said by aaron83_01 :

This sounds like a good idea.

said by amigo_boy :

I agree, but be prepared for the hobby radio users will scream about how it may pollute radio spectrum (even through their user group, AARL has approved a BPL implementation). Hobby radio is supposed to be useful in disasters (although why their numbers are dwindling, or why they exchanged bandwidth for ease of use (morse code for voice), or how hobby television serves that goal).

Mark

said by Camelot One :

I'm still confused on the logic. I see that hobby radio is useful during disasters, but wouldn't a disaster that required hobby radio (namely, loss of power/phone) mean the BPL would be down anyway?

said by tenbase :

you think "hobby radio users" are the only folks with serious complaints about this technology?

They're the only ones I hear about, even though their advocacy group has approved BPL.

On a personal level, even if there were interference (which their advocacy group has apparently said their won't be, at least with one implementation), I'm just not as certain as hobbyists that their hobby is *that* important. If BPL presented even a marginal benefit to society (which it may not), I think it would be legitimate to do away with hobby radio.

I've heard all the arguments about how it serves a public good. But, even radio hobbyists know that it's a matter of degrees. 10-20 years ago the reasoning for morse code was that it was best suited in disasters. It used less power, intelligible under worse conditions, and it wasn't susceptible to equipment damage (like a microphone).

Well, 10-20 years later, and the ranks of radio hobbyists thinning, morse code was tossed overboard in the interest of gaining a larger membership (people to have "fun" as one member of this forum put it last time). That's understandable. But, it also shows that even radio hobbyists aren't impervious to sacrificing their hobby (or its stated goals) in the name of popularity.

said by tenbase :

I'm glad I live in a country where individuals and minorities have rights, and repugnant socialist concepts such as this rarely gain traction.

said by tenbase :

You do realize that there are many, many ways to communicate over the air besides morse code and voice, right? I can think of more than a dozen narrow and robust digital modes right off the top of my head.

said by tenbase :

Here's some irony for ya - you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum - that means anyone who passes a simple test can use it - in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution. Exactly what "public good" is being served by this, when the technology being touted has already existed for decades in the form of low-frequency, non-interfering PLC?

Amateur Radio is not a US-only hobby, it is recognized and protected by international treaty, and virtually every country in the world issues licenses for the tiny slivers of spectrum allocated to the service. The HF spectrum is not confined to borders either, signals in this band can easily propagate worldwide, unlike with any other part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Thus, it is well worth defending from ill-conceived, half-baked techno-junk such as HF BPL/PLC.

Finally, the rules regarding morse code as a license requirement were in place due to international treaty, and had nothing to do with "hobbyists". Once the treaty requirement went away, the FCC later dropped the licensing requirement. All NPRM comments both for and against dropping the requirement are public record and available on the FCC website for all to see.

And yes, there are plenty of idiots on the air, just like there are plenty of idiots on the interweb. Neither bother me much. As in the real world, you just have to take the bad with the good and avoid the fools when you can.

said by tenbase :

you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum ... in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution.

said by tenbase :

recognized and protected by international treaty,

said by tenbase :

Finally, the rules regarding morse code as a license requirement were in place due to international treaty, and had nothing to do with "hobbyists".

said by tenbase :

And yes, there are plenty of idiots on the air, just like there are plenty of idiots on the interweb. Neither bother me much. As in the real world, you just have to take the bad with the good and avoid the fools when you can.

said by amigo_boy :

Not advocating. Just suggesting that it should be on the table. It's not sacred. And, it's less popular than it was 20-30 years ago. Even hobbyists recognize this. It was a large part of the argument for doing away with the Morse code requirement.

The result is that bandwidth and intelligibility was sacrificed. If hobbyists can do it to themselves, I don't see why society can't. It may be undesirable for a number of reasons. But, hobbyists have already demonstrated perfection is situational.

said by amigo_boy :

That's an odd position. Public airwaves are, well, public. Like parks, the public giveth, and the public taketh away depending on competing interests.

said by tenbase :

Further, the BPL you are referring to which has been tentatively "approved" by the ARRL (which only represents about 1/6th of licensed amateurs in the United States incidentally), does not use HV or MV power lines as a data path, it uses Canopy wireless, with only the LV lines leading into the home or business actually carrying a data signal.

said by PDXPLT :

That's not true. What you describe is the Motorola system. Not all systems that the ARRL think is OK used this. The system used by Current Communications most definitely uses the MV lines, without causing harmful interference.

The fact of the matter is that utilities have been using "carrier current" systems for a long time, and no one noticesd.

Than a few years ago some hacks tried to get into the business of using it for Broadband Access, the next Great Thing and a sure way to make themselves rich. They did a lousy job implementing it, and didn't know or care enough to mitigate interference issues. So now we have forums such as this, where no one make any distinctions and treats all BPL as equally bad.

said by syco_glen :

Why is it that whenever BPL comes up that Amateur Radio gets beat up on. I wonder what most people use the internet for? Isn't it a hobby for most people? What is the difference?

said by amigo_boy :

About 14 bazillion users of the internet, versus a few hundred thousand radio hobbyists?

Mark

said by Mactron :

So the majority gets to step on the rights of the minority ?

said by amigo_boy :

About 14 bazillion users of the internet, versus a few hundred thousand radio hobbyists?

said by Transmaster :

You better hope Billery doesn't get into office they are so money grubbing everything will be for sale.

said by morbo :

sigh. more fear mongering by little republicans. nothing like seeing grown men afraid of a strong woman.

said by gaforces :

Oh yah, more money for Duke Energy and the Bush family. Changing energy costs on the fly with their new grid technology! They will of course, require a direct connection to your bank account.

said by whizkid3 :

Under the guise of ecology, the Bush Administration now wants all electric customers to have to purchase electricity through the same system. Just like oil prices are dramatically boosted through speculation; soon our electricity will be doing the same. No more will we have a fixed rate, subject to public service commission oversight and control; but our rates will be at the whim of speculators using a complex varying market formula that the most consumers will not be able to comprehend.

said by aaron83_01 :

This sounds like a good idea. It could eliminate meter readers.