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story category Concord Considers BPL
Company involved is ham friendly...
(old news - 11:55AM Friday Jan 12 2007)
tags: business · alternatives · BPL
The electric utility in Concord, Massachusetts, is considering deployment of broadband over powerline (BPL) technology, reports the ARRL. The system is being provided by PowerGrid Communications of Meridian, Idaho, who have met with local amateur radio operators about the technology's interference potential. Area hams call the company "cordial and very cooperative." "They know the hams are very concerned about this system," says Steve Telsey of the Colonial Wireless Association. "They're willing to notch out the ham bands. This won't address problems faced by shortwave listeners and users of time signal stations, however."

Related:
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  3. FCC To Nudge BPL Deployment
  4. DirecTV To Test Powerline Broadband
  5. 2008 Will Be The Year of Powerline Broadband
  6. BPL is Back with a New Face
  7. DirecTV, Current Offer Broadband Over Powerline
  8. RCN Moves Forward with Boston Analog Crush
Forums » Concord Considers BPL

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inteller
Sociopaths always win.

join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK

The are going to incur the wrath of Jews and Muslims...

.....for being ham friendly.

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

Re: The are going to incur the wrath of Jews and Muslims...

Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood.

odreian615

join:2006-01-18
Chicago, IL

Re: The are going to incur the wrath of Jews and Muslims...

pork rinds taste better
JoeBubba

join:2006-11-20
Farmingdale, NY
·Optimum Online

Homer Simpson: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Lisa, honey, are saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa Simpson: No.
Homer Simpson: Ham?
Lisa Simpson: No.
Homer Simpson: Pork chops?
Lisa Simpson: Dad! Those all come from the same animal!
Homer Simpson: [Chuckles] Yeah, right Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

mmmmmm pork
BPL 200 Mbps

join:2006-11-05
Toms River, NJ

fyi Porto Alegre, Brazil tests internet via power lines !!!

fyi Porto Alegre tests internet via power lines

Telecom Paper (subscription), Netherlands - Jan 10, 2007
The council of Brazilian city Porto Alegre is testing broadband over power line communications (PLC) as a possible means for boosting internet use.

fyi Needs to subscribe to read more...
»www.telecom.paper.nl/news/articl···3730&nr=
--
Unleash the commercial opportunities of BPL/PLC with killer applications & services: a “Smart Grid”, IPTV, in-home MDU networking and TRIPLE-PLAY: INTERNET, IPTV and VOICE/VIDEO IP.
BPL 200 Mbps

join:2006-11-05
Toms River, NJ

Re: 147;Powerline Networking has arrived!148; shown at CES 2007

“Powerline Networking has arrived!”

DS2 unveils largest display of market ready products for HD Video and Audio networking over home wiring at CES 2007

Demo showcases the range of applications supported by powerline networking products for home and business available from major brand names through leading stores nationwide

Booth #25907, South Hall 2, Consumer Electronic Show, Las Vegas, NV, 8th January 2007 - DS2, the global leader in powerline communication chipsets today unveiled the largest display of commercially available 200Mbps Powerline Communications products at CES 2007 showing that Powerline Networking has arrived with whole home HD and audio networking. The demo highlights the ease and simplicity of powerline home networking using a mix of readily available and new to market products from a range branded manufacturers including new products from Averlogic, Acbel, CORINEX Communications, D-Link, DEFIDEV, Conceptronic, NETGEAR and Texas Instruments.

Source: »broadbandoverpowerlines.blogspot···ved.html
--
Unleash the commercial opportunities of BPL/PLC with killer applications & services: a “Smart Grid”, IPTV, in-home MDU networking and TRIPLE-PLAY: INTERNET, IPTV and VOICE/VIDEO IP.

DataDoc
Nilsson Schmilsson
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink

Hey, my watch is wrong!

"...This won't address problems faced by shortwave listeners and users of time signal stations..."

Like every watch and clock that sets itself using the time signals. Might PO a few people.
--
That Snows the Goat & Craig's Crafts

alphapointe
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Columbia, MO
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edit:
January 12th, @12:41PM

Re: Hey, my watch is wrong!

Atomic watches and clocks set their time via WWVB, a 60khz signal. The news item is referring to the AM stations in the shortwave bands, like WWV at 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20MHz.

This will not affect atomic clocks/watches at all.

EDIT:
Here is WWV's web site:
»tf.nist.gov/stations/wwv.html

--
Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current.

DataDoc
Nilsson Schmilsson
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink

Re: Hey, my watch is wrong!

said by alphapointe See Profile :

Atomic watches and clocks set their time via WWVB, a 60khz signal. The news item is referring to the AM stations in the shortwave bands, like WWV at 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20MHz.

This will not affect atomic clocks/watches at all.

EDIT:
Here is WWV's web site:
»tf.nist.gov/stations/wwv.html

You are correct, Sir!

No coffee in the morning causes confusion in me.
--
That Snows the Goat & Craig's Crafts
W1RFI

join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
Like every watch and clock that sets itself using the time signals. Might PO a few people.
The time-signal sychronized clocks use the 60 kHz WWVB signals, as a rule. These will not be affected by BPL.

Ed Hare, ARRL

DataDoc
Nilsson Schmilsson
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink

Re: Hey, my watch is wrong!

said by W1RFI See Profile :

Like every watch and clock that sets itself using the time signals. Might PO a few people.
The time-signal sychronized clocks use the 60 kHz WWVB signals, as a rule. These will not be affected by BPL.

Ed Hare, ARRL
alphapointe already said this, and I agreed I was incorrect.
--
That Snows the Goat & Craig's Crafts
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Not everyone is going to be happy........

...but at least they opened a dialoge unlike other other companies.

quote:
The system is being provided by PowerGrid Communications of Meridian, Idaho, who have met with local amateur radio operators about the technology's interference potential. Area hams call the company "cordial and very cooperative." "They know the hams are very concerned about this system," says Steve Telsey of the Colonial Wireless Association. "They're willing to notch out the ham bands. This won't address problems faced by shortwave listeners and users of time signal stations, however."

bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast

How nice of PowerGrid...

So, they will gladly make concessions of the HAM operators of the area, but to hell with you if you happen to be a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener ? Nice, real nice.

I'm curious to see how the Feds are going to feel about Powergrid when they go online and the licensed NIST signals suddenly are gone from the airwaves. It is one thing to interfere with a bunch of hobbyist radio guys, but it is another to interfere with a federal government signal.
--
Prove it...

Fox McCloud
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join:2006-07-23
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Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

said by bmn See Profile :

So, they will gladly make concessions of the HAM operators of the area, but to hell with you if you happen to be a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener ? Nice, real nice.
_; Shortwave is encompassed in HAM radio....

Anyway, it's interesting to see this expanding...I have no complaints as long as it doesn't create terrible interference...If only I could convince DP&L to deploy this.
bmn
? ? ?
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join:2001-03-15
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·AT&T Southeast

Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

said by Fox McCloud See Profile :

_; Shortwave is encompassed in HAM radio....
Right, but the article seems to hint that they are only going to protect HAM as asked for by the ARRL guys, not shortwave in the context of radio stations broadcasting on the shortwave worldband. So, say you want to listen to a shortwave station from Bern or Berlin, it sounds like you'll be SOL once they go live.
--
Prove it...
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

said by bmn See Profile :

So, say you want to listen to a shortwave station from Bern or Berlin, it sounds like you'll be SOL once they go live.
Why do you need to listen to shortwave radio? All you need is the internet.
fivebyfive

join:2006-11-26
Morgan Hill, CA

Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

You ought to change your handle to moonbat. It would be more approriate to the comment you left here.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

said by fivebyfive See Profile :

You ought to change your handle to moonbat. It would be more approriate to the comment you left here.
Holy old thread Batman.

In case you missed it, it is called sarcasm.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
·chambers cable
·Qwest.net

said by bmn See Profile :

So, they will gladly make concessions of the HAM operators of the area, but to hell with you if you happen to be a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener ? Nice, real nice.
I didn't read them say that. They'll "make concessions" to those that complain, like HAM's, because Part 15 rules they have to. If a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener exists in the area, and they complain, under those same rules they'll need to address it, too. But if no one complains, then there can be no "harmful interference". And a Part 15 operator needs to mitigate harmful interference, not hypothetical interference.

And realistically, how many in their area will use shortwave radio, especially these days when you can stream thingsw from all over the world. And if no one's using it in this area, why waste the spectrum and stop it from being used for Part 15 applications? In the view of the FCC, spectrum should be utilized to the fullest extent.

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
Lehighton, PA

Re: How nice of PowerGrid...

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

said by bmn See Profile :

So, they will gladly make concessions of the HAM operators of the area, but to hell with you if you happen to be a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener ? Nice, real nice.
I didn't read them say that. They'll "make concessions" to those that complain, like HAM's, because Part 15 rules they have to. If a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener exists in the area, and they complain, under those same rules they'll need to address it, too. But if no one complains, then there can be no "harmful interference". And a Part 15 operator needs to mitigate harmful interference, not hypothetical interference.

And realistically, how many in their area will use shortwave radio, especially these days when you can stream thingsw from all over the world. And if no one's using it in this area, why waste the spectrum and stop it from being used for Part 15 applications? In the view of the FCC, spectrum should be utilized to the fullest extent.
That would be a valid point if this Part 15 technology actually used the spectrum. The kicker has always been BPL just radiates energy into wireless spectrum, it doesn't actually use it to provide the service.

I'm all for maximum spectrum utilization as well. The problem with the FCC's concept of this is it is an unlicensed anarchy where the most robust interferer gets the most use of the spectrum. BPL sets a precedence whereby HF spectrum in any given area will require "clearing out" before it can be used by anyone. This would be somewhat reasonable if you could expect a BPL carrier to act within days or hours. History has shown us most carriers move at glacial speeds and often deny interference.

Parts of wireless spectrum often fall out of favor when other bands become "sexy". Hams were kicked out of LF and MF when the government began to regulate radio, thinking that HF was useless. Hams discovered HF was actually more useful than the lower bands. HF use declined over the decades as VHF and UHF were more suited for local communications and now the Internet carries regional and international information. However, I think you'll see low band VHF become more popular again as UHF frequency congestion becomes more of a problem. HF still makes a simple and cost effective national network that doesn't require infrastructure. My point is that it's foolish to ruin a wireless band with the proliferation of RF polluting devices as these bands may become more valuable in the future.
W1RFI

join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT

said by bmn See Profile :

So, they will gladly make concessions of the HAM operators of the area, but to hell with you if you happen to be a shortwave radio or AM time signal listener ? Nice, real nice.
Actually, there are no concessions. As far as licensed Amateurs are concerned, a system must not cause harmful interference. So far, some of the BPL industry is doing that for Amateur Radio reasonably well.

You are right that shortwave broadcast will still be impacted. From what I have seen in most BPL systems, all but the strongest of shortwave stations have interference.

Whether that is a problem will probably depend on complaints. But how many casual shortwave listeners will know that BPL is their noise source? How many will know they can generate a complaint? How many will actually want to literally make a federal case out of their problem? And, if the BPL operator stonewalls a bit, how many will keep at it until it is resolved?

Fortunately for BPL, the AM broadcast band is NOT affected in any of the systems I have seen to date.

I'm curious to see how the Feds are going to feel about Powergrid when they go online and the licensed NIST signals suddenly are gone from the airwaves. It is one thing to interfere with a bunch of hobbyist radio guys, but it is another to interfere with a federal government signal.
In most of the BPL systems I have seen to date, various WWV NIST time signals have been strongly impacted.

Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org

Tzale
Ron Paul 2008 - Proud Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online

Great for Hams, Bad in General

Great... As a ham, I am happy to read about BPL working with licensed Amateur Radio operators.

This doesn't change my opinion on the fact that BPL isn't a worthwhile technology, and it is just a fad that the power companies are going through, hoping they can get a piece of the broadband pie... In reality, fiber to the home and other similar technologies represent the future of broadband deployment in America. BPL is a thing of the past.

-Tzale

Fox McCloud
Ron Paul Enthusiast

join:2006-07-23
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Re: Great for Hams, Bad in General

I think BPL really only has a chance in rural America...why deploy in the cities when DSL, Cable, (and now) FTTH have taken off and have been LONG established.

Sadly, that's where electric companies are focusing on the most with BPL; the cities.

It seems as though rural America will never get true broadband.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Great for Hams, Bad in General

said by Fox McCloud See Profile :

I think BPL really only has a chance in rural America...why deploy in the cities when DSL, Cable, (and now) FTTH have taken off and have been LONG established.

Sadly, that's where electric companies are focusing on the most with BPL; the cities.

It seems as though rural America will never get true broadband.
BPL had ZERO chance in rural America because the cost to deploy is higher over long distances. Just because you have power lines doesn't mean BPL is viable.

Fox McCloud
Ron Paul Enthusiast

join:2006-07-23
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
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Re: Great for Hams, Bad in General

said by moonpuppy See Profile :

said by Fox McCloud See Profile :

I think BPL really only has a chance in rural America...why deploy in the cities when DSL, Cable, (and now) FTTH have taken off and have been LONG established.

Sadly, that's where electric companies are focusing on the most with BPL; the cities.

It seems as though rural America will never get true broadband.
BPL had ZERO chance in rural America because the cost to deploy is higher over long distances. Just because you have power lines doesn't mean BPL is viable.
Hmmm, interesting, I stand/sit corrected then!

Well, if it's not something for rural America, then kill the technology; telco, cable, and fiber companies vastly more knowledgeable than the electric company about the internet...not to mention they [FFTH/DSL/cable) have more experience.

halfband
Premium
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL
·Comcast


edit:
January 13th, @11:55AM

Re: Great for Hams, Bad in General

said by Fox McCloud See Profile :

Well, if it's not something for rural America, then kill the technology; telco, cable, and fiber companies vastly more knowledgeable than the electric company about the internet...not to mention they [FFTH/DSL/cable) have more experience.
Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. BPL is late to the party, and even overlooking the interference issues just does not have a competitive advantage in any environment to justify deployment.
--
Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812

Spurs5Arsenal1

@munet.com

utility applications

bpl deployments are becoming increasingly about the utility applications (meter reading, demand reduction, fault detection) than isp service delivery. and for this reasoin bpl is here, and here to stay.

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
Lehighton, PA

Re: utility applications

said by Spurs5Arsenal1 :

bpl deployments are becoming increasingly about the utility applications (meter reading, demand reduction, fault detection) than isp service delivery. and for this reasoin bpl is here, and here to stay.
Perhaps, but wireless and PLC based systems could support these applications just as well or better.
W1RFI

join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT

Summary of status of the system

A couple of months ago, I went to the local Concord Amateur Radio club to give a presentation on BPL to the group. The local electric utility sent two representatives and PowerGrid sent one of their Vice Presidents all the way from Idaho. It was pretty apparent to me that both groups were pretty serious about communicating with the local Amateurs and ARRL.

I ran through the usual background and outlined the problems that can and will be encountered on any spectrum that BPL is using at or near the FCC emissions limits. I then ran through some of the progress being made by the industry.

First, the involved BPL equipment is made by Corinex. It uses the 200 Mb/s DS2 chipset. As outlined in other articles on this site or on ARRL's BPL page (»www.arrl.org/bpl), DS2 has reasonable notching that can protect any specific spectrum. I outlined the cooperation between ARRL and DS2. An article on ARRL's web page noted that lab tests of the DS2 equipment looked pretty good.

I then outlined my findings in Houston, TX, with the Corinex system being operated by CenterPoint and IBM. There, a few glitches notwithstanding, we were able to see that properly done, the system was able to protect Amateur Radio reasonably well.

As ARRL's article about the Corinex system points out, though, it takes good implementatio and good communication and cooperation to make that happen. In Houston, that communication exists, and from what I saw in Concord, the involved companies are equally serious about turning words into action. I look forward to working with the operator and utility there.

That good design and communication doesn't exist everywhere. In Manassas, VA, the BPL operator is not doing what it takes to eliminate the interference reported; they are hiding behind the rules that permit them to cause interference to mobile stations. In Briarcliff Manor, NY, the BPL company there is not addressing interference head on -- the round of denials and diversion continues to this day, despite my repeated offers to help them document whether their next generation product will overcome the deficiencies seen in the earlier product.

In the long run, in my opinion, it remains to be seen whether BPL will be finanicially viable and will be reliable enough in its noisy environment to be used as intended. Pretty clearly, it has some in-premise and utility application use. But none of this potential can be realized until the BPL industry as a whole responsibly assumes its obligations not to cause interference.

At this point, some in the industry are doing that well; others are not.

I think we have an opportunity in Concord to bring all of these players together to implement a system from the getgo with good communication and a positive approach to resolving problems. The players all seem to have a reasonable approach and good intentions. I will certainly do what I can to help make that happen, and I hope the others will as well.

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab
225 Main St
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: 860-594-0318
Internet: »www.arrl.org/bpl
Email: w1rfi@arrl.org
Forums » Concord Considers BPL

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