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story category Digital Switch Creating Broadcast Coverage Gaps
Test data suggests many users will fall out of range...
04:10PM Wednesday Sep 24 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: fcc · coverage · content
Tipped by MeanPeepsSuk See Profile
The FCC made Wilmington, North Carolina their Guinea pig ahead of February's digital TV transition, with area broadcasters cutting analog transmissions on September 9. According to the Associated Press, the FCC received 1,828 complaints (see their report), over half of those from people who say they can no longer view the channels they used to. Given that analog signal covers a broader area than digital, there's chunks of rural America that are going to be left in a lurch. Kevin Martin, you'll be happy to hear, says he's all over it:
Click for full size
It's not certain what — if anything — the FCC or broadcasters can do for these viewers, short of recommending that they buy a bigger antenna. Martin told members of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee Tuesday that a possible solution would be for broadcasters to erect special "repeater" antennas to expand their reach. "Our goal is to ensure that all viewers in the Wilmington area and the country have access to the same television signals that they did prior to the transition," he said.
About 13.4 million television households in the U.S. receive their programming over the air only, roughly twelve percent of all homes with TVs. Applying the Wilmington complaint rate nationally would result in 1.1 million calls to the FCC in the first five days after the cutover. FCC chief Kevin Martin says the cut over could reduce broadcast footprint for about 15 percent of television markets in the U.S, though the agency boss isn't particularly gifted at math or geography.

Consumer group Teletruth thinks the Wilmgington market is far too small to provide real world statistics on how many customers will be impacted. Their latest report highlights how many over-the-air viewers in Hunterdon County, New Jersey (technically part of the NYC viewing market) are losing NY and Philly broadcasts after installing DTV converter boxes. Asks the group: "How did the FCC and NTIA spend over $1 billion dollars and counting on the DTV campaign without actually testing the converter box and antenna configurations, especially in rural fringe areas?"

Related:
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  2. FCC's Adelstein Wants More DTV Testing
  3. Tuesday Evening Links
  4. Monday Evening Links
  5. Tuesday Morning Links
  6. Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
  7. USF: Uncle Sam's Blank check
  8. Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
Forums » Digital Switch Creating Broadcast Coverage Gaps
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dirtwarrior

join:2008-03-21

simply

A nightmare. rural places lol

MeanPeepsSuk
mmmMMMeaty

join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field

Re: simply

said by dirtwarrior See Profile :

A nightmare. rural places lol
Let me clarify to you what "rural places", or "rural fringe areas" (according to the FCC) are. ... Hunterdon County, NJ (which is cited in the article) happens to be just ~40 miles from New York City and Philadelphia.


voipdabbler

join:2006-04-27
Kalispell, MT

Don't laugh. Recent non-decinnial Census data (yes, they keep the shop open all the time and use commercial databases to produce interim reports on population trends, including migration, between the decinnial head counts) reflects that certain areas of the urban east coast are beginning to lose population while the rural west is seeing it's population increase. As inflation skyrockets, don't be surprised if the few jobs that remain in the US relocate to less expensive, non-urban areas.

TK Junk Mail
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Margate City, NJ
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edit:
September 24th, @04:18PM

Hawaii Senator panics over DTV conversion

»news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-100···1_3-0-20
At a hearing on the impending DTV transition Tuesday, Senator Daniel Inouye, chairman of the Commerce Committee, warned that the loss of analog over-the-air TV reception, occurring just 29 days into a new presidential administration, might spell trouble for a country already beset by the financial crisis.

"While federal agencies and industry have stepped up their efforts, I continue to be concerned that they are not fully prepared for the flood of coupon requests and calls that we can expect just before and after the transition," said the senator, a Democrat from Hawaii. "As the current administration winds down, both agencies must remain vigilant so that the next administration does not inherit a communications crisis."

Referring to test of the DTV switchover conducted two weeks ago, Inouye wasn't encouraged. "As the recent test in Wilmington, North Carolina, demonstrated, even with a Herculean investment of time and resources that will be impossible to replicate throughout the rest of the country, consumers made thousands of phone calls seeking help with various aspects of the transition. On a national level, this may translate to millions of calls. Unless more is done, February 17, and 18, and 19, will be very long days indeed."

FCC Chairman Dennis Martin, conversely, found some encouraging signs in the recent Wilmington test but agreed with Inouye that additional funding for education about the transition was still needed, calling for another $20 million.
Martin statement to Committee:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A1.pdf

Summary of calls by type of problem in the Wilmington test:
FCC_WILM_TEST.PDF 27763 bytes


FCC report on DTV conversion:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A2.pdf

The FCC report lays out lots of details on how many stations are yet to declare readiness and on the subject of analog vs digital coverage.

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SilverSurfer

join:2007-08-19

Rural General Suckitude

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by SilverSurfer See Profile :

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.
Why can't you use rabbit ears? I can pick up digital stations using a wire coat hanger with no degradation in quality. It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.

TK Junk Mail
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edit:
September 24th, @04:25PM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

said by SilverSurfer See Profile :

I don't know which is worse in rural areas...the fact that the phone lines are and have always been for shit, or, the fact that you can't even use good ol' rabbit ears to pick up any TV signals anymore.
Why can't you use rabbit ears? I can pick up digital stations using a wire coat hanger with no degradation in quality. It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.
The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked.

This map of the coverage in the Wilmington test shows how the analog transmission had a farther reach. The digital coverage was helped by overlapping digital signals from nearby affiliate stations on the same network. But the area in orange basically lost all NBC coverage in the switch.
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···89A4.pdf



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jmn1207
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edit:
September 24th, @04:43PM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.

I wonder how this will impact satellite TV and local channel distribution. In areas where local networks were not included with DirectTV or Dish, you had to live outside the range of the local analog signal's reach to be eligible to get generic network broadcasts piped to your satellite receiver. I suppose the distance requirements will have to be adjusted accordingly.

TK Junk Mail
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
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jmn1207
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Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

And here I thought the FCC had conducted tests to ensure that the coverage would not be diminished when the switch to digital was made.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
Hopefully there won't be any situations that might cause one signal to bleed over the top of another. If that is even possible with this type of signal. I know with my radio stations I can make a mix of Mexican Radio meets Contemporary Jazz. This occurs late in the evening and I call this music style, Contexican Jazzio.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
·Comcast

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach(similar to the analog coverage) in order to cover areas like those on the map in orange.
If I recall correctly, many stations whose frequency lies within the VHF range will actually be broadcasting with less power to prevent interference with FM stations. Plus they don't pass through physical objects (walls for example) as well as UHF frequencies.

Many of those stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF frequency range, but will switch to VHF after Feb 17, 2009.

For example Philadelphia's KWY-DT (CBS) is currently broadcasting on a UHF frequency (don't have it in front of me at the moment), but will switch to channel 3 after the switchover. That means people who can receive the channel now, might not be able to get it after the transition.

See »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=823166

TK Junk Mail
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edit:
September 24th, @05:43PM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by Morac See Profile :

Many of those stations are currently broadcasting in the UHF frequency range, but will switch to VHF after Feb 17, 2009.

For example Philadelphia's KWY-DT (CBS) is currently broadcasting on a UHF frequency (don't have it in front of me at the moment), but will switch to channel 3 after the switchover. That means people who can receive the channel now, might not be able to get it after the transition.

See »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=823166
Thanks for link. After looking at that thread I came across this link that will allow anyone to stay on top of the OTA digital plans and follow thru.

»www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

And if you do a zip code search and keep the mileage option to 40, you should be able to see what is/will be available digitally on 2/17/2009 in your area.

»www.rabbitears.info/search.php

I have tested for my area and can get all the stations listed with rabbit ears and a converter box up to about 35 miles away.

Here is an example of what is available when using search and listing tools:
»www.rabbitears.info/search.php?r···miles=40

»www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service···000.html

»fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe···um=61111

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StudioTech
More clear QAM channels, please

join:2001-10-10
Edison, NJ
Actually, in Philly, it's WPVI-DT (the ABC station) that's moving their digital signal back to VHF-Lo, not KYW-DT.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
·Comcast


edit:
September 25th, @10:49AM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by StudioTech See Profile :

Actually, in Philly, it's WPVI-DT (the ABC station) that's moving their digital signal back to VHF-Lo, not KYW-DT.
Oops, you're right. That's actually worse since WPVI-DT doesn't come in very well currently. I shudder to think of what it will be like after the switchover.
older dog
Premium
join:2005-06-09
Norwich, NY
The last I read for this area the FCC had cut the allowable transmit power to prevent interference to stations in the Midwest.
Creating the problem of no receivable stations even with a large fringe antenna.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Rural General Suckitude

They should have made USA DTV be encoded in CDMA.

CoxCable4
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone

join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
·RoadRunner Cable

that would help increase bandwidth efficiency so you could get a better picture or sound, but not raw signal strength.

cell phones work because there are towers all over the place. If you paid $50/mo for tv service you could have similar land based radio coverage.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL


edit:
September 25th, @09:15AM

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach
I agree there will be likely be changes allowed after Feb 2009 as stations/customers get some real world DTV experience. The real test will not be Feb 18, 2009 but spring of 2009 when trees leaf out. Folks that had good TV reception in winter may lose it in summer.

Currently with simulcasting of analog and digital TV bands things are pretty crowded. After analog goes dark, even with loss of channels 52-69, band will likely be less congested in most regions. That means interference will be less of a problem making it viable to modify signal strength.

Something many people may not be aware of is customer signal strength is a combination of many factors: 1) Transmit power, 2) Antenna gain, 3) Distance 4) Terrain 5) Multipath and other impairments.

We tend to think of TV Stations as being onmidirectional – transmitting equal signal in all directions but that is rarely the case. Stations design antenna to have difference gain in different directions. It is a lot more cost effective to double receive signal strength (3 dB change) by tweaking antenna radiation pattern to change Effective Radiated Power (ERP) then to double transmit power. There are limits to this of course but it is not just a matter of cranking up transmit power with commensurate increase in utility bill.

/tom
jay_rm

join:2002-04-12
Netville
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked.
In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.

Maybe in some markets the DTV stations are running at reduced power before the transition date ? ? ?

This exact same argument was put forth back in the good 'ol analog cellular days. "My digital phone cuts out all of a sudden where I used to have analog coverage !" Truth be told, the analog coverage was so static-ridden and broken up it would take an experienced intercept operator to get any intel out of it "What ? What ?? Say that again - YOU'RE WHAT... ?!?!?!!?"

Welcome to the Digital Communications Revolution - where it either works or it doesn't.
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

Some stations are running at reduced power right now. Some aren't even broadcasting...
systems2000
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Cyberspace
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said by jay_rm See Profile :

In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.
This could very well be caused by different Multi-Paths between the different frequencies the analog and digital are transmitting on.
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It's not even just as simple as you either get it or you don't, all of the tv channels I get that are digital are choppy if I don't have the antenna adjusted just right for each channel I watch I have to constantly adjust my rabbit ears or the digital channels break up into little squares and then the screen freezes for minutes at a time, then picks up the signal again for a minute or two then cuts back out. atleast with analog you could still watch the show with out interuptions even though the picture might be a little fuzzy.

Oleg
Bellsouth Fastaccess
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Birmingham, AL
This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by Oleg See Profile :

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
No, 12% do not, according to what is being reported.
Lineage

join:2006-10-19
USA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

That's the same percentage of people who (supposedly) still have dialup, but no one caters to that class.

Why should this be any different just because it's TV?

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by Lineage See Profile :

That's the same percentage of people who (supposedly) still have dialup, but no one caters to that class.

Why should this be any different just because it's TV?
Well, we could at least get a crummy, snowy reception of Jeopardy if Uncle Bill, with a metal plate in his head, sat on the love seat near the window. It was something, just like dial up. Better than nothing at all, perhaps, or maybe losing TV is the best thing that will ever happen. With no TV, one might expect to see increasing levels of reading comprehension in those areas.

BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Night-Owl

join:2007-01-11

said by Lineage See Profile :

That's the same percentage of people... ...but no one caters to that class.

Hasn't stopped Apple.
utahluge

join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Hasn't stopped Apple.
Apple? Arn't those long gone / dead?

tschmidt
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join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
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said by Lineage See Profile :

That's the same percentage of people who ... have dialup, but no one caters to that class.
An analogy would be if dialup was being discontinued and you did not have broadband access you are no longer able to access the Internet.

/tom

tschmidt
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Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL

said by Oleg See Profile :

everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
As jmn1207 See Profile posted about 12% of us rely on over the air transmission.

Conversion to DTV is actually increasing number of people using over the air antennas. OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage. In addition in these poor economic times I'd be willing to bet some folk are going back to OTA to save money.

/tom

TK Junk Mail
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by tschmidt See Profile :

OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage.
That is not always true as these 2 Philadelphia, PA channels indicate. Check out the video bitrate column.

CBS isn't compressing and has only 1 digital channel to use their bandwidth.



But ABC cut up its bandwidth to squeeze in more sub channels.


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tschmidt
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join:2000-11-12
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Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

That is not always true as these 2 Philadelphia, PA channels indicate.
Sorry, guess I was not clear. Stations can and often do broadcast multiple sub-channels.

What I meant was programs broadcast over the air are often recompressed by Cable and Sat providers to squeeze more channels into their channel capacity reducing quality compared to what one gets with OTA.

/tom

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
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8.6mbps MPEG-2? Yuck!

Problem is, cable or sat is going to use WPVI's 8.6mbps ABC broadcast as their source. So no matter where you go, it's going to, at best, be that same 8.6mbps crappy quality, perhaps with even more artifacts introduced if it's transcoded to MPEG-4 or pushed through a cable company compressor to guarantee WPVI doesn't change their mind and up the data rate. It's unlikely that TV providers are going to go through the trouble to get their encoding equipment installed at a point prior to being compressed for OTA transmission.

You have, however, perfectly illustrated why I cringe when people say OTA is superior because it's "uncompressed". As you've shown it may be compressed quite severely! Many cable systems just remux the same quality data onto a QAM stream.

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edit:
September 24th, @08:35PM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by djrobx See Profile :

I cringe when people say OTA is superior because it's "uncompressed".
Agree, most people don't realize an uncompressed 1080i or 720p raw bit stream is over a Gigabit per second. Lossy compression is used to reduce it to around 20 mbps.

Compression can be used to reduced data rate to anything desired. However, greater the level of compression the poorer the image/motion quality.

/tom
RayW
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Layton, UT
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said by tschmidt See Profile :

Conversion to DTV is actually increasing number of people using over the air antennas. OTA typically has better picture quality then Cable or sat because it is not recompressed to reduce bandwidth usage. In addition in these poor economic times I'd be willing to bet some folk are going back to OTA to save money.

/tom
My neighbor put up an outside antenna just for that reason, much better signal than Dish or Comcast, but he kept Dish for the extra programming he gets.

We and a few of our neighbors who have gotten the boxes have seen a bit better signal on the digital modes than with the analog. But the digital modes do have some odd display formats (vertical letter box vice horizontal?), but that may just be the wife not wanting to adjust for the different modes with the control. (caveat: I do not watch TV very much, very little worth watching any more)
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wcnghj

join:2008-05-01
I would switch to DTV if we could get signal. I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away.

tschmidt
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join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by wcnghj See Profile :

I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away.
70 miles may require Herculean effort, unless you or transmitter are very high.

Check out the TVfool site and see what estimated signal strength is. If estimated signal is better then about -110 dBm you have a chance. Try modeling at different heights. But putting up a tower is expensive. At that distance weather will be a factor so no matter how good the antenna you may not be able to get good signal 24/7/365.

Good Luck

/tom

mr_slick

join:2003-05-22
Lynnwood, WA

I don't-- OTA all the way!

I do have FiOS Internet however

**actually i havent had cable for about 15 years once i discovered the content choices over the air, on dvds and via the internet are far superior to paying for cable

i always just surfed through the channels with cable anyways (hoping to find something good!)

--i would however reconsider cable if they offered an al-a-cart service of just a few channels (like 2 or 3!)
thecptrgod

join:2008-04-03
Madison, WI


edit:
September 25th, @01:37AM

said by Oleg See Profile :

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
Um.. not everyone. I still watch TV over-the-air with rabbit ears. Oh and I'm IN Madison and still have problems with the DTVs here. (Approx. 10 miles from the 15/57 tower and approx. 12 from the "Supertower.")

-Adam

Mactron
el Camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv

said by Oleg See Profile :

This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway.
This These days everyone has YOU have digital cable or satellite anyway.

Corrected. Lucky you...
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MeanPeepsSuk
mmmMMMeaty

join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

It's digital, so you either get it or you don't. It's not like the analog signals that would vary in quality depending on the strength. Rabbit ears will work just fine.
In the case of the testers in Hunterdon County, NJ (~40 miles to NYC and Philly), it was "You don't". The signal strength is just not enough with digital where there once was with analog. For these testers, there was 100% loss of all currently served broadcast channels (2-13).

We're not talking rabbit ears either... Roof antennas only brought in new non-English channels instead. One tester went as far as to head over to radio shack for help, and found out he had to purchase an amplifier to supplement his roof antenna too.

Not directed at you, but to rant on... The sad reality is, as it is now, is that people would have to shell out $300 for roof antenna if they don't have one... and an amp for $?, not to mention the cost of the converter (even with 1 coupon).. While some may say, switch to something else... That is not the point here. Broadcast TV is supposed to be free to masses. Should people buy roof antennas and amps for the portable TVs? I know I'd miss mine in the garage that I also take camping.

If the FCC can't handle DTV in a metro-NYC area by calling it "rural fringe", what's going to happen in all areas that isn't within 35 miles of a tower? A coupon for 1 converter isn't going to do it.

See 29 replies to this post

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA
Reston isn't even close to being Rural.
Try that in Culpepper Va.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Rural General Suckitude

said by grydlok See Profile :

Reston isn't even close to being Rural.
Try that in Culpepper Va.
Oh I know, this is a suburb of DC. I don't have any issues, in fact, I use Comcast AND have Verizon FiOS available here, too.

grydlok

join:2004-01-06
Richmond, VA

edit:
September 24th, @08:31PM

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Yeah but telling somebody you have no problems what so ever picking up OTA channels with a set a coat hanger is a joke. You are like 20 miles from the towers.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA

Re: Rural General Suckitude

Yes, a joke.