | |
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| | | | | | | | wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by amigo_boy :said by vpoko :18 USC 2511 shields the carriers from criminal prosecution for disclosing a private communication. Did you even bother reading it? No cause of action shall lie in any court against any provider of wire or electronic communication service, its officers, employees, or agents, landlord, custodian, or other specified person for providing information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with the terms of a court order or certification under this chapter Mark If it were that clear cut, the defendants could have asked for and gotten summary judgement in their favor. As a matter of law, there would be no way for the plaintiffs to prevail. Apparently either the telco attorneys suck (unlikely) or there is more to this than you are willing to see, as it does not fit your preconceived position.
I do have to give you some credit, though. Unlike TK Junk Mail, you at least engage in discussion, rather than hit and run. I respect that, even though I have no respect whatsoever for your position.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
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| | | | | | | | | amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
edit:
June 25th, @07:08PM
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by wierdo :If it were that clear cut, the defendants could have asked for and gotten summary judgement in their favor. Initially the government tried to quash the suits by claiming state secrets. The problem was they'd already discussed the program on Sunday Morning pundit shows.
Someone suggested earlier in this thread that the "compromise" may be an intentional plan to trap the President. That sounds plausible to me. The administration didn't want any of this coming to light. And, it seems "someone" doesn't want the telcos to do exactly what you suggest they could have done (ask for dismissal by showing their certification letters).
The compromise would force the issue. And, it would also force them to reveal whether they were operating under 2702 (belief of danger). What if the spooks disclosed to the telcos various details of attacks foiled, religious nuts captured, etc? To claim 2702, the telco would have to disclose all that. The compromise would force them to say they were operating without certification, but with "belief."
said by wierdo :I do have to give you some credit, though. Unlike TK Junk Mail, you at least engage in discussion, rather than hit and run. I respect that, even though I have no respect whatsoever for your position. Thanks. That means a lot to me -- coming from a self-styled freedom fighter.
EDIT: The above theory would also explain why 2702 was modified in 2006 to reduce "reasonable belief" of "imminent danger" to merely "good faith belief" of "danger."
Mark | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| said by wierdo :If it were that clear cut, the defendants could have asked for and gotten summary judgement in their favor. As a matter of law, there would be no way for the plaintiffs to prevail. Apparently either the telco attorneys suck (unlikely) or there is more to this than you are willing to see, as it does not fit your preconceived position. I do have to give you some credit, though. Unlike TK Junk Mail, you at least engage in discussion, rather than hit and run. I respect that, even though I have no respect whatsoever for your position. Wait until he starts throwing around the hyperbole and empty rhetoric. | |
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| wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. Given that it only takes 60 votes for cloture now, it's fair to say that if it's something important, a filibuster will be broken.
I think it was better back in the days when it took a supermajority to force cloture and there had to be continuous debate. It made for much better TV, and since it was impossible for the Senate to do any business at all with a filibuster ongoing, it was really and truly a weapon of last resort.
Either way, you're off the mark. If nothing else, the Senate rules are far superior in that they make it much harder to ram through bills with little to no discussion. It can obviously still happen, but it's not like the House where the leadership's word may as well be God.
In this particular case, I can be fairly certain that you hold the opinion you posted only because you're a shill for the immunity crowd.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word. | |
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hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12 | I wish astroturfing were a felony. I guess that's too much to wish for.  | |
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digitalfreak
Frodo failed. Bush has the ring
join:2005-12-09
49533
| said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. Of course your opinion would be totally different if you weren't on the side of the telcos. | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs: | Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness It will be...funny to see TK change his tune on filibusters if Obama is elected and Congress retains or increases its Democrat majority!
KM | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by KoolMoe :It will be...funny to see TK change his tune on filibusters if Obama is elected and Congress retains or increases its Democrat majority! KM Like I've said, as long as it's their team breaking the law, everything is OK. | |
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fatness
subtle
Janitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing
Host:
Earthlink DSL
TekSavvy
Forum Feature Requ..
Need Site Help?
Sports Chat
| said by KoolMoe :It will be...funny to see TK change his tune on filibusters if Obama is elected and Congress retains or increases its Democrat majority! KM A lot of people are going to do 180 degree turns in their views if the next president is from the other party. It will be fun to watch.
said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. Um, that's exactly what they're for, to avoid knee-jerk pandering.
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Female monkeys often utter loud, distinctive calls before, during or after sex.. | |
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| | EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | Would your opinion be different if they were filibustering a bill that would repeal a hypothetical pre-existing telco immunity? | |
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| Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. If you can't convince 218 house members and 60 senators (and 1 President) that your legislation is a good idea, maybe you ought to take it back to the drawing board.
Personally, I'd like to see the supermajority raised even higher. It would give legislators less opportunity to cause trouble like they are with this shameful trampling of the Constitution and corporate giveaway.
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"Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea." | |
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| | Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness And although it ought to be obvious to anyone who believes in freedom, here's a flagrant example of how your taxpayer dollars get spent when the government has unfettered access to spy on its citizens. You get petty functionaries like Hoover digging for dirt on Americans (and wasting taxpayer dollars and government resources—hear that conservatives?) just because they don't like what they say.
»www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/···_4207013
One quote, from a satirical piece Buchwald wrote in the '60s really stands out:
Buchwald reappeared on the bureau’s radar in 1961 when, in a satirical column, he claimed to have uncovered the “Orlov Plan.” Buchwald often created fictitious characters, and in this column said Soviet agent Serge Orlov revealed a plan to cripple the United States by using right-wing anti-communist groups to sow seeds of distrust in the nation.
“When I proposed the plan in Moscow the Kremlin thought I was crazy. But they figured they had nothing to lose. Well, you can see the results for yourself. The seeds of doubt about America are being planted by their own people and we’ve been making more progress in wrecking the U.S. Constitution in the last few years than my predecessors have been able to do since the Revolution,” Buchwald quoted “Orlov” as saying. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
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"Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea." | |
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DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:
| said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. Wow...just wow. You must have been sleeping through your courses on civics and/or political science. | |
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Yaco
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ
 ·Verizon FIOS
| said by TK Junk Mail :I wish the Senate would work like the House and drop this antiquated mechanism of foot-dragging and thwarting of the will of the majority. It allows a very small minority of legislators to deny a free and open vote on an issue. "Free and Open vote" Excuse me ... Is was Costly!!!, my freedom and your freedom PLUS alot of cold hard cash from the Telcos.. I for one applaud it!
Lee | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
·DSL EXTREME
edit:
June 25th, @05:32PM
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness And the American people do not want this legislation.
On a side note, in regards to the government wiretapping Americans
"When the Government tells you to do something, I think you all recognize, uh, that that is something that you need to do."
republican rep Kit Bonds. I think he's in the wrong country. | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness said by JakCrow :And the American people do not want this legislation. On a side note, in regards to the government wiretapping Americans
"When the Government tells you to do something, I think you all recognize, uh, that that is something that you need to do."
republican rep Kit Bonds. I think he's in the wrong country. Any time the government tells you to do something or that you NEED to do something, it's generally a good indication that you should be highly suspect of the need or the wisdom of doing that thing...
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
edit:
June 25th, @07:36PM
| »news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080625/ap_···eillance
An electronic surveillance bill has cleared an important hurdle in the Senate. A test vote on the measure Wednesday won the support of 80 senators who want to begin debate. Only 15 senators tried to kill the bill by blocking the debate.
The Senate is expected to vote on final passage by late Thursday. The House approved the bill last week. Here is how they voted:
»senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_···position
A NO vote meant they tried to kill the bill.
These are the Senators that are weak on defending America from terrorists. They are also the most left wing losers in the Senate. And to my great disgust, 2 are from NJ:
Biden (D-DE)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR) The great hope for the Democrats(Obama) in Nov threw his support to passage of the FISA bill. »blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trai···tio.html
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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See 8 replies to this post |
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| boober321
join:2003-07-15
Milwaukee, WI
·ViaTalk
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Way to go Senator Feingold! He's the most reputable and honest person in the Senate. He voted no on the Iraq war, and he was the ONLY senator that didn't give Bush a free pass on his Wipe You Ass with the Constitution Act... er I mean Patriot Act...
Makes me glad I supported him for re-election, and will continue to do so. | |
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footballdude
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
| Trap? My take on this is that they're trying to lay a trap for the President. They say they'll give telcos immunity if they can provide a piece of paper with the President's signature on it telling them to wiretap. They don't care at all about the telcos, they just want a piece of paper with the President's signature on it that they can 'leak' to the press. Then all the usual suspects will hold press conferences and call the President a criminal.
Makes me wonder if Dodd and Feingold got the memo?
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It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
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mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX | Follow the money Interesting... legislators who flip-flopped to be in favor of immunity had double the donations from the telcos.
I wonder how much it would cost to have the entire Senate perform the musical "Rent"? | |
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| pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Re: Follow the money Heh.
The thing is, a normal citizen would be thrown in jail and the key lost if we were to attempt said. AT&T and the other monopolies, well, that's just business. Favors for favors. | |
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| boober321
join:2003-07-15
Milwaukee, WI | And who do you propose play Mimi? Ain't none of 'em got the chops for that...  | |
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MrHappy316
Wish I had my tank
Premium
join:2003-01-02
Summerville, SC
·AT&T DSL Service
| Yes to Bailout, No to Immunity Isn't Senator Dodd the moron who |
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Dodd, Feingold To Fillibuster Telecom Immunity
Filibusters - a mechanism that has outlived its usefulness
