  GbcueP.E.Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:8 | Clamping Down Just another greedy money grab.
They already pay for the data, let the customer use it as they wish.
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My Blog 2.2 | |
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 | | | Re: Clamping Down and that is why i use my computer at home and i use my phone as a dumb phone while millions of you run to your iphones and smart phones and then i watch you get hosed.
until i see unlimited plans for life with no bullshit charges i will stick to my dumb phone and not give these companies anymore of my money that i have to give. | |
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| | | | Lower charges for the rest of us! Because of all of the money AT&T is going to save by kicking all of the freeloaders off of the unlimited plan in the interest of fairness.. One can only assume the rest of the customer base will see significantly lower data charges! Good news.
Yeah, sarcasm. | |
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| | | | Re: Clamping Down said by gorehound:and that is why i use my computer at home and i use my phone as a dumb phone while millions of you run to your iphones and smart phones and then i watch you get hosed.
until i see unlimited plans for life with no bullshit charges i will stick to my dumb phone and not give these companies anymore of my money that i have to give.
Not on AT&T and never will be, but I couldn't agree more with your assessment!
People have gotten so ridiculously addicted to their little electronic gadgets, it's insane, but most of them will be dumb enough to keep feeding these money hungry, uncaring companies.
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The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ | |
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| | | at&t's motto (to paraphrase Queen): "We will, we will... screw you!" | |
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Reviews:
 ·justhost
| Small Percents Everything at AT&T is small percentages including the wireless & wire-line footprint for high speed reliable services.
All joking aside I see no real difference in the "two data plans". Data is data whether it is from a smartphone or a attached PC. Yeah PC data users use more data than smartphone but you shouldn't have to buy a separate plan, and if you are "forced to" like in this case, you should get more data than what is allotted to the smartphone.
You want to treat PC / Smartphone data separate, how about making separate plans for each rather than a carbon copy. Make it worthwhile to upgrade to tether. | |
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|  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
 ·row44
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Small Percents said by Screavics:PC data users use more data than smartphone
That is not true.
Some people use more data on their smartphones than on PCs and others use more data on a PC. Everyone uses their devices differently.
ATT sells service to a GSM device, how you use that device is not for ATT to dictate or limit. ATTs control ends at your antenna on the device that you 100% own.
If ATT wanted to limit you they would have built their own proprietary network and leased you phones and not used GSM where you can use a phone that you 100% paid for.
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...brought to you by Carl's Jr. | |
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| | Explain this At&t. So, you can do anything you want with an iPhone on the unlimited plan as long as you aren't tethering. Or tether, use the same amount of data (say 10 gigs for this example both tethered and not). What difference does it make? Why the hell should you get money for tethering? You deliver the bits from point A to B regardless of whether or not it's tethered. You did nothing to make the tethering capability possible, so if anything shouldn't Apple get the $20 since they made it?
MMMMMONEYYYYY GRABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
If anyone gets the letter, start downloading everything possible from the interwebz. Rack up terabytes of usage.
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Core i7 920 @ 3.5ghz | OCZ Obsidian 6GB 1600mhz DDR3 RAM | EVGA X58 tri SLI-LE mobo | EVGA GTX 570 | Antec 750w PSU | OCZ Vertex 2 120GB SSD | WD Black 1TB HDD | Antec 1200 Case | G15 keyboard | G9x mouse | G35 Headset | Asus 23" LED-LCD | |
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|  TCubPremium
join:2008-09-03
Olmsted Falls, OH
kudos:4 | Re: Explain this At&t. Because the odds of you using 10GB of data on an iPhone are slim... Those odds sound much better when you're on a computer.
Believe me - I don't condone this behavior and I HATE AT&T with a passion. Yes. Literally hate.. Pure, scathing, dark hatred. They are criminals.
My solution? I use Verizon... it's nearly impossible to download even 2GB of data in a month with their 3G network! 
Really though I use WiFi mostly. I was hoping to see if I could keep it under 250MB and see if I could switch plans but alas... If only Verizons 2GB plan actually cost less... sheesh... Or if they had a 1GB plan for like $15.. I'd totally do it. Not happily but it's cheaper and it fits my needs better. That is, as long as they continue to have the slowest 3G network ever.
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|  Duramax08Win8 sucksPremium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX | When i got the letter back then, I downloaded about 50gb in a week or so just downloading steam games over and over again. 2 days before the deadline I called in and told them i stopped tethering. Good times.......... | |
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| | Just frickin' silly.... Yeah this just about does it for me. I think I'm ready to leave AT&T as this is ridiculous. Networks just don't work the way these idiots want to charge me for the service.
I'm already paying for the data connection, unlimited or not. What difference does it make which device generates the traffic? I'M STILL PAYING FOR IT! | |
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| | | Re: Just frickin' silly.... AT&T tried this back when they were ma bell and required you to use AT&T equipment to use the service. if you didn't it was illegal. | |
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Duramax08Win8 sucksPremium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX | so either way if they catch you tethering they are going to put you on a lower GB plan. So the only difference is that they wont notify you anymore? | |
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| Duramax08Win8 sucksPremium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Cricket Broadband
| Re: so And to the people that think they can tether alittle like 200 mb or less, they know. My sister use to tether to her laptop just to do emails and such and she got the email. So yeah, watch out. Now excuse me while I replay lord of the rings over and over again with my awesome unlimited plan. | |
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| | And yet they keep gaining customers. Unless customers leave in masses, nothing will change. With all the talk about how bad these caps are, why are people not leaving? Because of the phone they have? Contract (which are not forever, they do expire)? Sprint still has truly unlimited, but they are not gaining hordes of customers (I'm a Sprint customer, by the way). So I don't know if this really is a big deal to people. Or is this like complaining about government, and not even trying to vote? | |
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| | | Re: And yet they keep gaining customers. Long term contracts, ETFs, exclusive handset deals and limited competition (limited companies with quality coverage) go a long, long way in determining what people will and won't tolerate. | |
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| |  RRedlineRated RPremium
join:2002-05-15
Williamsport, PA | Re: And yet they keep gaining customers. People fall for marketing tricks as well. Excellent marketing can do wonders, even when you are selling an inferior product or service.
OMG, I can video chat with my friends with an AT&T iPhone?
"Yes...just not with AT&T's service." --
One nation, under Zod! | |
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 Matt3All noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Also ... They also sent a notice to business customers today that if you don't perform a device wipe/reload, they will not honor your phone warranty.
Here is their exact wording:
1) Ensure that they have the mobile device in hand for full troubleshooting with the AT&T agent. (or you can bridge with the end user, since you do not allow them to process warranty exchanges alone)
2) Update or reload software to the device in most cases
3) Save data prior to the reload if a wipe and reload is required
4) If callers do not want to, or are not able to perform the above requirements, they should seek another resolution to their issue other than a warranty exchange. | |
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|  sivranOpera convertPremium
join:2003-09-15
Arlington, TX
kudos:1 | Re: Also ... And the problem with that is....what, exactly? | |
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 EdrickI aspire to tell the story of a lifetimePremium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA | Makes Sense The likely hood you are going to be using 5+ GB a month just via the iPhone is highly unlikely it's also unlikely you'll be downloading for extended periods of time. However you add a computer into the mix or sharing with multiple computers now you're saturating up that pipe and causing issues for the users who a) pay for the tethering or b) don't use tethering but now are suffering poor network performance cause of the few greedy people.
Also the argument that you can use 10 GB on the iPhone but not via a PC and they should be treated equally makes no sense. As they're not equals. In fact if you're using 10 gigs of data on your phone alone i can't imagine how much more you're going to use on a PC tethered to it.
Don't like it cancel your service and stick it to them.
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Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com | |
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| KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Makes Sense data is data. if I watch Netflix on the phone its no different than if its watched on a tethered laptop.
the only reason they charge extra for the official tether is to make more raw profits.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | id almost compare better to state, why is it ok if a user consumes 5gb watching netflix on the phone but somehow I cause more network stress if I root and tether a phone and play WoW. which uses almost no bandwidth.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| |  bbeesleyVIP
join:2003-08-07
Richardson, TX
kudos:5 | said by zeddlar: So called network congestion problems called that by the companies are exposed as faulty, outdated and neglected equipment.... Do some research.
It would probably be more appropriate for your to back up you claim with a citation or reference to the research you are quoting
btw...as an AT&T subscriber, I find it particularly annoying that they want to charge me to tether but I knew this going into the contract and I signed and accepted their terms
sadly, it was the best option available
I am hopeful that competition from emerging wireless providers will continue to put pressure on larger, more established companies to make their data plans more flexible and amenable but I am not holding my breath because I don't see it happening soon
The good news is that the availability of wireless data is much better than it was even a few short years ago. While the plans aren't exactly cheap, it is pretty amazing that we are even arguing about whether we should be able to download gigabytes of data via our cell phones | |
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innoman-Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | How can they know? I didn't think they could tell. This is really starting to get old. It's my data plan, I should be able to use it as I please. I think the most data I have used in the past year in a given month is 4GB, usually much less than 2GB most months. | |
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| | | Re: How can they know? they can read your packets and see what you are doing. it's pretty easy to tell what web browser you are using when you break apart http packets.
solution: secured vpn. | |
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| | innoman-Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | Re: How can they know? Well yeah, they could totally do that but it's going a bit far. I do have secure VPN setup but it's flaky, I need to do some work on it. | |
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|  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | said by innoman:I didn't think they could tell. I'm sure the phone reports you.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | innoman-Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | Re: How can they know? I don't think it works quite like that. But anything is possible. It is all going over the same APN. | |
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| flbas1
join:2010-02-03
Fort Lauderdale, FL | background windows updates (for windows or windows-only programs)
browser packet sniffing - specifically looking at user agent string - maybe get Safari on your PC and change the string to claim it is an iPhone? | |
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| | innoman-Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·VoicePulse
| Re: How can they know? These are all things they could do but it requires packet inspection and that's diving a little too deep in my opinion, ISPs should not be allowed to do that without court order (in my opinion at least). Besides, a device is fully capable of running a browser which returns a UA string response of a different browser.
To be honest, I rarely tether and usually just when I am at an airport that doesn't have wifi-- I also don't get crazy with it, I probably transfer, at most 200-300MB in a given month, max, over tethered connection. Most months, I don't tether much, if any, at all. I do use the hell out of some spotify syncing playlists, etc... | |
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| | | flbas1
join:2010-02-03
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: How can they know? said by innoman:but it requires packet inspection and that's diving a little too deep in my opinion, ISPs should not be allowed to do that without court order ISP's are doing packet inspection - court ordered or reasonable or not. They don't care - just sell the data and make more money. The average consumer doesn't understand how or why, and just accepts it. This is bad because your opinion (which I share) isn't generally accepted.
said by innoman:a browser which returns a UA string response of a different browser Again - Most people don't understand how or why.
(sarcasm)in the eyes of ATT, you sir are the reason the country is in disarray. You are the reason why national security is low ( »www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/jailbreak/ ). And you are the reason ATT needs to increase it's infrastructure ( »www.businessweek.com/magazine/co···4852.htm ) while only meeting street estimates ( »www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/techn···nes.html )
(/sarcasm)
I'm with you on this one too. If you are buying food from the grocery store, should you get different rates based on how you prepare it? I like the food analogy best because there are different ways to get food (large stores, small stores, etc) - and it spoils quickly - just like wireless data plans. Plan Data is only good for about 30 days, and then you have to buy a new bucket of GB's. | |
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| | | | innoman-Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | Re: How can they know? agreed!! on all counts.
I feel like there would be a case in court--if we were allowed to take it to court. | |
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| | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: How can they know? I love AT&T response. It effectively states "Binding Arbitration is only for us to deny what the customer wants, it's NOT for the customer to deny what we want! Duh!"
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | Can they tell for sure? Can they actually tell when you're using tethering or are they (like before) simply looking for the people using way more data than the rest and assuming they're tethering? Back then, I heard that some targeted customers could call them up and say that they streamed Pandora all day at work, and were let off the hook.
My iPhone is jailbroken, and I tether on occasion when necessary, but I don't replace my home Internet connection with it or anything, and I rarely go above 3 GB of data a month (5 once). Wondering if they've discovered a way to tell that you're using MyWi or if it's just a guessing game still. | |
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| | | Re: Can they tell for sure? Replying to my own post, via a post I found on ModMyI from today. In short, yes they can.
quote:
The APN used for tethering (broadband) is disabled by default on at&t's end unless a tethering plan is purchased. So, there's no way to enable 'broadband' APN to work without buying a tethering plan through at&t.
MyWi, TetherMe and PDANet all avoid this by using or allowing the default iPhone data APN (phone) to be used instead. So realistically, anyone using a means to tether without buying a plan is susceptible to this bull.
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| | | | Re: Can they tell for sure? What about if you use your iPhone as an access point for your iPad. My phone is JB and I use MyFi so my iPad can have Internet when I'm not at home. | |
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| flbas1
join:2010-02-03
Fort Lauderdale, FL | i read that they can determine by the amount of data you are using. If you use more than 4gb, then you must be tethering. (att rules - not mine). | |
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aximrPremium
join:2001-09-28
Wood Ridge, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| This is why the T-Moble deal should not be allowed. As we go from 4 carries to 3, so does the competition. What AT&T does to get more revenue from its customers, Verizon will follow shortly thereafter. And what Verizon does AT&T will follow. Sprint is becoming more and more irreverent, and we are left with 200 million users on Verizon and AT&T.
Anyone one who thinks the AT&T T-Mobile deal will not screw us all is just kidding themselves. | |
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| Duramax08Win8 sucksPremium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Cricket Broadband
| Re: One reason that I don't use an iAnything! "Earlier this year, we began sending letters, emails, and text messages to a small number of smartphone customers who use their devices for tethering but aren’t on our required tethering plan. Our goal here is fairness for all of our customers. (This impacts a only small percentage of our smartphone customer base.)"
Its not just about iphones, all smartphones in general. Maybe you are a lucky one and got tethering grandfathered in. | |
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| | Brazen That's a pretty brazen thing to do for a company that wants to merge with another one. It seems VERY anti consumer! Maybe someone approving the merger should look at this?  | |
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| | Catch-22 Their logic is circular. Heavy smart phone users kept their unlimited data plans at $5 extra to be able to use more than 2 GB without facing overages. Target users of data >2GB which have been shown to be a small percentage of the population. Accuse them of tethering and force them into 2 GB or more expensive plans.
Essentially there is no unlimited data anymore, AT&T has put the final nail in the coffin. Might as well just deactivate the grandfathered plans if they don't plan on honoring them anymore. | |
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Reviews:
 ·Charter
| Why can't you at least match verizon AT&T should at least match Verizon by allowing you to pay the $20 fee for 2gb of tethering data. I would do that but AT&T doesn't give me the choice. Offer me the choice before you crack down on me tethering by other means. They should allow you to keep unlimited data and pay the fee to obtain tethering but limit the tethering 2gb. | |
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 koolman2Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK | Tethering plan is 4 GB It's worth noting that sometime around when the iPhone got the personal hotspot functionality, the tethering plan started giving an extra 2 GB for no additional charge. So you get 4 GB now for $45 instead of 2 as before. | |
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|  MoracCat god
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
·Comcast
| Re: Tethering plan is 4 GB said by koolman2:It's worth noting that sometime around when the iPhone got the personal hotspot functionality, the tethering plan started giving an extra 2 GB for no additional charge. So you get 4 GB now for $45 instead of 2 as before.
In other words, to get tethering AT&T forces you to buy another 2 GB of data whether you will use it or not.
So if you regularly use around 1 GB of data while tethering in a non-approved way, you'll now be forced to pay for 4 GB of data just to enable official tethering. That's either $15 or $20 more a month depending if you are on the 2 GB or unlimited plan.
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The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
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|  algPassionately apatheticPremium
join:2001-04-10
Houston, TX
kudos:3
2 edits | said by koolman2:It's worth noting that sometime around when the iPhone got the personal hotspot functionality, the tethering plan started giving an extra 2 GB for no additional charge. So you get 4 GB now for $45 instead of 2 as before.
Yeah, I already use a lot of data so I went straight to the 4 GB plan with official tethering. Price per GB is slightly cheaper than on the 2 GB plan so you are not paying any sort of premium for official tethering assuming you are using at least 3 GB per month.
My pet issue is that even the 450 / 5,000 minute plan is way more than I'll ever use. I wouldn't mind seeing a 200 / 2,000 plan with no rollover for like $20/month.
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This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. | |
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| | koolman2Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK | Re: Tethering plan is 4 GB I agree. Last month I used 79 minutes total. The most I've used in the last six months is 160. I have about 5,500 rollover minutes.
I went to the official tethering and dropped my MiFi. Although the MiFi ends up being cheaper per month, I hate carrying another device with me. My ISP charges $20/month for unlimited use if you have a cable modem, so I was using that and had the 200 MB plan on my iPhone. | |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Just goes to show how competition in our "free market" .... .... doesn't exist and companies can do whatever they want and know it. | |
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BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH | Good They should just kill unlimited already. It's dead. However, they should also allow you to tether on a 2GB plan, and give you the option to not have overages, but throttling on the 2GB plan, so that you just pay for what you use. | |
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Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable
| I really don't get why Karl continues to lie in stories He knows very well that the $20 is not a "tethering fee", imposed "because they can". The tethering plan is 4GB for $45. The non-tethering plan is 2GB for $25. The extra $20 is for the extra 2GB, and is at the standard $10/GB rate. Tethering is free, but you have to have a minimum 4GB plan.
Seriously, I am wasting too much time here for this kind of ridiculously biased reporting. It's actually worse than ridiculously biased. It's intentionally deceptive, and pandering to a stupid audience who laps it up and doesn't bother checking the actual facts.
Either that, or Karl is the laziest reporter ever.
I've tried over months to politely point out the obvious bad reporting. It clearly is being ignored.
I think I'm out. The information I get here is not worth the load of crap "reporting" I have to wade through. | |
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| rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: I really don't get why Karl continues to lie in stories I think Karl sees the extra 2GB for $20 as a tethering fee. Why make users pay for $4GB just to tether. Why not let users get their 2GB any way they want? With overages at $10/GB, they'll pay the same for 4GB whether they tether or not.
I guess it's a way to get more monthly revenue. They probably also count on most folks never getting near the 2GB limit on the $25/month plan. If they let them tether, most would probably get a lot closer to the 2GB limit.
Personally, I paid the extra $15 and now I have 4GB and legal tethering/WiFi hotspot. It was only (*cough*) $15 more for me since I had the $30 unlimited plan. I really wanted tethering and it's been worth the extra $15.
One thing is for sure, now that I'm paying $45/month x 2 for two iPhone data plans, I often use tethering even when WiFi is available. I feel obligated to get my 4GB. I'm running behind this month. I'm 18 days into the billing cycle and I've only used 1,500MB.
Of course my cell phone bill is approaching $200/month and when my iPhone contracts are up next summer, I'll be shopping for a better value. There may not be any better value but I sure hope so. I can remember my first new car payment was only $230/month on a 60 month loan. How times have changed when my phone bill is like a car payment (of course that was over 20 years ago but...) | |
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| | Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: I really don't get why Karl continues to lie in stories It's important to call things what they are. It's a 4GB data plan with tethering thrown in for free. Or if you wish, if you want tethering, you need to sign up for a 4GB plan.
It's as if you were buying a magazine subscription and the deal was if you bought a second one as a gift they send you a free jacket. Then you get on the Internet and complain about how much they charge for the jacket, "because they can".
Obviously the real motive behind this is to further the concept that all ISPs should be dumb pipes and have unlimited or hard-capped plans. That is why Karl doesn't like ISPs differentiating ANY kind of connection, including tethering. But instead of just saying that, he resorts to bogus statements like "AT&T has a $20 tethering fee." | |
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| | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: I really don't get why Karl continues to lie in stories I disagree that magazines and jackets accurately describe the situation. The jacket has a real cost and to spread that cost over the profit made from two subscriptions is reasonable.
How about this...say you get a notice in the mail from your local cable/phone company for HSI @ $25/month. They offer the ability to hookup a single computer with a 150GB/month cap and if you go over, you'll be charged $10 for additional chunks of 75GB. For an additional $20/month you get a 300GB cap and the privilege of adding a second computer.
Regardless of how you word it, most folks would think this is a pretty crappy deal. They would see the additional $20 as a second PC fee and not equate it getting twice the bandwidth since if they used 300GB on the single PC plan, they would get charged the same amount. There's no "deal" here. It's more like extortion.
The electric, water and sewer companies are metered and they don't give a hoot about how many outlets, faucets or toilets you hookup to their service.
AT&T wants it both ways. They want to meter the service and charge extra fees to make their service more useful. I seem to recall the phone company doing the same thing many years ago. Remember when they used to charge extra for a second line in your house? I believe they used to monitor the ringer current draw to catch folks that added their own extension. Remember when touch tone dialing was extra? Remember when call waiting and all those other features were extra?
To me, it just like old times. All that FTC effort in 90s was a waste of time. Ma Bell is almost like Lord Voldemort. She just won't die. | |
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| | | | Reviews:
·Mediacom
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: I really don't get why Karl continues to lie in stories I hear you. What I would say is it's one thing to say it's a crappy deal, it's another to say it's something it isn't.
By the way here's an update on what Lord Voldemort is up to, now that Harry Potter is over:
»teamcoco.com/video/lord-voldemor···o-normal | |
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| Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Mediacom
·T-Mobile US
| said by MyDogHsFleas:Seriously, I am wasting too much time here for this kind of ridiculously biased reporting. It's actually worse than ridiculously biased. It's intentionally deceptive, and pandering to a stupid audience who laps it up and doesn't bother checking the actual facts.
Agree. I am gonna stop following dslreports seriously and just look at cnet.com or other tech media outlets. Dslreports is not a real news, its news blog. Anybody can contribute anything they want, anybody can write there anything they like. Its like with wikipidia or blogspot.
Notice in the US, only companies that charge premium and earn large profits, get away with growing their network and services, unlike those who compete on price. Consumers are important but so important are shareholders, business partners, governent/enterprise contracts and executive leaders that bring company large profits, lead company's long term strategies and do acquisitions.
Of course, that does not mean I wanna see ATT acquire t-mobile. From this is supposed to protect from us government, courts, fcc and people who backlash. You expect greed to protect US from merger? Everyone wants profits. Rich and higher rich middle class top 20% own 93 % of country's wealth. More than 50% in taxes comes from rich. Its tough and most politicians won't simply just jump to bitting feeding hands. Even less so in this economy with large debt and uncontrolled spending. | |
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