Cleaning Up Tor Purging child porn from anonymity network We've frequently discussed Tor, a networking system that bounces all of your traffic through a myriad of encrypted links (dubbed "onion routers"), with each hop in the chain remaining clueless as to the original source of the data. Designed as a tool for scientists, the politically censored and others, the system has been abused of late by p2p users and child pornographers. Users in our security forum point to this Security Focus report on how security researchers are trying to purge the seedier activity from the Tor network by offering server operators tools that let them track some network data sources.
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 | |  Good
One more step in the right path. | |
|  |  rtcyFACTS only pleasePremium
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA | Re: Good said by hayabusa3303:They do need to get rid of this crap on the net. One more step in the right path. move to China I hear all is censored there!!!!!!!!!
hell shut down the net that way, you can stop online activities, of course I'd bet guys that cry the loudest just "borrow" cd's and dvd's don't you 
sheep | |
| | |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Re: Good So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?
Just looking for clarification....
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| | | |  technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: Good said by N3OGH:So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet? Just looking for clarification.... I don't support child pornography and I don't support the policing or censorship of Tor either. Tor was not designed to be censored or policed, it was designed to maintain the small bit of anonymity that is hard to find on the Internet today.
What people do with that anonymity, is there business.
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"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius
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| | | | | N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Re: Good So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?
It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography.
I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL?  ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults.
Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it.
I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill.
There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else.
I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation.
Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it...
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FCC, PLEASE KILL THE MERGER BEFORE THE MERGER KILLS SATRAD! | |
| | | | | | yabos
join:2003-02-16
London, ON | Re: Good If you can track the origins of the kiddie porn then you can track anything on the network and therefore it's useless for being anonymous. Not that stopping kiddie porn is bad but you really think that it's going to stop people from sharing it by censoring Tor? It's the same with piracy. People will find a way like they always have. | |
| | | | | | | | said by N3OGH:So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that? It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography. I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL? ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults. Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it. I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill. There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else. I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation. Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it... I would like to shake your hand well said. | |
| | | | | | |  novaflareThe Dragon Was HerePremium
join:2002-01-24
Barberton, OH | Re: Good said by hayabusa3303:said by N3OGH:So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that? It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography. I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL? ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults. Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it. I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill. There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else. I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation. Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it... I would like to shake your hand well said. Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea
Anonimity on the itnernet is a load of crap any how. Dont think for one secound that tor keeps your isp from seeign where you go it does not. They may not be able to see what your downloading there do to encryption but they can see the http or https url you went to. Tor is no more than a proxy. If you want to see this for your self set up a proxy with encryption right before your modem and then one right before your router (or after) That is not encrypted. Now the proxy after the one right before your modem is your tor stand in. The one after that and before your pc your browesing with is your isps modem or their own proxy. Now visit a few https sites with good strong encryption and valid certs. Now finally check the logs in the proxy just before your pc.
What you will see is the https web site you went to.
This is the same thing your isp can see as they are your first hop after your modem. While you can bypass proxies your isp uses with another proxy you can not bypass their routers. Routers all have logging capabilities these routers will log url requests that are coming and going through them. So regardless of the number of hops tor gives you your isp can still infact see this.
The reason why tor allows you to bypass url etc restrictions your isp imposes is simple. All isps known at this time use proxies to filter url requests. Now tor like any proxy is done via ip so sense it would be impossible to filter out 1000s of ips to block them as a isp has no idea where or what those ips are they do not block on a ip by ip basis. If tor on the other hand used tor.someclient.com instead a isp could block tor with a simple tor.*.* entry.
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Evil does exist and it has a face to often that face is one that should look on their child with love in their eyes.
Instead only hate exists in those eyes. | |
| | | | | | | |  ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | Re: Good said by novaflare:Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea ...and it's reasons like this I'm glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system.  | |
| | | | | | | | | rtcyFACTS only pleasePremium
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA | Re: Good said by Thaler:said by novaflare:Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea ...and it's reasons like this I'm glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system. I was careful to qualify my comments with *proven* with today's DNA technology getting better every day, it's easier to get DNA evidence of a anyone that has been with a child, I also know thre will be times when such is not possible, that's when *reasonable doubt* comes into play.
hope I've cleared my position, and as Gene Hackman said in the movie " yes SIR by all means NUKE those bastards" uhh molesters | |
| | | | | | | | | | ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | Re: Good said by rtcy:I was careful to qualify my comments with *proven* with today's DNA technology getting better every day, it's easier to get DNA evidence of a anyone that has been with a child, I also know thre will be times when such is not possible, that's when *reasonable doubt* comes into play. So, again, should a test be conducted incorrectly, or evidence tampered with to give a false positive on a DNA test read, then it should be OK to do whatever with the suspect/inmate then?
That's the thing with technology. Nomatter how good we make, it, there's always a human factor involved with things. Now, if you're willing to sacrifice those few falsely incarcerated as simply a by-product of "streamlining efficiency", then that's (again) an opinion which makes me glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system.
Just keep in mind, an "open and shut" case presented in court today could very well be the "reasonable doubt" case of tomorrow. | |
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| | | | |  Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Verona, PA | said by N3OGH:So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. The problem is you cannot have anonymity and still be able to limit what is shared by the network; it just won't work and defeats the purpose of TOR altogether.
While child pornography is abhorrent you cannot go blaming those with legitimate reasons to use TOR for members who commit crimes using it. If there were a way to track only those sharing child porn without sacrificing the anonymity of everyone else you'd have a point, but the reality is there isn't and there never will be.
Decisions and judgements based on solely on emotions are almost always bad, and that's exactly what you're doing in this case, making a judgement call based on your anger towards those who participate in child porn. What you need to do is take a step back and decide if eliminating everyone's anonymity is ultimately worth it to catch a small group of people, and at what point does trampling everyone else become a bad thing; after all we could nuke New York City and eliminate almost all the child porn industry in New York City at the loss of millions of innocents. I think we can all agree that that would be a bit overkill.
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Revolution!!!... or some such nonsense. | |
| | | | | | bigjimc
join:2003-04-21
Middleboro, MA | I agree....I saw the movie 8MM and I am told by a friend the the DA's office that that was nothing compared with the sick crap that these people are doing.
Look at the FBI Top 10 Fugitives.
»www.fbi.gov/wanted.htm
Richard Gold is the biggest name on the list.
Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin. | |
| | | | | | | rtcyFACTS only pleasePremium
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA | Re: Good said by bigjimc:Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin. If for one minute people had the guts and logic to disregard what was put in their heads when they were kids about(religion), and were just logical about it, they would come to the conclusion that killers and rapist should be shot dead the next day after proven prosecution. we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: Good said by rtcy:said by bigjimc:Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin. we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world. That would make the governments job TOO easy then. | |
| | | | | | | | ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | said by rtcy:If for one minute people had the guts and logic to disregard what was put in their heads when they were kids about(religion), and were just logical about it, they would come to the conclusion that killers and rapist should be shot dead the next day after proven prosecution. we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world. ...and when evidence later comes and exonerates them, do we apologize to the body? | |
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| | | | | bi0tech
join:2003-06-19
Cockeysville, MD | "Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it."
Yeah why not intertwine two completely different issues and use one as a ridiculous rationale to impair the other. Makes sense right, we don't want those [insert random inflammatory category here] to be free from prosecution. Are you saying you support those [insert random inflammatory category here]? How can you justify keeping a free and open internet while people like [insert random inflammatory category] are running around on the net?
Point being that entire argument has more flaws than on target points. How about we think about reality and how things really come into play.
Look at the case in florida where theres a good chance a couple of young people getting a little frisky are gonna get their lives messed up for this exact line of thinking: »news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6157857.html
Has anyone not seen Bush's wonderful campaign against terror? Or the FBI warrantless tapping of anything under the sun, in pursuit of phantom terrorist or worse? Replace terrorist with pedophile/drug dealer/anything else that raises your righteous indignation and we lose another freedom.
How do you deal with jurisdictional problems? Not every country uniformly enforces the same laws, I would be willing to wager heavily that not every country enforces the same age distinction between child and adult.
Fear does not justify impairing other rights. Damn people learn from the constitution for once. | |
| | | | | | | N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1
1 edit | Re: Good Dude I'm not talking about stuff like that.
I'm talking about clear cut disgusting acts of sexual exploitation.
MOD'S HEADS UP, I'M FLAGGING MY OWN POST IN CASE IT WILL CAUSE TROUBLE.
I'm cleaning this up as best I can so the posts stays..
The one that sticks in my mind the most is a close up of a man's "junk" engaged in a certain act with the "most intimate" of feminine areas.
The female involved appears to be between the ages of 8 and 10. The picture is titled "Daddy's little girl's first time should be with daddy."
OK, defend that....
Edit. Crap you can't flag your own posts. Someone flag this so a mod looks at it ASAP.
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| | | | | | | |  QumahlinNever Enough TimePremium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
1 edit | Re: Good said by N3OGH:Dude I'm not talking about stuff like that. I'm talking about clear cut disgusting acts of sexual exploitation. MOD'S HEADS UP, I'M FLAGGING MY OWN POST IN CASE IT WILL CAUSE TROUBLE. I'm cleaning this up as best I can so the posts stays.. The one that sticks in my mind the most is a close up of a man's "junk" engaged in a certain act with the "most intimate" of feminine areas. The female involved appears to be between the ages of 8 and 10. The picture is titled "Daddy's little girl's first time should be with daddy." OK, defend that.... Edit. Crap you can't flag your own posts. Someone flag this so a mod looks at it ASAP. Your an idiot. Not a single person in this thread is trying to defend it. Your missing the whole point. The point is that by exposing the data sources, your taking a network whose SOLE PURPOSE IS ANONYMITY and taking the anonymity out of it! Tor doing this will just mean less legitimate security conscious people using tor. Noone is going to use a ANONYMOUS network who now says "Well...some things you shouldn't be anonymous for" How long is it before they decide just what else they deem is bad and want to expost
I mean hell you can abuse a child in your bedroom, why don't we remove your curtains?
I can take a sexually explicit photo of a child with a camera...so lets just install chips in all the cameras that recognize naked children and automatically blur them out...better yet, lets just get rid of cameras all together!
Not to mention this will do nothing to stop child pornography. Fetishes no matter how outright disgusting they are always have followers and those people will always find a way to meet, share, etc, etc.
But, once again, if you think ANYONE in this thread is defending child pornongraphy then you are incapable of reading
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Forum Posts:7500 | |
| | | | | | | | | N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Re: Good Yeah I'm an idiot, the personal attacks go a long way..
I'm all for the anonymity of whistle blowers and journalists...
If a private concern wants to regulate themselves I'm all for it. If the users don't like it, they can find another service. It's not like the government is stepping in and mandating they do ANYTHING.
I guess my idiot self should go back to licking boogers off the windows of the short bus.
What a jackass.....
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FCC, PLEASE KILL THE MERGER BEFORE THE MERGER KILLS SATRAD! | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Good I have two points to make to you.
1. You are getting way too emotional in your crusade against the kp pervs.
2. A system based on anonymity is pointless if it doesn't make EVERYONE anonymous. If one party can be tracked, then all parties can be tracked. Arguments against kp don't change that. If you can track down the kp pervs then the same methods/programs/devices can be used to track down political dissidents, file traders, and those people who like Joanie and Chachi. »www.sitcomsonline.com/joanielchachi.html | |
| | | | | | | | | |  japPremium
join:2003-08-10
038xx | Re: Good said by NDPTAL85:You are getting way too emotional in your crusade against the kp pervs. You nailed it. Policy making is totally ineffective, expensive, and crippling when emotional, un-equivocated thinking underlies it. Unfortunately, our media-saturated campaign process shuns the wonks we need and elects/funds sound & image bites engineered to exploit emotions. | |
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| | | | |  HelGoddess Of My Own Little UniversePremium
join:2002-04-11
Mclean, VA | said by N3OGH:So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that? I think you're missing the point being made, and I suspect you're missing it on purpose to be argumentative. But just in case you're genuinely not following...
No one is supporting child porn. What IS being said is that taking one step to block child porn, makes it that much easier and more likely for another step to be taken, to block whatever someone else finds objectionable. Fundie Xian and don't want people reading things critical of xians? Same tech used to block child porn can be used to block that. Your favored political candidate got some skeletons in the closet? Same tech used to block child porn can be used to block the websites exposing those secrets. And on and on and on, for every single thing anyone on the planet finds objectionable.
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| | | | | | ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | said by N3OGH:Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it... A scorched-earth policy regarding "OMG, think of the children!"...whatever. While we're in the ballpark of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, why not just take all the kids...and chuck 'em into a woodchipper. Nobody's gonna touch that again, I guarantee.
Sound stupid? Yeah. Because you're bastardizing anything and everything that could be used in the name of child photography and exploitation. Hell, we best be banning computers altogether since pervs can save stuff to it! | |
| | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1 | said by N3OGH:So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that? It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography. Knowledge is knowledge. Its just a stream of letters. If I wrote a book about raping and murdering kids, did I rape and murder a kid? No. All information is good, regardless of content, and it has every right to be duplicated as any other content. Its upto the receiver to decide if they want to read/view/believe in it. If you have problems with how its made, go do something about WHEN its made. How do you know someone didnt create it in Photoshop?
Your not a reader of it, you have no rights to block people from reading it. Its the readers right to read it. Begin on kiddie porn, and it turns into "national loyalty". Its a slippery slope of ice. What if someone said Christianity is wrong(Im guessing your religion, but feel free to put your own in), would you want anonymity be avaible? | |
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| | |  tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 | It doesn't make sense to censor a "free", anonymous network. | |
| | | | |  NerdtalkerWorking Hard, Or Hardly Working?Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ | Re: Good said by tiger72:It doesn't make sense to censor a "free", anonymous network. No, but to these people (and a lot of others), it obviously does. 
By this same logic, we should actively sniff the entire internet for traffic that matches signatures/some Bayesian rules for child pornography, and no-questions-asked immediately lay the banhammer down on them. It's just ridiculous.
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"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn
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Spam: 12900+ messages currently using 406 MB. | |
| | | | | |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Re: Good said by Nerdtalker:By this same logic, we should actively sniff the entire internet for traffic that matches signatures/some Bayesian rules for child pornography, and no-questions-asked immediately lay the banhammer down on them. It's just ridiculous. I'd like to do this now. Can you suggest what bit patterns I might be able to filter out? If I add "00", "01", "10", and "11" do you think that will be enough to catch it?
Seriously though, how exactly do you recognize and filter out a particular picture, video, etc of something illegal from something that isn't?
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| | | | | | | NerdtalkerWorking Hard, Or Hardly Working?Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ | Re: Good said by cdru:Seriously though, how exactly do you recognize and filter out a particular picture, video, etc of something illegal from something that isn't? You don't/cant, which is why the whole notion is equally as absurd when it comes to expecting that they'll **magically** do the same with the Tor network. That was my point, although I confused even myself in the process of formulating it.
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"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn
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Spam: 12900+ messages currently using 406 MB. | |
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| | | rtcyFACTS only pleasePremium
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA
3 edits | said by N3OGH:So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet? Just looking for clarification.... let me clarify
BBR seems full of people with NO reading comprehension, it's a statement on our lack of education in this country.
where do you see me defending any kind of porn?
I simply defend our rights to freedom of speech. you and I will NEVER stop dishonest/ SOULless people by censorship.
I also *understand* how TOR works, it was designed so that anyone anywhere in the world can send a email anonymously without fear of retaliation. the whole way the servers work is to pass the information *without* examination of the contents. about all you could do would be to limit the size of the individual content to say 50 bytes, that would put a hurt in *most* photos being sent, but even that can be circumbented.
so what would do you do?
would you also kill ALL online forums like this one, since those bastards also approach kids on them?
would you close ALL schools down, since lots of kids can be found in one easy place?
how about WE change the laws to a quick EXECUTION of the bastards once PROVEN to be child abusers in a open place, I AM ALL for that, but leave the freedoms that the rest of us want alone. We need a backbone (our society) to actually execute(laws in the books) ALL rapist and murderers, like it or not REAL fear works, and if these people KNEW what was coming it would lessen the abuse but not eliminate it.
do a online search for where you live and see how many child molesters live nearby to you, and many right near schools!
it will scare the S*iT out of you, I have a 5 year old granddaughter and a 7 year old son, and I HAVE to drive them to school because so many live nearby, my daughter now 26 was "asked" by one of these bastards into his car, I had her trained well and she screamed and ran, later the police told me that they had had the same description of the car given to them before by other parents, but the guy was not caught (to my knowledge)(and believe me I patrolled around for him) but after that all my kids went back in the car no matter how much they asked to go with their friends.
I believe in my constitution, and will always defend it, before anything else, I also believe in the law and not in mob rule. lets enforce the laws, lets follow through and kill those that need killing. if God is doing nothing about the millions dying in Africa, he won't mind a couple of thousands more that are in jails for killing innocent people.
did I clarify that for you | |
| | | | ThalerPremium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3 | said by N3OGH:So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet? Just looking for clarification.... No...Tor was developed to be a way around censorship and retain anonymity. "Hacking" a means of censorship into Tor (good natured or no) simply defeats the purpose of using the program.
Hell, I'm sure child porn has been widely peddled by the unknowing postal workers of America. Should their jobs be axed simply because a select few were unknowingly contributing to a degenerate practice? | |
| | | | |  RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Good said by Thaler:Hell, I'm sure child porn has been widely peddled by the unknowing postal workers of America. Should their jobs be axed simply because a select few were unknowingly contributing to a degenerate practice? In addition to those Postal Workers who just unknowingly deliver the Porn (which was placed into the system for them to deliver), you have one of the largest Porn Rings in the world by the name of the US Postal Service Postal Inspectors Division and the US Printing Office. One of their jobs is to Print [USPO] and Mail [USPS] Porn as part of so called "Sting" Operations. Admittedly, they do not CREATE the original images, only reproduce and recycle those that they own due to prior sting operations. OTOH, they DO distribute it so should their jobs also be axed?
Note that just like with Tor, this is only a small part of the job of the USPS Postal Inspectors and the output of the USPO but if you take the stance of "Tor is being used for this bad activity, no matter how small a part, and thus the Tor must be eliminated" this also applies to the USPS and USPO.
No matter what item you select, you are going to find those who use it for some activity that is illegal but just because it CAN be so used, this does not justify banning the item. This is just as logical as saying "Ban Automobiles" just because they have-been/can-be used as "Get Away Cars" in conjunction to Bank Robberies. | |
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| | |  thender2Glamour ProfessionPremium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY | said by N3OGH:So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet? Just looking for clarification.... I'm going to take a wild guess.
I think he meant that he doesn't want to see child porn on the web, but that he was afraid the people finding child pornographers may overstep their bounds and begin either
a) Using such methods against smaller "crimes".
b) Start accusing dead people/2 year olds(see: MPAA, RIAA) of downloading child porn.
I'm all for getting child porn off the web, but it's how you're doing it that matters. Even if you take child porn off the internet, that doesn't mean bad things of that type will stop happening, nor does it mean that very same child porn film will stop being distributed. I am for things that get child porn off the internet, but I don't think it's worth using methods where 1 in 10 interrogated are guilty to get one extra flick off the net.
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| | | | The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them.
If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it?
Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure?
Who knows. | |
| | | | | | Re: Good said by TherapyChick:The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them. If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it? Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure? Who knows. it would be a sad day if they kill anonymity on the internet, but I do understand how this SICK subject can make us all emotional to the point of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" as it were when it comes to privacy, something BUSH washes his ass with daily and then dries his ass with the constitution(sorry for the political and religion bashing).
I had to once use TOR as a whistle blower move, had it not been there (and I was able to trust it) I would never had done it for fear of retaliation( I really hate to go into more detail)as it was I was targeted as a computer savvy geek, but i was able to be cool under fire. | |
| | | | rtcyFACTS only pleasePremium
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA | said by TherapyChick:The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them. If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it? Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure? Who knows. I agree with your assesment that TOR should withstand what ever it is that TORMENT does, I have to be candid I have not read up on Torment, but do recall from my one time use of TOR, that it's aquiles heel is the amount of servers you can chain your message through. I ran some test way back then and tried 5 and 10 servers links and it seem impossible to see were a message had originated, by looking at the IP packets or the header, so I can not imagine anything short of a router based tracking system to defeat it. | |
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| | hah If this guy does not want people to use his connection, he shouldn't be a server. Does not matter they will just make a new encryption for the network. | |
|  LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 |  P2P users abuse the net once again
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See 26 replies to this post | |
axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | server blacklist Yeah it'd be nice if each server operator could blacklist content they find objectionable. I don't know how Tor works, but I assume they've got some kind of hash for each file out there. Blacklist the hashes you don't want. It would be a neverending battle, but it would help. The downside is the network for good content becomes more visible and easier to trace. | |
| | technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: server blacklist said by axus:Yeah it'd be nice if each server operator could blacklist content they find objectionable. I don't know how Tor works, but I assume they've got some kind of hash for each file out there. Blacklist the hashes you don't want. It would be a neverending battle, but it would help. The downside is the network for good content becomes more visible and easier to trace. You should really look at purchasing land or time share property in China...
Censorship = Bad
Its quit funny how so many people are willing to give up so many freedoms in the name of personal interests of others...
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| | |  manfmmdPremium
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX
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| Re: server blacklist Only the government can censor. Private citizens and public enterprise is free to to what they please when it comes to content filtering.
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huh? | AIM | The beauty of ignorance is indescribable. | |
| | | | technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: server blacklist Censorship is censorship either way your looking at it. Censorship from private citizens and public enterprise is no different from government censorship.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship | |
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| | axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | It's not censorship if it's not imposed on other people. Bad censorship is government regulation, like your example of China. "Good" censorship is what editors of newspapers do when they choose to remove something from their newspaper.
In this case, I propose that a Tor server operator controls what passes through his own server. He still doesn't know where its going or coming from, but gets to express his objection to something immoral and prevent contributing to it.
Analogy would be if you are running a message board, and delete links to spam or offensive messages and pictures. It's self-censorship but it doesn't equal bad. There are plenty of other forums out there for the users if they disagree with the taste of the owner. If the government or a user threatened the owner for not deleting things, that would be bad. | |
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| | Stupidity Prevails Good OLD BUSHISMS AGAIN.... If there are a few bad apples, punish everyone. I "love" the logic that floats around America today. Punish all for a few that abuse. NSA wiretapping... Well hell if a few Americans are bad, WHY NOT LISTEN to them all... I guess this same logic, cops should shoot everyone in a crowd to capture their bad guy. Once again, that same bad guy could have killed those people anyways. Let's just government sanction it now... Give me a break. So a few people are doing bad things. Your point? You want to screw EVERYONE for a few bad apples. I guess we should now:
Have EVERYONE assessed late fees on taxes... if a few people are late.. let's just ASSUME everyone will be.
Charge penalties automatically on your credit card. Once again, a few bad apples, so let's punish everyone.
The list goes on....
GIVE ME A BREAK... If this happens, then TOR is trult WORTHLESS because of a FEW bad apples.
Note... to get around the tracking... DISABLE JAVA.. Java is how the tracking system works. | |
| | manfmmdPremium
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX | Re: Stupidity Prevails They are trying to clean up TOR so that it can be used for it's INTENDED purpose which is not child porn or P2P.
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huh? | AIM | The beauty of ignorance is indescribable. | |
| | | technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: Stupidity Prevails said by manfmmd:They are trying to clean up TOR so that it can be used for it's INTENDED purpose which is not child porn or P2P. Again, remove your head from sand son!!!
Tor (The Onion Router) is a free software implementation of second-generation onion routing — a system enabling its users to communicate anonymously on the Internet.Source: Wikipedia
Tor is a toolset for a wide range of organizations and people that want to improve their safety and security on the Internet. Using Tor can help you anonymize web browsing and publishing, instant messaging, IRC, SSH, and other applications that use the TCP protocol. Tor also provides a platform on which software developers can build new applications with built-in anonymity, safety, and privacy features.Source: tor.eff.org
Sadly I don't see any specifics of use stated on the tor homepage at eff... No where do they single out or condone the use of Tor for any illegal or illicit activities...
Do us all a favor and go enlighten yourself before speaking again.
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| | | laizure
join:2006-08-13
Mountain View, CA | You misposted they! "They", the developers of Tor are against this. | |
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|  lm5449Premium
join:2001-03-31
Knoxville, TN | Good old left liberals again. Do not do anything to stop perverts. We demand to do anything we please. | |
|
 ftthzIf love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17 | great job ... to smoke a few bad apples u destory the whole tree. | |
| | | About Tor I do see where TOR claims to be an anonimizer. Also, I'm not condoning the illicit activity. I'm simply asking you to find justification where you kill everyone to get a few bad apples? Please englighten me.... | |
| | | Better 100 criminals get free Than 1 innocent person be convicted. That's what TOR is. It lets the 1 innocent journalist post something safely. Sure, you get child porn and the dregs of society, but that's the price you pay for your freedom. The benefit that the security TOR provides FAR outweighs the cost of the scumbags. Or, as the republicans believe, would you rather everyone get an 'internet licenses', so the government and megacorps can monitor everything you do? There are MANY reasons that anonominity is important, and TOR is just a resource that ensures it.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
| | | | Re: Better 100 criminals get free as bad as me may think we have it now in the next 10 years its going to be exactly like that | |
|
| | What is so hard about this? Lately in America, at the mere mention of "child pron" and "terrorists," the government and citizens will rally against just about anything. These two things are used as nothing more than excuses for taking away our civil liberties. People will get upset about some invasion of privacy or loss of rights, but all the government needs to do is say that it is for "protecting the children" or "stopping terrorists," and you'll have 90% of the sheeple ready to kiss the feet of the bureaucrats.
I'm certainly not personally endorsing child abuse and kidnapping and the like, but that is by no means a good enough reason to undermine freedom of speech and anonymity. To my way of thinking, there is absolutely *no* reason good enough to do so.
The entire purpose of Tor is to guarantee anonymity for anyone using it. By definition, this includes making terrorists and child pornographers anonymous as well. While we may not find the ideals or values that these groups stand for very nice, it is very hypocritical to be advocating free speech for some groups but not others. Either you have absolute freedom of speech and anonymity, or you don't have either. While blocking kiddie porn may seem to be an admirable goal, blocking any content at all is not. Today, kiddie porn; tomorrow, those who speak out against the government. Any censorship is too much censorship, especially when that censorship is occurring on a network whose entire purpose was to defeat censorship. | |
| | technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: What is so hard about this? said by Scifience:Lately in America, at the mere mention of "child pron" and "terrorists," the government and citizens will rally against just about anything. These two things are used as nothing more than excuses for taking away our civil liberties. People will get upset about some invasion of privacy or loss of rights, but all the government needs to do is say that it is for "protecting the children" or "stopping terrorists," and you'll have 90% of the sheeple ready to kiss the feet of the bureaucrats. I'm certainly not personally endorsing child abuse and kidnapping and the like, but that is by no means a good enough reason to undermine freedom of speech and anonymity. To my way of thinking, there is absolutely *no* reason good enough to do so. The entire purpose of Tor is to guarantee anonymity for anyone using it. By definition, this includes making terrorists and child pornographers anonymous as well. While we may not find the ideals or values that these groups stand for very nice, it is very hypocritical to be advocating free speech for some groups but not others. Either you have absolute freedom of speech and anonymity, or you don't have either. While blocking kiddie porn may seem to be an admirable goal, blocking any content at all is not. Today, kiddie porn; tomorrow, those who speak out against the government. Any censorship is too much censorship, especially when that censorship is occurring on a network whose entire purpose was to defeat censorship. Now only if more people would see the truth of whats going on today, it would make living life a little more bearable.
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| |  Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | How is being anonymous defending your freedom of speech? What the hell does freedom of speech have to do with anonymity????
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The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves. | |
| | RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | said by Scifience:I'm certainly not personally endorsing child abuse and kidnapping and the like, but that is by no means a good enough reason to undermine freedom of speech and anonymity. To my way of thinking, there is absolutely *no* reason good enough to do so. I am not going to dig up the quote but only give its form and punch line. It goes back to the WWII and the Nazis rounding up different groups to send to concentration camps.
It went something like "The Nazis came for Group X but since I was not a member of Group X I did not protest" (with a list of different "Group Xs") and ended "Then the Nazis came for me and there was no one left to protest."
This is a concrete illustration of going along with actions that you agree with (or at least do not get affected by) but it is the start of a slippery slide where the action expands to affect those who it did not original affect.
If I had the ability, I'd curse everyone who is advocating the shut down of Tor due to its incidental usage as a Porn Distribution method to be in a situation where they needed to be a "Whistle Blower," used Tor to do so, and due to the monitoring of Tor (to "fight" Porn) had their identity "outed" and suffered the penalty that would have occurred if they had just publicly stepped forward to "Whistle Blow." There are a large number of legitimate reasons to need to communicate anonymously and the removal of the ability to use Tor to do so can have serious effects for those who need this ability. | |
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| | I think... Tor should be left alone. I honestly believe the internet was designed to be anonymous. It's only because people have given up their civil liberties that we're subject to the type of blatant disregard of privacy that we have now. "We" means the US, of course.
If people are using the Web and other resources to do illegal stuff, I don't think monitoring internet activity is the right action to take, quite frankly. Then again, I think punishing someone because they're "in possession" of child porn is also unduly harsh. Someone could spam email you a child porn pic, which as we know is ALWAYS retrievable even if you delete the email and format the drive, and then you get punished, even though you didn't solicit that picture in any way. It's unfair.
This is my opinion. If the government would focus more on the sickos that are actually physically abusing kids instead of people who happen to receive an image or two via spam, we wouldn't even be having this problem.
And no, regardless of what a stripper tells you, just having a kiddy porn pic on your hard drive does NOT = child molester. | |
| | technickPremium
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO
kudos:1 | Re: I think... said by ReVeLaTeD:This is my opinion. If the government would focus more on the sickos that are actually physically abusing kids instead of people who happen to receive an image or two via spam, we wouldn't even be having this problem. And no, regardless of what a stripper tells you, just having a kiddy porn pic on your hard drive does NOT = child molester. I could go on and on about how messed up our government is, though I think this link will give you a pretty good idea.
»news.com.com/Police+blotter+Teen···=newsmap
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| | ... violating the Bill of Rights = terrorism
censorship = terrorism
if you believe in censorship and sacrificing your freedoms for security you deserve neither and you support terrorism.
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|  YowzaaahOurs Go To Eleven
join:2000-12-14
DamnFlat, OH | Think of the Children...... There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's law about the interjection of pedophilia into any privacy debate.
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|  La LunaSurvived AshrafulPremium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3 | ugh... Love how the lefties, almost every single one, try to defend their perceived "right to free speech" over and above the rights of a child to not be molested with a disclaimer of "....but I don't support child pornography", as if that exonerates them of all responsibility to the victims....as long as it doesn't *inconvenience* them, they can sleep at night with a clear conscience, knowing they made that pitiful statement.
Disgusting.
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| |  spamdPremium
join:2001-04-22
Cherry Valley, IL | Re: ugh...
Big ugly goofy looking dude with foil hat. |
Q: Is the Tor network responsible for child pornography or terrorism.
A: No.
Q: Will hacking the Tor network to catch pedophiles, child molesters stop child abuse. Or outright stop terrorism?
A: No.
Now if anyone can say yes to any of these questions, well then you should seriously take a good long hard look at what you are saying. Just because the content is suspect doesn't mean it's right to hack Tor. These people are too focused on the crime vs. true freedom on the internet.
Also don't forget that once Tor is hacked and being used to catch criminals, the criminals will just move on to a different source. Along with other users of Tor.
So stop living in a fantasy world, where you think you can just shut off Tor like a light switch and hope no one notices their freedoms are being taken away one by one.
The fact is that the Tor network will be stronger and harder to hack Tor servers. Because of these hacks trying to bust child pornographers and terrorist.
Besides think if this.. If the content in the Tor connection is illegal then the sender has the opportunity to encrypt the content it's self not just the Tor tunnel. Then the two parties will just PGP each other the decryption keys to the content. So even if you do inspect the tunnel all the data is encrypted. So how do we get around that?!?! Do we simply just get rid of encryption all together!
Yeah right. Keep dreaming and don't forget your aluminum hats! | |
| | | | | Re: ugh... Don't take it so personally. It's not tor specifically that is objectionable, it's privacy as whole that is the problem.
If we could just find away to take away everyone's privacy 100% percent of the time, the world would be perfect.
Why don't we just install those 2 way TVs like in 1984 so we all can be watched 24 hours a day (we could give out vouchers)? This way only the evil-doers will have to worry about their actions.
Got to go. It's time for the 2 minute hate session - (aliens, terrorists, welfare recipients, people who love privacy, the weak, anyone who disagrees with everything I've just said, etc, etc.) | |
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| | | Destroying Tor "FOR THE CHILDREN!" is yet another attempt at taking something, such a pedophilia, that NOBODY can argue with and not get accused of being a bad person.
"Lets shut down Tor because 1% of it is kiddie porn."
Sir, that's a bad idea. More harm than good will be done.
"Get out of my sight you child molester!"
You just can't argue against that because everyone is going to instantly assume that if you don't support saving the children you're a child molester.
Destroying Tor's anonymity might catch a few people who download child porn.. but at what cost? Just leave the network alone. Taking away freedom in the name of a cause nobody would dare argue with is a cheap shot. There are obviously other motives, but if they said "we want to stop pirates" people would be like "eh, who cares". But as soon as you bring sexually exploited kids in, you've got an army of people who see only one thing... children being harmed. They don't see the big picture, they see the kids and ONLY the kids.
Once child porn is out of the picture they move on to terrorists. You can't say anything against that or you support terrorism. Then they'll move on to another group of "evil people" that nobody would want to be associated with. It will just continue until there's nothing left to save us from.
I don't support child porn in any way shape or form, but it already exists, it will continue to exist, and all this does is destroy something with great potential when a few people are abusing it. Punishing the many for the crimes of the few is never OK in my book. It won't stop child porn. If compromizing Tor would remove every shred of child pornography from the world I might consider it to be a valid course of action, but I highly doubt it even removes 5%. And its also not likely to be attacking the source. The people who actually harm the children are most likely not the ones going to be caught. I'm sure there are better methods to catch the people actually harming the children than scouring an anonymous network in the hope of finding some people sharing porn that they didn't have a hand in creating.
I hate child porn, but I don't see how this is going to make it stop. Too much freedom is being lost in the hopes of catching a few sickos. I'll bet if they put in some hard work in other areas they'd catch more real pedos. Also, not every person who is sharing porn is out molesting kids. Catch the people who are doing the harm rather than trading photographs of harm that has already been done. Invest your resources in the biggest threat first, then go after others.
I'm all for saving the children, but I think this is a really stupid way to go about accomplishing that goal. I'm sure stopping piracy is one of their goals and they need a good cause that people will support. | |
| | | | Where do people get these wacky "perceptions" from? I have a right to free speech, I have a right to privacy, etc, etc.
I'm with you. You either support free (and/or private) speech or you support "the rights of a child to not be molested". Everyone knows you can't be in favor of both. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists and/or child molesters.
I know because that's what the leader of the free world said (or something along those lines). | |
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 totamakAnd they call me nuts?
join:2000-10-24
Los Angeles, CA | I say Bullshit! And just how much "child porn" is actually being 'traded'? I'll bet not much. TOR wasn't designed as a peer to peer file trading system, it was designed as a multi-hop, multi-layer proxy for web browsers - moving large amount of bits is like pushing a watermelon through the eye of the needle, doable but DAMN what a mess and the time needed. TOR is very good at turning a broadband connection into a bad 24k dial-up experience.
Where would new seekers of KP look? You know governments in general are throwing ridiculous amounts of resources, setting up honey-pot sites. The largest trader of KP on the Internet is law enforcement agencies by an overwhelming margin, the digital equivalent of 50 cops dressed as hookers to nail a single john on a Tuesday morning.
KP is a red herring, it's a way to generate arrests, showcase perp walks, and make the news at 11 PM for some press hungry DA's. They dog pile on the "cache" in every way conceivable. Considering that most reporters have freezer compartment temp IQs and as lazy as a swamp country bloodhound, they don't question anything unless it's Gee Whiz Bush or some bald crony of his.
KP hysteria has been elevated by several orders of magnitude as a problem than as a problem it really is. The REAL problem is when the bureaucrats and nanny state nitwits are frightened of tools being in the hands of the 'public' which will keep their communications secret. The powers that be want to regulate, tax, or squash whatever comes through. No matter how trivial, it could be video games or it could be chocolate chip recipes.
The systematic crushing of liberties, be it speech, assembly, privacy, to possess and bear arms, mercantile, travel, to worship without interference nor subsidized, to have consenting relationships of any nature (be it sexual, marital, business, religious, hobbies, art, sports, or communal navel gazing) - all of these taxed, regulated, or outright banned.
We live in a police state right now, make no mistake about it. When one is FORCED by law to give identity without cause, that is to be stopped merely to be identified - you live in a police state. Now think of TOR, a software tool reliant on widely dispersed servers whose aim is to thwart identification regardless of content being transferred - the police state hates that and will use any and all tools it can use.
I'm sorry that people think it's okay for the state to have any and all tools - history has shown that WITHOUT EXCEPTION that any state granted powers that it can abuse, It will abuse it, and It is never satisfied with even that. The state is ever greedy, that is why the Constitution was crafted as it was - restraint of government power. However over time, we handed responsibility over to the state and guess what, keystone Kop SWAT teams that murder a bed ridden old woman over the possibility that a barely visible quantity of illicit drugs were present somewhere, we have a chimp cowboy who is very brave with other people's lives and very generous with our treasure, we have unchecked government backed big business biases so that a given industry is not allowed to fail in the market place, a completely broken border system where we prosecute the members of the only police agency that doesn't have a SWAT team but the only one to face fully automatic rifles pointed at them on a regular basis, we have codified protections of select minorities based on feelings, we have gun bans in major cities which unsurprisingly host the lion's share of murders by gun meanwhile submachine pistol in every home armed Switzerland enjoys a murder rate lower than rural Canada (and most murders are usually foreigners on other foreigners). | |
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4 edits | Re: I say Bullshit! This is not the government trying to thwart use of TOR. This is about a self-promoting individual trying to make a name for himself by publishing an attack against TOR for the sake of "the children". The attack vectors he uses have especially been well-understood and documented by the TOR community before we even heard of this guy. There REALLY is nothing new or clever going on here, certainly nothing particularly newsworthy. All we have now is a new implementation of an old trick, that all else being equal, should not work.
That is, if the user's system has been properly configured in the first place, the attack does nothing at all.
Beyond that, it is really sad that people will partake in helping such an individual to promote himself. He did not invent this attack, he doesn't deserve any credit for it. His implementation will likely never catch on, in any case. Even if it did, some users will write scripts to detect such bad behavior on the network and identify the offenders, the people launching the attacks (they themselves will be easily identified due to the way their attacks work).
So, move along, nothing to see here. Just FUD. | |
| | | | sadly youre right there are alot more cops masquerading as young boys and girls worldwide than there are pedaphiles. I really do think they coax''(SOMEPEOPLE)''to do things they normally wouldnt have. | |
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| | RE: I say Bullshit! To put it in prospective, let's compare Tor to the Fourth Amendment, it protects decent people, but it also protects criminals, we all say man I wish the cops could just break the door down on people that do this or that, but of course we are glad that they can't just come in and search our house at will because we are protected by the Fourth Amendment and sadly so are the criminals and I certainly wouldn't advocate doing away with the Fourth Amendment, most of you wouldn't either I'd venture to guess, but that's exactly what is being proposed against Tor, as already said if you can monitor any traffic, you can monitor all traffic and that defeats the purpose of this system and thus makes it worthless.
It will not take long for communist countries and others to start using these tools to spay on people.
As, for the child porn, it would serve us all better to catch the people that molested them, then there would be no pictures, no movies and nobody watching them, because they wouldn't be there and then the children would be safer. | |
| | | Child Porn I hate these conversations. Sexual assault of children and child pornography is just this decade’s equivalent to McCarthy’s Communism. It is just one more excuse to limit the freedoms that all people should have. The target is different, it is the Internet. The purpose is the same, to exploit fear for power and money.
The exploitation of the public’s fear of child pornography by news media, the government, special interests and others is just as bad as the porn. Those who use sexual exploitation of children to promote their careers, gain power through influence over public opinion, and to make money from advertising dollars, government funding or any other source are just a guilty of exploitation as the cameraman. This exploitation also involves public fear, just like terrorism. Those who use sexual exploitation of children for personal gain are guilty of kiddy porn and terrorism.
Those same people are creating a system which will eventually promote the sexual assault and creation of pornography by their demand of these acts to perpetuate their purpose. This is an undeniable truth in our society. The war on drugs has produced more drug users. The exploitation of the public fear of gangs has produced an entire sub-culture of gangs and urban crime. It is naïve to think that those employed by our justice system are not aware of this, or simply have poor judgment; unless, their poor judgment is the same as that of child molesters. | |
| | | You know, if we really want to get into specifics... Just so we are all on the same playing field, lets make sure I have things equated properly.
Child Porn = Child abuse, amirite?
Child Abuse = Something committed by "Them", am I still right?
First, we all seem to have the misconception that OTHERS, the great unknown OTHER causes the majority of abuse, sexual or otherwise. It's all US versus THEM. Those sick freaks.
»www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/pub···3_17.htm
Take a look at that table...read across the line for "sexual abuse only" or "multiple maltreatments" (it jumps lines, but we're all intelligent here, I think you can handle it)...you should notice something...it's not the great "OTHER" that makes up most of the perps...it's parents and relatives who are overwhelmingly responsible. If you are a parent, you are statistically more likely to brutally rape your child than a stranger is.
So, when one says "think of the children, kill those people over there to save the children" (or something to that extent) just remember, by eliminating parents the amount of sexual abuse would decrease exponentially as opposed to eliminating the great "OTHER" everyone likes to drag out of the closet to sling their indignation at which would only eliminate the cases that get publicity. So the solution? Kill parents and their extended family!
Now, anyone who has an iota of intellect should note that this plan would not work. At all. That's throwing out a mighty big baby to get rid of a small amount of bathwater. We all know that overwhelmingly parents are good people, required to give a child the nuturing and love they need to grow. It would sure get rid of those bad apples though.
Tor has bad apples, but these are likely the apples that hardly anything is really going to weed out. That little portion of the population that just can't be deterred. They will find a way, bottom line. Much in the way that gun control really doesn't reduce crimes with firearms after a certain point (see, those kinds of criminals just buy illegal weapons we can't trace anyway). We have to accept that for the most part, bad apples will exist, and as such bad things will happen to good people even if we had the best laws in existence (which we don't). Nothing lawmakers or private industry can do in the short term will change this, short of the "Baby, bathwater, etc" stratagems that do not work.
I rest my case. | |
| | | Please Read, Think and Stand UP! What we have here, is a societal problem to *Communicate*
I have been a victim of actual, real and damaging abuse as a child. It has, and still sometimes takes me tremendous energy to overcome my difficulties from that in many ways. Since I have studied it a lot in my life, I think I know what abuse is and what abuse is not. I was beaten, assaulted with weapons and tediously indoctrinated to believe I was worthless trash at a time when I was too young to know I could really fight back. That caused real harm.
Part of my "therapy", as one might call it, is to fight various forms of oppression, and I am good at recognizing it. I believe TOR is presently a slim bright spot in the global technical arena of surveillance, control and what I hope will not become, global OPPRESSION (OK it is here already). I do not believe in censorship, I do believe in free speech and am very sorry that some unscrupulous individuals probably do abuse TOR.
Also, when I was about 6 years of age I was sexually "used" without coercion by an adult family member in ways that today would have but that person in prison. I almost forgot about that seemingly anecdotal incident and memory until I was reminded of it by the current hysteria over that kind of thing. Compared with the other things I experienced, that was not even worth thinking of, I would never hurt that person who did that and have a good relationship with that person today.
I am compelled to believe that life is not as simple as we would like to think;it might be in order here to examine sexuality and sexual orientation/preferences from historical, cultural and medical, psychological perspectives before we justify the destruction many good peoples lives over issues like what pictures they want to posess. I don't know what the best solution is for age of consent or other sexual conduct laws, but what we have now is a mess. What is legal in Canada or many other countries around the world would make you a terrible felon in the US. What is legal and protected in the US would get you executed in many muslem countries (two men in their 20's were executed in Iran early this year when their homosexuality was found out). People don't suddenly become transformed between being upstanding citizens and horrible criminals by crossing geo-political boundaries and sexual abuse is more a factor involving consent than it is about age!
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