Cohen: U.S. Broadband 'Two Generations Behind'( old news - 06:29PM Wednesday Jan 17 2007) tags: Video · Fileswapping · software · networkingTorrent Freak interviews BitTorrent creator Bram Cohen, who expresses his general dislike of BT encryption, and once again pushes his ISP caching solution, which as we've frequently mentioned is an effort to prevent ISPs from keeping users from his upcoming video store. Cohen has this to say about ISPs who throttle or otherwise impair BitTorrent traffic: "Legal traffic is growing within the P2P ecosystem and piracy also travels with HTTP and FTP in high volumes. ISPs have to invest in making their networks better and faster rather than stifling applications which consumers use and love. Thats just bad marketing and customer service, especially given the competition which exists in the broadband industry and consumer focus on network neutrality. For instance, in Japan and Korea, consumers currently enjoy true all-you-can eat symmetric fiber-to-the-home at 100 mbps. Thats a great environment for P2P development to make the Web a truly powerful medium for on-demand media, with broadcast economics. Of course, it also leads to the question: Why is the United States two generations behind?" Just wait until politicians eager to pass network neutrality laws suddenly realize that RCN is admittedly impeding BitTorrent, therefore impeding the purchase of competing legitimate video services from Cohen's company. His advice to users who find out their ISP is impeding BitTorrent traffic? Switch. Related:- AACS DRM Cracked?
- BitTorrent Users Get Greedy
- 'Venice Project' Becomes 'Joost'
- Cleaning Up Tor
- BitTorrent Users Get Greedy
- Will Polluting BitTorrent Networks Stop Piracy?
- Joost Beta Now Available To All
- Xvid and DivX on PS3, 360?
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 Fluker
join:2005-04-07 West Lafayette, IN | Money It seems that companies would rather limit what you can do to save a few bucks on bandwidth. | |
|  |  |   thender Glamour Profession Premium join:2004-05-16 Staten Island, NY
·Verizon FIOS
edit: January 17th, @07:18PM
| Re: Unlimited said by ninjatutle :BT and stuff like that is why we have these slow uploads and not much better options for music and movies in a digital format. BT has nothing to do with slow uploads. DSL's limit is close to being reached with SBC's 768 up, and verizon's, who do it affordably, and they don't cap. Verizon FIOS gives me 9.5 mbps up - no caps!
It's your ISP.
Music and movies aren't in a digital format because the industry won't release it unless it's 100% controllable. The only way to make it 100% controllable is to make it 100% unwantable(see HDCP, DRM, etc), so that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Blame the people responsible. It's the ISP limiting your speed, and it's the MPAA/RIAA preventing video and music from being released digitally in good quality.
Perhaps the ISP is actually unable to profit if they give you a higher upstream, but that is still on the ISP - not bittorrent. Bittorrent is a way to use your upstream. There are many ways to use your upstream. I can send files to work, I can send files to friends, I can upload attachments here. Shall we blame every use of bandwidth for the crippled ISP's inability to offer higher upstreams?
P.S.
You forgot to blame bittorrent for bad sales and the dreaded cable ISP nighttime slowdown.  -- The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
Time to rewrite the DMCA. | |
|  |  |  Zak3056
join:2002-01-28 Greeneville, TN edit: January 17th, @07:32PM
| Re: Unlimited DSL's limit is close to being reached with SBC's 768 up Since most DS-1s these days are delivered over HDSL, I would have to say that you are mistaken. | |
|  |  |  |   thender Glamour Profession Premium join:2004-05-16 Staten Island, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Unlimited said by Zak3056 :DSL's limit is close to being reached with SBC's 768 up Since most DS-1s these days are delivered over HDSL, I would have to say that you are mistaken. Isn't your typical residential ADSL limit around 8/1? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Snickerdo Premium join:2001-02-28 St Catharines, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Unlimited said by Maxo :The theoretical limit is 1.0M but nobody is ever going to see that sort of upload on DSL and maintain reliability. We have had absolutely no problems running full 1.0M on the upstream path in this country. Perhaps your telcos just suck? -- Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal. Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Snickerdo Premium join:2001-02-28 St Catharines, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Unlimited said by Maxo :On the standard ADSL (not 2+ or anything like that) technology? Correct. Bell in Eastern Canada won't sell anything more than 800 up, but Telus in Western Canada has full 1M up products, or at least did anyway. -- Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal. Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|  |  |  |   Snickerdo Premium join:2001-02-28 St Catharines, ON
·Cogeco Cable
edit: January 18th, @03:38PM
| said by Zak3056 :Since most DS-1s these days are delivered over HDSL, I would have to say that you are mistaken. HDSL/SHDSL are absolutely nothing like ADSL. Sure, you may get symmetrical 1.5Mbit/s out of HDSL and 4Mbit/s out of SHDSL, but you're killing the voice spectrum on the DSL pair, killing the voice spectrum on any pairs next to the DSL pair, and getting 'only' 1.5-4Mbit/s down when ADSL2 is getting 24. -- Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal. Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|  |  |  |  |   kamm
join:2001-02-14 Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| Re: Unlimited said by Snickerdo :said by Zak3056 :Since most DS-1s these days are delivered over HDSL, I would have to say that you are mistaken. HDSL/SHDSL are absolutely nothing like ADSL. Sure, you may get symmetrical 1.5Mbut/s out of HDSL and 4Mbit/s out of HDSL, but you're killing the voice spectrum on the DSL pair, killing the voice spectrum on any pairs next to the DSL pair, and getting 'only' 1.5-4Mbit/s down when ADSL2 is getting 24. That's ADSL2+ and it's in daily use outside of US, f.e. in Europe. --
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|  |  |  |  |  |   Snickerdo Premium join:2001-02-28 St Catharines, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Unlimited said by kamm :That's ADSL2+ and it's in daily use outside of US, f.e. in Europe. ADSL2+ is also being widely deployed in Canada, albeit without the higher upload speed option (3Mbit/s) because to get the higher upload speed, you have to kill the voice spectrum. No telco wants to kill the voice spectrum, especially when it can cause issues with neighbouring pairs on the same drop. As it stands now, the maximum Bell offers is 16/1. -- Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal. Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|  |  |   porkchops ...meh Premium join:2003-05-17 Saint Marys, WV
edit: January 17th, @06:56PM
| 'Two Generations Behind' Using the latest-and-greatest scientific equipment known to mankind along with the aid of recent BBR publications, I have come to this conclusion:
No S_ _ _ (well, the spoiler tag's not working, so I'll leave it to the imagination)
Besides, peer-to-peer traffic throttling isn't causing the lack of US broadband development. | |
|   John Galt Am I Coming or Going? Premium join:2004-09-30 Oceanside, OR | Bram...Buddy Send me a check. The upgrades will start shortly thereafter.

 -- A is A | |
|  massysett
join:2006-01-04 Silver Spring, MD
| What are other countries doing with this speed? Yet another article claiming that other countries have faster speeds; yet another article saying nothing about what people in the other countries *DO* with the faster speeds. How are people's lives in the other countries better due to the speeds? What services are they using that others with slower speeds are not using?
I'm starting to get really skeptical. | |
|  |  Stumbles
join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL | Re: What are other countries doing with this speed? Yeah and we all should go back to dial-up cause what would people *DO* with anything faster. | |
|  |   anon1
@bellsouth.net
| said by massysett :Yet another article claiming that other countries have faster speeds; yet another article saying nothing about what people in the other countries *DO* with the faster speeds. How are people's lives in the other countries better due to the speeds? What services are they using that others with slower speeds are not using? I'm starting to get really skeptical. You are getting skeptical that we no longer need technological advances? Sounds like you are just getting old. | |
|  |   kamm
join:2001-02-14 Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
edit: January 18th, @10:32AM
| said by massysett :Yet another article claiming that other countries have faster speeds; yet another article saying nothing about what people in the other countries *DO* with the faster speeds. How are people's lives in the other countries better due to the speeds? What services are they using that others with slower speeds are not using? I'm starting to get really skeptical. "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
Thankfully it's not skepticism, it's ignorance so it's cureable... --
| |
|   John T
@verizon.net
| Correct about South Korea, somewhat less so about Japan South Korea is clearly ahead in broadband. Japan is an interesting case; in Tokyo and downtown Osaka symmetric 100 MBps is indeed available, but the percentage of people with broadband overall still slightly lags the US: »www.oecd.org/document/9/0,2340,e···,00.html
Japan thus has a bit of feast or famine, depending on where you live. It's difficult to argue that the US is two generations behind Japan; considering the availablity of FIOS, it's not more than one generation (and only because of Verizon not lifting bandwidth caps). | |
|   richardpor Fur it up
join:2003-04-19 Portland, OR
| Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog Just another cry baby who want higher speeds for more illegal downloads. Hey Cohen, how about creating a real business model that doesnt involve looting from others. Could it be P2P is not an efficient means for distributing movies, we still have DVD and VOD and satellite. I remember in the 60s I read a book about the future. The book predicted we would have passenger cars that will go 150mph not to mention flying cars. While we can build a soccer mom minivan that goes 150mph it is not practical . The first example is fuel cost, the second is road conditions. The same goes for high-speed broadband. 100Mbs is cool but for most users it is not practical. I believe many major Corporations do not use that much bandwidth for outside internet connection or inter campus WAN. | |
|  |   cohensucks
@swbell.net
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog Hey Cohen, At least RCN came clean. Not like the other providers who hide. Also from what I understand they don't limit the ability to download from seeders just the ability to massively seed content that is typically illegal anyhow. Do we really need another seed of Big Butt Latinos XXVI.
Jason will be so upset you won't be signing up for their 20/2 product as well.. | |
|  |   ablack6596
join:2005-01-28 Scarsdale, NY
| Cohen makes nothing off people using bit torrent for illegal downloads. He makes money by legally selling movies.
It is practical to have 100mbs broadband. As time progresses the file sizes people use will continue to increase and this will require faster downloads. There is nothing stopping the faster downloads other than companies that don't want to advance. | |
|  |  wrathloki
join:2007-01-17 Minneapolis, MN | 100mbps is VERY practical, and it's going to become necessary over the next couple years while downloadable content replaces physical content (video games, movies, etc.). | |
|  |  |   richardpor Fur it up
join:2003-04-19 Portland, OR
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog said by wrathloki :100mbps is VERY practical, and it's going to become necessary over the next couple years while downloadable content replaces physical content (video games, movies, etc.). You are making an assumption that can not be proven with fact. It also could be true that what you describe could be done with 10Mbsor less. 100Mbs could be fiasco as big as the DeLorean.
What I am saying is we need to step back and take a second look at teh needs of all users not just a niche who resides on DSL reports before we dump more money into a pontal sink hole | |
|  |  |  |   anon1
@bellsouth.net
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog said by richardpor :said by wrathloki :100mbps is VERY practical, and it's going to become necessary over the next couple years while downloadable content replaces physical content (video games, movies, etc.). You are making an assumption that can not be proven with fact. It also could be true that what you describe could be done with 10Mbsor less. 100Mbs could be fiasco as big as the DeLorean. What I am saying is we need to step back and take a second look at teh needs of all users not just a niche who resides on DSL reports before we dump more money into a pontal sink hole Who is we? Your precious few cents of tax dollars is not involved at all. The problem right now is even if people can afford to pay for higher bandwidth, it is not available (outrageous prices are besides the point). There are many people who are willing to pay $100 or more for a simple 15mbit/5mbit line FIOS is offering at half the price. You may not be one of them, but don't assume everyone is as hardpressed for money as you.
said by batterup :said by wrathloki :100mbps is VERY practical, and it's going to become necessary over the next couple years while downloadable content replaces physical content (video games, movies, etc.). Video games and movies are necessary? OK. So what do YOU deem necessary? There are a lot of things that are unnecessary in this world and if you know anything about business at all you would know that necessity has nothing to do with the topic on hand. | |
|  |  |  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog said by anon1 :
So what do YOU deem necessary? There are a lot of things that are unnecessary in this world and if you know anything about business at all you would know that necessity has nothing to do with the topic on hand. This is funny talking down to me about business. The only business I see on BBR is leaches. Verizon, at&t and cable companies will determine what is necessary. They have determined eliminating leaches is NECESSARY. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   anon1
@bellsouth.net
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog I think you confuse consumer necessity and corporate necessity. Yes, those companies will determine what is necessary...to keep their own businesses running, not what the consumer needs. If there is a large enough consumer demand, whether it's necessary or not, those companies WILL provide as long as there is competition. The problem now is in many areas of the country, as far as communications go, the market is neither free nor competitive, both of which are vital to improvements. Because of this, many consumer demands are left in the wind. Those companies couldn't care less what their constumers want. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  wrathloki
join:2007-01-17 Minneapolis, MN
edit: January 18th, @04:08AM
| Re: Cry Baby BBQ The Broadbad Hog said by batterup :said by wrathloki :100mbps is VERY practical, and it's going to become necessary over the next couple years while downloadable content replaces physical content (video games, movies, etc.). Video games and movies are necessary? OK. You know what I mean, it's going to be necessary in order to get the downloadable content, no need to be a smarta**.
said by richardpor :You are making an assumption that can not be proven with fact. It also could be true that what you describe could be done with 10Mbsor less. 100Mbs could be fiasco as big as the DeLorean. What I am saying is we need to step back and take a second look at teh needs of all users not just a niche who resides on DSL reports before we dump more money into a pontal sink hole Yes it is an assumption, but that is where the market is heading, with Apple TV and downloadable content on the Xbox 360 and PS3. People are going to get fed up with the hd-dvd/blu-ray disc war and they're eventually going to start leaning towards downloadable content. Besides, how can you say that we're not heading in the direction of downloadable content? I think it's more a matter of when, not if, as society becomes more technological. And the downloadable content IS being done with 10mbps or less right now, but can you imagine downloading a 1080p movie with that speed, or even a whole next-gen video game? Get real, it would take a whole day just to download one of them. | |
|  |  |  |   luminaire Premium join:2005-03-22 Oakville, ON clubs:
| I'm not a huge fan of Bram Cohen, and I don't agree with his why's, but I truly believe that we have a pressing need for higher broadband speed. We also need a model that encourages contribution, ie no filtered ports, no caps, and symmetric connections. What would I do if I had a faster connection? I wouldn't be seeding Big Butt Latina's (much). I'd be hosting web pages, offering more web services, offsite storage, and generally enjoying the fast network connection. I'm currently listening to an audio stream from my home computer that is chopping due to the slow dsl connection it is coming through to my office... -- Luminaire
"I am fairly sure that if they took porn off the internet, there would only be one website left and it would be called 'Bring Back the Porn'" -- Dr. Cox | |
|   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs: | ISPs have to invest in making their networks better and fast Why doesn't this clown build the network. Whaaaaa, whaaaaa I can't leach of the backs of the doers, whaaaaa, whaaaa. | |
|  |   anon1
@bellsouth.net
from: signmeuptoo 
| Re: ISPs have to invest in making their networks better and fast Yea no crap ISPs have to invest. Name one business that doesn't. It's people like you who keep the US lagging behind other countries. The problem is ISPs don't find enough demand to warrant further upgrades, but that is just how the general American public is, cheap and stingy not to mention broke and indedbt. There are articles explaining exactly why the US lags behind other countries as far as public technological advances. Clearest example are cell phones. The phones available to the general American market is considered trash in many other countries. Just like how the majority of the public in South America are still using Pentium 3 computers, the US lags similarly in various other public technologies. You may think we have all the best things, but peek outside your little squirrel hole of ignorance and you will see what the rest of the world is up to.
As far as higher bandwidth goes, the future of video is online. I'm not talking about anything illegal. Numerous companies are starting to offer popular TV shows directly off their website. At the moment, the quality is worse than a 20yr old VHS. Why do you think that is? It sure as hell isn't the lack of a good video source. High compression encoding such as h264 also is extremely time consuming and as such is probably not feasible. What we are left with is an hour long show, ie. 24 in HD, will require at the very least an 5Mbit dedicated line for itself (nothing else connected). Keep in mind 8 bits = 1 byte, thus a 5Mbit line has a max transfer rate of 625KB/s. What happens to the rest of the members of the family who want to either watch something else or use the internet?
Basically it comes down to this: If you want to live an Amish life, go ahead, but don't drag the rest of us down for your ineptitudes. | |
|  |  |  Soul47
join:2007-01-18 Muncie, IN
| Re: ISPs have to invest in making their networks better and fast said by anon1 :
The problem is ISPs don't find enough demand to warrant further upgrades Awwww people dont want to spend what you feel they should spend and thus so do not generate the demand you think should be generated. Welcome to capitalism. Once companies determine its profitible for upgrades they will do it. What else do you expect to happen. Just because not every needs more than 5Mbit doesnt mean you should "blame" them for holding back technological advancement. Don't be an a$$hat. | |
|  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by anon1 :
As far as higher bandwidth goes, the future of video is online. I'm not talking about anything illegal. Numerous companies are starting to offer popular TV shows directly off their website. Well this is ONE part of your rant that shows you don't have any investments. Why would Verizon, at&t or a cable company invest billions in a network if leaches can suck it dry? | |
|  |  |   Kylin
@verizon.net
| I agree with the general gist of the second half of your post (personal attack aside) and I'd like to take it a notch further. Never say never. Check out KylinTV, Chinese IPTV based on the H.264 / MPEG4-AVC. They're affiliated with Cablevision. Then check Joost and Babelgum Internet TV projects based on P2P. There is great interest for more bandwidth in the US and abroad and telcos that cannot keep up will suffer.
»kylintv.com/index.asp
»www.babelgum.com/
»today.reuters.com/news/articlene···ed=False | |
|  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY | sue Cohen should sue ISPs for lost $. | |
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