 
vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA | Anon. access to the internet is here to stay What about library computers, or mall/airport kiosks? It's like saying payphones make it harder to track down criminals. | |
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BodyBumper
join:2004-06-21
Beverly Hills, CA
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by vpoko  :What about library computers, You just can't walk into a library and use their computer, you should know this.
or mall/airport kiosks? Those airport & mall kiosks like most public kiosks have very limited internet access.
It's like saying payphones make it harder to track down criminals. Well thats because its true.
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"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength." | |
| | | raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by BodyBumper :said by vpoko :What about library computers, You just can't walk into a library and use their computer, you should know this. Well, yeh, you can. I do it all the time when I travel. I find an library and put my name on the list to get access. Well, not my name, but a name. None of the libraries that I have used have ever checked my identification. | |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
 ·Speakeasy
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay Yeah, try that crap at the Main library in Downtown Miami. There gonna have a giant foot up your ass because they don't allow "random" users to simply come up and sign.
You either have a library card under your name and showing your state identification or license, or your just flat out denied.
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The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves. | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
 ·Comcast
edit:
February 15th, @01:59PM
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by Michieru :Yeah, try that crap at the Main library in Downtown Miami. There gonna have a giant foot up your ass because they don't allow "random" users to simply come up and sign. You either have a library card under your name and showing your state identification or license, or your just flat out denied. That's because you're talking about Miami, which has one of the highest crime rates in America. Understandably, they're paranoid.
On the other hand, go into any town library, and chances are nobody will even notice you're there. | |
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BodyBumper
join:2004-06-21
Beverly Hills, CA
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by vpoko :said by Michieru :Yeah, try that crap at the Main library in Downtown Miami. There gonna have a giant foot up your ass because they don't allow "random" users to simply come up and sign. You either have a library card under your name and showing your state identification or license, or your just flat out denied. That's because you're talking about Miami , which has one of the highest crime rates in America. Understandably, they're paranoid. No, they require us to sign up for an libary card which requires a valid form of ID here as well.
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"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength." | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
·Comcast
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by BodyBumper :said by vpoko :said by Michieru :Yeah, try that crap at the Main library in Downtown Miami. There gonna have a giant foot up your ass because they don't allow "random" users to simply come up and sign. You either have a library card under your name and showing your state identification or license, or your just flat out denied. That's because you're talking about Miami(spoiler) No, they require us to sign up for an libary card which requires a valid form of ID here as well. Ok, I guess it varies. In my old town of Sharon, MA (I've never used the library in my current town) you could just walk in and use the computer.
It's a moot point anyway, pay kiosks sure as heck don't ask you for ID. | |
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peter_m
Premium
join:2005-07-13
Canada, QC
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay ALL, as in every single library I've been to doesn't require ID, or a password to access the net. Even University LANs are wide open, just stick your ethernet cable in and you're in business. It's a big security hole that needs to be addressed. Same applies for coffee shop WiFi. They should issue passwords based on supplied ID and accurate logs should be kept... well... accurately...
Now the real question is: Do you trust any of these bozos to not fumble and give out the wrong name/ID when authorities come asking for it???? | |
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Doci
Toothless Fairy
join:2003-02-01
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Anon. access to the internet is here to stay said by peter_m :Even University LANs are wide open, just stick your ethernet cable in and you're in business. Not at my Uni. The ports are restricted with macs and only the amount that is needed are active. For instance you might be in a room that has a few ethernet ports here and there but if that room has no school owned computer none will work. Of course though, somebody could just go to a room with school computer and clone the mac of a unit connected to a port.
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Despises SensorTRACS® | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
·Comcast
| said by BodyBumper :You just can't walk into a library and use their computer, you should know this. You sure can. Of course most will ask you to sign up to reserve your time, but you can put whatever name you want there, librarians don't check ID's.
said by BodyBumper :Those airport & mall kiosks like most public kiosks have very limited internet access. I've never seen a kiosk with limited internet, not one that requires payment anyway. Most airport kiosks (which I'm more familiar with than mall kiosks) give you limited access to the net for free. Put a $5 bill in there and you can access the whole internet.
said by BodyBumper :Well thats because its true. My point is that there's no sense whining about it. Lots of things might technically make law enforcement harder, but you have to balance it against peoples' rights. | |
| | | Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun
join:2006-04-19
japan
| said by BodyBumper :said by vpoko :What about library computers, You just can't walk into a library and use their computer, you should know this. Yeah you can.. You could also walk into a college and use the open access labs without any passwords or people questioning you..
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The meek shall inherit the earth but don't forget the poor are the ones who inherit the debt. | |
| | | jp10558
Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY
| said by BodyBumper :said by vpoko :What about library computers, You just can't walk into a library and use their computer, you should know this. Hmmm, I always did in my little town in upstate NY. I seriously doubt anyone would have any idea who has used the PC in the town library in many very small towns across the US.
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Opera 9.1(Build 8679); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 X2 4600+; 2.5GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 11/19/06(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3 | |
| | | | | tango65536
join:2001-12-26
Catonsville, MD
clubs: 
| My local county library offers free wi-fi. I guess if you were doing something illegal they could check the security video to identify you. I was using it one Sunday to check stats of a football game while my daughter was getting her books together. No ID presented, or login to get on there wireless network. | |
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manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth
clubs:
| Re: BS said by gatorkram :Does anyone else feel like all this news is coming out to help kill wifi efforts to bypass the last mile? Seems like strange timing to me, as we have been getting news about large city wifi plans recently too. It isn't meant to kill PAID Municipal or City wi-fi, since these users must register to use the service. It may however affect completely free and open wi-fi.
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huh? | AIM | Speaker Pelosi?!?...OH THE HUMANITY! | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| said by gatorkram :Does anyone else feel like all this news is coming out to help kill wifi efforts to bypass the last mile? ... Without question, yes! To some degree, it's an unholy alliance--the incumbent ISP's who profit from individual subscribers (mostly telco and cable) feed these fears and cruddy stories to media outlets. Many of the media outlets, particularly newspapers, hate the Internet anyway because it has cut into their horribly overpriced advertising revenue, and they are eager to publish anything that casts the Internet or any part of it in a bad light.
Cops who think open Wi-Fi is a serious threat should learn Mandarin or Cantonese and move to China, where this sort of Internet big-brotherism flourishes.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Please Clarify Two Things: One, how exactly does WiFi access give brick 'n mortar thieves any kind of an advantage? What, pull over and MapQuest out a getaway route at an unsecure WiFi? I'd imagine that a large amount of the police's workload consists of physical crimes. Yes, cyber crime is out there, but I doubt capping open hotspots will be the cure-all for that department. Nigerian internet scams have been pulled off long before WiFi got popular...why would they be "untrackable" now?
Second, how exactly does one track down someone who pulls up to an open Linksys or whatnot? Aside from physical identification (ie. that strange car parked on the driveway), computers don't leave identifying information about who was there (unless they were dumb enough to type in their name, address, or whatever). You can get a MAC address of who was there, possibly fetch whatever information packets they sent, but what else is there?
Basically, if I'm parked on someone's WiFi unnoticed, how exactly will they track me back to my front door, barring stupid criminal blunders? Or is it these blunders that investigators bank on? | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: Not the brick 'n mortar thieves who still will be traced by conventional methods, but what about sex offender contacting children from an unknown location?
At least a library, kiosk, or payphone has a known tracable physical location where conventional methods (witnesses, survalance tapes, fingerprints, etc)can be applied with open wide area wi-fi the offender could be anyone, anywhere in range.
Any open system gives freedom, and freedom carries riskswhich need to be ascessed and some will need to be addressed.
just because it is a public system, and allows free use doesn't mean the couldn't require some identifiable login proceedure. ie before any use free or otherwise you would need to go to some public office (police, fire station, city hall, library and provide verifiable photo ID (to be recorded) to recieve a login ID and password.
Should your ID be implicated in a crime, you would be traceable. | |
| | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: said by tshirt :Not the brick 'n mortar thieves who still will be traced by conventional methods, but what about sex offender contacting children from an unknown location? Aren't payphones just the same for sex offenders? Or mail? Just because a message is sent from a public terminal or resource, doesn't mean you know 100% who sent it.
said by tshirt :At least a library, kiosk, or payphone has a known traceable physical location where conventional methods (witnesses, survalance tapes, fingerprints, etc)can be applied with open wide area wi-fi the offender could be anyone, anywhere in range. Again, aren't all those true in terms of WiFi as well? Cars leave tracks, witnesses may see something, etc. Those methods seem just as fallible as the brick-n-mortar methods of payphones, kiosks, etc. | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: Both payphones and mail could be and are used that way, and both allow tracable (mail only to a certain degree, but that is a oneway medium unless you provide a return address) and both have codifed conventional law enforcement techniques (phone trace/taps especially if a given location is used repeatly) They aren't instant or cheap but they can work.
with WI-fi the best that could be determined is the AP you were/are using and perhaps approximate distance based on signal strength, but except following the most severe types of crimes (kidnapping, terrorism, etc.) I doubt the police in this country (I believe the story reffers to Vancouver, BC, Canada where citizen privilage is different) could ever justify arresting EVERYONE who MIGHT have a WI_FI device and is within a 500-1000' radius of the AP, and then try to determine who it was.
Also Mail and phones have been around much longer, before such problems were recognised changing the systems to assure absolute identification would be impossible, Public Wi-Fi is relitively new and not yet widely distributed, so this is the proper time to consider the legal standards, requirements and resposiblities and codify any priorities.
Would it be nice if we could just have wide open free wifi everywhere?
Yes.
But we know crimes are committed via computer both wired and wireless, and it is logical to assume that some will take advantage of any anynomus system to increase their activity.
It's is reasonable for law enforcement to voice their concerns, to start a public debate about what laws are nessesary to protect the average honest citizen from the few who abuse the system., then the peole (through their elected officals), will determine what laws and tools the police may lawfully use.
I would rather see a simple ID system required for all APs then have the CIA,NSA,FBI feel the need to scoop up, record and analysis ALL data in the hopes of catching a few (hopefully before a violent crime)
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| | | | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: said by tshirt : Also Mail and phones have been around much longer, before such problems were recognised changing the systems to assure absolute identification would be impossible, Public Wi-Fi is relitively new and not yet widely distributed, so this is the proper time to consider the legal standards, requirements and resposiblities and codify any priorities. So...wait. Mail and phones have long been around, and since conception, could be used anonomously (aside from a criminal idiot reusing the same phone/mailbox). That's apparantly OK. However, what's not OK is WiFi spots doing the exact same thing.
Again, I don't get it. | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: said by AquaBlaze :said by tshirt : Also Mail and phones have been around much longer, before such problems were recognised changing the systems to assure absolute identification would be impossible, Public Wi-Fi is relitively new and not yet widely distributed, so this is the proper time to consider the legal standards, requirements and resposiblities and codify any priorities. So...wait. Mail and phones have long been around, and since conception, could be used anonomously (aside from a criminal idiot reusing the same phone/mailbox). That's apparantly OK. However, what's not OK is WiFi spots doing the exact same thing. Again, I don't get it. Not that it's ok, there is just no practical way to make the source of those items instantly positively identifiable, IF NEEDED. | |
| | | | | | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: said by tshirt :Not that it's ok, there is just no practical way to make the source of those items instantly positively identifiable, IF NEEDED. Sure there is! Make it so all mail and pay phone calls require a valid ID and install video surveilance! Problem solved.
...but evidently, people either don't want to put forth that expense, or are willing to allow mail and phone communications to remain fairly anonymous. If that's the case, why should open WiFi be such a huge deal in comparison? | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: That's ok by me, if you pay for it (and thereby identify yourself)
I don't intend to pay (through taxes fees or additional charges on my paid account or even through a loss of usability (ie spurs a drive for NON- network neutrality))
Why do you believe it should be free? It obviously costs someone to provide equipment, support and bandwidth,, so who should pay for it? I've explained my opposition to having it open/anonymous, open/identifiable is fine, at your expense.
YOU could start your own wi-fi net funded by a trust that relys on anonymous donations, surely everyone using it would happily, reliably, anonymously donate the $2/5/10/50 a month required to keep it afloat and pay the legal bills......right?  | |
| | | | | | | | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: said by tshirt : Why do you believe it should be free? It obviously costs someone to provide equipment, support and bandwidth,, so who should pay for it? Why should the government, or anyone else for that matter, step in and say how I should conduct myself on my own property? And no, it certainly isn't the "think of the children!" defense, as anonymous harrassment can already come through "secure" channels like mail and phoneline.
The less I have the government telling me how to do things, the better. And legal bills? Currently, the **AA's "you own the connection, it's your problem" isn't holding water in courts, so I wouldn't worry much about that department either. | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: Please Clarify Two Things: No one is stopping you from doing anything (which does not harm others) on your own property. you may open YOUR wi-fi to anyone, it only how you attach to the "public" network (AKA internet, aren't you glad the government started that?)
no one said email or phone are secure, but they do have a degree of traceability that an open/anonymous does not have.
The law that has so far protected ISP's, also requires their cooperation.
It might not apply to your trust (shell corporation) that's apparent purpose is to skirt the law. (Ah, conspiracy & theft, excellent!  )
of course it'll never get off the ground with your non-spelling friend above anonymous leeching instead of paying | |
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Anomus
@rr.com
| You know, I was just posting about this on Sunday as I have been p2ping 15gigs a day for almost 2 years now. All thanks to my neighbors unsecured routers. I have no worries about th **aa's filing suit or busting down my door because I am trully anonomous on the internet. Its great. And that washington post article even quotes cops admitting they dont know what to do about even the pedophiles let alone a lowely p2per like me. Come on everybody, its a free for all. Join the p2p army and lets change the future for ever. If everybody uses p2p, then there is no point in making it illegal. Big corp will buckle under the consumer weight and make it free ad driven just like TV has always been. To hell with all these rising cable bills. Once upon a time, you got cable because there was NO COMERCIALS. Now you pay out the wazzu and you still get comercials. Time to rise up and stop the insanity! | |
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ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI | Where to draw the line I agree with the cops.
It would be a lot easier if everyone were just born in jail, and they only let us out once they verified we wouldn't cause problems.
Now, off to Priceline for that one-way ticket to North Korea. | |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
·Speakeasy
| ! Vender's point of view:
It's not our responsibility to secure people's routers. They have the option of doing so, if they don't that's there problem.
Customer's point of view;
They should simply provide mandatory security settings at startup of the device, that way everyone would at least have a custom password.
Cops point of view:
Hell, these criminals have a fiesta with all these sheep who don't secure there WiFi and then they go crying about how they been caught downloading child pornography. The person responsible for letting some psycho child molester have his seek need go to more heights.
Whose at fault?
Vendors/Customers.
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The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves. | |
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Trinijoy
Premium
join:2005-09-12
Brick, NJ
 ·Vonage
edit:
February 15th, @02:14PM
| Re: ! Customers all the way are at fault. It's not anyone's issue but there own because they do NOT EDUCATE THEMSELVES about something. Nor is it anyones fault that they don't read the manual or the warnings.
That's like saying "OMG my meal didn't come out good, because they didn't tell me I needed an oven." Umm, no.
There is a big problem in this world, where people have a hard time blaming themselves, it's always someone else's fault.
Again, would you buy a car before even test driving it or learning what it can and cannot do? ABSOLUTELY NOT, you just don't jump in the car and say "Yup i want it, i don't what it looks like, what color it is, what engine, just give it to me and I am on my way." | |
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ooluser
@optonline.net | Does it matter? There are programs out there that can break into an encrypted wireless network within the hour. So if the person doing criminal activity is smart enough, encryption shouldn't be a problem. | |
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dadkins
Go For It
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | DUH!"Car 21, 802.11b in progress." LMAO!
History repeats itself, huh?
»Re: Priorities
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Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: DUH! said by dadkins :"Car 21, 802.11b in progress." LMAO! History repeats itself, huh? » Re: Priorities Was funny then, still dang funny now.
On another note though... ok so Mr Coffee Vendor puts up an AP in their shop. The Law says you need to secure that thing there buddy...ok fine, so he puts WPA on there and says you need to ask him for the key. All fine.
So now Mr. ChildpornLoser comes in, orders coffee and says hey there could I have that key? Sure Mr. Customer go right ahead.
So the loser goes in and does some vanilla stuff no biggie "Hey howabout that NASCAR race!" ok fine...
Now, what's the distance on Wifi? Oh yea...he then leaves the shop and goes out to his car parked close enough for it to work but far away enough not to be noticed by Mr. Coffee. Goes all pr0n crazy in the car.
Sure you have logs just as you should regardless of whether or not the AP is free & open. Point is that you could social network yourself into a key. Nevermind that most hope routers the keys would be lameo anyway and easily cracked. It is also unlikely that Mr. Coffee is really very good at this stuff and just put up the AP so he'd get some business. Quick, arrest him for aiding a criminal.
Video from the store is pointless since you don't know who's connected where, unless the dude is a known sex offender.
AP is "secured" but pointless. Thus, sorry, while I understand the police's plight here they will just need to work harder to get the answer. Or better yet, go call Chloe O'brien from 24 since she always seems to be able to figure this stuff out.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA | No hurry to get to that call, at 'b' speeds they'll be there all day  | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: DUH! said by tshirt : No hurry to get to that call, at 'b' speeds they'll be there all day Nah, they'll just use traffic shaping technology to help prioritize their connections.
Get it...traffic... LOL I crack myself up.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
| brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Miami, FL | COPS Bad boys , what are you going to do when they come for you? | |
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dadkins
Go For It
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | Re: COPS So, the cop's MDT will have a packet sniffer on it now? | |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | DO IT for the CHILDREN! oh wait....you could be harboring terrorists ip packets... | |
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yock
Eschew the False Dichotomy
Premium
join:2000-11-21
Fairfield, OH
| It isn't just criminals who are hard to track... ...it's everyone, and that's the idea. We all have a right to a certain amount of privacy, and that includes what we read with our morning bagel and coffee. Law enforcement loves to attach the "criminal" label to stuff to turn public favor.
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Wiki Wiki
Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge | |
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tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
| Re: It isn't just criminals who are hard to track... said by yock :...it's everyone, and that's the idea. We all have a right to a certain amount of privacy, and that includes what we read with our morning bagel and coffee. Law enforcement loves to attach the "criminal" label to stuff to turn public favor. That's true, be remember the COPs work for you Mr. upstanding citizen!
every society trades some of their freedom/privacy for some security
The authorities certainly could get a warrant to supena your newspaper companies records of your subscription IF they had probably cause to believe that would implict you in a crime they were investigating.
But they couldn't request all the records just for believing that somebody must have done something and they might find eveidence if the looked at enough of everybody's records.
currently if you pay an ISP your privacy is not assured under similar circumstances.
So do you expect me as a taxpayer to subsidize a free service not just to be convienent, but just so you can feel
anonymous?
and there should be no controls in place to deal with someone who chooses to abuse the system by sending spam, phishing, running botnets, etc. from this free anonymous service? | |
| bigjimc
join:2003-04-21
Middleboro, MA | Heres an idea If someone could get all the ISPs in the world to track MAC addresses connecting to their service then they could cross reference them in a big database.
This was a joke....Who do you think I am.. The RIAA? | |
| gojuzen
join:2007-02-17
Memphis, TN
·AT&T Southeast
edit:
February 17th, @09:14PM
| Hmmm.. many people who would use wifi to pull off anything that would be regarded as a felony are probably tech savvy anyway.
of course you do have the pervs/child porn lovers who would not know a bus from a usb. but they all should be execute anyway so....
and tracking them might be just a tad bit harder.
I doubt mr/mrs average joe are going to try something like that.
point is.. if it was made by humans it can be cracked by humans. | |
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Cops Lament Wi-Fi Using Criminals
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from:
Re: !