 
odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Norcross, GA
clubs: | don't stifle it... This is an evolutionary technology they should be promoting it not litigating the only company with the balls to try it. | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
edit:
May 25th, @10:08AM
| Re: don't stifle it... said by odog  :This is an evolutionary technology they should be promoting it not litigating the only company with the balls to try it. Hardly. The last thing I want is to store my movies on the provider's server. Imagine if a stupid technician, installing for somebody else something, cuts your line - you not only lost your TV bu8t all of your stored stuff, let alone the fact that now they will be in full control.
This idiotic idea should die. | |
| | | | | | yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | I really can't see how this is any better than the DVR, except they can now record how many times you view a tv show. | |
| | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: don't stifle it... said by yabos :I really can't see how this is any better than the DVR, except they can now record how many times you view a tv show. They can do that now, and probably do.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| said by yabos :I really can't see how this is any better than the DVR, except they can now record how many times you view a tv show. That's the point: it isn't better at all.
It's just giuves them full control over your content. logically the next step will be when you'll be charged if you want to save it to your VCR/DVDR/etc. | |
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Phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Jacksonville, FL
 ·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: don't stifle it... said by kamm :said by yabos :I really can't see how this is any better than the DVR, except they can now record how many times you view a tv show. That's the point: it isn't better at all.It's just giuves them full control over your content. logically the next step will be when you'll be charged if you want to save it to your VCR/DVDR/etc. Try having your hard drive fry in your REAL DVR, and then swapping it only to find all your content gone. This sucks, especially considering you paid additional to be able to have DVR. I think the possibility of VOD related glitches may make it a little less fast in response to using a hard drive based DVR service, but all content could be viewed in any room of the house that has a box, and the provider could upgrade storage availability simply by adding equipment in the head end and the provisioning the boxes to use it. I think you guys fighting this are all just mad because you had suck experiences with Video on Demand type services, and think they are taking control away from you. The control is still in your hands, you can still record whatever you want. Geez. 
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1. | |
| | | | | | bbenso1
join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD
| Re: don't stifle it... said by Phattieg :Try having your hard drive fry in your REAL DVR, and then swapping it only to find all your content gone. This sucks, especially considering you paid additional to be able to have DVR. Maybe you should have backed up some of that content if you didn't want a hardware failure to wipe it out.
said by Phattieg :I think you guys fighting this are all just mad because you had suck experiences with Video on Demand type services I haven't had any problems with VOD type services. But I have had problems where the cable is out so I'd like to watch something previously recorded only to find out that I can't watch it because the DVR can't sync with the headend so it won't let me do ANYTHING. This is the same problem you'll have when they move all the recordings to the headend instead of local to your system. Of course, after I had this problem I built a MythTV box so now I don't have to rely on the crappy cable system to watch my recordings.
said by Phattieg :and think they are taking control away from you. The control is still in your hands, you can still record whatever you want. Geez. Umm, they ARE taking control away from us. The difference is that you don't see that because when you click the 'Record This' button THEIR server happily says 'OK, that's fine, I'll record this for you'. But don't think for a second that that won't change sometime in the future. It's only a matter of time until they decide that you shouldn't be able to record the final episode of Lost or American Idol or whatever. And since the recording is taking place on THEIR system at the headend it's nearly trivial for them to change the system so when you click the 'Record This' button you get a message that says "We're sorry, but the creator of this program has decided that we cannot allow you record this episode. It's too bad you let us take control away from you when we did. Now we've got it and you're screwed. Have a nice day." | |
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Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| quote:
It's just giuves them full control over your content.
Seems to me they already have control over the content.
quote:
logically the next step will be when you'll be charged if you want to save it to your VCR/DVDR/etc.
Don't blame them if it happens blame the ones stealing the content that forced their hand.
Their content to do as they like. You the consumer just pay to view it. There is no god given right that says you are allowed to copy it and have it forever.
--
Fx v1.5.0.4 - Tb v2.0a1,
Live Long & Prosper! | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| said by kamm :said by odog :This is an evolutionary technology they should be promoting it not litigating the only company with the balls to try it. Hardly. The last thing I want is to store my movies on the provider's server. Imagine if a stupid technician, installing for somebody else something, cuts your line - you not only lost your TV bu8t all of your stored stuff, let alone the fact that now they will be in full control. This idiotic idea should die. How is this ANY different from the "On Demand" services. Subscribing to Charter Cable's movie packages (HBO, etc) automatically gets you the ability to watch ANY of HBOs shows on for that month for a set time period, usually 30-60 days, at any time you want. You can treat the movie just like a DVR, pause FF, rewind, etc. The programming is stored on Charter's servers, not HBOs. So what's the difference?
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“We want the Republicans out of our bedroom and the Democrats out of our wallet and both out of our First and Second Amendment rights." - Alan Nathan | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
edit:
May 25th, @10:44AM
| Re: don't stifle it... It's different from onDemand because the user has to specify what shows they want recorded. It's a fine line but in essence the user still having to manually hit the record button means it's still a dvr and it's not ondemand. And supposedly you can store shows as long as you want, until you choose to delete them. And you have a storage limit. Honestly the media companies should love this. It ensures they can enforce copy protections and time limits on recordings. Unlike stand alone dvrs. | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: don't stifle it... I have to agree with you. This is actually studio friendly. Further, it IS still a DVR. The *AAs are idiots in thinking they have a chance to pull off this legal battle. I think in the end, we will shelve THIS case up with the Beta, VHS, laser disc, and everything else they have tried to block.
It's nothing more than DVR is today, only, think of it as being in "another room"...
But, if they want to spend their money on attorneys, more power to them. I think they are going to loose.
You know, it's getting to the point where when you get a paycheck, it might as well be direct deposited to the banks by default.. half of your check goes to the oil/energy companies and the other half to the *AAs. SEems they are the ones wanting most, er, feeling like they deserve all th emoney now adays. | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
| said by qdemn7 :said by kamm :said by odog :This is an evolutionary technology they should be promoting it not litigating the only company with the balls to try it. Hardly. The last thing I want is to store my movies on the provider's server. Imagine if a stupid technician, installing for somebody else something, cuts your line - you not only lost your TV bu8t all of your stored stuff, let alone the fact that now they will be in full control. This idiotic idea should die. How is this ANY different from the "On Demand" services. Subscribing to Charter Cable's movie packages (HBO, etc) automatically gets you the ability to watch ANY of HBOs shows on for that month for a set time period, usually 30-60 days, at any time you want. You can treat the movie just like a DVR, pause FF, rewind, etc. The programming is stored on Charter's servers, not HBOs. So what's the difference? Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut. | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| Re: don't stifle it... said by Cheese :Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut. And even if the line gets cut, they damn well will restore service soon. For all the negatives often posted about Charter here, they have always given me excellent service. I would grade them as an A-.
I really don't get why the providers are so up-in-arms, (actually I do, it's all about power). This type of head-end system would give them am extremely accurate profile of what people are watching. If 125K customers in a 500K market record the same program, that gives a good indication of what's popular.
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“We want the Republicans out of our bedroom and the Democrats out of our wallet and both out of our First and Second Amendment rights." - Alan Nathan | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
| Re: don't stifle it... said by qdemn7 :said by Cheese :Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut. And even if the line gets cut, they damn well will restore service soon. For all the negatives often posted about Charter here, they have always given me excellent service. I would grade them as an A-. I really don't get why the providers are so up-in-arms, (actually I do, it's all about power). This type of head-end system would give them am extremely accurate profile of what people are watching. If 125K customers in a 500K market record the same program, that gives a good indication of what's popular. Yes, I would expect the line to be fixed but that information on their servers would not be affected as someone would like to claim. | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| Re: don't stifle it... said by Cheese :Yes, I would expect the line to be fixed but that information on their servers would not be affected as someone would like to claim. Sure, sure, and I don't understand his opposition to this, either.
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“We want the Republicans out of our bedroom and the Democrats out of our wallet and both out of our First and Second Amendment rights." - Alan Nathan | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
edit:
May 25th, @11:47AM
| Re: don't stifle it... said by qdemn7 :said by Cheese :Yes, I would expect the line to be fixed but that information on their servers would not be affected as someone would like to claim. Sure, sure, and I don't understand his opposition to this, either. I don't think anyone understands him or anything he ever says. I don't oppose it, but it would be something I think I would need to try first to see if I like it or not as it sounds like a good idea and I would assume it may have much more space as opposed to a box sitting in the living room with a limited HDD.
Edit: Seems he can't understand he is on ignore and I can't see what he says, but it shows he replied to me, I am sure, as usual, he has insulted me, once again, showing how utterly ignorant he is. Anyone want to confirm he has insulted me and shown his usual ignorant intelligence? I sure he has said something about my level of education?
And at 40 years old as he claims he is, he sure as hell don't act like he is 40. He acts more like a a child then anything. | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| Re: don't stifle it... said by Cheese :said by qdemn7 :said by Cheese :Yes, I would expect the line to be fixed but that information on their servers would not be affected as someone would like to claim. Sure, sure, and I don't understand his opposition to this, either. I don't think anyone understands him or anything he ever says. Yawn. Your usual utter ignorance is kinda boring, kid.
You're confused again: the fact that you cannot grasp something doesn't mean others couldn't either. 
In other words it's just you, again - please, crawl back to your cave/basement.
I don't oppose it, but it would be something I think I would need to try first to see if I like it or not as it sounds like a good idea and I would assume it may have much more space as opposed to a box sitting in the living room with a limited HDD.
Well, that's what called limited abilities when it comes to abstractions - I don't need to see it to understand a fairly primitive underlying idea... | |
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: don't stifle it... said by kamm :Well, that's what called limited abilities when it comes to abstractions - I don't need to see it to understand a fairly primitive underlying idea... Really? You sure don't seem to understand the fairly primitive idea of remote storage; IE: the idea that data stored on a hard drive on a computer somewhere far away doesn't just go poof if network connecting the two gets severed temporarily.
Watch as I make Kamm mysteriously disapear for about 2 days
--
Behold the future:
The Sony Playboxwii 361.5DS | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| said by qdemn7 :said by Cheese :Yes, I would expect the line to be fixed but that information on their servers would not be affected as someone would like to claim. Sure, sure, and I don't understand his opposition to this, either. At least 3 people explained to you already, it's not our problem anymore... | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
edit:
May 25th, @12:57PM
| said by Cheese :Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. LOL 
Ummm kid it's you who - as usually - fails to understand that it is the problem.
And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut.
Ummm perhaps the access to your movies?
Sheer idiotic trolling at its best. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| said by Cheese :Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut. If you line is cut (or the connection is down), you have lost ACCESS to the recorded content until the connection is restored. With a DVR, you can still play/view what was recorded and stored on the DVR's Hard Drive. To that extent, he is correct that you've lost [access to] your recordings. | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
edit:
May 25th, @04:10PM
| Re: don't stifle it... said by RARPSL :said by Cheese :Since he is ignored, and I can see what you quoted, he fails, again to understand, that if it's stored on their servers, and the line gets cuts, it's still on their servers. And unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think you are going to lose anything if a line just happens to get cut. If you line is cut (or the connection is down), you have lost ACCESS to the recorded content until the connection is restored. With a DVR, you can still play/view what was recorded and stored on the DVR's Hard Drive. To that extent, he is correct that you've lost [access to] your recordings. Yes, but he is saying your stored stuff will be lost, which is not true. The information is still on their servers, and once your connection is restored your information will be there. And yes, having it local is better, but some people will enjoy this as it should eliminate one extra box in their home setup.
Oh damn, no reply from SKamm? I must have shot down his theory again. Not that it matters as I can't see what the genius has to say anyway. Damn, hate when that happens. | |
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rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL
| I agree. The DVR on their system is ridiculous to begin with. It sounded a lot like Cable wants more money for PPVs. Oops! Lost your show? Just rebuy it! How reliable is it is the real question. If the studios don't think so, it probably isn't. I'm all for ala carte with a basic paackage for say $20. That keeps the niche programming on air and doesn't allow censorship.
I don't watch ESPN so why should I have to pay $4 a month for it?
My idea:
Basic tier: $20-25 (your basic 50-70 channels). The rest is ala carte. Cable would make more money actually on the idiots that didn't get it all. But, people that just want to watch the major channels wouldn't have to pay for all that crap!
-Rach | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
edit:
May 25th, @10:01AM
| Cablevision ought to start running spots... Run spots about the MPAA and these channels wanting to deny customers this stuff and give phone numbers so that customers can flood the MPAA and their whining schoolgirl members with phone calls.
The MPAA which quickly find itself on the wrong side of a PR war and get their member networks unneeded heat.
And if the MPAA wants to try and bully Cablevision or other operators, the telcos and cable operators ought use their "union" to set price caps for channels so that if the MPAA members ever want their crap seeing a single customer, they'll straighten up and fly right.
The MPAA would quickly STFU when their membership starts running into roadblocks or starts seeing their channels get dropped by major cable operators.
The MPAA needs DBS and cable operators more than cable and DBS operators need the MPAA (as cable operators just start or buy their own channels). | |
| | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: Cablevision ought to start running spots... said by oliphant :The MPAA which quickly find itself on the wrong side of a PR war and get their member networks unneeded heat. As if they really care? They control most of what people 'want' to watch and can dictate the rules. Now if everyone stopped buying their services, then something might be done (and most people are like my wife, "So? I do not care, I can buy up the 30-60 year old shows for $25 a DVD and watch them on my current machine so I am happy")
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA | Re: Cablevision ought to start running spots... The MPAA is nothing without their membership and if their membership starts hurting for whatever reason and the MPAA is to blame or partly to blame, the MPAA will correct it's ways or die as members leave the organization that causes them problems. | |
| | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs: | Re: Cablevision ought to start running spots... Exactly. But people are the ones who have to make them hurt, and most people could care less.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| ymt123
join:2002-06-01
Northridge, CA
| Network dvr != tivo Not to be the proponent of the MPAA here but they do have a point. Who is to say how long they will store shows for their users. How is this different from someone who sells dvds of recorded tv shows (they will be selling this service)?
I'm all for fair use but I think there is a distinction between recording on a tivo like device and recording at a central office. I think legally the difference will come down to being how it's set up, ie it will be ok as long as every user has their own copy (instead of the cable company just making one copy for everyone that wanted to record that show). | |
| | smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| Re: Network dvr != tivo Yes, it's exactly that. That's why Cablevision responded that the MPAA is misunderstanding how it works.
Users can only watch what they choose to record. They don't get to go pick shows they forgot to record.
And, even though it is a waste of space to keep multiple copies of the same show that lots of people recorded, they are going to do it that way anyway.
Because Time Warner Cable was already sued for its Maestro TV project, which was supposed to record everything, and let users pick what they wanted to watch.
But maybe the MPAA isn't misunderstanding, perhaps they don't like the fact that a cable subscriber could use DVR functions through their standard cable box without having to go through the trouble of swapping out for a DVR box. Thus making millions of new time-shifters without much trouble. | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
 ·Comcast
edit:
May 25th, @10:46AM
| Re: Network dvr != tivo Right.
And that's the same arguement put MP3.COM out of business. (misread the part about keeping multiple copies)
They are just hosting the DVR - not changing any existing functionality.
Let them fight with the MPAA. | |
| | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by smcallah :But maybe the MPAA isn't misunderstanding, perhaps they don't like the fact that a cable subscriber could use DVR functions through their standard cable box without having to go through the trouble of swapping out for a DVR box. Thus making millions of new time-shifters without much trouble. The MPAA fully understands.
They have been crying ever since the Sony Betamax case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. They oppose the VCR because they can't control what people record. The whole idea of "time-shifting" is something they view as lost revenue. Jack Valenti is still hopping mad about the whole thing.
»www.godwinslaw.org/weblog/archiv···trangler | |
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pokesph
It Is Almost Fast
join:2001-06-25
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Network DVR personally i just want my generic, non drm'd dvr to record my shows..
but if..
How is this any different then an extended version of on demand? (which most cable co's now offer)
if the cable co's keep shows at their end for the consumer to pick and choose which they'll record (and most likely all but the lamest shows will be saved, thus providing a giant libary on the network) whats stopping them or wrorng with them from turning this into on demand with a new name / price point?
--
Webmaster Steve
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dadkins
Merry Whatever
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | Three Words Build Your Own. | |
| | chuckkk
join:2001-11-10
Warner Robins, GA | Re: Three Words The DMA compliant devices encrypt the recorded material. | |
| | 
curiousbutrue
@verizon.net
| who's to tell? Don't a few companies already have limited ON DEMAND "DVR" type services already? Do these other companies (verizon too) have permission to do this?
I wonder if they want, or 'DEMAND' new fees for the cable sevice which they ALREADY to pay for. Who should have to PAY to RECORD such content, regardless of the technology, or where it's housed, or the transmission lines used.
Content companies are still LUCKY people want to PAY for content, what with the internet and all. Lots of people are cancelling their "PAY-TV premium movie channels and loading up BITTORRENT, making their OWN DVD quality copies!!
Make the PAY services MORE EXPENSIVE AT THEIR OWN RISK, INCLUDING DVR!!
its nice to see cablevison on a better side of an issue, what with all their problems of customer retention. | |
| hawgcaller
join:2006-04-24
Stafford, TX
| Perhaps this is good for the consumer (viewer) Maybe the viewer will finally get some powerful support for fair use rights. The Cablevision statement says as much. If Cablevision has some skin in the game (they want to make money) then they will fight to make sure their customers can time-shift which will help stop the erosion of our rights (even those of use who aren't Cablevision customers). Now all we need to do is convince them that commercial skipping is a god given right so that I can have a clean HD skipping solution when my ReplayTV dies.
-phil | |
| | 
MisterMarcus
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Not likely. If the information is stored on the servers, so too are the details of what's being viewed. What's to say the cable cos don't meta the commercials in such a way that your FF/Pause functions are disabled whenever a commercial is being displayed? Theoretically they could do that now on a channel-by-channel basis, but then some newer machines allow for direct time skips - basically, you can jump to a particular frame without needing to FF. Storing the information on the servers removes that capability.
All paranoia aside, the only way I would support this would be if the cable cos invested the money to store EVERY show at EVERY time on EVERY day and retained them for 1 week. That would allow me to go back in time and view a show that I might have missed; maybe I didn't know it was on or something.
Other than that, I think this is a bad idea. | |
| | | disc
join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC
| Re: Not likely. said by MisterMarcus :What's to say the cable cos don't meta the commercials in such a way that your FF/Pause functions are disabled whenever a commercial is being displayed? I think you just found a good way to get the content industry on board. Show them the advertising dollars.
said by MisterMarcus :the only way I would support this would be if the cable cos invested the money to store EVERY show at EVERY time on EVERY day and retained them for 1 week. That would allow me to go back in time and view a show that I might have missed; maybe I didn't know it was on or something. I think you just found a good way to get subscribers interested. Show them an easy to use service that gives maximum flexibility.
Sounds like a win/win to me. | |
| | chuckkk
join:2001-11-10
Warner Robins, GA | Re: Perhaps this is good for the consumer (viewer) Actually is bad, because the provider can insert commercials anywhere at any time they choose. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
edit:
May 25th, @12:17PM
| I wonder when The MPAA is going to get around to suing, Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, etc for having the unmitigated gall to sell 500 gig hard drives, I mean look at what the bums who own these thing do, 700 plus hours of TV programing, grrrr!, 100 plus hours of HDTV, damn crooks! and, and, and...bit-torrent, %#@**&88$@$^^! 
--
The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. | |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
| Re: I wonder when said by Transmaster :The MPAA is going to get around to suing, Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, etc for having the unmitigated gall to sell 500 gig hard drives, I mean look at what the bums who own these thing do, 700 plus hours of TV programing, grrrr!, 100 plus hours of HDTV, damn crooks! and, and, and...bit-torrent, %#@**&88$@$^^! Don't forget the new 750g from Seagate How many hours does that beast hold? | |
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DHRacer
Fire Survivor
join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: I wonder when According to this Seagate box I have sitting on my desk, the 750GB drive holds 750 hours of VHS-quality video.
Now I guess that's assuming you store nothing else but that on the drive.
Still, that's 31.25 days of video, non-stop 24/7. That'd be a lot of TV watching.
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"No one will believe you solved this problem in one day! We've been working on it for months. Now, go act busy for a few weeks and I'll let you know when it's time to tell them." (R&D Supervisor, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing /3M Corp.) | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
| Re: I wonder when 750 gigs !!!! holycow. I never thought I would need something like this until I got hooked on Bit-Torrent and downloading Time Team episodes.
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The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. | |
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Cablevision Sued for Network 'DVR' Plan
Rediculous, MPAA has gone too far!