Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network ManagementLeaked memo identifies Chambersburg, Pennsylvania and Warrenton, Virginia tests 02:00PM Tuesday Jun 03 2008 by Karl Bodetags: Fileswapping · business · exclusive · bandwidth · cable · networking · ComcastI've learned that Comcast will begin testing their new, "protocol agnostic" network management solution starting on Thursday in two markets. Comcast originally came under fire after one of our users discovered the company was forging TCP packets to disrupt BitTorrent communications. If you recall, the FCC's investigation into these practices prompted the carrier to declare it would shift to a "protocol agnostic" solution by the end of this year. Any customer whose data is temporarily impacted by this technique will find that their data requests must wait in line while other customers data requests go through first.
-Comcast internal memo |
Comcast CTO Tony Werner stated at the time that "the outcome will be a traffic management technique that is more appropriate for today's emerging Internet trends." According to an internal memo obtained by Broadband Reports, this more "appropriate" system will be tested in the Chambersburg, Pennsylvania and Warrenton, Virginia markets from June until July. The memo indicates that the company will be testing several management techniques (I'd assume from different vendors) in the two markets over the next month, all of which solely target high-consumption users at peak congestion times. If you recall, Comcast's existing system throttles the upstream BitTorrent traffic for all users twenty-four hours a day (something Comcast denied). This new solution will ensure that heavy users are "temporarily placed behind other users until the congestion has passed." Those users will be forced to "wait in line" while other customers data requests go through first. "Once testing has been completed and a new management technique has been identified, we will publish a description of this new technique along with additional FAQs to benefit our customers prior to rolling it out nationally," the memo reads. The memo also states that Comcast will consider notifying impacted customers in real-time if their service is being managed "should this be necessary and technically practical." I'm assuming that this could be accomplished using a warning banner injection system similar to that being used by Canadian cable provider Rogers Communications. The memo is very light on technical specifics, given this is very much a work in progress. It does make reference to a third test market, though the market is not specified. In addition to the specific targeting of high-consumption users, last May I broke the news that Comcast was also exploring implementing 250GB monthly caps for all users. Comcast is also considering taking DMCA enforcement much more seriously, booting users from the Comcast network who receive four such warnings in a twelve-month period. While I'm the first to slam Comcast for doing something stupid, their plan so far seems like an improvement, provided Comcast makes it very clear to consumers what triggers this throttling. The only concept I remain steadfastly opposed to is the charging of overage fees (for reasons I've already explored) and I hold some serious reservations about the accuracy of the DMCA letter process. Of course this project remains early in its life cycle, and Comcast will have plenty of opportunities to screw things up in implementation. Related:- Comcast Unfazed By Traffic Shaping Media Heat
- Comcast Tells FCC To Butt Out
- Comcast Gets Investigated While Cox Gets Free Pass
- Comcast To Deploy Femtocells
- Comcast, Cox, Trot Out Their Worst 'Bandwidth Hogs'
- Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
- Comcast Expands Switched Digital Video Trials
- Comcast Pays Florida $150K For Misleading Consumers
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  LLivingLarge Better Than You Premium join:2003-12-03 Roslyn, NY | Beware of the backlash from your customers. Comcast: "It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!" -- I know before you even speak that you're wrong. | |
|  |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX | Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers. They'd probably just as soon have those customers leave who are up/downloading data at the max rate possible 24 hours a day. Backlash works two ways. | |
|  |  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
edit: June 3rd, @03:58PM
| Seriously, here is what I deem fair and would alleviate these ISPS of lawsuits, investigations, etc.
On advertisements say your speed is UP TO X amount. Then make it clear in the legal text that users who exceed a specified cap (make it universal and clear cut).. say 200GB will be subject to speed reductions. IE those with maybe 10/1 will only see 3/512 or something. You get the gist. This basically makes it so ISPS are still customer friendly and also helps reduce traffic and usage on their network for the mega users. Seriously, I think this would be a better idea than caps, traffic shaping, etc. It's about the closet win win one could hope for today. Customer's aren't stuck with huge bills, and ISPS limit traffic by slowing down mega users at least at peak times. | |
|  |  |  jarthur31
join:2006-04-14 Carlsbad, NM
·US Cable
| Re: Beware of the backlash from your customers. Man you make too much sense! But the thing with that logic is if it diminishes their bottom line corporate America will never adopt such a policy. They surely don't want to scare away new victims, I mean customers.
I have nothing against caps either but they need to spell it out in black and white and allow the consumer to view how much traffic they're generating. They should've started doing this years ago instead of lying. And remove the most aggregious offenders.
Yes, I have done and will continue to do some d/l and u/l but I've never consumed more than 40 gb in any month that I've had broadband. It makes me angry that they think it's ok to just throttle everything and reduce my d/l speed to under 100 kb/s when my connection is really 8 times faster than that. | |
|   dadkins Land of Confusion Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Waiting... ... for this/these thing(s) to screw up and hose some legit, low-comsumption user(s) to the point of stupidity.  -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Waiting... It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Waiting... said by en102 :It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. Only for those CAUSING the overload. For everyone else, this will be an improvement. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Waiting... True - not all nodes are good on all providers. DSL-Extreme has been good. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
| Simple solution. Limit the speed of high users, hence alleviating congestion and free up speed for everyone else. If everyone has 10/1 and say 10 percent of users exceed a CLEAR CUT TRACKABLE CAP (IE offer software or online counter to track usage), these 10 percent get throttled to a slower speed. Say maybe 3/512 or 2/512 for the remaining month. This A) Cuts down on lawsuits and investigations as no traffic shaping is taking place. B) ISPS say UP TO in their speed clause meaning they can offer less. C) Make it clear to users. This way you don't alienate everyone. Also, no one is disconnected. The worst that happens is their speed is slower. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10 | Re: Waiting... Nope they are instituting usage caps (X amount allowed) versus speed caps (no limits on usage but limits on bandwidth capacity). I think a bandwidth capacity limit would be better than a usage cap. My 2 cents. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Waiting... Well the honest truth is this, and honestly this. You have a large share of users who are not tech savvy. They are susceptible to hackers, viruses, botnets, etc. These users wouldn't know the difference if they used the bandwidth or someone else. The other half are tech savvy but probably could care less. You have a small amount who given the tools would be conscience of their usage. Therefore, my solution above is the most reasonable. For the less tech savvy, their bandwidth is slowed down. It will cut usage on the network, and make them solve the problem of why they consume bandwidth (virus, hacked, etc). For the other portion that like to download a ton, capping them with speed limits would make them more conscientious. Let's face it, people don't want to wait a long time on their download. Making a 10mbit line 2-3mbit down is quite a punishment. It is enough to where it might discourage high users but not to the point where it pisses them off. Plus, it lessons the strain on the network. I know some foreign isps do this. Cap high users during peak hours. It would be a start. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
| ESP,
I think a better exampled would be one like this in clearer terms. Say Highway X can hold 10,000 cars along a 25 miles stretch at capacity. Normally, there are only 5,000 cars or less and traffic runs pretty smooth. There are few backlogs, traffic jams, etc during the day. Yet, at 5 P.M. everyone gets off work, and now there are 10,000 cars on that highway for the next two hours. Obviously, everyone is slowed down, making less efficient time. This is pretty typical of MOST highways in major cities.
Basically put, this example correlates with my bandwidth model of slowing high users down. It's about the best win win anyone can ever see. ISPS seem to think building out is a swear word, and would like to find ways to make their outdated and oversold systems last. Customers are use to the "Unlimited" marketing we've seen for the last ten years. So the only solution is to do this. During the day (or non rush hour), let everyone have full capacity. However, during peak hours, everyone who has exceeded a CLEARLY stated cap has their bandwidth turned down so faster cars can go around. It would be like building a bypass so those 10,000 people are not all stuck in traffic longer due to the accident up the road. It sucks that a few people can ruin it for all, but in this day and age where businesses have millions to lobby, it won't change. As long as they keep lining Washington's pockets, we the customer, will rarely so pro consumer initiatives. The only way this changes is when consumers either
A) Speak up
B) Speak with their wallets
C) mobilize lots of people to rally around a central idea. | |
|  |  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by en102 :It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler.
I would be willing to bet money the real reason comcast is doing this is to position themselves for the "two tier" internet, with "fast lanes" for their content and those that pay a premium and "slow lanes" for the rest. | |
|  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Waiting... I'm sure that adding capacity is simpler, and very effective. ISP's (management) typically would prefer making more money off of existing, through attempting to squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond. Management doesn't really 'care' if its simpler, your typical upper level management is type alpha, and would prefer control at all cost.
I.e. Simple solution = add capacity (requires cost to an outside source... no direct gain, capacity will hit again in the not too distant future)
Complex solution = form of traffic reduction through many different means, which will require some cost, but can recoup at the per MB transferred level, and will allow for future transparent price increases (i.e. same price for service, higher cost on overage, etc) -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   dnoyeB Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09 Southfield, MI | Re: Waiting... I agree on the VOD front. The writing is on the wall with the new streaming p2p direction. | |
|  |  |  |  espaeth Misanthrope Premium join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·voip.ms
·Comcast
·Embarq
edit: June 3rd, @03:13PM
| said by nasadude :everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler. When technologies like Ethernet and Packet-over-SoNET are being used, you are correct it is usually cheaper to add bandwidth. With technologies like DSL and DOCSIS, there are limits to how far you can expand them out. In the Internet2 domain they can add a variety of links from 100mbps - 10,000mbps (10gbps). For DSL you're limited by distance, protocol, and collective connection crosstalk. (ie, if all lines are transmitting at the same time the effective throughput goes down on each line due to interference) For DOCSIS you can only increase downstream capacity 38mbps at a time eating up 6MHz chunks. Even there, the DOCSIS standard limits how many channels you can have on a segment.
The ugly truth is that broadband networks have much harsher scaling limits than other network technologies, and upgrades often require forklift replacement of all involved distribution gear. Just look at DOCSIS 3.0 -- MSOs won't see the benefits there until all of the head-ends and most user cable modems are replaced. Swapping out 14+ million end-user devices isn't a swift activity. | |
|  |  |  |   ske99slem
@swbell.net
| said by nasadude :said by en102 :It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. everything I've read indicates the most straightforward, simplest way to deal with congestion is to add capacity. One of the network engineers for Internet2 said they did a trade between caps/filters/shaping/etc. and adding capacity and adding capacity was cheaper and simpler. I would be willing to bet money the real reason comcast is doing this is to position themselves for the "two tier" internet, with "fast lanes" for their content and those that pay a premium and "slow lanes" for the rest. Adding capacity is expensive and no one here seems to want to pay for it. If they can't get more revenue, why do you think they would pay for more network?
Adding a few shaping boxes is relatively cheap and solves the problem in the short term. In the long term, us high usage people are going to be paying for their capacity upgrades.
Doc | |
|  |  |  dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
| said by en102 :It would be easier to deal with overloaded nodes at times than going through caps/filters/traffic shaping techniques. If it were just dozens of nodes- perhaps.
If it's thousands of nodes- probably not.
Besides, increase the bandwidth and the "bandwidth hogs" just use that much more. Double the capacity today, and a month from now they'd be in the same boat. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  alalper Premium join:2000-08-20 Philadelphia, PA
| said by dadkins :... for this/these thing(s) to screw up and hose some legit, low-comsumption user(s) to the point of stupidity. If there is a way to screw it up, Comcast will be sure to find it.  | |
|  |  |   telcolackey The Truth? You can't handle the truth
join:2007-04-06 Death Valley, CA
edit: June 3rd, @03:08PM
| Re: Waiting... said by alalper :If there is a way to screw it up, Comcast will be sure to find it. Yeah... they are screwing it up so bad they have become a profitable and successful ISP (not easy to do) that has driven the broadband industry.
Damn them for keeping the stock holders from selling all their shares.
Damn them for providing a solid product for 99% of the customer base!!
Damn them for steadily increasing speeds over the years and investing billions in capacity upgrades
Damn them for introducing powerboost that increases speed for interactive apps.
Damn them for trying to understand how recent dramatic speed increases and unexpected heavy usage has ramifications to all users and costs associated to them.
If they could only spend all their profits and piss off the greedy stock holders to allow for unlimited bandwidth 7x24 so 1% of us could load DVDs on our multi-terabyte disk arrays.
Bastards! -- "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik | |
|  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | Re: Waiting... Uh, yeah. | |
|  |  |  |  alalper Premium join:2000-08-20 Philadelphia, PA
| Whoa! I don't believe I said anything even remotely in the same ball park as your response. 
I simply said that they will surely find a way to screw up their traffic shaping attempt (kind of like the way they screwed up their implementation of Sandvine) thereby causing themselves and their customers all kinds of problems.
Believe it or not, I'm a triple play subscriber and I'm actually a pretty happy camper when it comes to Comcast.  | |
|  |  |  |  |   telcolackey The Truth? You can't handle the truth
join:2007-04-06 Death Valley, CA | Re: Waiting... oh... yeah.. ok.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  indy0365
join:2001-08-25 Franklin, IN
| Yeah... they are screwing it up so bad they have become a profitable and successful ISP (not easy to do) that has driven the broadband industry
I would think the profitable isp has to to more with frequent rate hikes on the tv cable side they charge 4.99 to 6.99 for a movie
comcast bought my old cable co out insight first thing we get is a rate hike
I still have the same speed/package I had with my old cable co same price to
Damn them for providing a solid product for 99% of the customer base!
sure ok depends which market you in some markets its vs fios some markets its dsl lets see the same price/speed for everyone
Damn them for introducing powerboost that increases speed for interactive apps.
got me on that one i just noticed its increases download speed for the first 10 megs ? then drops off kida like a tease | |
|  pandora Premium join:2001-06-01 Outland | Will this affect VOIP?
Will this affect VOIP for Comcast HSI users? | |
|  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
 Corydon Cultivant son jardin Premium join:2008-02-18 Denver, CO clubs:
·Comcast
| My problem with this... is that it seems to be reverting to the old practice of invisible caps (although perhaps a bit more user friendly than simply getting cut off altogether).
Will there be an invisible line that's a moving target from month to month that you have to cross before you get sent to the back of the bandwidth bus?
Or is there a bright line you have to cross before this will happen?
If the latter, I can live with it. If that bright line is drawn at 250GB, so much the better.
If this is done using the current arbitrary and invisible cutoff, I'll have a major problem with this. How can you reform your activity and bring it in line with what's acceptable if you don't know what the criteria are? -- My opinions are my own. No-one else would want them! | |
|   ph03n1x
join:2003-02-15 Sanford, FL
·RoadRunner Cable
| Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency The customers that will be affected by this will never like it, nor should they. However they should demand, unlike previous mystery caps, that Comcast remain 100% transparent about at what point you fall into the "heavy user" category. So far right now it seems like they're setting the bar at 200gigs per month which is a decently high mark. They should not ever consider lowering this limit and should be willing to raise the bar as speeds and bandwidth needs increase. | |
|  |  |  |  |   FastiBook
join:2003-01-08 Newtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Must Maintain 100% Policy Transparency I got FIOS 15/2 package and i still get delays some parts of the day. I am not a p2p user or provider, however i upload heavily to photo & video hosting sites as well as view videos & photos. Do i deserve to be punished for uploading my train & subway videos so others can see who are interested? Isn't that why i got the bleedin' FIOS in the first place, so i could????????? How about more capacity instead of making profits & not re-investing them to improve everything? if its such an issue. Someone call the IT wahhhmbulance. They could easily state that if p2p is engaged with service will be cut in half. Track it so they dont screw up everyone else. Zzzzzzz *falls asleep*.
- Andy | |
|  |  |  |  |   heathcpe
join:2002-03-19 Brandon, MS | FAP? quote: ...solely target high-consumption users at peak congestion times....
Could this be something like Hughsnet's Fair Access Policy (FAP)? | |
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