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story category DSL Vs. Carrier Pigeon
South African monopoly versus IP over avian transport?
03:35PM Tuesday Sep 08 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: competition · business · alternatives · bandwidth · telco · world · networking · Oddities · consumers
Slashdot directs our attention to some small business customers of a South African ISP Telkom (aka "Hellcom"), who were so annoyed by the sluggish DSL service of the carrier while transferring 100MB files that they decided to see if carrier pigeon would be any faster. Judging from these two blog posts, early trials do suggest that carrier pigeon is faster than a lumbering DSL monopoly, but the official race occurs tomorrow. From a letter circulating by the race coordinators:
Basically we will be flying a pigeon with a 4GB micro SD card from Howick to our central site in Hillcrest. We did a dry run yesterday. Here is the stats: Pigeon took 48 minutes to deliver the data. ADSL is still downloading...We spend +/- R 45000 a month just on rental for these lines. If we moved to the Avian Carrier Network we will be saving a whopping R 35 000 a month.
IP Over Avian Carriers (RFC2549) has been a network nerd joke for many years, so it's nice to see someone put the theory into real world application. While most cable and DSL carriers here in the States should be able to beat their avian counterparts, we're home to a few satellite broadband operators our uncapped, un-"fapped" or otherwise unhindered feathered friends might give a run for their money.

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Forums » DSL Vs. Carrier Pigeon
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs:

Brilliant!

That article made my day.
permalink · 2009-09-08 15:44:21 · Reply to this

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

Hmmm....

OMG This Lag is terrible!
permalink · 2009-09-08 15:46:19 · Reply to this

Brazbit
Randomness Personified
Premium
join:2003-10-22
Port Orchard, WA

Re: But damn, that Latency would be a B*ITCH :D

Click, Wait, Woosh - Not just for satellite ISPs anymore.
permalink · 2009-09-08 15:50:22 · Reply to this

milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H2Z
·TekSavvy Solutions..

 It's not as bad as you think. A single packet can be 4 GB in size according to the proposed model. So you only need to send a single packet (pigeon) to your destination.

Of course, there's no guarantee the packet won't become someone's lunch.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:51:08 · Reply to this

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
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1 edit		 Yeah, so you could play Chess (1 move at a time) via Avian Carrier Protocol but I wouldn't want to try to play FPS with it

However it would be a valid way to Download DVD's and MP3's without the RIAA packet snooping
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:26:27 · Reply to this

Al3sinth
Trippin'
Premium
join:2003-07-08
Charleston, WV
clubs:

Try Games :P

Man... Imagine playing some FPS using this.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:04:26 · Reply to this

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink

Re: Try Games :P

said by Al3sinth See Profile :

Man... Imagine playing some FPS using this.
Back in the day, I used to play boardgames (Stalingrad, Afrika Korps, etc.) by mail. Took way less time than actually fighting the battles.
--
Don't bite me, Bro!
permalink · 2009-09-08 19:47:05 · Reply to this

R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON

LMAO!!

This is too funny! Specially enjoyed the RFC reference!
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:05:53 · Reply to this
decx
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Vancouver, BC
1 edit

Re: LMAO!!

Does that mean Teksavvy would implement an IPoAC based solution if Bell does implement UBB billing?
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:46:24 · Reply to this

R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON

Re: LMAO!!

LOL
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:49:13 · Reply to this

milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H2Z

Re: LMAO!!

Who's going to clean up all the packet "droppings?"
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:52:09 · Reply to this

R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON

Re: LMAO!!

Hopefully the network isn't daisy chained like the old coax stuff cuz, if so, someone's going to get crapped on for sure!
permalink · 2009-09-08 19:07:31 · Reply to this

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
said by R0CKY See Profile :

This is too funny! Specially enjoyed the RFC reference!
Of course the referenced RFC was an enhancement added QoS considerations to the original RFC1149. Check out that original RFC. Also, there was an actual implementation of the RFC done in 2001 (see »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFC_1149#R···entation) to get some speed metrics.
permalink · 2009-09-08 21:56:02 · Print · Reply to this

R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON

Re: LMAO!!

Hehe....
permalink · 2009-09-08 22:42:42 · Reply to this
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

What about high density cards?

With 8,16,32GB cards getting well into the affordable range(8GB cards starting below $13) you could run a similiar test with DSL on a 4GB ISO here in the US and the pigeon would at the very least be competitive.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:15:05 · Reply to this

thender
crackberry storms

join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FIOS

Re: What about high density cards?

Cable, while lacking the long term potential of fiber, at the very least can compete for the time being.

Resdiential ADSL typically goes up to 88 KBps upstream then stops.. That's if you're even getting that much. That's over an hour for a 350 MB file.

As time goes on and we expect to do more serious things with the internet, 88 KBps is a joke.
--
Macbook repair in NYC
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:07:33 · Reply to this

mod_wastrel

join:2008-03-28

"Channel-bonding"?

Do they offer carrier-bonding? 10 birds per trip - 10x speed? (Just keep them away from the statues.)
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:15:33 · Reply to this
AstroBoy

join:2008-08-08
Parkville, MD

Re: "Channel-bonding"?

said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

Do they offer carrier-bonding? 10 birds per trip - 10x speed? (Just keep them away from the statues.)
Use something like RAID5. 9 birds with data, 1 bird with parity. Can loose 1 bird without data loss.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:39:02 · Reply to this
joker5656

join:2006-06-23
Dallas, GA

Re: "Channel-bonding"?

Was thinking the same thing
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:55:47 · Reply to this
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: "Channel-bonding"?

you might want raid 6 on that setup or even raid 50
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:23:57 · Reply to this

mod_wastrel

join:2008-03-28		 I suddenly have an image of that CG movie Valiant in my head.
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:29:02 · Reply to this
InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Videotron
said by AstroBoy See Profile :

Use something like RAID5. 9 birds with data, 1 bird with parity. Can loose 1 bird without data loss.
Actually, the best implementation (if you are not too concerned about incuring maybe 20 minutes extra latency) would be to use FEC so you could send a stream of pigeon and still be able to reconstruct the stream as long as at least four out of any five consecutive pigeons (4:5 coding) make it through. Once your avian pipeline is full, you can have more steady throughput with fewer pigeons. If you launch one pigeon every 5 minutes, your latency is increased by 20 minutes compared to sending all your RAID5-coded pigeons out at the same time.

For better reliability, you can use 4:7 coding at the cost of 10 more minutes in latency (30m total) so you can now afford to lose almost half (3 out of every 7) of your pigeons.
permalink · 2009-09-10 14:56:20 · Print · Reply to this
neufuse

join:2006-12-06
Indiana, PA

turn based

could play turn based games like civilization and chess this way hehe sent "packets" of data back and forth showing the moves
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:23:26 · Reply to this
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
·Comcast
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·magicjack.com
·BeeCreek Communica..
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Sneakernet strikes back

Seriously, there are some instances in which the US postal system is both faster and cheaper than delivering data over wireless (or even wires). Which is patently ridiculous.

As the poster above said, 32GB MicroSDXC cards could mean that IP over Avian Carrier could be significantly higher-throughput than the other options, though latency is a killer.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:23:57 · Reply to this
bn1221

join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY

Re: Sneakernet strikes back

I can move 250GB compressed data tape (400GB actual) across the cost in 3 days with Fedex. I'd need a very fat pipe to compete with that....
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:34:19 · Reply to this
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO

Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Meh, you can pretty easily do that with a 10 Mbps upload conection.

Problem is, that's one expensive onnection in most places.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:42:34 · Reply to this
bn1221

join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Yes, you can, in theory. But you need 10Mbit at each end. Cable and DSL isn't up to snuff, and while FiOS would be up to it a 250GB tarball transferring flawlessly is asking a lot for reality

I have 2 T1s to each site. Add in normal traffic and VPN overhead and I think you can see my point

I laugh when people try to back up 1TB NAS boxes to Mozy on there 768Kb home DSL lines
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:46:50 · Print · Reply to this
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
·Comcast
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·BeeCreek Communica..
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Re: Sneakernet strikes back

Heh, I upgraded my 'net connection to 50/10 and pushed 200+ GB to the cloud in four or five days, not working overnight.

Though DOCSIS 1.1 and anything but super-low-distance VDSL2 ain't gonna give you those speeds.

I like my 5 Mbps up connection, though I'd much rather have 10 Mbps symmetric than 22/5.
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:32:50 · Reply to this

xyar
Premium
join:2001-06-21
Portland, OR

 Shouldn't be expensive. Our 10 mbps up/down Internet connection (over an OC12 SONET ring) is quite reasonable. We also have a 100 mbit WAN and two T1s going over that fiber (T1s for the phone system).

Guess it just depends on where you are.
--
One geek to rule them all!
permalink · 2009-09-09 16:09:55 · Reply to this

ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs:

Cost?

Now I just need to find a carrier pigeon service in my neighborhood. See if there's any money to be had.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:28:13 · Reply to this

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA

Windows Crashes Network Traffic

We tried this in a clean Windows environment and experienced numerous, fatal crashes.
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:28:19 · Reply to this

milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H2Z

Re: Windows Crashes Network Traffic

LOL! (and yuck!)
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:53:47 · Reply to this
j_on_fire

join:2005-02-24
canada		 Haha now that was awesome!
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:29:08 · Reply to this

xyar
Premium
join:2001-06-21
Portland, OR		 That's the funnies thing I've read all week!
--
One geek to rule them all!
permalink · 2009-09-09 16:11:21 · Reply to this
AstroBoy

join:2008-08-08
Parkville, MD

collisions!

I heard of packet collisions, but watch out for those plains!
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:34:48 · Reply to this
travelguy

join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM

9 Track

Way back in my datacenter operator days, we used to have a say "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a box of tapes in the back of a station wagon."

Still applies today...
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:47:04 · Reply to this

sivran
Long Live The Suite
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Arlington, TX
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: 9 Track

Even moreso, now that we've updated "tapes" to "hard drives" and "station wagon" to "SUV."

Latency is pretty killer though. Ain't gonna play no deathmatches on IP-over-roadway, no sir.
--
In dadkins' memory, Think outside the Fox...
permalink · 2009-09-08 16:55:05 · Reply to this
Necronomikro

join:2005-09-01

Re: 9 Track

said by sivran See Profile :

Even moreso, now that we've updated "tapes" to "hard drives" and "station wagon" to "SUV."

Latency is pretty killer though. Ain't gonna play no deathmatches on IP-over-roadway, no sir.
Let's see... 1TB HDD's... say, about, 50 of 'em. Say, about a 5 hour trip... 2,777,777.7~ KB/s or 2.7GB/s

Even just 1 over a 20 hour trip is respectable... 13888.8~ KB/s or ~ 14MB/s.
permalink · 2009-09-09 14:18:44 · Print · Reply to this
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Someone test AT&T.

Someone go test this with AT&T, the iphone and a carrier pidgin.

I have a feeling it's going to be a close race.
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:02:42 · Reply to this
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: Someone test AT&T.

I think the pidgin would beat AT&T
just put a 64GB flash drive on it and send it

then just try to download 64GB on the iPhone (yes I know the iPhone is only up to 32GB thus the win to the pidgin)
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:34:48 · Reply to this

JohnQPublic
Premium
join:2002-03-22
Xanadu

Tasty packets

Not only will you save a bundle switching from DSL, but you can use the packets to make a casserole in red wine sauce.
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:08:47 · Reply to this
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: Tasty packets

but TCP/IP needs return packets
although not as much data needs to be sent for the data request

and are the arp and syn packets color coded?

how about an IPoAC DDOS lol
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:26:44 · Reply to this
MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17

Re: Tasty packets

said by DarkLogix See Profile :

how about an IPoAC DDOS lol

It's called a 'cat'.
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:44:21 · Reply to this
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: Tasty packets

how about a syn flood?
Broadcast domains?
near end cross talk
permalink · 2009-09-09 09:47:51 · Reply to this

EdG

@blutmagie.de

Re: Tasty packets

said by DarkLogix See Profile :

how about a syn flood?

syn flood?

Ever see Hitchcock's "The Birds"
permalink · 2009-09-10 12:42:43 · Reply to this
cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON		 IPoAC DDOS = FWSA hacks (farmers with shotguns attacks)
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:45:25 · Reply to this

bbeesley
VIP
join:2003-08-07
Las Vegas, NV

RFC1149

IP over avian carriers is actually RFC1149....RFC2549 is adds class of service but then that distinction is one that only a true geek would point out

<grin>

These are but one of many April Fools day RFCs that have been published over the years

my personal favorite is the Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:33:05 · Reply to this
DarkLogix

join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

Re: RFC1149

This memo amends RFC 1149, "A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers", with Quality of Service information.

thus 2549 supersedes 1149
permalink · 2009-09-08 17:40:04 · Reply to this

bbeesley
VIP
join:2003-08-07
Las Vegas, NV

Re: RFC1149

didn't realize amend equaled supersedes
permalink · 2009-09-08 23:50:50 · Reply to this

misiek

join:2000-12-25
Round Lake, IL

Snails are faster than ADSL.

»www.notes.co.il/benbasat/10991.asp

Enjoy
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:08:30 · Reply to this

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
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Re: Snails are faster than ADSL.

ROFL

"Yet the Wi-Fly TCP (Transmission by Pigeons) protocol of wireless internet has had its limitations. First, pigeons cannot fly through Windows. Second, since they don't fly in darkness either, this method's bandwidth drops to zero 50% of the time. Finally, there's the problem of droppings"
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:31:26 · Reply to this
MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17

1 edit

Re: Snails are faster than ADSL.

said by KrK See Profile :

...... this method's bandwidth drops to zero 50% of the time. Finally, there's the problem of droppings"

Not much different than a xDSL or cable operator injecting reset packets or throttling 10 hours per day....like some do/did.
permalink · 2009-09-08 18:46:44 · Reply to this

SYNACK
Just Firewall It
Premium,Mod
join:2001-03-05
Venice, CA
·Comcast Formerly ..

Host:
Networking
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ZyXEL
1 edit

First implemetation in Norway in 2001

A group in Norway has implemented and tested RFC 1149 back in 2001. :)

permalink · 2009-09-08 19:14:58 · Print · Reply to this

Richard B
Fur It Up

join:2007-06-22
Portland, OR
·Comcast

1 edit

Thats Not a Monopoly but a National Broadband Plan.

Excuse me, but is this what you all at Broadband Reports have been yammering for for years: A National Broadband plan. Drive out the greedy telecoms free broadband NOW!

Of course, you all are hoping for a free 100Mb connection, but that not how government entitlements work.
permalink · 2009-09-08 23:33:54 · Reply to this

whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..

ZAR

Not sure if they are spending 45k ZAR per month or 450 ZAR per month. (7.5 ZAR = 1 USD, but with purchasing power what it is in ZA, 1 ZAR can buy locally what 1 USD can buy in the USA. So, in terms of broadband purchase 1 ZAR is about 1 USD.)

Why anyone would spend 45k ZAR, or even 450 ZAR, per month for a DSL connection is beyond me. Frame relay, X.25, and quite a few other broadband services are available in this highly developed country, and likely a for a lot less money (than 45k ZAR).

There are definitely other alternatives then Telkom DSL.
permalink · 2009-09-08 23:45:05 · Print · Reply to this

Lord Slouzer

@co.za

South African Telecoms

To ZAR

I am from south africa and i can tell you that we have the most expensive internet in the world also the worst service from out Monopoly telecoms provider Telkom.

We have many ISP's but they are all at the mercy of Telkom, Even though their monopoly has officialy ended, the "second national operator" Neotel is still digging holes all over the country, so for now all we can do is wait and get this S**ty service. BTW one loaf of bread is about 8 ZAR.

That line they are using is what you guys know as a SDSL and its a 1mb line (total crap but the best they gonna get for that 45k)
permalink · 2009-09-09 03:10:02 · Print · Reply to this
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