 bgraham
join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY | Is this the end of the internet as we know it? Once ISP's start blocking whatever ports they feel fit it will spell the end of the internet as we know it. | |
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quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
 ·TDS
| Re: Is this the end of the internet as we know it? said by bgraham  :Once ISP's start blocking whatever ports they feel fit it will spell the end of the internet as we know it. Welcome to the world of un-regulated service. Do I smell the Bell System of 1889? | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | why would i want their service ? Okay, i have a choice of isps, why would i pick their over someones with no restrictions ? Even if i dont use high bandwith apps ? | |
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| bgraham
join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: why would i want their service ? Until FIOS appears locally here on long island we don't have many choices plus when one ISP does it so will the competition. I can see the day fast approaching when ISP's like OOL and Verizon only allow their own VOIP and block all others.
Most ISP's want Ma and Pa checking their email, do a bit of online banking and thats all. Block VOIP, cripple Usenet, disconect large downloads every 2 hours... more soon to come... | |
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| | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| It's gonna happen more and more ... Hey,
ISP's see that people are willing to pay per-bit for certain bitstreams. They pay phone companies, or VOIP companies, per-bit for long-distance telephony. They pay cable companies per-bit for video, in the form of "digital cable". So of course alot of them are going to set up these so-called "walled gardens".
Only two things would stop them: competition, or regulation. As others have said, there's little or no broadband competition in most areas. As for regulations, the FCC has issued "voluntary" guidelines against this, but the guidelines have no teeth. With the current let-big-corporations-do-whatever-they-want mindset in D.C., that's not going to change. | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| I love this quote... quote:
McClure believes that operators have the right to dictate what types of traffic flow in and out of their networks. “Some people have the idea that if you go out and invest and build technology somehow you should just give it away to anybody who wants it,” McClure says.
Yes, those crazy customers paying you for bandwidth and then expecting their VoIP service to work - damn them. | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Albany, NY
| Re: I love this quote... Or how about this quote:
If they decide to block VOIP, so be it; consumers will vote with their feet. The problem with that is that many consumers don't have a choice of broadband providers. For many, there is only one provider, maybe two. That doesn't give them much room to "vote with their feet." (Going back to dial-up isn't a viable alternative to broadband if your goal is to get VoIP to work properly.)
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
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Pz_
join:2001-03-31
Brownsburg, IN
clubs:
| Re: I love this quote... You know, I got Vonage to work on dial up once. Two modems shotgunned with internet sharing. It sounded like crap and was more proof of concept than utility. Still, was kind of interesting.  | |
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Steve
ho ho ho dammit
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| And I loved this quote: said by the article:
Consumer VOIP providers such as Vonage make money by delivering their service over the last-mile networks of ISPs. ISPs do not share in that wealth. How is VOIP different from any other kind of pay service, such as streaming DI.FM music (monthly subscription), a porno site (monthly subscription), or online gaming (monthly subscription). In none of these cases does the ISP get a cut of anything other than what they charge for the circuit (monthly subscription).
This seems like really unprincipled reasoning to me.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site | |
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| | xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
clubs:  | DI still offers free service...I don't use them, but I know they are there.
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4 More years and we won't have a country. | |
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Steve
ho ho ho dammit
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: I love this quote... said by xrobertcmx :DI still offers free service... They won't for long if nobody pays: I pay.
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site | |
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| | | | xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
clubs: | Re: I love this quote... 3 month Gold subscriber myself. | |
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| | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
 ·Packet8
 ·Cox HSI
| said by Steve :They won't for long if nobody pays: I pay. Good choice in music...
--
64 bit CPUs and OSes? That's so 1996.
Since the dawn of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun. -CM Burns | |
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ssj4android
Redefining Reality
join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI | Re: I love this quote... I'll stick with Chronix. Good music, and free. | |
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| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| If they are upset about this then they can apply this same stupid logic to anything that requires a fee over the internet.
They can demand %'s of Ad income, order profits, monthly subscription fees, or even 1 time subscription fees to anything and everything that charges one on the internet.
Which simply shows the flaw in these greedy bastards logic. | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Albany, NY
| This just in: The phone company has realized they aren't sharing in the wealth produced by calls to the Home Shopping Network. Therefore, Verizon is now blocking all calls to HSN. Luckily, you can still call the Verizon Shopping Network to buy similar items at a similar price.
All joking aside, I think the only reason that the ISPs are targeting VoIP is that they want to leave open the possibility of rolling out their own VoIP solution and don't want any pesky competition should they decide to do so.
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
edit:
March 30th, @04:20PM
| Re: I love this quote... Considering the Darwinian bloodshed that's going to occur as 8 million VoIP providers try to flood the market over the next three years, I really don't think incumbent providers (in this case Bell Canada in concert with Clearwire) have much to worry about.
They (MSO's, bells) own the government, and the government will ensure they dominate smaller independent carriers. Users will get VoIP from the same company they're getting TV/broadband from, anyway - which thanks to government will be the incumbents. There won't be a need to block competing services. | |
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RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| I don't agree with port blocking or traffic filtering in general, but at least Clearwire put it in the material provided to customers, upfront. Seems that anyone truly "expecting their VoIP service to work" would seek an alternate provider which didn't have foolish terms of service such as "without limitation, block and allow traffic types as we see fit at any time." | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| ISP == Internet Service Provider. As to what 'services' are provided is at the discretion of the ISP, no? As a customer and consumer you can take their version of a service offering or shove it. But that is exactly how many ISPs feel, and to a certain extent I agree. | |
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jaxdomino
join:2001-12-01
Jacksonville, FL
·Axvoice
| Re: I love this quote... The 'service' in Internet Service Provider' refers to the fact that they provide INTERNET access, nothing else! so you are wrong and so are they.
I am a perfect example of Clearwire blocking VoIP. I am a Lingo customer and I switched my BellSouth number over to Lingo last week 3/25/05. Well BellSouth turned off my telephone AND DSL! No problem. I borrowed my mom's Clearwire receiver and hooked it up at my house. Go figure, no VoIP. Lingo had no clue as to why it wasn't working. Called BellSouth Monday asked for my number back from Lingo, they told me it would be 14 days! Called Comcast the same day and Tuesday 3/29, I was surfing and talking. Point being, I would have stuck with Clearwire and became a customer, since I got great signal strength in my house and it was ok speed-wise. Because they block VoIP, screw them and I'm sure once enough people get wind of this, they'll walk also. If they have a choice as I did. For a company not even a year old, they are taking a big gamble. I wouldn't invest them. | |
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meathismoms
@24.48.x.x
| Re: I love this quote... "The 'service' in Internet Service Provider' refers to the fact that they provide INTERNET access, nothing else! so you are wrong and so are they.
"
I'll leave open dhcp, dns and 80 for your browser. You can still browse the ' internet ' , you have access.
I guess it depends on what the ToS states. | |
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| | | | CaptSternn
Sternn Heavy Industries
join:2002-05-24
Overland Park, KS | Re: I love this quote... The Internet is more than just "web surfing". What you describe is a Web Service Provider. Sounds like a pretty limited business model to me. | |
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jaxdomino
join:2001-12-01
Jacksonville, FL | Re: I love this quote... That's ,my point. If you are a INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER, then provide the Internet unfiltered. If you want to block what you want then call your self a WEB SERVICE PROVIDER. Or as in the case of @OL an Online Service PERIOD It works for them. | |
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| bradleym
join:2002-08-05
Dunfermline, IL | The most absurd thing about that quote is the 'give it away' as if we're not actually PAYING for this 'service' that they invested in and built. This McClure guy is a lunatic. | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| I say we endure a national cancel your broadband service month. Let's say come June 1st eveyone in USA cancels their broadband service and see where it get's you.
Oh, I bet the majority won't do it as its easier for them to live in bondage then fight for freedom. LOL | |
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EFudd
Premium
join:2001-09-08
Brownsville, OH
| Heres another quote from the article:
“As much as I want to see VOIP survive and thrive, I also don't want to bear the additional cost of my customers choosing to use a competitor's VOIP service over my own,” says Greg Boehnlein, who operates Cleveland, Ohio-based ISP N2Net.
“Without control of the last mile, we're screwed,” Boehnlein says, “which is why I can identify with Clearwire's decision and say ‘more power to them’.”
Talk about greedy control freaks. I hope they go under. This kind of thing wouldn't be happening at all if we had true competition in broadband they way we had it with dial-up.
BTW- anyone notice a bug thats popped up twice in our responses? I believe its called coldwater or filteredcold or some such thing. I've managed to shoo the pest away both times though. Looks like the rest of you have had shoo the thing away as well..... 
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Do you SetiAtHome | As you place limits and controls on me, you place them on yourselves. | |
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pablo4
Proud Owner Of The Cornballer
join:2004-08-11
Kanata, ON
| Bandwith Usage Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't voip a relatively low bandwidth user? Isn't the problem with customers demanding a more reliable "last mile" network?
How many megs of traffic is actually used by voip? Certainly noting compared to BitTorrent traffic or any P2P software for that matter.
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Networking: WRT54G V2 /ISP: Rogers Extreme /VoIP: Vonage | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| Re: Bandwith Usage »www.vonage.com/help_knowledgeBas···gory=148
The Bandwidth Saver feature allows you to control the sound quality of your call to save valuable bandwidth. Customers with 128 Kbps connections often choose the Normal Sound Quality setting on our Dashboard. This saves bandwidth and still provides excellent call quality.
To activate the Bandwidth Saver Feature, access your web account and select the Features page:
Step Action
1.
Select the phone number you want the bandwidth saver to apply to.
2.
Click the Configure button located under Bandwidth Saver
3.
Select the white circle on the left-hand side under "30 Kbps" (or the Kbps setting of choice)
4.
Click Submit to save the selection
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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pablo4
Proud Owner Of The Cornballer
join:2004-08-11
Kanata, ON
edit:
March 30th, @02:07PM
| Re: Bandwith Usage I knew that.
My statement was more an observation than a request for technical help.
I am very familiar with my Vonage account and have played with many of the features.
All I am trying to say is that VoIP is not the bandwidth hog that ISP claim.
Its a red herring.
ISPs don't like VoIP customers because they demand a reliable network that provides consistent access to bandwidth, not large quantities of bandwidth. | |
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J D McDorce
Premium
join:2001-12-29
Westland, MI
edit:
March 30th, @02:40PM
| Re: Bandwith Usage said by pablo4 :All I am trying to say is that VoIP is not the bandwidth hog that ISP claim. I agree completely. For my specific Vonage account, the Bandwidth Saver option allows me to select between 30 kbps and 90 kbps. Considering the times that I queue and download items from newsgroups (often in excess of 5 Mbps), Vonage at the max setting is a mere drop in the bucket. | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
edit:
March 30th, @03:50PM
| likewise....I thought this "bandwidth hog" should be exposed for its 30k usage. LOL
The real answer I think can be found right here.....typical Bell abuse...(though I didn't think this applied to our friends to the North).....sigh
While he did not offer any details on the expected arrival or pricing of Clearwire's own VoIP service, Salemme did say that VoIP "is a very important part of our portfolio, and we want to get it out there as quickly as possible." Salemme said Clearwire chose Bell Canada's offering based on its technical merits, which he said the company deemed superior to those currently available, such as the CallVantage service from AT&T. As part of its agreement, Bell Canada also invested $100 million in Clearwire, and will have a representative on Clearwire's board. Intel Captial, the chip company's venture arm, has also invested in Clearwire.
According to Vonage, it was able to resolve its customer's issues by changing the SIP port number for the end-user device. After the change, the customer was able to use Vonage's service again, Vonage's Shulz said.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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| Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | 30k lmao a large everquest 2 patch(expansion/voice over downloads) at full speed from the SOE patch servers is eating up 400k/sec+
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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anonanon
@client.atlant | mclure is a toad, by the Doonesbury definition | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA | How long until... VoIP providers set up an encrypted VPN tunnel between them and the end-user so the ISP can't identify VoIP traffic from other streaming data? | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | We dont want your business So clearwire is saying that if you use 45k for voip on there system they dont want you. But if you visting high graphic sites they do. So if your only reason to get them for surfing and voip, they lost a customer. | |
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See 14 replies to this post |
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MontyMan
Premium
join:2004-08-16
Parkville, MD
| Doubletalk This has nothing to do with high bandwidth applications or blocking traffic types. It is about partnering.
According to the Seattle Times, Clearwire has partnered with Bell Canada to provide VOIP over its network.
»seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b···tion=rss | |
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| Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| And there we have it! It's all about the mighty dollar and greedy corps.
I would simply state that if they are blocking traffic from a company so that they can profit from allowing another company they are violating some kind of law.
I would compare this to your state government partnering with Ford and then not allowing anyone that is not in a Ford to drive on the state roads. Sure there may be private and national roads you can get around to many places with, but the use of them is a big burden on you and still prevents you from getting to places sometimes. | |
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| hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
March 30th, @05:31PM
| Re: Excuse me Cox? said by xrobertcmx :I pay for access to the internet at $39.99 a month, that is their cut. If Cox HSI starts blocking VOIP then I walk as I will need to reconnect my land line and Verizon DSL is less expensive. Sure there is a bandwidth hit, but I need to recoup the increased cost for telephone service from somewhere else and that $10 a month looks like a good start. And then back to Satalite for tele because that is $5.00 a month less as well and I still have the dish in the basement. The fact is they get a cut, I need highspeed access to get the service to begin with, without the service I don't the access. And I will admit the companies do own the networks that we pay for access to, but as long as I do not break the law or run a business using my residential access, or impact the usage of other customers I see no reason to restict my usage and since it is my money paying for that access I can walk. Customers can vote with their money and impact business decision by hurting revenue, it just seems like we are putting up with too much lately and just accepting it. At least here VZ DSL is less expensive than cable and has the same download(3 megs) and better upload. Since calling just about anywhere here is long distance i have the unlimited LD plan as well. Not too shabby..YMMV.
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God Bless
»www.emmanuelcomputerconsulting.com
-- carpe ductum -- "Grab the tape" | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| I'm against this Clearly it should be illegal for a company to block VOIP as that restricts free speech. The FCC I believe said just as much. Also many ISP's have default monopoly status on certain segments on the population. For them to block VOIP and provide their own solution in a use it or use nothing attitude automatically voids their default monopoly protections in that case as now they are attempting to squash competition.
Also their quote in the AUP does not hold water. So basically they could restrict everything down to AOLIM and web traffic, block FTP, Torrent and any other download service and still claim to be a ISP? I doubt it.
This company risks the backlash of it's customers and unfortunately if enough complaints roll in the FCC will get serious with them and that 15,000 fine another company incurred will look like pocket change.
Disclaimer: I'm not sure if clearwire was the mexican ISP or a ISP in the USA. If it's a ISP in Mexico then none of the above can really apply. | |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA | Re: I'm against this The free speach argument doesn't hold water. The Bill of Rights is there to prevent abuses by the government.
The first amendment doesn't apply to non-governmental organizations or individuals. | |
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pablo4
Proud Owner Of The Cornballer
join:2004-08-11
Kanata, ON | Re: I'm against this Agreed. Cable providers are not obligated to give you unresrticed access to the Playboy or Al Jazeera channels as a matter of free speech.
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Networking: WRT54G V2 /ISP: Rogers Extreme /VoIP: Vonage | |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | I said this before and I will say it again...... First it was newsgroups, then it was P2P, and now VOIP.
How many more types of "bandwidth hogs" are the broadband companies going to target before you won't be able to do anything but lightly surf and check email for $60/month? | |
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senatedon
join:2002-03-18
Harrisburg, PA | Knew it would happen sooner, not later. We had a thread on this subject in the VoIP forum back in December.
I raised this issue then. Some poopooed it, some agreed with me that it would happen.
»AT&T CV and COX Problems 12/20/04 | |
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ricep5
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Jacksonville, FL
·Comcast Formerly ..
·AT&T CallVantage
·AT&T Southeast
| I am a Clearwire customer I am a Clearwire customer. I have used AT&T CallVantage on Clearwire with no problems whatsoever.
The timing is suspect on Vonage. Clearwire just announced they are getting into the VoIP biz using their wireless spectrum as the entry point with customers.
Of all the apps I have used on my Clearwire link, I have not had any blockage. The time my service was interupted was due to a failed update at Clearwire and DHCP went down.
Perhaps Vonage is getting a little pre-emptive here. (or paranoid?) | |
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Dan
Professor Lava Hot
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Eh?
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Mod the voip service than. I am sure if vonage really wanted to by-pass this they would figure a way to randomize port access, and make the data streams different.
Or atleast how long until some linux group releases a new firewall that adds packets to voip data to confuse the traffic shapping technology?
This is something we will figure out how to over come.
--
Looks like another ID 10 T error. | |
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Blocking VoIP, Other Apps
