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story category Clearwire Launch Grumblings Continue
Problems getting wireless signal through energy efficient windows?
02:24PM Friday Nov 06 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: business · wireless · consumers · Clearwire
Somewhat lost in the news coverage of Clearwire's accelerating launch of Mobile WiMax markets is a simple question: does the service actually work well? As we noted a few weeks ago, there's a significant number of new Clearwire customers in our forums who haven't been exactly thrilled with the new Mobile WiMax service's speed, range or availability. Those complaints continue, with one user e-mailing us to note his experience as a new Clearwire customer has been, for lack of a more scientific term, sucky.


"I signed up for the service on Monday and took it back to my apartment to see how it worked for me," says the Broadband Reports reader, who lives in Dallas. "I noticed immediately that the signal inside my apartment was incredibly low, only 1 bar for service which resulted in sub-dialup speeds." The solution? Opening the window.

With the window open, the user received fully advertised 6mbps/1mbps service. The problem? Closing the window resulted in a complete loss of service. Apparently, the user's apartment windows have an ultra-thin layer of silver molecules to help block UV radiation, something fairly common in new or renovated homes/apartments, but which isn't playing nice with Clear service.

We've fired an inquiry at both Sprint and Clearwire to try and see if they have any additional information. The user, who called in to get a service refund, was visited by a technician that confirmed his window troubles. "The technician also stated that lots of other new customers living in my area were experiencing the exact same problem," and "cancellations in 'newer' parts of Dallas were starting to roll in at a very high rate."

It's certainly not a show stopper, but it could cause a problem for Clearwire deployments in areas with lots of new building developments (until they use femtocells or outdoor-mounted antennas). Some of this stuff is just the kind of early bleeding edge headaches you'll see with any new broadband deployment, but the indoor reception issues join a chorus of complaints about connection quality throughout our forums from users in Chicago, Portland and Atlanta.

Related:
  1. Customers Unhappy With Early Clearwire Launches
  2. Verizon To Double Smartphone ETFs?
  3. Verizon's Higher ETFs Annoy Senator
  4. XOHM Finally Becomes Clear
  5. Clearwire: 555,000 Subscribers
  6. Verizon's $1.99 Phantom Fee Returns
  7. Wireless Industry Pricing Plans Confuse Economists, Too
  8. Sprint Settles Over Stealth Contract Extensions
Forums » Clearwire Launch Grumblings Continue
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Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
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Denver, CO
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Sounds like this could play into the hands of MSOs

It certainly makes Comcast's combination of a cable modem in the house and Clearwire everywhere else more compelling.

partysource

join:2000-11-25
Phoenix, AZ

So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

Just read the reviews they are terrible. I will wait for LTE!

funchords
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Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

said by partysource See Profile :

Just read the reviews they are terrible. I will wait for LTE!
Which will suffer exactly the same problem for exactly the same reason.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
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iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
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Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

It won't. LTE in the US will use 700MHz. The problem here isn't with the tech. It's with the frequency used. There's a lot of bandwidth, but it doesn't go through walls.

Wonder if Clear could make an outdoor mounting kit for their fixed moderm? Methinks that would solve the problem.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME

Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

You would think that they could/would sell it like an appliance:

1. Mount antenna externally
2. Run cable to unit (low loss cable)

I don't see why they couldn't. Companies like Wilson Electronics sell CDMA / GSM/ iDEN repeaters and amplifiers.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO

Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

That's what every other WISP does...

funchords
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said by iansltx See Profile :

It won't. LTE in the US will use 700MHz. The problem here isn't with the tech. It's with the frequency used. There's a lot of bandwidth, but it doesn't go through walls.
My bet is that it still fails. The article says that it works with the window open and fails with the window shut due to a silver coating on the window. That problem will cross the band.

On the positive side, I'd bet that his neighbors' hotspots interfere with his less than normal.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
expert007

join:2006-01-10
Buffalo, NY

Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

2.4GHz has the same problem with big buildings that have that reflective coating on them. This isn't just a WiMax issue.

funchords
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Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

said by expert007 See Profile :

2.4GHz has the same problem with big buildings that have that reflective coating on them. This isn't just a WiMax issue.
2.4 GHz has problems penetrating buildings, coating or not. (700 MHz is no panacea in that area, either.)

The question here is, is the problem with the wavelength versus the building material's absorptive qualities or is it the electrical conductivity of the window coating?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

said by iansltx See Profile :

It won't. LTE in the US will use 700MHz. The problem here isn't with the tech. It's with the frequency used.
UHF television frequencies don't go through all walls either. Concrete, stucco with metal lath, foil backed insulation and probably a few other things can all stop 700 MHz from getting through. While lower frequencies may bend around obstacles better the fact remains that the cable TV industry began because of bad reception.
jameswade

join:2001-12-09
Hot Springs, NC
·US Cellular
·Verizon BroadbandA..
·AT&T Southeast

Hey, we'd be glad to use an outdoor modem via WiFi here in Western North Carolina where we don't have several sources of Internet access!

said by iansltx See Profile :

It won't. LTE in the US will use 700MHz. The problem here isn't with the tech. It's with the frequency used. There's a lot of bandwidth, but it doesn't go through walls.

Wonder if Clear could make an outdoor mounting kit for their fixed moderm? Methinks that would solve the problem.
sego1230

join:2008-09-06
Levittown, NY

Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

said by jameswade See Profile :

Hey, we'd be glad to use an outdoor modem via WiFi here in Western North Carolina where we don't have several sources of Internet access!

said by iansltx See Profile :

It won't. LTE in the US will use 700MHz. The problem here isn't with the tech. It's with the frequency used. There's a lot of bandwidth, but it doesn't go through walls.

Wonder if Clear could make an outdoor mounting kit for their fixed moderm? Methinks that would solve the problem.
Dont you see though, it doesn't matter, this was just one example.. many are complaining about reception problems.. examples.. buildings in the way, transmission noise from anything, even tomarrow's devices, other devices that use the 2.4Ghz range (wifi, cordless phones), microwave ovens.. I can go on and on.

Buying an outside antennae is rarely a cureall solution unless you live in an area where the only things around are your home and the transmission tower with no obstructions in the way.

Here's the thing thats not getting the proper attention, what about tomarrow; what if tomarrow they build a structure that degrades your signal, are you going to move.
vinnie97

join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX

Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

tomorrow
Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA
Not all the reviews are bad. This user is consistently getting over 10Mb downloads. »Official November 2009 Speed and Ping Test!

funchords
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Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

said by Automate See Profile :

Not all the reviews are bad. This user is consistently getting over 10Mb downloads. »Official November 2009 Speed and Ping Test!
I did too, when I was in Portland. I had triple-paned glass, but no metallic coating (which coupled with the foil backing of fiberglass insulation tends to turn the room into a Faraday cage).
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
AstroBoy

join:2008-08-08
Parkville, MD

I was wondering when someone would say Faraday cage!

I was wondering when someone would say Faraday cage!
sego1230

join:2008-09-06
Levittown, NY

3 edits
The first one looks too good to be true, your getting at least 10Mbps dl rate 350miles away from the tower? Sounds like the test result from a perfect obstruction free environment with nobody else on.

Ignite
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Re: So much for your 4G Wimax LMAO

said by sego1230 See Profile :

The first one looks too good to be true, your getting at least 10Mbps dl rate 350miles away from the tower? Sounds like the test result from a perfect obstruction free environment with nobody else on.
350 miles from the speed test server not the WiMax tower

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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Wireless coverage indoors always a problem

This is hardly surprising. Wireless coverage indoors, whether 2G; 3g; outdoor WiFi; or Wimax is and always will be a problem at legally permitted transmit powers. Solutions are femtocells; external antennas(like many fixed wireless providers use); and stronger &/or many more transmitters.

Femtocells are probably the cheapest most reliable solution, but that assumes you have landline broadband in the house. Which sort of defeats the point of 4G Wimax(and later LTE), which will be sold as a landline replacements.

So, I guess external antennas may be the only way to sell Wimax( & later LTE) as reliable landline replacements for residential use.
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iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO

Re: Wireless coverage indoors always a problem

Femtocells may not be the solution, but indoor-mounted picocells could be.
Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA
As pointed out in this thread »Clear vs. Energy Efficient Windows (Motorola Modem) the solution is an enclosed modem with PoE.

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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Re: Wireless coverage indoors always a problem

said by Automate See Profile :

As pointed out in this thread »Clear vs. Energy Efficient Windows (Motorola Modem) the solution is an enclosed modem with PoE.
Of course, ALL of the potential solutions add additional cost. The laptop would have a built-in or a USB Wimax/WiFi device for mobile access. But if you want to also use Wimax in many apartments at home you will need an external modem or antenna, etc. as well.
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Rogue Wolf
Is Kind Of A Big Deal In Yemen

join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY
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Re: Wireless coverage indoors always a problem

The question would then be cost and ease of installation. I can't imagine this requiring a mini satellite dish like DirecTV and its ilk require- woudn't a simple clamp-on stick antenna on an outside windowpane suffice?
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Nerdtalker
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join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:

That, and the solution is to use materials that *gasp* don't have ridiculously high absorption in spectra that are also becoming increasingly important for communication.

This seems to be a growing trend. Look at California: "Oh hey, we can reduce the temperature in cars by a degree centigrade by adding what amounts to metal to the coating"

Oh hey guys, it also happens that you're literally creating a faraday cage *and* a polarizer for wavelengths used for cellular coverage.
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Re: Wireless coverage indoors always a problem

said by Nerdtalker See Profile :

you're literally creating a faraday cage *and* a polarizer for wavelengths used for cellular coverage.
That's a great way to get people to quit texting and yapping and pay attention to driving. It's brilliant!
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
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well the optimal solution is repeaters inside the buildings linked to rooftop antenna. the coatings used where designed for optimal energy efficiency.
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PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR


1 edit

Frequency too high for indoor reception

Clearwire operates on a 2.5 GHz licensed band. That's just too high for reliable indoor reception in many cases; e.g., it's far above the frequencies used by broadcast TV, even the highest UHF channel. No wonder those Low-E coatings on those windows block it.

It's gonna need an outdoor antenna for reilable reception. Fortunately the FCC OTARD rule will cover these antennas as well, and you'll be able to install one no matter what your Homeonwers' Assoication thinks of it. You're still SOL if you live in an apartment, though. That's only one of several reasons to get out of an apartment and into a real house, though.

meh37II

@verizon.net

Re: Frequency too high for indoor reception

Most of these types of newer windows I've seen fold in for cleaning. I don't think it would be too hard--or too expensive--to make an antenna that would apply/install to the outside of the window to facilitate getting a strong signal. It could also be next to "invisible" even if you were looking right at it from more than 3 or 4 feet away from it.

mikecoatl

@bellsouth.net

Big Problem

Non of the home modems or usb card have a port for antenna so we clear customer cannot even get wimax antenna I was pretty angry thank god i didn't sign a contract!
ernliz

join:2001-11-25
Abilene, TX
·Clearwire Wireless

Clear: What, me worry??

It's true that the reviews on Clear are varied, but there seems to be more grumbling about the service than about average, mainstream services available. But what really gets me is Clear's blind eye, deaf ear to all the criticism. There is no acknowledgement to the problems with the new WIMAX; all you hear is how super fast and cool it all is. What a crock.
vlad1000

join:2005-05-19
Brooklyn, NY

what i don't like about clear is their lack of know how

WHY IN THE WORLD DOES THE CLEARSPOT DEVICE LACK AN ETHERNET PORT FOR HOME NETWORK???? INCOMPETENCY? I THINK SO...
springman

join:2009-11-07

Re: what i don't like about clear is their lack of know how

The reason you don't have an ethernet port, is because it is a mechanism to make sure you pay per user.. they don't want you sharing with your home network because their system cannot handle the load they've got already.. Additionally, it has always been their model to sell EVERY INDIVIDUAL a card or device so they get a subscription from everyone.. Remember, they did spawn out of Sprint, so the handheld device / making every human being a subscriber is what they are all about...

Having deployed a dozen Wimax systems and now an LTE system, I can say that LTE vendors are going the extra step to ensure that you can share effectively with all the devices in your home.

We have a 1st gen 700mhz subscriber station that totes a built in WIFI router on the way to make sure the customers get the same level of capabilities as if they had a cable or dsl circuit..

At any rate, Clearwire is not a bad company, they have just been sold by some snake oil salesmen that swear they have a "30Mb at 30Mile NLOS" system..

You know, that "magic broadband wand" that you just waive in the air and POOF, everybody's got internet..

Lulz...
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: what i don't like about clear is their lack of know how

well wait to see what LTE has to offer when it decides to come out of the labs next year.

MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
·Windstream

Umm, you do realize that the Motorola home device does have ethernet -- in fact, that's the only connection it has other than power. You're free to put any wireless router you want behind it and use all the devices you want. I prefer the freedom of choosing networking components rather than being stuck with an all-in-one.

Whether it's WiMax or LTE is irrelevant. At this moment you can subscribe to service with one while the other delivers only promises.
--
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awbishop

join:2004-08-26
Chicago, IL
Actually that is NOT correct. The Motorola WiMax modem does have an ethernet port and works quite well on a home network.
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

WISPs can only laugh at Clearwire's bumbling

WISPs have known for decades what Clearwire apparently doesn't: "low-E" windows contain metallic compounds that reflect microwaves! And Clearwire's spectrum -- hoarded for years by Sprint/Nextel -- isn't good at penetrating buildings, leading to slowness and customer complaints.

I've said this before, and I will say it again: Clearwire is the next Metricom. If I or someone else with real wireless experience were running the company, it might be possible to turn it around... maybe. But only maybe. It may be locked into an untenable business plan.

w0g
o.O

join:2001-08-30
Portland, OR
clubs:
·Clearwire Wireless

Re: WISPs can only laugh at Clearwire's bumbling

I think they know about some of these problems, that's one reason they had the special in-home modem designed was to improve reception in doors.
--
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durrrrr

@algx.net

Someone with "real" wireless experience, huh? You are aware of who actually started this company, right? I must assume that you know, since there's no way you'd say something so stupid without having checked.

And yet, you still said it. If there is one person on this planet that knows wireless tech, it's Craig McCaw.
mobbo

join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
·Verizon FIOS

Shocking this wasn't solved in trials

OP here

I talked with the tech that showed up to test my claims and I asked why they didn't see this coming? I know for a fact they did almost a year's worth of testing in Dallas before this launch. How on earth could they miss this?

None of the home-based modems have an external antenna port, so unless I set this modem outside on my balcony exposed to the elements, it's unusable.

I predict this issue will be THE major issue that will ultimately cause the failure of the home-broadband-alternative side of Clear...unless they come up with a solution ASAP.
neftv

join:2000-10-01
Broomall, PA

Clear as sole internet

How many would or have made Clear their sole internet access? For mobile and the home service.
mobbo

join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Clear as sole internet

I was hoping to! I realize they could be just as bad as my only other choice here (Time Warner), but competition is good for everyone. The price was lower than my current TWC service and the upstream speed (1Mbps) was faster than my current tier. I was hoping competition would start pushing that upstream from TWC higher...
vinnie97

join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX

Re: Clear as sole internet

Wha? Again, you've got FIOS in your avatar. :P
mobbo

join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX

Re: Clear as sole internet

I've moved 6 months ago... I wish I still had FiOS...trust me.

Duramax08
Oh rly?

join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

I get 1-2 bars

and it works fine for me. Getting what I am paying for with a low latency that can handle some online games like gta4 and l4d.
--
High speed internet is on my road thanks to Clear 4G! F$*% you AT&T and TWC!
vlad1000

join:2005-05-19
Brooklyn, NY

Re: I get 1-2 bars

how about skype or other voip applications?? how is that working out for you?

Duramax08
Oh rly?

join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Re: I get 1-2 bars

havent tried that but i was talking with a friend on live and it was working good he said.
--
High speed internet is on my road thanks to Clear 4G! F$*% you AT&T and TWC!

PDXArgg

@sterling.net

false advertising

It will be so nice when Clear gets slapped with somekind of false advertising suit. Half of Portland doesn't have clear coverage still, yet their commercials say portland does, oh and their "coverage" map says all of the metro area has complete coverage. What a joke.

MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA

Re: false advertising

Bwa ha ha! A response from a shill (go to the domain he posted from)

I'll bet the Ford dealership doesn't say nice things about the Honda dealership either...
--
John M - Cranky network guy
vinnie97

join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX

Re: false advertising

lol, not a very net-wise shrill at that.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
you only need to have part of it covered to say the city has it. Actually the FCC says ONLY ONE HOUSE for them to say its covered. false advertising? LMAO! The FTC would say the same. It's covered.
sego1230

join:2008-09-06
Levittown, NY


1 edit

I had a 2.4Ghz router in my apartment, I couldn't get it...

I had a 2.4Ghz router in my apartment, I couldn't get it 3 rooms away at times and when I did get it, it was never better than 2 bars.

Here is another thing, i turned my comp one way I got 2 bars, then 2 hrs later -gone- no explanation, who can I complain to, then I turned my machine a little again and 1 bar. I can't see WiMax being much better than the issues that plague local WiFi, at least WiFi is free (another words either free at, say McDonalds, Starbucks, Airports, etc. & free at home cause the wireless router is included with the home's broadband service or at least, it has been for me).
scottdls

join:2004-12-22
Flower Mound, TX

Clearwire in Dallas/Fort Worth area

I live in a Dallas "ex-urb". Saw Clearwire at local Best Buy recently. Now I know what it is. So I can't see how they missed this external antenna issue. It's hot as blazes here in Texas and in the last 5 years almost everybody has put solar screens and more commonly aluminum film on their sun facing windows. Lately with power going to 13-14 cents/KW people are adding metallic spray and roll reflective coatings to the attic. This is probably a pretty good microwave reflector too. My WiFi is great in the house, but drops off really quick outside. GSM phone is even crappy in the house. I just got a Sirius radio and 0 bars next to my home office window, but when I put the antenna on the roof right over that Window, I get MAX bars. They should make a simple cheapo antenna to mount outside a window. It could be really small. Just have to get outside those metallic coated windows.
Forums » Clearwire Launch Grumblings Continue


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